Utah Conservation permits

N

Nbhunter2

Guest
Utah Conservation permits

Take a good long look on the UDWR website at the number Conservation permits there are. Each and every one of them lessen your chance of ever drawing a limited entry or once in a lifetime tag. Look close at the numbers of the very best tags and realize you will likely never get to hunt them in Utah.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

UT takes care of the special interests. The boys getting the checks stuffed in their suit pockets love giving away the public's tags. If it ain't nailed down then is quietly being shopped for a buyer. If you going to go for it then go big. Congrats!
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Yep!!!!! But, if you happen to have a extra 10K just lieing around. I am sure their are some nice folks that would like to "HOOK" you up!!!
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>UT takes care of the special
>interests. The boys getting the
>checks stuffed in their suit
>pockets love giving away the
>public's tags. If it ain't
>nailed down then is quietly
>being shopped for a buyer.
>If you going to go
>for it then go big.
>Congrats!


I hope you dont mind "Outdoors", but there needs to be a slight correction to your statement. Sorry!! They are giving no public tags away!! They are allowing you to bid/purchase them at banquets!! Or, allowing you to have a chance to win one for a $5 fee. Nothing is done without cost or profit!! Have a great day friend!!))
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

In Utah we buy the tags from the DWR for our conservation group. We then auction the highest priced ones to our friends at our banquets on the phone. Later in the year we guide them for large profits. All the time telling the sportsman we are not taking tags away from them
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-13 AT 04:26PM (MST)[p]FWIW, here's the math for the number of tags "taken" from the public pool in 2012. (2013 total tag numbers aren't up yet and they may be quite different, but you get the general idea.) The Regular draw number includes the Sportsmans tags and the percentages are for the total number of tags. Also Reg=Regular DWR Draw, Expo=Convention Permits, Cons=Conservation (auctioned) Permits.

LE Deer - Reg, 1,212; Expo, 28 (2.2%); Cons, 27 (2.1%)

Prem LE Deer - Reg, 270; Expo, 11 (3.8%); Cons, 10 (3.4%)

LE Elk - Reg, 2,997; Expo, 81 (2.6%); Cons, 82 (2.6%)

Prem LE Elk - Reg, 89; Expo, 0 (0%); Cons, 33 (27.3%)

LE Pronghorn - Reg, 715; Expo, 18 (2.3%); Cons, 40 5.2%

OIL Moose - Reg, 121; Expo, 6 (4.4%); Cons, 8 (5.9%)

OIL Bison - Reg, 61; Expo, 4 (5.8%); Cons, 4 (5.8%)

OIL Des BH - Reg, 42; Expo, 2 (4.0%); Cons, 6 (12.0%)

OIL RM BH - Reg, 35; Expo, 3 (7.0%); Cons, 5 (11.6%)

OIL RM Goat - Reg, 166; Expo, 4 (2.2%); Cons, 7 (4.0%)

I've heard some argue that these tags are less than 1% of the total tags, but they lump ALL tags, including general draw and OTC tags into that number. That may be true, but as one who has 13 moose points, I'm not real happy about the removal of 10.3% of the total moose tags to go into these programs that basically lock me out. Yes, I know I could drive 520 miles to validate my application, but it isn't worth the 1 in 2,536 odds of getting the tag, especially when I'll be at the top of the point pool for the hunt I apply for in a couple of years. And the LE Deer odds (1 in 1,110), Prem Deer odds (1 in 2,072), Bull Elk odds (1 in 1,224), Bison odds (1 in 4,482), Desert Bighorn odds (1 in 4,456), Rocky Mountain Bighorn odds (1 in 4,149) or Rocky Mountain Goat odds (1 in 2,625) aren't much better, if at all.
The Pronghorn odds are "only' 1 in 377, but for me that's about 100 times the odds of drawing in the regular hunt and all I have to do is walk downstairs to the computer which isn't even 520 inches, let alone 520 miles. I'm afraid you folks are going to have to deal with my absence at the Expo this year. I hope you can handle it like you did last year (and the year before, etc.).

And as far as the Conservation permit auctions go, I guess I'll have to miss those too. After spending 7 days with most of my kids and grandkids in Disneyland a couple of weeks ago, I just can't seem to talk my wife into forking out the same amount of money for one of those dam* tags, let alone 10 or 20 times that much. You'll have to do without me there too, I'm afraid. But you're used to it, I'm sure, after 20+ years of my absence.

Well, carry on and I'll see you on the mountain (or not).! And good luck in the draw(s)/auctions/CWMU tag sales/landowner tag sales/and soon to inherit tags or however you get your tags.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Keep on waiting for your gubmint welfare tag. Hopefully the state will get smart and start auctioning %100 of the tags so ALL of the public has an equal chance to purchase one.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

The deep/dark secret of this is the devil in the details. The percentage of Special Interest Tags from the Hardest-to-Draw units is much higher than these percentages. 50% of the Antelope Island Deer tags are Special Interest, 27.3% of Premium Limited Entry Elk tags are Special Interest, etc...

See the post from a few weeks ago about "No More Pahvant Elk Tags at the Expo" for some more information/numbers.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-13 AT 08:45PM (MST)[p]>Keep on waiting for your gubmint
>welfare tag. Hopefully the
>state will get smart and
>start auctioning %100 of the
>tags so ALL of the
>public has an equal chance
>to purchase one.

Marvelous idea! Why didn't I think of it? I really shouldn't use that money to go to Disneyland with my grandkids anyway. I'll get the process rolling!
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-13 AT 09:25AM (MST)[p]
>I hope you dont mind "Outdoors",
>but there needs to be
>a slight correction to your
>statement. Sorry!! They are giving
>no public tags away!! They
>are allowing you to bid/purchase
>them at banquets!! Or, allowing
>you to have a chance
>to win one for a
>$5 fee. Nothing is done
>without cost or profit!! Have
>a great day friend!!))

If this re-allocation is fair since cost/profit is there...why have a public draw at all any more? Auction them all or distribute them all at the Expo. Do you support ending the public draw? Why not? Cost/profit increases if use eBay to auction all Utah tags. I guess fair depends on if you support Teddy Roosevelt or Donald Trump.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>Keep on waiting for your gubmint
>welfare tag. Hopefully the
>state will get smart and
>start auctioning %100 of the
>tags so ALL of the
>public has an equal chance
>to purchase one.


AND in walks the dipShiit. Just curious there, Prostate...is THIS your SFW preacher bible?

http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm

There are certainly a lot of similarities with YOUR methods and those listed by Alinsky. Just curious. Oh and its 100%, not %100. But that's another one of your "methods" isn't it?
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>If this re-allocation is fair since
>cost/profit is there...why have a
>public draw at all any
>more?

Hell if I know.

Auction them all or
>distribute them all at the
>Expo. Do you support ending
>the public draw?

I do

Why not?
>Cost/profit increases if use eBay
>to auction all Utah tags.

That's right. It's time for the wildlife departments pay their way and the beasts to supply the money.

>I guess fair depends on
>if you support Teddy Roosevelt
>or Donald Trump.

Fair is A pointless proposal in this discussion.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>Marvelous idea! Why didn't I think
>of it? I really shouldn't
> use that money to
>go to Disneyland with my
>grandkids anyway. I'll get the
>process rolling!

A chance at a deer tag is no more a right to you , than a trip to disneynland is a right to little kids. Sometimes you have to prioritize and make decisions that are tough. I am sorry you are just now discovering the facts of life.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>
>
>AND in walks the dipShiit.
>Just curious there, Prostate...is THIS
>your SFW preacher bible?
>
>http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm
>
>There are certainly a lot of
>similarities with YOUR methods and
>those listed by Alinsky.
> Just curious. Oh
>and its 100%, not %100.
> But that's another one
>of your "methods" isn't it?
>

So why would a book written for Marxists be a bible for someone pushing a capitalist agenda? You don't think about your arguments much do you. You actually are too stupid to realize the entire foundation of NACM is closer to socialism and Marxism aND THAT IS WHY IT IS FAILING!
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>
>>
>>
>>AND in walks the dipShiit.
>>Just curious there, Prostate...is THIS
>>your SFW preacher bible?
>>
>>http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm
>>
>>There are certainly a lot of
>>similarities with YOUR methods and
>>those listed by Alinsky.
>> Just curious. Oh
>>and its 100%, not %100.
>> But that's another one
>>of your "methods" isn't it?
>>
>
>So why would a book written
>for Marxists be a bible
>for someone pushing a capitalist
>agenda? You don't think
>about your arguments much do
>you. You actually are
>too stupid to realize the
>entire foundation of NACM is
>closer to socialism and Marxism
>aND THAT IS WHY IT
>IS FAILING!

Another method from your bible, figures. From the book:

7. Tactics
"Tactics are those conscious deliberate acts by which human beings live with each other and deal with the world around them. ... Here our concern is with the tactic of taking; how the Have-Nots can take power away from the Haves." p.126

Always remember the first rule of power tactics (pps.127-134):

1. "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have."

2. "Never go outside the expertise of your people. When an action or tactic is outside the experience of the people, the result is confusion, fear and retreat.... [and] the collapse of communication.

3. "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity."

5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."

6. "A good tactic is one your people enjoy."

7. "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time...."

8. "Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose."

9. "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself."

10. "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this unceasing pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign."

11. "If you push a negative hard and deep enough, it will break through into its counterside... every positive has its negative."

12. "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."

13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'..."...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...'"One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other."

Too bad for you, Prostate, that there are too many who think you're more a bozo than ME! Have a great evening, hand puppet.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-13 AT 10:26PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-13 AT 10:22?PM (MST)

>
>>Marvelous idea! Why didn't I think
>>of it? I really shouldn't
>> use that money to
>>go to Disneyland with my
>>grandkids anyway. I'll get the
>>process rolling!
>
>A chance at a deer tag
>is no more a right
>to you , than a
>trip to disneynland is a
>right to little kids.
>Sometimes you have to prioritize
>and make decisions that
>are tough. I am
>sorry you are just now
>discovering the facts of life.
>

I too am sorry it took so long (71 years) to learn the facts of life! I'll have to get started teaching those 15 rug rats that they'll have to get started earning their own money for next time or they won't have enough for their share of the gas to get down there and back, for their share of the motel bill, for the $50 per day tickets, for treats and for any souveniers they might want. Wow, that would save me a lot of money and I could probably get a doe tag out of it. In fact, if I prioritized it right, I probably wouldn't even go down there myself and then I could get a buck tag every year or an elk tag every 10 years or a sheep tag every 20 or 25 years. Man, what was I thinking?

Edited: I got to thinking about it and I would have no concerns about the 4 teenagers earning the money, but the younger ones, age 2 to 10, might have a harder time of it. Ya got any jobs for a hard working 2 year old who's willin' to learn the facts of life?
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

You might be able to classify it as capitalism. I would classify it as a monarchy. The kings game. The noblemen and gentry only. FWIW, I do believe that leaves out the common man. I am from New Mexico. Sadly, that point of view is slowly creeping its way down here. I hate to say it.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"Too bad for you, Prostate, that there are too many who think you're more a bozo than ME! Have a great evening, hand puppet."


So this is a popularity contest for you is it? I'm not that worried about it myself. Maybe this is a side effect for you never winning Homecoming Queen.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"You might be able to classify it as capitalism. I would classify it as a monarchy. The kings game. The noblemen and gentry only. FWIW, I do believe that leaves out the common man. I am from New Mexico. Sadly, that point of view is slowly creeping its way down here. I hate to say it."

In a monarchy blood decides who are the haves and the have nots. With Capitalism currency decides who are the haves and have nots. Never has anyon been deined a bid on any of these tags because of race, sex, or religion. Your children have just as much chance within this nation to grow up and make as much or more money than my children which they can spend as they see fit. That is as far from a monarchy as imaginable.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"I too am sorry it took so long (71 years) to learn the facts of life! I'll have to get started teaching those 15 rug rats that they'll have to get started earning their own money for next time or they won't have enough for their share of the gas to get down there and back, for their share of the motel bill, for the $50 per day tickets, for treats and for any souveniers they might want. Wow, that would save me a lot of money and I could probably get a doe tag out of it. In fact, if I prioritized it right, I probably wouldn't even go down there myself and then I could get a buck tag every year or an elk tag every 10 years or a sheep tag every 20 or 25 years. Man, what was I thinking?

Edited: I got to thinking about it and I would have no concerns about the 4 teenagers earning the money, but the younger ones, age 2 to 10, might have a harder time of it. Ya got any jobs for a hard working 2 year old who's willin' to learn the facts of life?"


Quit being such a pansy and take the kids to Disneyland. If the decision is that hard for you whether to go hunting or spend time with grandkids I feel sorry for you. As for hooking a 2 year old up with a job I think thats a little early but my 3 year old has allready learned life isn't fair and she better not cry about it. Apparently you missed that lesson 68 years ago.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

I bet you won HOME COMING QUEEN! You act like it!

Give it up tripstate, your comments are lame and always you argue with others on here. It gets old and fast. Do you not see you have 0 friends on here because of the way you always argue?

GIVE UP!!!!!!!!
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Maybe that is why the mule deer is taking a beating. You are more worried about making friends than helping wildlife. Or maybe "giving up" is an option at your house.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>"Too bad for you, Prostate, that
>there are too many who
>think you're more a bozo
>than ME! Have a great
>evening, hand puppet."
>
>
>So this is a popularity contest
>for you is it?
>I'm not that worried about
>it myself. Maybe this
>is a side effect for
>you never winning Homecoming Queen.
>

Also from Alinky's book, er, your playbook:


-ego ("reaching for the highest level for which man can reach ? to create, to be a 'great creator,' to play God"),

-curiosity (raising "questions that agitate, that break through the accepted pattern"),

-irreverence ("nothing is sacred"; the organizer "detests dogma, defies any finite definition of morality"),
imagination ("the fuel for the force that keeps an organizer organizing"),

-a sense of humor ("the most potent weapons known to mankind are satire and ridicule"), and an

-organized personality with confidence in presenting the right reason for his actions only "as a moral rationalization after the right end has been achieved.'...

At least you're consistently an A$$. That is something I guess.

YOUR COMMENT:

In a monarchy blood decides who are the haves and the have nots. With Capitalism currency decides who are the haves and have nots. Never has anyon been deined a bid on any of these tags because of race, sex, or religion. Your children have just as much chance within this nation to grow up and make as much or more money than my children which they can spend as they see fit. That is as far from a monarchy as imaginable.

So you DID read the book? This is the dumbest damned statement I've ever read. I'm starting to believe, since you have zero substance, fact, sources, or credibility...not to mention your math sucks when you attempt it, that you're all of 10 years old. That would make sense too. I don't pick on kids so I'll stop in this thread. Interesting again that you only pop up on anything that has to do with the expo....guessing you're not going to be there to validate your "bids" or "entries".....me neither.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"So you DID read the book?"

Come again?

" This is the dumbest damned statement I've ever read."

Which statement, and hows that?

" I'm starting to believe, since you have zero substance, fact, sources, or credibility...not to mention your math sucks when you attempt it, that you're all of 10 years old."

Read above. Everything I posted was the truth and there was no math.

" That would make sense too."

What?

" I don't pick on kids so I'll stop in this thread."

But you don't so I asume you are a liar.

" Interesting again that you only pop up on anything that has to do with the expo"

Yep. Now you just tell lies. On this forum right now I am in another discussion about an appointee to the RMEF board.

"....guessing you're not going to be there to validate your "bids" or "entries".....me neither."

Is this english? Are you wanting me to answer a question? Are you on drugs?
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

tripstate,

your right. I am worried about making friends. I like having friends. You should try it. Its nice. We go hunting together, fishing together, picnics together, camping together, pic flowers together, service projects together, sleep together, share stuff with another, help each other, teach each other, watch out for one another, give rides to one another, and the list could go on.

Stop being an idiot.

But back to the expo, It is interesting how many premium tags are NOT available to the $5 applicants, but A LOT to the highest bidder. I know, it gets old but I do believe it is a rich mans sport more and more.

Why dont they auction off 6-10 of the antelope tags, and put some of the premium tags back into the draw? I know, its $$$. Dumb question.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-13 AT 11:06AM (MST)[p]So, money rules, period! And how does that ultimately play out to the benefit of the deer herds? Or, for that matter, wildlife in general? In other words, give us your synopsis of the ideal world of the hunting, fishing, harvesting and viewing of wildlife.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"So, money rules, period! And how does that ultimately play out to the benefit of the deer herds? Or, for that matter, wildlife in general? In other words, give us your synopsis of the ideal world of the hunting, fishing, harvesting and viewing of wildlife."


Excellent question. When state agencies realize that a deer is worth $10,000 instead of the $400 they have been charging for the tag they start realizing how the fiscal problems of the state wildlife agencies can be solved through the worth of the game within its boundaries. As the state realizes that the game is a profitable resource instead of a headache then they put 2 and 2 together and realize if they can make or promote more of the resource then they can make even more money. So you get state agencies with both a long term fiscal solution and long term conservation solution because the game's value is fully utillized. Once states are dealing in profiting from the game and they increase conservation efforts to increase their profit then your population can increase and you have more opportunity that you have now. Nations all over the world are using this as a basis for wildlife conservation and development and it is working. So yes money rules. If you don't think the price of deer tags right now are silly let me ask you two questions and you compare the answer. How much is a LE mule deer tag where you want to hunt? If you go to that unit and are caught poaching a deer there what is the compinsation to the state then?
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"But back to the expo, It is interesting how many premium tags are NOT available to the $5 applicants, but A LOT to the highest bidder. I know, it gets old but I do believe it is a rich mans sport more and more."

Please get rich and keep hunting. Now stop being an idiot.

"Why dont they auction off 6-10 of the antelope tags, and put some of the premium tags back into the draw? I know, its $$$. Dumb question."

Why don't they auction off all of the antelope tags and put back nothing into the draw????
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>
>>Marvelous idea! Why didn't I think
>>of it? I really shouldn't
>> use that money to
>>go to Disneyland with my
>>grandkids anyway. I'll get the
>>process rolling!
>
>A chance at a deer tag
>is no more a right
>to you , than a
>trip to disneynland is a
>right to little kids.
>Sometimes you have to prioritize
>and make decisions that
>are tough. I am
>sorry you are just now
>discovering the facts of life.
>


Again Trollstate, go back to the nirvana that is Texas, hunting in this state is a birthright. Remember, if the public tags go away, so does the gobment welfare for the landowners. No more repairations, no more payments, etc. Their is a price for independence, in Utah it has worked WELL, UNTIL SFW, and the CWMU's, before then you could ask persmission, pay a lease, or trespass fee. Once the special interests got involved, the game changed. We are now coming to understand the cancer, and at the end of SFW's contract, we will cut it out, then we can see how much SFW takes care of wildlife in the state without their gobment cheese.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>"So, money rules, period! And how
>does that ultimately play out
>to the benefit of the
>deer herds? Or, for that
>matter, wildlife in general? In
>other words, give us your
>synopsis of the ideal world
>of the hunting, fishing, harvesting
>and viewing of wildlife."
>
>
>Excellent question. When state agencies
>realize that a deer is
>worth $10,000 instead of the
>$400 they have been charging
>for the tag they start
>realizing how the fiscal problems
>of the state wildlife agencies
>can be solved through the
>worth of the game within
>its boundaries. As the
>state realizes that the game
>is a profitable resource instead
>of a headache then they
>put 2 and 2 together
>and realize if they can
>make or promote more of
>the resource then they can
>make even more money.
>So you get state agencies
>with both a long term
>fiscal solution and long term
>conservation solution because the game's
>value is fully utillized.
>Once states are dealing in
>profiting from the game and
>they increase conservation efforts to
>increase their profit then your
>population can increase and you
>have more opportunity that you
>have now. Nations all
>over the world are using
>this as a basis for
>wildlife conservation and development and
>it is working. So
>yes money rules. If
>you don't think the price
>of deer tags right now
>are silly let me ask
>you two questions and you
>compare the answer. How
>much is a LE mule
>deer tag where you want
>to hunt? If you
>go to that unit and
>are caught poaching a deer
>there what is the compinsation
>to the state then?
>
>
First off, how does having to pay $10,000 for a tag provide me with MORE opportunity than I have paying for a $400 tag no matter how many $10,000 tags we throw out there?

Second, I've NEVER in my life paid $400 for a mule deer tag and don't intend to. Your assumption is that most Utah deer hunters are like your customers and are willing to pay the same amount of money for the hunt and the mount as the hunters you see every day in your shop, but that just isn't the case. I can see why a taxidermist would think the majority of hunters are always (and only) after a monster because that's who they most associate with, but that just isn't the way it is. Inches don't drive my passion for hunting and that's true of most of the hunters I know. I'll certainly take a big one if I have the chance (and I have), but I will never eat a tag if I can help it.

Which brings me to my third point. You're putting the price of a hunt on the animal, but a hunt is much more than that. Most of my memorable hunts were with average or small (or even no) animals harvested. They were trophies because of the adventure associated with them, not the size of the antlers/horns.

Fouth, as you've indicted (and chided me regarding), your vision of the ideal hunting system would force me to make a choice between Disneyland and hunting. My vision and the current system does not. I can (and do) enjoy both. Why would I want that changed, especially when there's no additional benefit to wildlife?

Which brings us to five. You view the current system as a major reason for the decline of mule deer in Utah and the west and that by throwing more money into the mix we will be able to fix the problem(s). Neither one of those views is the truth. While mule deer and moose are declining in Utah, elk are on the rise, pronghorn numbers are stable, and Bighorn sheep, bison and Mountain goats are also on the rise and are being moved to new places all the time, all under the same system. Regarding the mule deer decline, the reasons are varied and complex, including some that we cannot control no matter how much money we throw at them, (weather, natural fires, mule deer behavior, human encroachment) and others that we don't yet have a handle on (cheatgrass and other invasive plants, CWD, highway deaths, deer and elk competition, decline of aspen, coyotes), and still others that require more manpower than money, (overbrowsed winter range, pinion/juniper encroachment, burned habitat requiring reseeding). Money isn't always the answer!

Six; Your system would likely negate some, if not all, of the revenue currently received by our DWR. The $7.00+ retained per application is gone. And if I couldn't bid on a permit, why would I buy a hunting license? In fact, if I could bid on a permit, why would I allow that extra charge? Also, if the DWR became even more self sufficient, why would our legislators continue allowing them to draw from the general funds? In fact, they could be over the budget set by the legislators (hunters and non-hunters alike) and would have to return some of it back to the general funds. Also what about federal funds which are based on the number of permits and/or licenses sold? All of these current funds, added to the dollar-impacted decisions of the Wildlife Board, play into the designated budget, so it's not like our DWR can just do whatever they choose to do with any money they receive.

Finally; Your system is based solely on monetary values which constantly change (gallon of gas, anyone?) and on a commodity (wildlife) that can't be shelved, stockpiled or controlled and any economic decline would highly impact your system because fewer people would be willing (or able) to participate. If I have a choice between hunting (legally) or paying the light bill, guess which I'll choose? (Yea, forget Disnyeland.)

Idealistic? Maybe. Realistic? Never!
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Tristate, you're definitely not someone I would care to meet or have a beer with. Not very impressed with your tact. Have a good day and I hope to never meet you or anyone like you. Take care.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Deer numbers and hunting opportunities were declining in your state before SFW ever got in the picture and you know it.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"First off, how does having to pay $10,000 for a tag provide me with MORE opportunity than I have paying for a $400 tag no matter how many $10,000 tags we throw out there?"

You are being short sighted. The state makes more money off of the deer tag which in turn is spent on conservation efforts to increase deer populations and increase tag availibility.

"Second, I've NEVER in my life paid $400 for a mule deer tag and don't intend to. Your assumption is that most Utah deer hunters are like your customers and are willing to pay the same amount of money for the hunt and the mount as the hunters you see every day in your shop, but that just isn't the case. I can see why a taxidermist would think the majority of hunters are always (and only) after a monster because that's who they most associate with, but that just isn't the way it is. Inches don't drive my passion for hunting and that's true of most of the hunters I know. I'll certainly take a big one if I have the chance (and I have), but I will never eat a tag if I can help it."

So by saying you get the tag even cheaper than $400 you prove my point even more that the tags are being sold for too little money.

"Which brings me to my third point. You're putting the price of a hunt on the animal, but a hunt is much more than that. Most of my memorable hunts were with average or small (or even no) animals harvested. They were trophies because of the adventure associated with them, not the size of the antlers/horns."

Fantastic! You just admitted to the point that when the state gives away a tag they are not giving away a public resource they are giving away a permit to hunt. You haven't admitted that for months so you could keep complaining about SFW "stealing".

"Fouth, as you've indicted (and chided me regarding), your vision of the ideal hunting system would force me to make a choice between Disneyland and hunting. My vision and the current system does not. I can (and do) enjoy both. Why would I want that changed, especially when there's no additional benefit to wildlife?"

Youy change because there is a benefit to it and at the current pace your selfishness will not allow your grandchildren an opportunity to hunt. Hope they like disneyland, cause grandpa wanted hunting for himself and didn't give a damn if they get to.

"Which brings us to five. You view the current system as a major reason for the decline of mule deer in Utah and the west and that by throwing more money into the mix we will be able to fix the problem(s). Neither one of those views is the truth. While mule deer and moose are declining in Utah, elk are on the rise, pronghorn numbers are stable, and Bighorn sheep, bison and Mountain goats are also on the rise and are being moved to new places all the time, all under the same system. Regarding the mule deer decline, the reasons are varied and complex, including some that we cannot control no matter how much money we throw at them, (weather, natural fires, mule deer behavior, human encroachment) and others that we don't yet have a handle on (cheatgrass and other invasive plants, CWD, highway deaths, deer and elk competition, decline of aspen, coyotes), and still others that require more manpower than money, (overbrowsed winter range, pinion/juniper encroachment, burned habitat requiring reseeding). Money isn't always the answer!"

Your DNR is teatering on bankrupcy. YOU NEED MORE MONEY! There isn't one single problem facing the mule deer in the west that can't be fought with brains and money. You sir have neither.

"Six; Your system would likely negate some, if not all, of the revenue currently received by our DWR. The $7.00+ retained per application is gone. And if I couldn't bid on a permit, why would I buy a hunting license? In fact, if I could bid on a permit, why would I allow that extra charge? Also, if the DWR became even more self sufficient, why would our legislators continue allowing them to draw from the general funds? In fact, they could be over the budget set by the legislators (hunters and non-hunters alike) and would have to return some of it back to the general funds. Also what about federal funds which are based on the number of permits and/or licenses sold? All of these current funds, added to the dollar-impacted decisions of the Wildlife Board, play into the designated budget, so it's not like our DWR can just do whatever they choose to do with any money they receive."

I know. Thats why you need more money. If everyone wants a slice of your pie but you want more pie, YOU MAKE YOUR PIE BIGGER!

"Finally; Your system is based solely on monetary values which constantly change (gallon of gas, anyone?) and on a commodity (wildlife) that can't be shelved, stockpiled or controlled and any economic decline would highly impact your system because fewer people would be willing (or able) to participate. If I have a choice between hunting (legally) or paying the light bill, guess which I'll choose? (Yea, forget Disnyeland.)"

You worry about an economic decline? This system works in entire nations that have a GDP less than your whole state.

"Idealistic? Maybe. Realistic? Never!"

Shortsighted? ALWAYS!
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"Tristate, you're definitely not someone I would care to meet or have a beer with. Not very impressed with your tact. Have a good day and I hope to never meet you or anyone like you. Take care."

Keep that frame of mind and you and the guys you do want to have a beer with can sit around talking about back when there were mule deer to hunt.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>"First off, how does having to
>pay $10,000 for a tag
>provide me with MORE opportunity
>than I have paying for
>a $400 tag no matter
>how many $10,000 tags we
>throw out there?"
>
>You are being short sighted.
>The state makes more money
>off of the deer tag
>which in turn is spent
>on conservation efforts to increase
>deer populations and increase tag
>availibility.
>
>"Second, I've NEVER in my life
>paid $400 for a mule
>deer tag and don't intend
>to. Your assumption is that
>most Utah deer hunters are
>like your customers and are
>willing to pay the same
>amount of money for the
>hunt and the mount as
>the hunters you see every
>day in your shop, but
>that just isn't the case.
>I can see why a
>taxidermist would think the majority
>of hunters are always (and
>only) after a monster because
>that's who they most associate
>with, but that just isn't
>the way it is. Inches
>don't drive my passion for
>hunting and that's true of
>most of the hunters I
>know. I'll certainly take a
>big one if I have
>the chance (and I have),
>but I will never eat
>a tag if I can
>help it."
>
>So by saying you get the
>tag even cheaper than $400
>you prove my point even
>more that the tags are
>being sold for too little
>money.
>
>"Which brings me to my third
>point. You're putting the price
>of a hunt on the
>animal, but a hunt is
>much more than that. Most
>of my memorable hunts were
>with average or small (or
>even no) animals harvested. They
>were trophies because of the
>adventure associated with them, not
>the size of the antlers/horns."
>
>
>Fantastic! You just admitted to
>the point that when the
>state gives away a tag
>they are not giving away
>a public resource they are
>giving away a permit to
>hunt. You haven't admitted
>that for months so you
>could keep complaining about SFW
>"stealing".
>
>"Fouth, as you've indicted (and chided
>me regarding), your vision of
>the ideal hunting system would
>force me to make a
>choice between Disneyland and hunting.
>My vision and the current
>system does not. I can
>(and do) enjoy both. Why
>would I want that changed,
>especially when there's no additional
>benefit to wildlife?"
>
>Youy change because there is a
>benefit to it and at
>the current pace your selfishness
>will not allow your grandchildren
>an opportunity to hunt.
>Hope they like disneyland, cause
>grandpa wanted hunting for himself
>and didn't give a damn
>if they get to.
>
>"Which brings us to five. You
>view the current system as
>a major reason for the
>decline of mule deer in
>Utah and the west and
>that by throwing more money
>into the mix we will
>be able to fix the
>problem(s). Neither one of those
>views is the truth. While
>mule deer and moose are
>declining in Utah, elk are
>on the rise, pronghorn numbers
>are stable, and Bighorn sheep,
>bison and Mountain goats are
>also on the rise and
>are being moved to new
>places all the time, all
>under the same system. Regarding
>the mule deer decline, the
>reasons are varied and complex,
>including some that we cannot
>control no matter how much
>money we throw at them,
>(weather, natural fires, mule deer
>behavior, human encroachment) and others
>that we don't yet have
>a handle on (cheatgrass and
>other invasive plants, CWD, highway
>deaths, deer and elk competition,
>decline of aspen, coyotes), and
>still others that require more
>manpower than money, (overbrowsed winter
>range, pinion/juniper encroachment, burned habitat
>requiring reseeding). Money isn't always
>the answer!"
>
>Your DNR is teatering on bankrupcy.
> YOU NEED MORE MONEY!
> There isn't one single
>problem facing the mule deer
>in the west that can't
>be fought with brains and
>money. You sir have
>neither.
>
>"Six; Your system would likely negate
>some, if not all, of
>the revenue currently received by
>our DWR. The $7.00+ retained
>per application is gone. And
>if I couldn't bid on
>a permit, why would I
>buy a hunting license? In
>fact, if I could bid
>on a permit, why would
>I allow that extra charge?
>Also, if the DWR became
>even more self sufficient, why
>would our legislators continue allowing
>them to draw from the
>general funds? In fact, they
>could be over the budget
>set by the legislators (hunters
>and non-hunters alike) and would
>have to return some of
>it back to the general
>funds. Also what about federal
>funds which are based on
>the number of permits and/or
>licenses sold? All of these
>current funds, added to the
>dollar-impacted decisions of the Wildlife
>Board, play into the designated
>budget, so it's not like
>our DWR can just do
>whatever they choose to do
>with any money they receive."
>
>
>I know. Thats why you
>need more money. If
>everyone wants a slice of
>your pie but you want
>more pie, YOU MAKE YOUR
>PIE BIGGER!
>
>"Finally; Your system is based solely
>on monetary values which constantly
>change (gallon of gas, anyone?)
>and on a commodity (wildlife)
>that can't be shelved, stockpiled
>or controlled and any economic
>decline would highly impact your
>system because fewer people would
>be willing (or able) to
>participate. If I have a
>choice between hunting (legally) or
>paying the light bill, guess
>which I'll choose? (Yea, forget
>Disnyeland.)"
>
>You worry about an economic decline?
> This system works in
>entire nations that have a
>GDP less than your whole
>state.
>
>"Idealistic? Maybe. Realistic? Never!"
>
>Shortsighted? ALWAYS!

You miss and/or ignore the point and/or make false claims in every one of your responses and have now resorted to personal insults in an attempt to reel me into a shouting match. I'm sorry, but I don't do that. I'm open to a GOOD debate, but an insulting, name-calling shouting match is a waste of my time and is counterproductive. I'll just refer you and the readers to some websites that show how well your trophy/money based system works for the huemul in Argentina and Chile. Meanwhile, I'll continue to go to the local Regional Advisory Council and State Wildlife Board meetings to state my case and will continue to assist the DWR in mule deer recovery efforts which includes transplanting does, lop and scatter pinyon/juniper encroached winter range, bitterbrush seed planting, highway escape ramp renovations, guzzler building and maintanance, etc. I may not have the money (or brains), but I still have two good hands.

www.tierramerica.net/english/2005/0730/iarticulo.shtml
www.wildworldadventures.com/hunting-south-america/
www.publish.csiro.au/nid/72/paper/AN10237.htm
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

I for one am glad the Expo gives me a chance to actually apply for all the species. Without those tags my chances of drawing would be zero. That is just a fact for any Utah resident.

And I also dont get a cent for helping with several conservation tags. However me and my boys will have a ball chasing bulls on the Pahvant this year helping and indivual that has chose to put more dollars into the DWRs bank account then I will ever be able to do and more than probably all that have posted on this post will combined over a lifetime.

Thank you to those that choose to put their money toward the future of our hunting heritage.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Thankyou for posting those links. The first link is a propoganda pitch for anti-hunters. Why am I not amazed you posted it. It is the same problem that is facing the african lion right now. Most places where the cats are legaly hunted they are flurishing. Everywhere else they are a pest and they get whiped out. Either way rags like the one you posted decide to blame hunters.

As for the second link I am sorry but it will not open for me so I can not comment.

The third post is about a specie that was pushed to the edge of extinction before any modern conservation practices had even been thought about so it really doesn't apply to this arguement.

If you want to look up info on international hunting saving species maybe do some surches on Markhor, both black and white rhino, and the african elephant. These are just a couple of examples.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Muley 73,

I hope you get your tag one day and I hope a giant bull is in your future. Good luck out there.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-13 AT 12:03PM (MST)[p]>I for one am glad the
>Expo gives me a chance
>to actually apply for all
>the species. Without those
>tags my chances of drawing
>would be zero. That
>is just a fact for
>any Utah resident.
>
>And I also dont get a
>cent for helping with several
>conservation tags. However me
>and my boys will have
>a ball chasing bulls on
>the Pahvant this year helping
>and indivual that has chose
>to put more dollars into
>the DWRs bank account then
>I will ever be able
>to do and more than
>probably all that have posted
>on this post will combined
>over a lifetime.
>
>Thank you to those that choose
>to put their money toward
>the future of our hunting
>heritage.


So you're going out to guide with your boys with some high roller and doing it all for free huh?!!! I think the following post hit it about as good as anybody could:

Nbhunter2 (11 posts)
Feb-16-13, 09:55 AM (MST)
5. "RE: Utah Conservation permits"
In Utah we buy the tags from the DWR for our conservation group. We then auction the highest priced ones to our friends at our banquets on the phone. Later in the year we guide them for large profits. All the time telling the sportsman we are not taking tags away from them
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-13 AT 12:14PM (MST)[p]Top,
Actually a family member decided to buy a tag. It will be an all family afair. We are planning on pulling the trailers down and scouting all summer and having some fun family camping outings. When the hunt rolls around we will as a family all enjoy the hunt and create some great memories.

Those dollars will go to the DWR and they will be spent on helping wildlife in the future.

Its really not all as evil as some of you would like to paint it.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

I just often wonder,...if all attending certain Big Game Banquets here in Utah. Knew, at times, the tags/items were falsely being bid on by individuals who had no intention to purchase the tag or item. Just to get "optium value" out of this item. I dont care what anyone say's, any way you discuss this issue, even with all the good that comes from it, this system is corrupt to the bone!! That is why I dont attend any more Conservation Banquets in this state!!
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-13
>AT 12:14?PM (MST)
>
>Top,
>Actually a family member decided to
>buy a tag. It
>will be an all family
>afair. We are planning
>on pulling the trailers down
>and scouting all summer and
>having some fun family camping
>outings. When the hunt
>rolls around we will as
>a family all enjoy the
>hunt and create some great
>memories.
>
>Those dollars will go to the
>DWR and they will be
>spent on helping wildlife in
>the future.
>
>Its really not all as evil
>as some of you would
>like to paint it.


Mea culpa for completely misconstruing your post!!! That sounds like it will be one heck of a funtime and I hope you guys get a big one.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

The tags should be sold for as much as they possibly can be. That is the point of the Consevation Tags. I have no problem with that. NO I would not like to see all tags go this route but I do support a portion of them for sure. Its money boys, money is what counts, the DWR is not generating it on general tags or draw tags. We should be damn happy some indivuals pony up the big dollars so we are all not paying extra dollars to fund this stuff.

Those dollars are as important to the future of our wildlife as the support from the average joes. Its all needed! All of the support is needed! The jealousy makes me shake my head as much as the conspericy theories make me shake my head!!!! Its all needed and it all has its place, its as simple as that!!!
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-13 AT 05:33PM (MST)[p]Big money equals more free fishing and hunting trips, I just wish the DWR did it all.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>Maybe that is why the mule
>deer is taking a beating.
> You are more worried
>about making friends than helping
>wildlife. Or maybe "giving
>up" is an option at
>your house.

Did I miss something? Are Mule Deer thriving in Texas? If locking up land, and paying out the azz saves mule deer, shouldn't mule deer populations be exploding in Texas?

Yes Mule deer populations were down before SFW, they are still down, despite the million upon millions in welfare SFW sucked up to save them. Only an idiot sees failure and corruption, then gives them more money hoping for a diiferent result.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>The tags should be sold for
>as much as they possibly
>can be. That is
>the point of the Consevation
>Tags. I have no
>problem with that. NO
>I would not like to
>see all tags go this
>route but I do support
>a portion of them for
>sure. Its money boys,
>money is what counts, the
>DWR is not generating it
>on general tags or draw
>tags. We should be
>damn happy some indivuals pony
>up the big dollars so
>we are all not paying
>extra dollars to fund this
>stuff.
>
>Those dollars are as important to
>the future of our wildlife
>as the support from the
>average joes. Its all
>needed! All of the
>support is needed! The
>jealousy makes me shake my
>head as much as the
>conspericy theories make me shake
>my head!!!! Its all
>needed and it all has
>its place, its as simple
>as that!!!

How I wish it were as simple as that! It ALL has it's place for sure, but, unfortunately, one side wants to increase their place while the other side is fighting just to keep theirs. The proposals for change are only coming from one side (unit by unit hunting, loss of statewide archery, increased buck to doe ratios, loss of 6,000 deer permits, $5 increase in fees, and limited fishing access to streams, among others) And most of these proposals (now laws) only benefit the hunters on that side of this "battle" at the expense of the other side, all the while having no benefit to wildlife. These are strickly social changes, not biological.

I'm also happy that they pony up and I applaud them for doing so. What I'm not happy about is their belief that their view (money is what counts) gives them the right to control the system for the rest of us, which ultimately means controlling the system for their benefit! They claim to be champions of family hunting and fishing traditions. If that were so, they would be fighting for my family as much as theirs, but, alas, such is not the case. Which means I'm forced to fight for them myself and that's what I will do until, hopefully, both sides come together for the benefit of families and wildlife and no one loses the battle.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Elkfromabove, I don't know how simple it is but there is what happened at the wildlife board. Unit by unit hunting is now helping the DWR manage the deer better. That is their words. The loss of the statewide archery was a battle. The reason it was lost was partly the hunters from the south region not wanting it and the fact that the muzzle loader hunters as well as the rifle hunters kept saying if we have to pick a unit so do the archery. Their case was that the archery hunters already get more days to hunt. They should not have the right to hunt the whole state. Nothing to do with SFW. SFW also wanted the 6000 permits you say were lost to go to the archery hunters. Not to decrease permits. The $5 increase was SFW's plan. The deer are decreasing and one of the main problems is the coyote. That is a fact. If you do not think coyote control and increasing the deer population is a big factor, talk to the former DWR director of Nevada. Deer population down and coyotes not controlled. Now he has no job.
I know that a lot of people are unhappy with what is going on. I also know that there is a lot of people that are posting things not really knowing what is going on in the wlb meetings. That is why it is important to be in attendance when possible and voice your opinion. Same with the rac meetings. Some say it does no good but the wlb seems to be voting with the majority of what the racs decide.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>>The tags should be sold for
>>as much as they possibly
>>can be. That is
>>the point of the Consevation
>>Tags. I have no
>>problem with that. NO
>>I would not like to
>>see all tags go this
>>route but I do support
>>a portion of them for
>>sure. Its money boys,
>>money is what counts, the
>>DWR is not generating it
>>on general tags or draw
>>tags. We should be
>>damn happy some indivuals pony
>>up the big dollars so
>>we are all not paying
>>extra dollars to fund this
>>stuff.
>>
>>Those dollars are as important to
>>the future of our wildlife
>>as the support from the
>>average joes. Its all
>>needed! All of the
>>support is needed! The
>>jealousy makes me shake my
>>head as much as the
>>conspericy theories make me shake
>>my head!!!! Its all
>>needed and it all has
>>its place, its as simple
>>as that!!!
>
>How I wish it were as
>simple as that! It ALL
>has it's place for sure,
>but, unfortunately, one side wants
>to increase their place while
>the other side is fighting
>just to keep theirs. The
>proposals for change are only
>coming from one side (unit
>by unit hunting, loss of
>statewide archery, increased buck to
>doe ratios, loss of 6,000
>deer permits, $5 increase in
>fees, and limited fishing access
>to streams, among others) And
>most of these proposals (now
>laws) only benefit the hunters
>on that side of this
>"battle" at the expense of
>the other side, all the
>while having no benefit to
>wildlife. These are strickly social
>changes, not biological.
>
>I'm also happy that they pony
>up and I applaud them
>for doing so. What I'm
>not happy about is their
>belief that their view (money
>is what counts) gives them
>the right to control the
>system for the rest of
>us, which ultimately means controlling
>the system for their benefit!
>They claim to be champions
>of family hunting and fishing
>traditions. If that were so,
>they would be fighting for
>my family as much as
>theirs, but, alas, such is
>not the case. Which means
>I'm forced to fight for
>them myself and that's what
>I will do until, hopefully,
>both sides come together for
>the benefit of families and
>wildlife and no one loses
>the battle.


Well said friend,....well said !!
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>Elkfromabove, I don't
>know how simple it is
>but there is what happened
>at the wildlife board.
>Unit by unit hunting is
>now helping the DWR manage
>the deer better. That
>is their words. The
>loss of the statewide archery
>was a battle. The
>reason it was lost was
>partly the hunters from the
>south region not wanting it
>and the fact that the
>muzzle loader hunters as well
>as the rifle hunters kept
>saying if we have to
>pick a unit so do
>the archery. Their case
>was that the archery hunters
>already get more days to
>hunt. They should not
>have the right to hunt
>the whole state. Nothing
>to do with SFW.
>SFW also wanted the 6000
>permits you say were lost
>to go to the archery
>hunters. Not to decrease
>permits. The $5 increase
>was SFW's plan. The
>deer are decreasing and one
>of the main problems is
>the coyote. That is
>a fact. If you
>do not think coyote control
>and increasing the deer population
>is a big factor, talk
>to the former DWR director
>of Nevada. Deer population
>down and coyotes not controlled.
> Now he has no
>job.
> I
>know that a lot of
>people are unhappy with what
>is going on. I
>also know that there is
>a lot of people that
>are posting things not really
>knowing what is going on
>in the wlb meetings.
>That is why it is
>important to be in attendance
>when possible and voice your
>opinion. Same with the
>rac meetings. Some say
>it does no good but
>the wlb seems to be
>voting with the majority of
>what the racs decide.


Uhmmmm, I don't want to pick this one apart. I'll only say both EFA and myself either / or are in attendance at the SOUTHERN RAC. I have no idea who didn't want statewide archery other than it came down to a "fair" issue and a bunch of boobing about the other weapons and blah blah blah. My kids get grounded the second they try and tell me that any decision I make is "unfair". Public pressure is what it amounts to.

Nevada doesn't have a DWR....but that's okay we know what you meant. Here is last year's Nevada Predator Control Plan from NDOW. http://www.ndow.org/about/pubs/brochure/2012_Predator.pdf
The supervisory position for predators in Nevada went unfilled for most of 2011 and 2012 and there are a multitude of other reasons why he lost his job. It also had little to do with low mule deer numbers but that is of no consequence here. Also, there really wasn't a formal predator control plan in place the way there is now in Nevada. Nevada historically followed Utah until the early turn of the century when the stink started to get really rank in regards to "special interest". Colorado was the same but even in Colorado there are some units flourishing while others struggle or are failing. The only real cure for our mule deer has nothing to do with conservation or convention tags, because none of us can control Mother Nature and her response to human presence. We have to look inward before we can find out outward approach and start hoping we see stable numbers. Stable numbers a couple of years in a row would be a great start in my opinion.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>Elkfromabove, I don't
>know how simple it is
>but there is what happened
>at the wildlife board.
>Unit by unit hunting is
>now helping the DWR manage
>the deer better. That
>is their words. The
>loss of the statewide archery
>was a battle. The
>reason it was lost was
>partly the hunters from the
>south region not wanting it
>and the fact that the
>muzzle loader hunters as well
>as the rifle hunters kept
>saying if we have to
>pick a unit so do
>the archery. Their case
>was that the archery hunters
>already get more days to
>hunt. They should not
>have the right to hunt
>the whole state. Nothing
>to do with SFW.
>SFW also wanted the 6000
>permits you say were lost
>to go to the archery
>hunters. Not to decrease
>permits. The $5 increase
>was SFW's plan. The
>deer are decreasing and one
>of the main problems is
>the coyote. That is
>a fact. If you
>do not think coyote control
>and increasing the deer population
>is a big factor, talk
>to the former DWR director
>of Nevada. Deer population
>down and coyotes not controlled.
> Now he has no
>job.
> I
>know that a lot of
>people are unhappy with what
>is going on. I
>also know that there is
>a lot of people that
>are posting things not really
>knowing what is going on
>in the wlb meetings.
>That is why it is
>important to be in attendance
>when possible and voice your
>opinion. Same with the
>rac meetings. Some say
>it does no good but
>the wlb seems to be
>voting with the majority of
>what the racs decide.


Birdman, Birdman, Birdman, if I recall from some of your previous posts correctly. You are a wildlife Biologist from Wyoming. You have only worked with SFW a few years. I believe you stated you went on a SFW dog and pony show to see all the wonderful projects that are being completed due mostly to SFW funds given to the DWR, courtesy of Big game tags!! Friend, I know you probably mean well, have very good intentions, and want to believe in the "BIG 5 of SFW" and "THE DON of Utah Wildlife". But friend, you are about 10-12 years short of personal experiences with these guys. 10-12 years short on getting bread crumbs from the DWR, while the "BOY'S" get mostly what ever they desire. You speak of RAC meeting, Hell I know guy's that set on RAC comitte's right now, that say they are wasteing their time. The RAC is a place for the hunters to vent on issues, then the board does their own thing. You spoke of the DWR going to smaller units to manage the Utah Deer herd better. I think this was long over due, espically since Utah was the last state in the West to do this. And manage deer again, I dont think their has been much deer management for years, their has been "money management" to make a budget work. Also Sir, if you are a Wildlife Biologist from Wyoming,....you are about the last person to know the real truth about SFW. You are the very man they want to convience they are great. I am sure you are aware of SFW trying to get the Wyoming DWR to close public hunting units to make many more Limited Entry Units! So, they can auction off some tags. Your F&G Cops know all about this. Their are many former SFW members makeing posts on MM. I am very sure they all could enlighten you!! You spoke of the Wildlife board meeting. If the rumor that is going around is true, that Ryan Foutz is going to get a board set. That will be 2 former SFW big boys on the board. I dont think many concerned hunters will attend, they probably think they will be wasteing their time.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

8mmMag, Don't know where you get your information from. I have never said that I was from Wyoming though I lived there for a while in the early 70's. I have lived in Utah most my life. I have only been involved with SFW for 9 years. I started out to prove Don Peay as a phony and ended up getting involved. I did not go around listing to others but attended meetings and listened to what was going on. I started to attend the RACs and also all the WLB meetings so I could find out what was really going on. I have done that for years. I have been ask several times by the division of wildlife to apply for the rac and also the wlb. I do not have any plans to do so. Not my thing. Just want to know what goes on first hand and know in my head how it all works. One thing that goes on with this sight is Don Peay runs SFW. Not any more. He does work for them. When it comes to legislation he asks what they want done. The board of directors run the program. No I am not on the board. I do attend some. I do know what goes on.
I hear what you say about the racs and then the wlb doing what they want. I will say one thing. There are five racs in the state. They all have basically the same agenda presented to them. Then they vote. Then at the wildlife board those 5 racs present what went on at their meetings. Not all racs have the same conclusion. From what I have seen the WLB goes with the majority of what the racs want. Thus, if a rac did not get what they wanted, wlb did not listen to them but did what they want.
I do not know what Ryan Foutz is going to end up doing. I have not heard if he has applied for the WLB. I do know the bought into Kings Camo as a part owner. Something that is more secure for the future. People are jumping to conclusions way to fast. And the fact that John Bair listens to SFW in decisions, I have seen him go against what they want because the majority of the rac's did not want it. Again, hear say or third hand does not make up for first hand knowledge. It is interesting if there is something really questionable lots of people show up to the WLB meeting. Mostly there is maybe 5 or 6 people. People have shown if they want something bad enough they will make the effort to be there. Not many show but lots complain.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Not everyone can attend every RAC or WB meeting. THUS, agendas and information packets are provided along with a live feed of the WB meetings and because the "average joes" and most "die hard hunters" actually have to work during these meetings, the division provides minutes on the same page. One does NOT have to physically be at a WB or at a RAC in order to be informed. Most folks on MM and other sites actually read and listen to information provided on the division website. Anyone has free access to audio and minutes of past RACs and WB meetings and if not, send me a message and I'll prepare a GRAMA for you.

For me, its pretty clear when an agenda item makes the list and is from the SFW Steering Committee that the WB will ignore most of what the RACs vote on and send forward. But, decide for yourselves. Here's the link:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/huntin...rd-meeting-agendas-materials-and-minutes.html
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

kibzdad, I am well aware of the live feed and the minutes that take place at the WB and RAC meetings. Where I disagree with you is you say Most Folks on MM and other sight actually read and listen to the information. As I have looked at what people put on the forums some, most are not really close to what really goes on. Also when you state that the WB will ignore most of what the rac's vote on and send it forward if SFW wants it I will disagree with you. Maybe we will just to agree to disagree but I have not seen that. I hope that people will take time to learn what is going on and listen or read the minutes and materials put out by the DWR.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"Did I miss something? Are Mule Deer thriving in Texas? If locking up land, and paying out the azz saves mule deer, shouldn't mule deer populations be exploding in Texas?"

Mule deer populations have remained stable in Texas for the past couple of decades. In a few areas populations have risen. A few years ago the state included muledeer in their state MLD program and many ranches in the transpecos region have joined. We are killing larger mule deer than we ever have in the state and most ranches in the MLD program are seeing numbers rise. No counties in Texas are required to draw for tags nor are you required to purchase a land owner tag. Tags are still over the counter for either sex. The state has not had to shorten the mule deer season and in fact ranches in the MLD program now enjoy a longer season that includes the rut. Sounds like there is a better chance for my kids to hunt mule deer here in Texas when they grow up than your kids getting to hunt mule deer in Utah when they grow up.

"Yes Mule deer populations were down before SFW, they are still down, despite the million upon millions in welfare SFW sucked up to save them. Only an idiot sees failure and corruption, then gives them more money hoping for a diiferent result."

I am not claiming we should give SFW more money. Go back and read.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

klbzdad,

I have a few of questions that I want you to answer honestly.

1. What is the future of mule deer conservation and mule deer hunting that you desire? Please elaborate on your motives.

2. What do you think the future of mule deer conservation and hunting that wealthy people desire? Please elaborate on their motives.

3. What do you think the future of mule deer conservation and hunting that SFW desires? Please elaborate on their motives.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Most Sportmen in this state dont have a direct phone line down to the state capital, to collect favors from elected officals to help influence wildlife decision makeing. But a few do have this option. Its very hard to trust and have faith in people that put personal agends ahead of what is best for all. "Like" giveing away a Utah Limited entry Elk tag (San Juan I think) to a hunter who shot a big buck on the Henry's......just to get him to bring the buck to the WHCS and display it there. Some Utah hunters wait 18 years for this tag, I guess I am old fashion....I like to think there is still right and wrong in this world.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-13 AT 08:08AM (MST)[p]8mmMag, Tell me about that. That would cost that organization thousands of dollars to give the tag away. Especially a San Juan tag that costs the organization probably tens of thousands of dollars. You do know that these groups bid for these tags from the State. They are not free. So much money is basically guaranteed to the State. Problem is you are going by hear say and not facts. Lots of rumors floating around. Go by facts not rumors.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-13
>AT 08:08?AM (MST)
>
>8mmMag, Tell me about that.
> That would cost that
>organization thousands of dollars to
>give the tag away.
>Especially a San Juan tag
>that costs the organization probably
>tens of thousands of dollars.
> You do know that
>these groups bid for these
>tags from the State.
>They are not free.
>So much money is basically
>guaranteed to the State.
> Problem is you are
>going by hear say and
>not facts. Lots of
>rumors floating around. Go
>by facts not rumors.


OK Friend, go ask anyone who has worked on a SFW committe for a long time. I was setting in a SFW committe meeting when I was told about this issue by 15 SFW members. One officer so upset over this, he quit. Dont even tell me what I know and dont know. You appear to be the uninformed. If you doubt what I have stated,....contact some long time members, ask them about this comment.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"OK Friend, go ask anyone who has worked on a SFW committe for a long time. I was setting in a SFW committe meeting when I was told about this issue by 15 SFW members. One officer so upset over this, he quit. Dont even tell me what I know and dont know. You appear to be the uninformed. If you doubt what I have stated,....contact some long time members, ask them about this comment."

NO! If you want to make accusations like you are making it is not everyone elses resposibility to follow it up. You should man up and name names and say exactly when it happened.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>Thankyou for posting those links.
>The first link is a
>propoganda pitch for anti-hunters.
>Why am I not amazed
>you posted it. It
>is the same problem that
>is facing the african lion
>right now. Most places
>where the cats are legaly
>hunted they are flurishing.
>Everywhere else they are a
>pest and they get whiped
>out. Either way rags
>like the one you posted
>decide to blame hunters.
>
>As for the second link I
>am sorry but it will
>not open for me so
>I can not comment.
>
>The third post is about a
>specie that was pushed to
>the edge of extinction before
>any modern conservation practices had
>even been thought about so
>it really doesn't apply to
>this arguement.
>
>If you want to look up
>info on international hunting saving
>species maybe do some surches
>on Markhor, both black and
>white rhino, and the african
>elephant. These are just
>a couple of examples.

So, a study showing no recovery per your system of a near identical species doesn't apply, but completely different species (lion, rhino and elephant) studies showing recovery do? (I assume, I didn't bother looking them up because none of those animals have winter-kill, road kill, noticable human encroachmnent, predator loss nor are they regularly harvested by locals.)

And an article that only exposes YOUR system of hunting is automatically labeled as anti-hunting?

And, again, you miss the point. Simply increasing the number of animals still won't allow most Utahns to hunt if the price is too high per their priorities. And money is a major factor in setting priorities. Even you won't take the time and spend the effort to build a mount if the customer isn't willing to pay your price.

It's obvious that you simply want to argue to meet some egotistical, emotional, psychological or sexual need and I'm no longer going to accomodate you. Besides, you have no actual influence on the way things are done in this state and I have to spend my limited computer time communicating with people that do. Purhaps your time is better spent fixing the hunting problems in Texas as I'm sure there are some. If you work it right maybe you can even get more customers and can grow your business.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>klbzdad,
>
>I have a few of questions
>that I want you to
>answer honestly.
>
>1. What is the future
>of mule deer conservation and
>mule deer hunting that you
>desire? Please elaborate on
>your motives.
>
>2. What do you think
>the future of mule deer
>conservation and hunting that wealthy
>people desire? Please elaborate
>on their motives.
>
>3. What do you think
>the future of mule deer
>conservation and hunting that SFW
>desires? Please elaborate on
>their motives.

I'm coming up on mid terms. I don't have time to even pick on you until after the first of next month and even then I will be putting in my time with the SFW trans-location efforts HERE in Utah. I am, however, going to make a commitment to answer each of your questions on the condition that you answer them as well. By the way, I support the FOLKS of SFW locally and will be at their banquet this year with my wife and other members of UWC. My issue has never been with the organization, just current and past leadership who have other interests than what the group is supposed to represent. I've also donated a dinner package to our local RMEF banquet although they are both on the same night and we will send others to attend and support their efforts. Its what a COOPERATIVE is all about.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"So, a study showing no recovery per your system of a near identical species doesn't apply,"

They don't talk about any issues for recovery. All it is, is a hit piece for foreign hunters. It doesn't even discuss local hunting or poaching.

" but completely different species (lion, rhino and elephant) studies showing recovery do? (I assume, I didn't bother looking them up because none of those animals have winter-kill, road kill, noticable human encroachmnent, predator loss nor are they regularly harvested by locals.)"

No human encroachment or local harvest??????? Thats pretty much the entire problem facing the above species.

"And an article that only exposes YOUR system of hunting is automatically labeled as anti-hunting?"

You mean the article that stated 7000 foreign hunters a year are whiping out all the wildlife in a space 1/3 the size of the USA. Are you really believing that garbage?

"And, again, you miss the point. Simply increasing the number of animals still won't allow most Utahns to hunt if the price is too high per their priorities."

You don't understand the rules of supply and demand do you?

" And money is a major factor in setting priorities. Even you won't take the time and spend the effort to build a mount if the customer isn't willing to pay your price."

Now you are just babbling because you are out of ideas.

"It's obvious that you simply want to argue to meet some egotistical, emotional, psychological or sexual need and I'm no longer going to accomodate you. Besides, you have no actual influence on the way things are done in this state and I have to spend my limited computer time communicating with people that do. Purhaps your time is better spent fixing the hunting problems in Texas as I'm sure there are some. If you work it right maybe you can even get more customers and can grow your business."

Like I said, you are out of ideas.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"I am, however, going to make a commitment to answer each of your questions on the condition that you answer them as well."

I can not answer question 1 one since I can not read your mind. I am interested in your thoughts and that is why I asked it.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

m73,

If someone tips your apple cart do you feel jealousy? Has nothing to do with jealousy for me. I wish you could understand this. It has to do with exclusive rights continually edging me out.

It really pisses me off that groups take public tags, profit from them, and then use their money to push out my general opportunities.

I had no problems with these groups until I realized they pretty much want to wipe out general hunts. I had no problem with them until I realized all of the general restrictions they have pushed haven't helped.

Other than that, I agree with you. I'm glad there are some high dollar tags out there.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>"I am, however, going to make
>a commitment to answer each
>of your questions on the
>condition that you answer them
>as well."
>
>I can not answer question 1
>one since I can not
>read your mind. I
>am interested in your thoughts
>and that is why I
>asked it.
>
>
>

So you won't answer question #1 as it would apply to you? You're a jackass man! Plain and simple! You do nothing more than seek a reason to argue with anyone about anything. YOU are a waste of time.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

If any sportsman in Utah, cannot look around the environment they live in and see the money that has been put on the ground by SFW and special intersest groups, they are blind as hell. Part of this money comes from the conservation programs. There was a reference to mother nature controlling the deer herds. Well if all the habitat improvements had not been made, then we would lose a hell of a lot more deer to mother nature than before the projects. The habitat projects alone put more tags in the general draw than any other factor alone. Think about it, it really is not that difficult, and for someone to say SFW is "stealing" their tags is ridiculous. Between conservation dollars and habitat projects by these groups, they have added more tags to the "general" hunter to apply for than could be imagined without them. Look at any limited entry unit and see how the tags have increase over the years. Why, because generally speaking, we are increasing carrying capacity and therefore more quantity, not to mention quality. Don't we all with we could hunt giants EVERY year? Well, we can't have our cake and eat it both, everyone has to give a little. Peace.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

> Don't we
>all with we could hunt
>giants EVERY year? Well,
>we can't have our cake
>and eat it both, everyone
>has to give a little.
> Peace.


Not if you're rich and live in Utah. Then you do get your cake and get to eat it, too. It's the average guy that loses and hunts once in his life... assuming he got in the point pool ten years ago. Because if he is starting now, he may never draw; especially with the new tag transfer bill.

Utah sells more tags at auction than every other western state combined. We in no way have the "proof on the hoof" that this system works. Your main statement is a theoretical, such as "if" we hadn't done this, "then" we would have this. Peayday has had his try at Utah wildlife management, look what we have. Colorado has better deer than us, Arizona has better elk than us. We aren't near the top state's in number of animals harvested or B&C entries in any big game species over the last few years. Those aren't hypothetical assumptions, they are facts.

Sticking with Peayday is like re-electing Obama and thinking he will balance the budget. It hasn't worked up 'til now, why would it be better next year? He can sell snake oil all he wants. I'm not dumb, and I'm not buying.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

I asked you a question boy and you're not man enough to answer it. It wasn't even a hard question. Quit trying to throw this on other people. Earlier you had no time to answer the question but now you have time to post on here and call me names.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Grizzly,

Your system hasn't worked for thirty years. Why would we go back to it? Come up with a way to fix the problems instead of wanting to trade in one system that you think is broke for a system we all know is broke. If you can come up with a better wildlife plan I am glad to here it.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Grizz. Why is it then that when the program started we had approximately 12 sheep tags. Now with the conservation money making transplants possible look what we have. Same with goats, buffalo. Now with the deer transplant looking better the predicted maybe conservation money there. Yes it is harder to draw in Utah. According to the DWR applications are rising by the thousands every year. Hunting is getting better in Utah and that is why people want to hunt in Utah.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>Is that you Zim?

Haha no woodruffhunter it is not me! :) I have too much work to do right now. But there are more than enough folks each year to go around that discover the Utah privitization of public resources. The state has to publish that information.

Good luck to all in the Utah draw. I have a Wyoming Bighorn Mtns. elk tag in my pocket. Good way to start out.

********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

I think most of us agree that some of the monies these tags produce goes to the benefit of our wildlife, and that's a good thing; but are these tags the right way to go about that end result? I don't know for sure, but I have my doubts. It's a slippery slope to climb. This topic is always highly emotional and contentious, and well is should be as I believe it speaks to the essence of the Public Trust Doctrine, which is the cornerstone of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model.

There are those who claim and advocate that the NAWCM is out of date and doesn't apply to our evolving wildlife conservation issues, and there are those that seek political and legal venues to sidestep the PTD, and they are succeeding one step at a time, and that is both disheartening and alarming because those who advocate such are, for the most part, those who would gain financially at the public?s and wildlife?s expense. Personally, I believe the North American Model is just fine as is, thank you very much!

That being said, is there are place for Wildlife Conservation Tags? Maybe, but I have a hard time justifying so, regardless of their end result. Maybe to my own fault, I tend to look at the larger picture and the direction these kinds of issues take the future of our wildlife and our hunting heritage, and that direction-in this case-doesn't look so promising to me. I ask myself if there is some wiggle room here to take our resource and have it provide financially for it's own benefit and future sustainability without sliding down that slippery slope? Again, maybe, and if so how can it be accomplished? Tough question for me.

As hunters and fishers, we have always born the greater financial load of maintaining our wildlife and the lands on which they reside. I know it's getting more and more expensive to manage our wildlife and many state agencies are up against the wall, that certainly isn't lost on me and I know the money has to come from somewhere. If using these conservation tags becomes the ONLY way to add to the coffers-which I don't think is the case-then we must look hard at how that system can best be utilized when measured against the NAWCM and the PTD, and frankly, the Utah system when measured, is found wanting, and some reform needs to be looked at hard and long, IMHO.


www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Take away 1000s of tags over a decade out of the regular draw where Richie Rich has no more advantage than Joe SixPack and auction to Richie Rich so eventually a couple of dozen tags for sheep, goats and bisons are offered in the regular draw. That sounds like Congress at work.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

>Grizz. Why is it then
>that when the program started
>we had approximately 12 sheep
>tags. Now with the
>conservation money making transplants possible
>look what we have.
>Same with goats, buffalo. Now
>with the deer transplant looking
>better the predicted maybe
>conservation money there. Yes
>it is harder to draw
>in Utah. According to
>the DWR applications are rising
>by the thousands every year.
> Hunting is getting better
>in Utah and that is
>why people want to hunt
>in Utah.


It is tough to promote SFW as philanthropic when they grow two sheep and then want one back to sell to their buddies. The reason application numbers are so high in Utah is two-fold.

1) Utah is extremely cheap to apply, with no up-front tag fees, and you can build points for every species. See Idaho and Montana for perfect proof... they recently increased NR fees and saw massive die-offs in NR applications. At the same time, Utah makes the change to allow NR to apply for all species and sees an increase. Montana has put 60 bull elk into B&C in the last 10 years; more than Arizona, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, and Nevada. But they also have leftover elk tags since the day they raised tag fees. It isn't reflective of quality, it is reflective of price.

2) Utah has excellent quality on their LE hunts. Nobody can dispute it. Nobody questions it. The conflict is with quality v. opportunity. Are we doing the residents of Utah, who own the animals, any favors by allowing a VERY few handful of people the opportunity to hunt them? EVER? IN THEIR WHOLE ENTIRE LIFE?

That's my issue. We just disagree with each other on how the future of hunting in Utah should be.

I'll tell you one thing though, walking through the Mossback booth today and seeing the same few people's names on multiple bucks and bulls didn't help your cause in my view. These are animals that me or my family will never have the opportunity to hunt. I want to see average joe's having the chance to hunt those awesome animals. I may get a Henry's tag in my life, my kids won't, and neither will theirs.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

This battle is going to be fought in the near future & we all know it. As I see it perceived pubic opinion is changing & groups like RMEF will need to decide what side of the fence they are truly on! Do they follow perceived public opinion & push the issue creating a divide from the private landowners or do they continue on promoting conservation & keep building an alliance with landowners? Personally I wish the land locked lands would have been traded or sold a long time ago & I also believe in most cases a landowner would be able to show damage.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

HUNTINCO, The battle has been underway in Utah for several years. Since that crook Herbert decided to ignore the State Constitution which allows for public access to navigable water
and side with a certain family member which owned land on the Provo, it's been on in a front and center kind of way.

Here's my two cents on the deal and you can take it for what it's worth.

Wildlife IS PART OF THE PUBLIC TRUST DOCTRINE. Not a hybrid version of the concept, but wholly owned for the public's use.
Not the rich, not the opportunist or the trophy hunter. Just the public as a whole and bad as it may be the tax paying anti hunters fall in here too.

Hunters are our own worst enemy, we keep buying the snake oil sold by some and can't see past our own wants / needs. Some equate that with opportunity, some with trophy. These two views are amplified by the snake oil that we are all so eager to pay for but equal nothing more than a huge smokescreen to push one sides agenda.

Once anything pits hunter against anything that has to do with whats best for wildlife scientific management ain't worth a squirt of piss.

Case in point, Bonus points. Guys with low points scream cause they will never draw, guys with years invested in this pyramid scheme scream because there's too many tags and the quality is all shot out, meanwhile we kill cows to be able to feed elk through the winter, which draws screams, and yet the system won't allow scientific management that would actually benefit the species.

These snake oil salesmen have convinced hunters that bucks and bulls, do, in fact give birth and that by killing EXCESS males of the species we are hampering herd growth, when science and available data for the last half century can make no such claim.

They have tried to convince hunters that the old economic theory of trickle down will work for wildlife. It does if you are at the top of the pyramid and only care about getting your 5 minutes of magazine / internet fame, but, just like economically this theory benefits a few, creates debt, and causes boom bust cycles. Sound familiar??

I had been in favor of a limited amount of wealth tags until recently. All these tags do is allow more and more revenue to be generated from the wrong sources and tailor game management to maximize returns on these high dollar permits.

The worst part of this whole cycle is that we as hunters aren't disciplined enough to pull the gun barrel out of our own mouth's. We keep buying in to this crap. We keep rushing up to apply for a couple hundred permits that were stolen from us and giving money to the system that is bending us all over. Through supporting this idiocy, even one iota, we are ruining it for all.

We've been here before with the kings deer and we didn't learn a damn thing.

Wake the hell up.

As far as private land access... Lock it all up or allow access, that's your choice as the landowner. However if you won't allow the public to handle depredation situations with wildlife don't come looking for a handout from the public. Same with any service the public provides. Fire, Security, agricultural diseases and so on, don't call on the public to help if you don't allow public access. I may remind you that the public owns that wildlife on your land and if you don't wish to feed them all winter the fencing expense will be all yours as well. If you do allow public access to your property I believe the public should have a hand in putting out fires, providing security and so on.













"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"We've been here before with the kings deer and we didn't learn a damn thing.

Wake the hell up.

As far as private land access... Lock it all up or allow access, that's your choice as the landowner. However if you won't allow the public to handle depredation situations with wildlife don't come looking for a handout from the public. Same with any service the public provides. Fire, Security, agricultural diseases and so on, don't call on the public to help if you don't allow public access. I may remind you that the public owns that wildlife on your land and if you don't wish to feed them all winter the fencing expense will be all yours as well. If you do allow public access to your property I believe the public should have a hand in putting out fires, providing security and so on."

I was really enjoying the honesty of your post until I got to this. This quite possibly the most un-American shamefull pile of garbage I have personaly seen on these forums. You think that you should be able to extort land access from people. Men and women with families who have paid taxes for those services of safety and care, and you think you should be able to withhold that so you can go hunting????? By that line of thought we would no longer need the 3rd ammendment to our constitution. DO you know what that is?
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"I was really enjoying the honesty of your post until I got to this. This quite possibly the most un-American shamefull pile of garbage I have personaly seen on these forums. You think that you should be able to extort land access from people. Men and women with families who have paid taxes for those services of safety and care, and you think you should be able to withhold that so you can go hunting????? By that line of thought we would no longer need the 3rd ammendment to our constitution. DO you know what that is?"

PROSTATE where did I ask for one inch of access??? I'm pretty sure I said.

"As far as private land access... Lock it all up or allow access, that's your choice as the landowner."

PROSTATE I knew you'd struggle with this concept. You hate welfare unless it's upward welfare. Here's the deal, if a private landowner won't allow a public hunter access to alleviate wildlife depredation situations then they have no right asking for depredation funds. Do you need further translation??












"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"PROSTATE where did I ask for one inch of access??? I'm pretty sure I said."

You didn't ask for access. Thats my whole issue with your post. You decided you should be able to EXTORT people for access. That is how scum and criminals behave.

"PROSTATE I knew you'd struggle with this concept. You hate welfare unless it's upward welfare. Here's the deal, if a private landowner won't allow a public hunter access to alleviate wildlife depredation situations then they have no right asking for depredation funds. Do you need further translation??"

Actually I didn't struggle with this concept at all. I struggled with the fact that you would deny fire rescue and security for taxpayers because they kept you from hunting a certian spot. As for whether you can deny someone funds because they denied you access YOU ARE VIOLATIONG THE THIRD AMMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION! As an American citizen you are not required to give access to your government of your property. Your military can't walk in your house and demand a meal and a bed, nor can they require you give a meal and a bed or a tresspass right to a coyote hunter. The minute you decide who gets a government fund on the basis of who gives up their constitutional rights is the day lawyers are going to chew the DNR to pieces.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"You didn't ask for access. Thats my whole issue with your post. You decided you should be able to EXTORT people for access. That is how scum and criminals behave."

PROSTATE, I'm not extorting anybody. I'm not asking for one landowner to allow one hunter on their property. It's their land and they are free to do with it as they wish. However guys like you continually complain about hunting and public lands being a socialist evil. I'll call it part of the public trust, our heritage. You wish for every protection that society provides you at the smallest cost possible. Basically straight crony capitalism philosophy. Privatize profit / socialize loss and when you realize that you have accomplished your goal of privatization
and trouble strikes you run to the public for a bailout. Paying taxes don't guarantee you squat. Lets say you have 10,000 acres worth of tinder box land that you've created by mismanagement, is it my responsibility to come put the fire out?? Should I provide welfare for you?? When the dishwasher in my house breaks should I expect my taxpaying neighbors to pay the bill to get it fixed??

It's your personal property, you want it privatized, handle your business. No one is denying you personal liberty on your property
and I'm not asking for access, I'm saying for those landowners that do allow access to public hunters funding should be provided.

Along this same train of thought and to get back on topic, is it up to Utah hunters to subsidize a private corporation via the public's wildlife??









"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"PROSTATE, I'm not extorting anybody. I'm not asking for one landowner to allow one hunter on their property."

Yes you are. Just because you keep denying it doesn't make it the truth.

" It's their land and they are free to do with it as they wish."

Thankyou oh gracious one. I am sure landowners needed you to let them know you OK'ed that for them.

" However guys like you continually complain about hunting and public lands being a socialist evil."

When did I EVER call hunting a "socialist evil". Go back and find that for me. You have trouble with reality don't you.

" I'll call it part of the public trust, our heritage. You wish for every protection that society provides you at the smallest cost possible."

No I wish for some government not to subvert my God given rights for the purpose of you going hunting!

" Basically straight crony capitalism philosophy. Privatize profit / socialize loss and when you realize that you have accomplished your goal of privatization
and trouble strikes you run to the public for a bailout."

When AM I running for a bailout?

" Paying taxes don't guarantee you squat."

You want to bet. Those taxes are legaly connected to laws. When we pay them the government is forced by LAW to appropriate them for known budgets and laws. If they do not do so they are commiting FELONIES.

" Lets say you have 10,000 acres worth of tinder box land that you've created by mismanagement, is it my responsibility to come put the fire out??"

You damn well better believe it is your responsibility.

" Should I provide welfare for you??"

How is it Welfare? I PAID FOR IT!

" When the dishwasher in my house breaks should I expect my taxpaying neighbors to pay the bill to get it fixed??"

Your dishwasher ain't an issue of public safety.

"It's your personal property, you want it privatized, handle your business."

I am, and part of handling my business is paying taxes!

" No one is denying you personal liberty on your property
and I'm not asking for access, I'm saying for those landowners that do allow access to public hunters funding should be provided."

EXTORTION is violating personal liberty!

"Along this same train of thought and to get back on topic, is it up to Utah hunters to subsidize a private corporation via the public's wildlife??"

It can or can't be. Depends on what the state legislature and wildlife board decides. If it has violated a constitutional right then you can take it up in Federal Court.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"No I wish for some government not to subvert my God given rights for the purpose of you going hunting!"

What right am I proposing to subvert??






"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Still I been up to my ass in basketball since
September!!

Time to get back at it!!



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"What right am I proposing to subvert??"


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --"

Did you forget your American History? That sentence states ALL men not just the ones that you decide since they allow access to hunting.
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

So you aren't going to answer the question??







"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

"When did I EVER call hunting a "socialist evil". Go back and find that for me. You have trouble with reality don't you."

Said as only the eloquent TRITIP could:

" You actually are too stupid to realize the entire foundation of NACM is closer to socialism and Marxism aND THAT IS WHY IT IS FAILING!"















"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

I did answer the question.

By the way thinking NACM is socialist does not mean hunting is a "socialist evil".
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

You didn't answer ##### PROSTATE!!
As expected, the bumper stickers gotta run out sooner or later right!?

You sound like Slick Willy trying to dodge your socialist blast.
Spin it however you wish it's in context up above
In post 14.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
RE: Utah Conservation permits

Every single question you asked her has been answered. Ask again maybe you or I missed something but I doubt it. I think you have run out of argument for your anti-American rant.
 

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