Utards want their land back.

Taking 3 million bucks from the education fund to pay some attorneys probably won't help many kids. And that's just the money it will take to get started! Utah is an idiot. They will lose this case and they will tick off the federal government. But at least this is one example where political greed will not prevail :)
 
So what would be your solution. Let some liberal good for nothing politicians have control over lands they have never seen? I bet not one damn one of them has even seen a picture of the land they are voting on. I don't care if it's for the children or if it's to fund some whorehouse in Nevada. States should have control over their own land. Utah learned its lesson the hardway. Any of you "non Utah residents" remember the Grand Staircase fiasco? I'm all for states controlling land that resides in our borders. A few National Parks are OK but the federal government land grab is rediculous! By the way, I'm a Utah resident and I back these boys 100%.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Your lucky the Indians dont want their land back...

My bone is no stranger to
great envy!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-12 AT 11:34PM (MST)[p]As much as I dislike/don't trust the federal government I hate/don't trust Utarded politicians even more. Give them control of forest service and BLM land and they will be selling it off like Crack. Not to mention Utards are so greedy for money they would mine and drill for gas and oil on every available square foot of land. Those dumbasses can't even manage the few state parks they have without them going broke, how in the hell are they going to manage 3 million more acres.
The feds have owned that land for over a hundred years and I can still hunt, camp, fish and whatever for FREE. Let Utarded politicians own it for 100 years and there would be no public land left and what little is left they would charge you a fee to use it.

AHLB, the Wasatch unit you guide on would make for some great subdivided 10-20 acre parcels or a giant open pit copper mine.

Oh yea, so I guess my solution would be leave it as is.



No estas en mexico ahora, entonces escoja tu basura
chancho sucio.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-12 AT 06:39AM (MST)[p]In case you're unfamiliar with the Wasatch unit which I don't guide on anymore, there are already 10-20 acre parcels that have cabins on them all over that unit. There's also some big private land parcels on it. And I don't know about you but I'm damn sick and tired of paying $4.00 a gallon for fuel. HELL YES lets tap into our natural resources! Why not? You're sounding more and more liberal with every post there shotgun. What's up with that?

P.S. I don't want this whole conversation to come across as disrespectful. We may just have to agree to disagree on this one. :)


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Well shotgunjim!

Don't know if you've noticed lately,but there ain't much FREE on USFS Ground anymore?

More & More FREE Camp Sites are taken each year & places to Camp that were FREE have been Closed/Blocked Off so you can't pull in anymore!

But Close-By you can 'PAY' to park/camp in a Campground!

I'll have to Agree with you though,Sure the Hell wouldn't want what We've got left destroyed by GREEDY POLITICIANS/STATE OF TARDville!

I've said this for 20+ years:Why ain't 90% of Passenger Cars running on Natural Gas?For the last 30+ years 90% of Passenger Cars shoulda/coulda been running on Natural Gas,They've been Drilling around here since time began,still drilling Gas Wells & Still capping most of them,WTH?

In my younger years I always Highly Respected the USFS,but as time goes on I've lost alot of Respect due to all the BS that goes on,often wondered who will destroy Our Ground the Quickest?The USFS or the State of Utah?

I'm with BULL on the High Fuel prices,but even if they Invaded & Destroyed every square inch of the State you'd never see Fuel prices drop due to the Oil Companies & Our GREEDY US Government being in bed with each other!

Perty Sad when most of the Decisions made in the West on USFS Land are made by Easterners/New Yorkers,WAJ!


[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
do not let the state get these grounds, in a few years the rich would own it all. right now we own it. and it is mostly free.
 
awholelotof bull.you need to think this over more . for the states idea is just that. awhole lot of bull. 110%
 
I'm all for Utah getting the land I'm not for it being sold utilized yes sold and turned to private land hell no. Logging yes, grazing yes, mining yes, sold to the highest bidder for a personal playground no way. And I'm afraid that would happen.
 
After hearing the way Utah citizens have allowed their state to screw up hunting for the common man and now reading this, why doesn't Utah just secede from the union, LOL! Honestly, taking millions of dollars of YOUR tax money to fight Congress for all the Federal land has to be the most ridiculous thing I've read in the last day or two!!!
 
Think how much those new deer and elk tags will be worth in those parks that don't get hunted now.



"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
you guys that are not from utah are only reading half the story. We are sick of BLM USFS locking us out of the public property, they have shut down more access to this ground and any private land owner would. The BLM is closing roads without going through the proper channels to do so. USFS is doing the same. The public grounds are not as public as they use to be. Utah is trying to prevent BLM and USFS from closing the ground completely down, because they are convincing you non utahns that they are protecting the land, yes they are but trying to lock every one of us out of it.
BLM and USFS use to manage the grounds, making sure grazing, logging, and such was used to benefit the ground and make sure that feed was good for grazing and for wildlife.
They have gone from that to policing the ground, they dont manage it for anything anymore, they are trying to keep all of us off the ground, and let it all over grow with forage that benefits nothing.
 
X2 Bess,

They are all in bed with each other. Right wing, left wing...that chit doesn't matter they are all money hungry. Yeah, they have different agendas, but its all about the money.

Its all about who gets the bigger half of the pie. While our money is being used to decide the issue. Sure the libs keep restricting our rights with closing roads and camping fees, but we can still use the land. If Utah politicians get total control, watch out we won't even have access. It'll go to the highest bidder. Watch and see. We will foot the bill, then Utah will sell every bit of it off to the highest bidder. It will be a lose lose for the common man and wildlife.
 
Said Rep. Ken Sumsion, R-American Fork, and a candidate for governor. "we can determine which ones would be sold".

This is the line of thinking that you guys keep missing. They want to SELL many of these lands. How many cabin lots and No Trespassing signs do you guys want to see in 5th Water or Dry Gluch or McCook Ridge or Beef Basin or Mt Pinnell or the Vermillion Cliffs or Comb Ridge or the Awapa Plateau or the Deep Creeks Basin or the Swasey Mtns.

Will selling these lands help or hurt big game and big game hunting? Do you trust a suit in Utah to sell your, OUR, public lands?

I can handle more general access and more energy development. But they want to SELL many of these lands.
 
I read the BLM and USFS is closing roads limiting access and camping areas. Are these areas still to be open for public use such as horse and human foot traffic. Or are these areas totally being closed off to all access?

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway."
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-12 AT 11:18AM (MST)[p]I think what the Utah people may be failing to realize is that it isn't their land we are talking about. It is OUR land, that being every taxpayer throughout the country, not just those of you living in Utah! The Feds can be beat if you all get together and just do it. Over the last couple years they were trying to shut the Huron Manistee National Forest down to hunting and several other uses up here in the northern part of lower Michigan. The various conservation groups got together and there was such a public outcry that the Feds have now reassessed the situation and came out with a new plan for diversity of the lands which includes ALL of what they were trying to close down.
 
federal lands get developed all the time, what on earth are some of you talking about? and giving control of forest service and BLM lands to the states would be insane, they would eventually get sold off, Nevada sold all their state owned lands years ago, in Wyoming the public cannot camp overnight on any state owned lands, is that the kind of management you want? Federally owned lands are the the best part of America in my opinion, without them there would be no good reason to live here.
 
you guys dont see the picture, right now they are trying to basically make san juan county into a national monument, which would end hunting in most of san juan area. The feds are already trying to sale off public access by making these rational decisions. They are already pushing us off of land. Utah is trying to make it so the feds cannot make millions of acres of ground into national monuments by the signature of the president of united states. We are trying to keep access to the grounds.

Saling of ground is already done, for every township of ground there is several sections that are considered school grounds, they can sale those when needed. That was set up long time ago.

IF you want come spend some time down here and see what we are talking about. WE are constantly battling with evironmental groups that are trying the back door aproach to keep you and me off of the public land. National monuments of millions of acres, all it takes is presidents signature and its done.
 
I've got news for you boys that think the federal government is the way to best "manage" public land in Utah. Rumor has it that USFS and BLM are closing camping spots by the 100's every year. According to some individuals involved in the process, they are doing this with the intent to completely eliminate roadside camping within the next 5 years. You will no longer be able to go hunting and just pull into the first camp spot you find. They are supposedly going to develop campgrounds and charge you a nightly fee. When I asked the question "how are they going to stop the public from camping on public grounds", they told me the fines will be big enough to deter the would be camper. If yo doubt what I'm telling you, just talk to the boys at Camper World. They have all the literature. But by hell lets let the Feds do this to us behind our back! I'm all for Federal control! NOT!


It's always an adventure!!!
 
elkun - when I first heard that I thought that there was no way they could ever do that. But then it all made sense. The more time I spent in the woods and could see closures of things that just didn't make sense, the more sense it made. So I asked one of my neighbors that is a retired USFS ranger. He said they have been trying to do this for 20 years but haven't been able to figure out a way to do it so that the public didn't notice it. A gradual takover if you will. Do you honestly want people that don't hunt, don't camp, don't ride atv's, dont' fish, pay $2500 a month for a studio appartment and drive BMW's, decide on how the State of Utah uses it's land? Really? Loosen up those liberal shorts and really think about it. I have thought about it since Clinton slid his sneaky ass in here and claimed all that prime deer hunting ground down on the Grand Staircase. Sound familiar?


It's always an adventure!!!
 
awholelotofbull., i dont like the feds any more than you. or trust them, but the state is worse, look what they did to are big game tags, with no end in sight,,,,money money money..
 
Many of those camp site closures could simply be the result of a lack of funds to properly operate or maintain them.

Eldorado
 
I'm not talking about maintained camp sites. I'm talking about all the pullouts in the hills where a family can pull in 4 or 5 trailers and build a fire for the weekend. According to individuals in the USFS those days are coming to a close. The Feds have been planning this for a long time. Pretty soon the deer hunt will consist on calling as soon as you know you have a tag, to reserve your camp site and pay in advance per night. I would sure hope this would never come to pass but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it did.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
AWHOLELOTTABULL, these guys dont want to know what the feds have been doing to us and are doing to us they want to think all is well that its public property and that means they can use it, they have no clue that our public grounds are already being closed to us by the feds. the news article doesn't portray it right, the person writing the article was probably a member of SUWA.
 
This is crazy! SFW is a supporter of this idea???!!! For the first time in my life I think I am going to be supporting SUWA and the Democrats. Many Utah politicians are nuts, this is a horrible idea. First, it will never happen. But if it did, I do not trust our legislature to run our public lands. I am absolutely not saying the feds are awesome managers, but I will take the Forest Service and BLM over the UT legislature any day.

Any citizen that enjoys recreating, hunting, fishing, trapping on public lands should be scared to death by this. This will not end well for sportsmen, at least not for the average sportsmen. Rich guys might do all right if they can pay more for a hunting lease than the land is worth to the oil, cattle, timber, mining barons.

Worst idea I have heard in ages. Do we need some reform on how the feds run things? Absolutely. Do we need to give some shortsighted pandering extremist local politicians absolute power to control these lands? Absolutely NOT.

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.
 
in Utah it's not for the people.....it never has been. .its for the big wigs, their friends, and for the Industrial complex that hit and run....leaving us to clean up the garbage.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-12 AT 10:19PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-12 AT 10:19?PM (MST)

National Monuments don't automatically ban hunting. In fact, most do allow it...including the Grand Staircase Escalante (which also still allows grazing).

How can Utah afford to take ownership of the Federal land? Our legislators and Mike Styler can't even keep our state parks out of the red? And preserve access??? Please. If you think that would be true, just take a look at how much access SITLA has shut down, and how much "Utah" land they've sold to the highest bidder.

____________________________

I hunt. I fish. I VOTE.

Get the F out of SFW
 
Said Rep. Ken Sumsion, R-American Fork, and a candidate for governor. "we can determine which ones would be sold".

They want to SELL IT. Will they sell what YOU love? Will you be buying it or will Ivory Homes? I am sure the larger land parcels will not be bought by a local good-ole rancher, but by Corporations.

Said Rep. Ken Sumsion, R-American Fork, and a candidate for governor. "we can determine which ones would be sold".
 
hell I thought it was the american dream to own land? I cant believe there is this many people upset by the state finally getting back what was rightfully theres in the first place. Fed owned land is the most piss poor managed land out there. Between wild horse managment and the grand staircase I think everyone can agree feds are not the best at owning and operating land!
 
Anyone who is saying the state can manage ALL of what the feds manage now is crazy! And don't use what they currently manage as an example of what they would do with the rest, there is no way there is enough money in ANY western state to manage all of what the Feds do let alone do a better job of it.

Unless you want them to overuse natural resources and sell chunks to the rich to be developed and close tons of it off to you and me.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
>hell I thought it was the
>american dream to own land?
>I cant believe there is
>this many people upset by
>the state finally getting back
>what was rightfully theres in
>the first place. Fed owned
>land is the most piss
>poor managed land out there.
>Between wild horse managment and
>the grand staircase I think
>everyone can agree feds are
>not the best at owning
>and operating land!

I guess your one of the guys with the kind of money to buy some of this land.
 
Everyone is that kind of person if thats what they want and dont make excuses why they cant and find reasons they can. I'm not saying I could buy the best or even the average state ground if it were sold but if you want something bad enough and work hard and make sound decisions with what you have anyone can make it happen.
Besides look at states were there is hardly no fed ground, the private land is very reasonable to purchase.
 
I guess I should say that I'm not a big supporter of state run land either but the problem I see is that the people of Utah (or any other state for that matter) don't have enough clout to curb decisions made by the majority of politicians in the liberal states that affect the land right under our noses; example - Grand Staircase. At least we have a say in who gets elected in Utah (more so than we do on the federal level, 4 or 5 electoral votes?) I'm not for buying public land, nor am I for the selling of our resources but if you guys like having some tree hugger in New York closing down a trail, 1,000,000 acre patch of land, or telling you whether you can drill for natural resources in a state they have never set foot in, then by all means support the federal government. We can control those yahoos at the state capital to a certain point (our vote counts). If you think we in Utah can control the Feds with decisions about our land then the Koolaide party has begun.:)


It's always an adventure!!!
 
If I am not mistaken the Grand Staircase was put in place while Bruce Babbit was the Secr. of the Interior. He is from Arizona, so even Westernerns can make decisions that are not in your best interest. I keep hearing various Republican candidates for President say they would like to return Federal lands to the states. I think this would have disatrerous consequences for most hunters as the states start to sell off the land to make up for various budget downfalls that will inevitably happen. While I do not always agree with how the feds manage our lands I cannot think of a state that does it better. Particularly Utah. This state seems to be more susepatble to shady deals than most. Since the Grand Staircase seems to be brought up so much I for one do not feel it is the worst thing in the world. And I work in the energy field, I just dont think every square inch of the the world needs to be developed. Just my two cents.
 
You're right. But Bill Clinton and his liberal buddies from Washington (of which the overwhelming majority were from the Eastern states) were the ones that pushed it through. And while I agree that there should be minimal development on most of these lands we are talking about, I just think it can be more controlled on a state level more closely than a federal level. Granted, I may be wrong but I think you are in more danger of losing hunting with the Feds than you would be with the State. Now that being said, Dax would know a lot about this. He's had an up close and personal show of how a state organization is run and I know if whomever ran state owned land the way the DWR managed our wildife for a while it would be disastrous. So I understand the argument there. I just think we have more of an opportunity to curb any problems on the state level and control what's done with the land. Obviously this is just my redneck opinnion so take it for what it's worth.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
yea terrible Bill Clinton and his liberal buddies, Norma Matheson and a bunch of other Utah people were involved with the Grand Staircase monument, they pushed Clinton to do the right thing because only he had the power to do it. Left up to the locals and that priceless land would have been well on the way to ruination right now. If the states had control, your children won't have near the freedom to enjoy public land that you have today, Its a bigger issue than just yourself and right now.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-12 AT 10:38PM (MST)[p]I wouldn't expect anything different from you piper. Hike up your skirt and grow a pair. Your political dribble is the exact reason I don't go on the political forum. I guess my logic is different than yours. I didn't say that we didn't have people in Utah that did us in on that deal but really? Have you ever been to the Grand Staircase. Tell me just what kind of development would you put in down there? Oh, I foget, you tree huggin liberals can call a pup tent a development can't you.

And it's not about me piper so please don't lecture me on being selfish. I don't have the money to buy land but you go right ahead and trust your federal government buddies. Ahhh, it just hit me. Now I know where you get your name from. You're hero is the Pide Piper. You little follower you!:)


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Bull, Do you honestly believe if Utah was in charge they wouldn't be closing things down too? I know the Feds are experts at F-ing things up. However in this case I truly believe, between the feds and the Utah government, the Feds are the lesser of two evils.



No estas en mexico ahora, entonces escoja tu basura
chancho sucio.
 
Sell all the land GOP!!! Turn the whole state in to a stinking CWMU!!! Thank GOD It's not going anywhere.





2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Piper you think the locals were ruining the GSENM you should take a look at it now with all the damn tourists who go there since it now has a name. Hell you used to only see a few cowboys down in that country and a hippie or two now you see a stream of headlights in rental mini vans cruising down there because now it has a name amazing how that works. Before its inception as a monument hardly anyone went there to stare at the rocks now it is chucked full of people. And dont tell me they dont screw things up and drive off road or refuse to bury their damn toilet paper, start things on fire, throw trash out the window, and not to mention all the deer they now hit with those pretty rental cars. Take a good on the ground look at the GSENM before you shoot your mouth off about somthing you know nothing about. And now you cant even drive a damn fourwheeeler ON A ROAD down there in many places without getting a citation. And by the way most of that prime paunsagaunt MULE DEER winter range is going to hell in a hand basket because they have so many damn rules they cant even run a bullhog or a chain through an area that was once chained and now growing back in thicker than hell with PINYON AND JUNIPER.
 
didn't the locals want a big coal mine, so the would be jobs and lots of growth?
Things change they always have,nothing ever stays the same, If I were to show you where the biggest buck I ever laid my eyes on was you would laugh, its now a Sanpete county ATV super highway.
 
lowcountry. thiers ways of doing something about that pinyon and juniper. we had the same kind of bs,. in northeastern utah,, they told us we couldnt chaine; but onece it had been chined. you could cut the new growth back out. so we did and it has worked great.,,
 
BIG coal mine? Makes me laugh. Come to Wyoming and I will show you a big coal mine. That thing in Utah is nothing more than a sand and gravel operation.

I think many of the locals wanted something to give themselves and their familes a future in that area. Whether the decision to give it national monument status was the right idea is debateable, and I don't claim to have the right answer, but if the best arguement is that it has made it difficult to ride your ATV where every you want or harder to chain PJ forests then I think that is a bit flimsy.
 
>
>Any citizen that enjoys recreating, hunting,
>fishing, trapping on public lands
>should be scared to death
>by this. This will
>not end well for sportsmen,
>at least not for the
>average sportsmen. Rich guys might
>do all right if they
>can pay more for a
>hunting lease than the land
>is worth to the oil,
>cattle, timber, mining barons.
>
>Worst idea I have heard in
>ages. Do we need
>some reform on how the
>feds run things? Absolutely.
> Do we need to
>give some shortsighted pandering extremist
>local politicians absolute power to
>control these lands? Absolutely
>NOT.
>
>Dax


I'm with you, Dax. Horrible idea. I agree that we don't need more wilderness and land grabs by feds who have never stepped foot in Utah but on the other hand we do NOT need the state running the lands. Everything would be raped and pillaged, sold and stripped in no time at all.
 
We (Utah) won't get it back for one huge reason... Those lands have been used as colateral for everything we are borrowing from China...

I, like many here, am torn on the issue. I'd much prefer that Utah have control of the land, but I DO NOT want it sold to the highest bidder... Use the resources, but don't sell the land...


"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
Mulecreek- I live in Wyoming, There is plenty of coal here, the billion or so dollars worth of coal down there isn't needed by the country, it was just so the locals could have growth, and with growth you get change, its an age old story, preservation vs development.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 09:12AM (MST)[p]Piper if you call 3500 acres of mine in a 500,000 acre parcel of land creating a few hundred well paying jobs in two county's which many people who live there are as close to poor as you can get. Especiall since your hippie lib buddies shut down the logging industry years ago. Now the mountains are beetle ravaged and gone to hell. Many people work two and three tourist type jobs to get by. 3500 acres of desolate land in a 500,000 acre parcel. Dude your way off base come down and enjoy the trash and toilet paper ridden super well traveled roads Thanks.

Elkun lop and scatter is OK but it would be a bandaide here. These trees are new growth oblivously however they are not 4 and 5 feet tall (these chainings were done in the early 1950's most are now big matture trees the chaining would be cheap easy and effective, but god forbid a tire hits the ground out there. The bull hog would be great and things would look pretty, but god forbid a tire hits the ground in a chaining. A chainsaw will work but be costly and leave alot of dead trees on the ground for the next 50 years. But ill take even a saw at this point but thats a money issue. They have done a little saw work out there but at the rate the GSENM is going it would take 50 years to complete every old chaining in that country.

Im for utilizing the land and this can be done in a responsible manner but to sell any of this public land even one square inch to the highest bidder. Ill hang with hippies on that any day and fight it to the bitter end. NOT FOR SALE. Resources yes land in general hell no.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 09:36AM (MST)[p]>didn't the locals want a big
>coal mine, so there would
>be jobs and lots of
> growth?

Yes- and the proposal died as soon as Pres Clinton designated 2 million acres of land in Utah the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument. It was a land grab and a huge victory for environmentalists even though most locals and state officials and the Governor all wanted the mine.

That's why a lot of locals have a hard trusting the Federal government when it comes to lands in our state. I understand everyone's concerns and I agree. But, I do not trust Utah officials to be good stewards of the land either. It's one of those things where one needs to get active politically on a local level and make sure your rep hears your voice and hope you can trust in him/her to represent the interests of the majority of your area.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 09:37AM (MST)[p]>Piper if you call 3500 acres
>of mine in a 500,000
>acre parcel of land creating
>a few hundred well paying
>jobs in two county's which
>many people who live there
>are as close to poor
>as you can get. Especiall
>since your hippie lib buddies
>shut down the logging industry
>years ago. Now the mountains
>are beetle ravaged and gone
>to hell. Many people work
>two and three tourist type
>jobs to get by. 3500
>acres of desolate land in
>a 500,000 acre parcel. Dude
>your way off base come
>down and enjoy the trash
>and toilet paper ridden super
>well traveled roads Thanks.
>

Lowcountry feels the pain of the death of the Kaibab timber industry, I assume. Correct? That is what started the mistrust of the Federal Government in Southern Utah. It was good ol' boys vs. tree huggers from then on. And that mine proposal had been a fight in Southern Utah for over 20 years when the Grand Staircase was designated. There were a lot of fights over grazing rights on federal lands as well and don't even get folks started on the desert tortoise issue in Southern Utah.

When people see the death of jobs and industry it's disheartening, discouraging and people feel let down by their government. At the same time, though, somebody has got to look out for the land. There HAS to be some conservation...but not to an extreme- just as there can't be an extreme in the use of the land- it can't be a free-for-all sell off and rape & pillage permit issuance. Did we need a full 2 million acres in that Grand Staircase Escalante Natl' Monument? Probably not. Could we have spared the Kaiparowits part of the plan? Maybe so. I don't know, but the fact is, Utahns were not given a choice. Our voices were not heard. Politicians heard the voices of the environmental groups who wanted to lock up all the lands as wilderness to prevent pretty much everything but foot travel on them and that is what Utah politicians are trying to stop.

Awholelottabull does have a good point when he says it would be better and much easier to control decisions on a state basis, but I still have trust issues, myself. I don't want to see our lands raped and pillaged to the oil and gas industry. It's happening right now in the Bookcliffs and it breaks my heart.

It's what puts food on my table though and as of now I am still able to enjoy most of the Bookcliffs so I'm still on the fence. Even though the camping/hunting spot my family has enjoyed for over 60 years out there is now under lease by an oil shale mining company from Estonia and the changes are already apparent (and frankly I am not expecting to be able to enjoy that particular part of the Bookcliffs ever again) and the land around that mine will be/is being strip mined...I'm still hopeful that there can be balance and the whole area won't be ruined. There will be reclamation, but it will never look as it does now. But- my family prospers and right now the trade-off isn't bad. I just don't want to see it all disappear and all access be cut off.

Double edged sword. Just need to figure out which edge is less sharp, huh?

Lowcountry said "Im for utilizing the land and this can be done in a responsible manner but to sell any of this public land even one square inch to the highest bidder. Ill hang with hippies on that any day and fight it to the bitter end. NOT FOR SALE. Resources yes land in general hell no." and I'll probably be right there with you.
 
I wouldnt say I personally felt the pain of the kaibab timber industry, but I know many people who did. Many of those people are the same ones working two and three tourist type jobs to put food on the table and that isnt a bright future. Fight over grazing rights on th GSENM? I dont think there was much of a fight the cowboys just got the shaft. And yeah many down here do feel betrayed by the federal government. I for one would'nt trust a state represenative with a warm cup of piss eithier though. And I truly believe they would sell, sell, sell!

I agree with you we can have our cake and eat it too. But there has to be limits. I dont want the land raped and pillaged by any means but it truly sucks when very little (less than one percent) can be utilized or maintained.
 
there are no easy answers, and very few win-win situations. I grew up in a gold mining boom area, and now live in a gas drilling boom area, with the growth there comes changes, most of the developments aren't good for wildlife and hunting, and thats putting it lightly if your a trophy hunter. I have seen a ton of changes over the last 40 years, and in reality thats not a very long time, maybe thats why I am biased towards preservation.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 12:04PM (MST)[p]I'm torn on this issue and I haven't fully decided a postion on this but I think selling the land might be a deal breaker for me. I think UT would gradually sell it off. A thousand acres here and a thousand there would add up. Having bad restrictions on public land is the lesser evil vs the land not being public anymore.
 
Seriously?? Utah State Parks are to the point of closing
in a lot of cases. In one case they auction a tag for a pet mule deer and ram to pay the bills. Are these the guys you want to trust with these lands we all have access to??

We can't get any tax funding to keep these parks open but we'll take the public's money to subsidize golf courses??

I know $$ What $$ that $$ $mells like and it ain't representing
THE constituents. It's representing certain constituents.

Mix in the oil and gas industry that are working under 20% of what they currently hold leases on and the big money in campaign
funding they bring and ya'll tell me who is going to get represented at the state level.

God ain't coming down to make any more Earth. Short term it's a boom. Five years from now, not so much.




2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Holy Sh!t I didnt know Utah especially in the hunting community had so many federal gov loving/rich guy hating/poor me liberal crybabies! Any time the state,county, or city can get out from under the federal governments thumb DO IT! I have more faith in getting things done at the state level than I do at the federal level. I think these people that dont want the land back just dont want the responsability. Just let the government do it right. With more freedom comes more responsability and some people would just as soon not be bothered with it. No wonder this country has high unemployment, everyone wants to just let the government handle everything.
 
If you don't trust your local legislators as "stewards" of the land, here's an idea.....vote for new ones. Try that on the national level and see where it gets you. State control over federal every time.
 
Thats how it works, after the land gets sold vote in a new batch of corrupt local politicians. Im a fan of Teddy Roosevelt and there is just as much reasoning behind what he did back then as there is now.
 

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