Vegas shooting at Costco

A

Antlers_Ink

Guest
Did any of you guys hear about this story?

Erik Scott was a graduate from West Point, a CCP holder, had military training, and was a stand up guy from what a lot of people are saying. All of the information is not in yet so to completely pass judgement may be a bit premature, but to have a guy gunned down by the police over a small disturbance in the store is unbelievable.

One story said he was opening water bottle packages in the store and threw a few on the ground and put the others in his cart or in his cooler to see if they would fit. When he bent over appearently an employee saw his concealed weapon (which he had a permit for) and called the police. The manager ordered him out of the store for damaging merchandise and said no guns are allowed on Costco premises. An argument took place between the manager and Erik Scott. It was later found out that the manager is a Green Beret and does carry concealed.


The relayed info to the police was that they had a person in the store acting erratic and going brezerk and he had a gun. Costco tried to evacuate the store as the police showed up. As Erik came out of the store, some witnesses said the cops were giving him different commands to follow. One cop said put the gun down and other cop said get down on the ground. Metro police said he pointed the gun at them so they fired. His girlfriend was right there with him when it happened. Others said he was complying by lifting up his shirt to show them his weapon and they shot him. When things happen so fast I'm sure your going to get a bit different stories from several eye witnesses. The bottom line is...... where is the videotape? Costco has cameras in the store and outside on the perimiter. In fact one report said there is a camera that pointed right where the shooting took place. It's been over two weeks now and many are wondering if the video will ever come forward. Certainly if it looks bad for the LVPD there's no way in hell they're going to release the video content or at least alter the hell out of it.

Three officers fired 7 rounds into the victim. The family is now paying for several billboards around the city to have eyewitnesses come forward. They are probably going to file a civil lawsuit.
Why wasn't a tazer used? Especially in this situation instead of deadly force? You hate to think the men in blue were trigger happy, but what info did they have when they arrived at the call?

Some speculate that the employee who made the 911 call made it sound like they had a madman on the loose. Did that put the cops in the frame of mind to have an itchy trigger finger?

Are the cops in vegas a bunch of thugs that are out of control?
Some of the residents think so.

It's just a shame when things like this happen. I just hope the full unedited video comes forward so they can get a better idea of what happened.

Here's the link

http://www.8newsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12801643
 
Wow. I shopped in there very same store probably a few hundred times.

The police in Vegas have a very bad reputation for shooting and asking questions later. Whether the reputaton is earned or not, is open to debate. I can say that it seemed like Metro had at least one questionable shooting every month like clockwork when I was still living there.

Like Robert Deniro told Joe Pesci in the movie Casino..."These cops don't F-around out here. They are cowboys. They'll bury you in the desert."
 
Talking with a contractor that I plumb for, he said the guy was putting his gun on the ground and was taken out. This contractor's neighbor rents a house to the guy that was shot.
Vegas Polizy immediately went to the house and locked it up, his family can't even get into their son's house to gather up his belongings. Shooting happens at Costco and they lock up the house of the deceased? Something don't smell right.
 
You guys are being arm chair quarterbacks with no clues as how these investigations are done and the time span it involves.

Just set back and let the facts come out before you jump to conclusions that may proove to be false. For the ones that do not trust the local cops, the family of the deceased has the right to request the FBI to conduct an investigation to see if any violations took place "under the color of law", on depriving that person's rights as the result of shooting him.

We had a similar shooting here a month ago where members of my Son's shift had to shoot and kill a 63 year old grandma who was a sister to a superior court judge.

Numerous arm chair quarterbacks made some very strong anti cop statements about it had to be a bad shooting based on infro they got from rumors and the womans family.

They ended up eating their words when the investigation was completed and the woman had used a shotgun to threaten a census worker with the shotgun and pointed the shotgun at the cops and failed several commands to put the gun down as she stood in the doorway of her house. After the toxicology tests were completed, took about three weeks for the results, it was found that she was under the influence of drugs.

As for sealing the house, that is a common procedure to do while getting a search warrant to look for evidence that may indicate why this person may have engage in his behavior that led to him being shot.

So set back and wait for the results and base your complaints on facts and not rumors. All you are doing is showing that you may be anti cop or prone to flying off the handle on hearsay rumors.

RELH
 
Just sit back and let the facts come out..........would be great advice and even wisdom.....except that the chance of getting the truth, when police (again) do something like this is just as likely as getting the truth from Harry Reed or Pelosi.

I lived in Nevada for a while.....things similar (where any common sense would have avoided shooting) were continuous.

(No...I'm no liberal. I'm a farm kid from S. Idaho, retired banker and even LDS....about as conservative as it gets. I've just done years worth of homework on this stuff.)



Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
There have been a few questionable shootings by LV cops.

I wonder what % of shooting civilians happens in LV when compared to the total across USA?

http://www.lvrj.com/news/affidavit-errors-raise-questions-98905769.html?numComments=31

http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/10298342.html

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...se+killed+Henry+Rowe&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://www.lvrj.com/news/man-did-not-pull-gun-on-police-at-costco--lawyer-says-98279344.html

http://www.8newsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=4909076





Compromise, hell! ... If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?
 
I think some of you people watch too many movies where miracles happen and no one dies. Not that way in the real world. I often wonder how many of you would react if faced with the same circumstances.

You may be surprised on some proven hard facts involving shootings. I can put you in the role of the cop and have you pointing a gun at me while ordering me to drop my gun.

I will be standing 10 yards from you with my gun in my hand down by my leg with barrel pointed to floor.

Once I have made the decision to kill you, you are dead because I will get off the first shot and it will be in your head.

Do not believe me! Do a research involving reaction time to a perceived deadly threat and find out the time involved from seeing the threat and the time it takes you to react to it by just pulling the trigger on your gun. I do not have that reaction time delay because I have made my decision to shoot and you have the delay involved after seeing me bring my gun up in a rapid motion and firing that gun less then 2/10s of a second.

Some of you guys would be dead cops if you play by the rules you have implied on these posts.

Sounds like to me that LVPD is getting some good training on how to react to a dangeous threat and being able to stop that threat and not have the officer die as some of you would have it.

Now ask yourself this question, why was his gun outside his holster as stated on several of the above posts.

Based on his background as given in the first post, he should have had enough common sense not to touch that gun when confronted by the cops and raise his hands and go to the ground as ordered. The second he put his hand on that gun, he signed his death warrant under our laws of justifiable deadly force!!!

Feddoc on your link to what the lawyer said, there appears to be a witness that states the suspect did in fact draw a gun from a gun pouch after officers told him to drop to the ground. Just because other persons did not see it, is very common. Ever ask ten people what color was the car in a drive by shooting. You will get about 4-6 different colors from the ten people.

As for your question about police shootings, they are up due to the use of heavy narcotics and several other factors. The good part is that now due to better training the cops have improved their scores for winning the gun fights. We have had about 6 officer involved shootings in our surrounding area in the past year.

RELH
 
Not sure what your rules are for a ccw, but in common sense land and Nevada, you do not touch your weapon. You keep your hands as far away from it as possible. You TELL the officers you are carrying, do not show it to them.

Then you follow their instructions to the exact letter. Not real hard to figure out.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-10 AT 01:54PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-10 AT 01:23?PM (MST)

I went back and re-read the posts in this thread and not once did I see where someone, as RELH put it,

"Sounds like to me that LVPD is getting some good training on how to react to a dangeous threat and being able to stop that threat and not have the officer die as some of you would have it."

Nobody in their right mind wants an officer to die. But, nobody in their right mind wants an innocent citizen to die either.

Also on one of the links provided were witness who stated that no gun was drawn. I guess, as some have stated, the facts will be known soon enough; perhaps with the release of the COSTCO recording.

RELH said this: Based on his background as given in the first post, he should have had enough common sense not to touch that gun when confronted by the cops and raise his hands and go to the ground as ordered. The second he put his hand on that gun, he signed his death warrant under our laws of justifiable deadly force!!!"


What if he, as at least one witness stated, he was ordered by a cop to put the gun on the ground. Is is still justifiable force?????????????


I suppose release of the tape would answer a lot of questions.


On edit, more witnesses not only saying they didn't see a gun, but saying he did not draw.


http://www.lvrj.com/news/slaying-of-army-veteran-shocks-friends-98223884.html





Compromise, hell! ... If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?
 
Did you ever stop to think that maybe one officer did yell for him to put the gun down because he did in fact have a gun in his hand that was seen by that officer. And maybe, just maybe he failed to follow that instruction.

That would indicate to me that he did draw a gun from somewhere, his person or the backpack he had. Ask yourself why any rational sane person would draw a gun, that was concealed by all accounts given, when approached by uniform cops unless he had mental issues, or was up to no good, or just plain stupid?

You armchair quarterbacks need to cool your anti cop retoric until the investigation is completed. Is that too much to ask of any fair minded citzen? At lease I hope you are fair minded, I have seen where some are not when they get on their stump to preach.

RELH
 
>Excuse us RELH, but sounds to
>me like you are on
>a stump preaching......


X2

RELH:

You are going against your own advice: Speculating about the victim and jumping to conclusions. Hopefully, the truth will come out...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-10 AT 04:21PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-10 AT 04:17?PM (MST)

Where, exactly, is any anti-cop rhetoric? That is twice you have mentioned this....where are the statements which make it so?

Assuming your first sentence is true, and he was complying with orders, why was he shot?

WRT to your question regarding why a sane, rational person would draw a gun, please refer to the first sentence above this paragraph. Maybe, just maybe, one of the cops said put the weapon down.

You should follow your own advice about speculation.

As was said before, the video (along with autopsy results) might reveal the truth.







Compromise, hell! ... If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?
 
Fine with me. I will not preach any more. You armchair quarterbacks carry on with your ASSumtions while not being there and having not gotten all the facts. As for the anti cop slant, re-read the posts and figure that one out for your selfs.

RELH
 
And you to RELH, are free to carry on with your ASSumptions as well while not being there and having not gotten all the facts.
After spending a lifetime in law Enforcement, RELH, I wonder if you have never met a cop that has been unjustified in killing someone.
Please understand that I am not questioning your LEO experience nor your integrity, rather I will thank you for your service as one.
;-)
 
Relh, pot callin the kettle black? You ever think you might be doing the same thing....armchair quarterbackin for your beloved badge? I've never once ever heard anything objective from you on anything to do with the cops....always guilty and justified.....god save the police. Cops are no more than employees to the citizens of this country and some of you forget that.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-10 AT 06:29PM (MST)[p]Kinda tough to figure out where anyone is 'anti cop' when you can't/won't point out those posts. Arm chair quarterback...maybe not since you have no idea what I do for a living. Anti-cop, not hardly. I just want the truth, like anyone else who reads of a killing like this.

And as far as your 'ASSumptions and not being there and not having all the facts....well, apply that to yourself.






Compromise, hell! ... If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?
 
While we are making assumptions and adding or taking away pieces of the story let me ask you this.

Would the situation be any different if the man shot was a young man, no specific race but looked like a gang banger. Same situation like you say where he followed directions to a Tee and still was shot. Would you side with the guy or the officer? Or would you wait until all the facts come out?

How would it change your opinion if the media painted it in one way or another, kinda like politics. Would you do your research and form your own opinion or would you follow and belive everything you hear from coworkers and tv? Because we all know you can believe every word that come from tv or someone elses mouth.

Innocent until proven guilty. IF the officer(s) were at fault they will suffer the consequences. IF the man was at fault then the officers did their job and kept evryone safe.

Something to think about....

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
+ 4 RELH
I don't know the guy that was shot but for all the people that
say he was a great guy I am sure he was.But the question I have is why did he do what he was doing in Costco and why did he feel in necesary to carry his gun into Costco because that Costco is a pretty wild place(not)and with his fine West Point schooling you think he would know better than to do what he did be it point the gun or whatever he did.And I bet the whole thing would be alot different if this guy had shot someone in Costco.As far as with Metro I feel if you are stupid enough not to obey the police commands and point a gun at them You are going to get shot.They are doing there job so if they did not shot him and then in turn he shoots someone all you guys would be bitchin and crying about how Metro didn't do there job.So yes let the investigation run it's course and then we will know what really happened.I shop in that Costco Every week and don't feel it necesary to carry my gun with me but makes you think with even
people like that out there maybe I should.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-10 AT 11:26PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-10 AT 11:16?PM (MST)

Feddoc;

I was going to leave this along as I stated above until you issued a challege by stating "Where is anyone "anti-cop" you can't/won't point out those posts.

Here is your lesson in basic reading comprehension that you seem to have a lack of.

Antlers-ink posted:

certainly it looks bad for LVPD there is no way in hell they're going to release the video tape or at lease alter the hell out of it.

My reading comprehension tells me that antlers-ink has already convicted the LVPD of a coverup or will doctor the evidence without any benefit of facts or trial.

HillbillyNnevada posted;

Police in Vegas have a very bad reputation for shooting and asking questions later.

He also posted; Metro had at lease one questable shooting every month when I was living there.

Why do you not ask HillbillyNnevada to give you the facts that will support him making that statement. I bet he will not be able to do it on a MOMENTS NOTICE and name the incidents and what took place and present facts to back it up without resorting to the old rumor mill.

gb22 posted;

Except the chance of getting the truth, when police do something like this is just as likly as getting the truth from Harry Reid or Pelosi.

Gee! another mass conspiracy coverup thought by that post!

Buttshot: I almost left him out. His statement about "something does not smell right" due to him hearing from his contractor third hand, that the cops sealed the suspects house and will not let anyone in. Yea right, let everyone in to conceal evidence or distroy it to protect their relative.

Feddoc, I do not know where or even if you ever have taken courses in reading comprehension, but any average person with just basic 101 reading comprehension will tell you that those statements are very strong in their anti cop slanting. in fact they are outright slander and libel in nature.

Maybe someone better hope that the cop or cops involved are better persons and not sue crazy like some citizens for having their reputation slandered on a public forum like this. It is one thing to say someone is a idiot or poor leader or not always truthful, but to accuse them and their department of outright criminal conduct without facts to proof it is a different thing altogether.

RELH
 
Let's not forget RELH's armchair quarterback comments:

"Did you ever stop to think that maybe one officer did yell for him to put the gun down because he did in fact have a gun in his hand that was seen by that officer. And maybe, just maybe he failed to follow that instruction."
"That would indicate to me that he did draw a gun from somewhere, his person or the backpack he had. Ask yourself why any rational sane person would draw a gun, that was concealed by all accounts given, when approached by uniform cops unless he had mental issues, or was up to no good, or just plain stupid?"

The cops can do no wrong mentality.

I will say one thing. I don't have all the facts, but for a guy to be plowed under with 7 rounds for a small disturbance in the store is problematic. Especially with all the eye witness reports that don't match up with the Metro police dept. Your right I am biased on this one, and I do think it stinks to high hell. I don't believe all cops are bad, just some of them forget that they are public servants and their little man syndrome is exhibited in a few of them.

Many people say they have a real problem in Las Vegas with their runaway cops. Maybe you don't remember the problems they've had in Chicago with dirty cops not too long ago. Practically the whole damn force was corrupt including the Chief. It's hard to breakup an orgainzed gang like that with that much power. I certainly want to see where this case ends up for everyone involved.
 
Antlers-Ink;

I am very well aware of dirty cops, I have put a few away and got a few more fired while working Internal Affairs investigations as a detective. As for Chicago, if you look back on my posts in the political forum you will see that I made a comment about city goverment there has been very corrupt in that city ever since Al Capone. I can name you at lease four other departments in other states I would not ever consider working for as I feel there is too much corruption within those departments. Las Vegas Nevada is not one of them either.

Recheck the links and I think you will find that the PD has at lease two people that stated they saw the guy draw a gun on the officers. Being a retired cop, I also know that the PD will not release any infromation until the intire investigation is completed. This is standard procedure due to laws in effect that prevent them from disclosing certain information involving internal investigations of their officers involved in that shooting

In fact there is at lease two investigation going on in that incident. One will be a criminal investigation and the other will be the Internal Affairs investigation to determine if the officers acted within the law and THEIR DEPARTMENT RULES AND REGULATIONS. The bad result of these laws and procedures is that it makes some members of the public feel there is a coverup going on because the police admin will not give out infromation during the course of the investigation. During that time rumors will fly unchecked until the department releases their investigation results to the press, which allows the press to check into further if they seem to think it is needed.

Most times the press will bury it on back pages because it is no longer front page news and some of those citizens do not see the outcome but remember those rumors they heard when the incident was fresh.

So the fact the guy was hit by 7 rounds bother you. That tells me you have never been in a shooting involving more then one shooter. This goes for both cops and military actions.
If you have a incident like this where one guy does something to make several officers feel they are in danger. Several things will happen in a blink of a eye. The first officer to perceive he is about to be killed will open fire, the other officers will follow suit due to human nature and training until the threat goes down.

Cops are trained to fire mutiple shots until the threat is no longer a threat. Unlike the movies, the first bullet does not knock the guy off his feet 95 % of the time, but in the time span of several seconds, maybe 2-3 seconds, two or three officers firing will fire at lease 6-9 shots at the suspect. They are trained to stop firing when he goes down or drops his weapon and is no longer a threat to their safety.

I have seen cases where the suspect took 4-5 rounds in the chest and one or two in the back. Citizens accused the officers of finishing the guy off by shooting him in the back after he fell or was running away. What really happen they were rapid firing taps into his chest and instead of falling straight down, the suspect was spun around by the chest shots and the officer's reaction time did not allow them to stop those final last rounds after seeing the guy was not a threat. We are talking fractions of a second here.

Officers used to train firing double taps at their adversary or target. We no longer train that way. We now use what is called the "zipper". Two fast double taps to the midsection or chest and a final tap to the head in the event he is not down due to wearing a bullet resistant vest. Most well trained officers can deliver those three shots in a time span of less then 2 seconds.

I will admit that I have had more training then most officers due to being a competive shooter and law enforcement firearms instructor. I still shoot IDPA matches today with my son who is a also a LEO firearms instructor. I and my son both can draw our 45 acp pistols on a signal with hands chest high and engage 7 metal targets at 10-15 yards and drop all targets under 3.5 seconds, and I know other cops that can beat that. If that had been one person, how many bullets would he have in him by the time he dropped in those few seconds.

Maybe that will give you a insight on why numerous suspects have gone down with their bodies riddled with bullets. We are training that way due to too many officers losing their life in shootouts using the old training metholds.

I am glad to hear that you do not think all cops are bad, I know for a fact they are not. We do have a few bad apples that give the good ones a bad name also. One reason why citizens should always demand from their local goverment to keep high standards in hiring the officers that they do hire. Lower those entrance standards and you end up with a higher percentage of bad cops or just lazy cops who only look at the job as a paycheck while doing the lease amount of work to collect that paycheck.

Yes I have seen those cops that you call having the little man syndrome. In the trade we call it the "John Wayne" syndrome. Another reason a good psychology test should be part of the hiring standards to weed those guys out. Sometimes they get weeded out or change when someone shoves that sharp pointed badge up their gazoo.

Yes you are somewhat biased. I am also very biased when I see citizens trying to put a bad label on cops when it has not been proven yet that they deserve it. I served with honor and believed in the motto "To Protect and to Serve" and when someone unjustly label a cop as dishonest or heavy handed without facts to back it up, they have tarnished everything I and other good cops have stood for and I do not take it very lightly.

RELH
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-10 AT 06:50AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-10 AT 04:44?AM (MST)

Nothing like attacking the messenger when you can't win an argument.

Reading comprehension...or just a disagreement what is 'cop bashing'?

Too bad you had to resort to those tactics.

Too bad you failed to mention the various witness statements which indicated he did not draw his gun and instead lifted his shirt.

Too bad you failed to comment on the links I posted which indicated some other questionable LV cop shootings.

I think overall cops have a crappy job to do in at least one sense... cops can't always tell who the bad guy is/was. The guy/girl at the domestic...good guy or bad guy? The routine traffic stops aren't routine. The grandma shooting you mentioned. I did 2 years of my enlisted time on shore patrol and saw all of that (except the grandma shooting) and more. Been puked on, name called, shot at, stabbed and threatened..BTDT in the 70's.


On edit, I wonder why Metro PD would release a statement saying that Scott was acting erratically in the store.....yet also say there was a technical glitch contained somewhere within the recording media. How do they know that he was acting erratically without viewing the tapes?


I really do hope at least two things happen: 1. Release of the 911 call and 2. Release of the video.




>LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-10
>AT 11:26?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-10
>AT 11:16?PM (MST)
>
>Feddoc;
>
.........
>
>Antlers-ink posted:
>
>certainly it looks bad for LVPD
>there is no way in
>hell they're going to release
>the video tape or at
>lease alter the hell out
>of it.
>
>My reading comprehension ( NO it is more likely your opinion)tells me that
>antlers-ink has already convicted the
>LVPD of a coverup or
>will doctor the evidence without
>any benefit of facts or
>trial.
>
>HillbillyNnevada posted;
>
>Police in Vegas have a very
>bad reputation for shooting and
>asking questions later. (they do have that reputation)
>
>He also posted; Metro had
>at lease one questable shooting
>every month when I was
>living there.
>
>Why do you not ask HillbillyNnevada
>to give you the facts
>that will support him making
>that statement. (BECAUSE it is his opinion)
I bet he
>will not be able to
>do it on a MOMENTS
>NOTICE and name the
>incidents and what took place
>and present facts to back
>it up without resorting to
>the old rumor mill.
>
>gb22 posted;
>
>Except the chance of getting the
>truth, when police do something
>like this is just as
>likly as getting the truth
>from Harry Reid or Pelosi.
>
>
>Gee! another mass conspiracy coverup thought
>by that post!
>
>Buttshot: I almost left him out.
>His statement about "something does
>not smell right" due to
>him hearing from his contractor
>third hand, that the cops
>sealed the suspects house and
>will not let anyone in.
>Yea right, let everyone in
>to conceal evidence or distroy
>it to protect their relative. (GEE, not everyone on this board knows what happens during an investigation.)
>
>
>Feddoc, I do not know where
>or even if you ever
>have taken courses in reading
>comprehension, but any average person
>with just basic 101 reading
>comprehension will tell you that
>those statements are very strong
>in their anti cop slanting.
>in fact they are outright
>slander and libel in nature. (WELL, I notice you spend more time attacking the messenger than attacking the message. If you feel so strongly about the libel/slander nature, then by all means hire a lawyer for LVPD.)
>
>
> Maybe someone better hope that
>the cop or cops involved
>are better persons and not
>sue crazy like some citizens
>for having their reputation slandered
>on a public forum like
>this. It is one thing
>to say someone is a
>idiot or poor leader or
>not always truthful, but to
>accuse them and their department
>of outright criminal conduct without
>facts to proof it is
>a different thing altogether.
>
>
>
> RELH
>


Compromise, hell! ... If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?
 
Feddoc;

I was not trying to win an argument. I was jsut pointing out how bias and unfair some of you are. You still have poor reading comprehension since you missed the part about the statments given to LVPD about his behavior.


RELH
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-10 AT 09:26AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-10 AT 09:25?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-10 AT 09:24?AM (MST)

Uh, no, not really. I actually read them. In your rush to judgement about those with whom you have a disagreement, it would appear as though you have made an error.
>Feddoc;
>
> I was not trying
>to win an argument. I
>was jsut pointing out how
>bias and unfair some of
>you are. You still have
>poor reading comprehension since you
>missed the part about the
>statments given to LVPD about
>his behavior.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> RELH


Compromise, hell! ... If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?
 
I certainly don't know the facts and I'm sure nobody else on here does either. But this much I do know in todays world the single biggest mistake anybody can make is to pull a gun on the cops. You do that and they're never going to take a chance with innocent bystanders standing around. They're going to put you down. If it's you and them in a confined area you may get a little more time but you better demonstrate that you're not taking steps to point that weapon at anyone to do harm. If it was in his belt it should have stayed there and all he had to do was raise his arms and lay down because nobody's ever been shot with a holstered weapon except the carrier. In the first place the guy or the Costco MGR shouldn't have allowed it to get to that point. IN CCW class the first thing they teach you to assess the situation and defuse the situation if at all possible w/o pulling your weapon by leaving.

People in todays world are just more than a little apprehensive when they see anybody carring a weapon and have a tendency to overreact to the situation and that incites panic. I'm not finding fault with the guy but he should have defused the situation and left or verballized that he was going to take his weapon to the car and leave and the manager would have escorted him out before all the hubbub started and somebody called the cops. Police are trained to use deadly force when threatened but when civilians can be harmed any aggressive move with or toward a firearm is going to get your ticket punched. How would the public react if the cops were there and this guy started shooting civilians? They'd have hung the cops. This is a tragedy for sure and yes you are correct that it should/may have been handled differently. The law enforcement personel involved have to provide for the safety of others and that will not be compromised by any law enforcement agency do to all the mass shootings that have occurred but to say they were wrong when the man had his gun drawn by using lethal force in a publc place may be overreacting on our part. It's sad that it came to that.
 
Boskee,
Finally someone hit the nail on the head.
Very well put I agree with you 1000%
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-05-10 AT 11:41AM (MST)[p]http://summerlin.8newsnow.com/content/police-radio-recordings-reveal-chaos-costco-shooting

"Scott's family and multiple witnesses say that Scott did not have a gun in his hand as police shot him. Scott was a medical supply salesman and West Point graduate."

"Over the radio, you can hear the officer make the shot's fired call and then ask for medical units. The officer then says, "He pulled a 413 and pointed it at my direction." That "413" the officer refers to is police code for a firearm."

Who to believe?...witnesses say he had a gun, witnesses say he didn't have a gun.

Towards the middle of the page is a link to a police recording (Metro traffic).


http://www.8newsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=12879959

Police were summoned to the store after employees say Scott was destroying merchandise and acting erratically. Other witnesses say Scott was placing water bottles in a backpack to see if they fit. Employees eventually evacuated the store. Scott was confronted by police as he left the building.



Really conflicts with this from the first link: Minutes before, employees at Costco called 911 about Scott. According to the radio recordings, Metro was told Scott was acting erratic and throwing merchandise on the ground.
Metro dispatchers told officers in the field that Scott was possibly on drugs, and may have been suffering from excited delirium. The radio recording shows what officers were hearing about Scott's state of mind.
"He's throwing merchandise around. He's still in aisle 126 in the camping area. Break. Appears fidgety. A female joined the male. She's described as Hispanic, 30's, black long hair, wearing black tank and blue jeans," said the dispatcher.




Compromise, hell! ... If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?
 
From my experience there are no winners in any shooting just survivors that will have to deal with what accured the rest of there life. One thing everyone need to think about is that everyones perception of what occured is different. You can have 100 witnesses at a shooting and there is going to be 100 different accounts of the details of what occured. Yes most will be close but not the same, there are too many factors that affect peoples perception not to mention their ablility to recollect it all several hours later when questioned.

anyway there are good COPS and bad COPS just as there are good citizens and bad citizens. There are also good decision and bad ones.

When you have 1 second to react in a situation, do you think you can always make a totaly perfect decision? Most likely not but you look at the facts at hand and make the best decision you can in that 1 second you have.

I hate to judge any incident unless I have all the facts at hand. Its an unfortunate situation for both sides and Im not saying that anyone did any thing wroung. Just saying don't judge until you have all the facts.

All in all you have 1 second to save a life, yours, the subjects and all the people around you at the time. which one?

TUFF JOB I THINK
 
Well it is only obvious to me what is happening here. Shooting in broad daylight in a crowded area, bad radio communication, police won't release the video tapes and the 911 call, cancelled inquest... the "MAN" wanted this guy dead. Police were just pawns in the whole thing. It is very clear that this was a blatant assassination against a former or current black ops agent. It may sound like this is too Hollywood of and explanation, and that there is no conspiracy behind it. Well, think again, or don't. Just hide your collective heads in the sand and and wait your turn.



?Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by the sense of touch, because everyone can see, but only a few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are, and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion.? Niccolo Machiavelli
 
Don't be an idiot. Don't really think you are even a hunter by your spear hunter post. Make up what ever you would like and post it. Good typical behavior for you.
 
RELH;

Man, I don't know why you play this b/s game with these little

boys. Ya I know it's like pulling the wings of a fly, something to do.

Keep up the good fight, I, at least, still respect the law enforcement officers who keep me safe at night.

Enjoy the fall, my friend.

Steve Cheuvront
 
Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. I am not on the road but safe in a jail lol. Seems like unless you are faced with split second decisions you really do not know what it's like to be in our shoes. Every use of force has an evaluation. I have seen officer's fired for wrong doing. So to you that think we are bullet proof you are sadly mistaken. We are held to a higher standard !!! Let there be no mistake !!!
 
Rugarm77;

Don't sweat these little boys, they squat 2 p, so, forget

them, they are just talking tough, to impress their friends.

I will bet a case of beer, not one of these big mouths, have had a shot fired at them in anger.

I, myself am just a little frady cat, won't you save me you big strong man???

Stevie pooh
 
The coroners inquest is happening live on KLAS Channel 8 wesite .Pretty interesting !!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-23-10 AT 07:19PM (MST)[p]What???

"Four computer technician experts were called to testify on their attempts to retrieve the video from Costco's surveillance camera computer. They testified the computer hard drive was damaged." Oh.................how convenient!!


You knew damn well they weren't going to release the video tape.
I want to hear more abot this tidbit of information.

Metro has their smear campaign in high gear. They're making the guy sound like he's a violent offender.

If you listen to the 911 call the shots sure are fired quickly after the commands are given. Sure would like to see the video tape to see what really happened.

Sorry RELH I think your boys out there in Vegas were trigger happy.

Link:

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13205712/second-day-of-erik-scotts-coroners-inquest-begins



Allphotosonthecamera3093.jpg
 
This is what I have learned from doing a simple web search for the news on the shooting.

The tox screen on Scott's body has shown he had very high levels of prescribed Xanax and morphine. Both are very powerful narcotic drugs.

He was getting his prescribed drugs from three different doctors, and two of the doctors agreed on the stand that his level of drugs indicated he was taking more drugs then was called for in his prescriptions.

As a ex-narcotic officer, I am aware that when a person is using more then one doctor to get class 111 drugs is indictative of a severe drug problem use.

"A handful of Costco workers have testified that Scott pointed a gun at the officers before he was killed".

One of those employees, who is a Costco customer service employee stated on the stand that Scott was going to shoot when he pointed the gun at officers in her opinion.

like I said, let the infro come out before you judge. Antlers-ink, maybe you have jumped the gun when you make statements like that without getting more facts.

RELH
 
As painful as it is for me I gotta back RELH on this one. Who in their right mind would pack heat in Wal-Mart & act weird? Everybody is weird at wal-mart but packing heat is a no-no.

You have to feel for the officer that had to make the split second decision. Bad deal all the way around as usual.

Slick
 
RELH don't you find it ironic that the hard drive was damaged or do you just think that was a huge coincidence? That is your smoking gun that will never come forward. The handful of Costco workers that testified he pointed a gun at officers can be countered by several witness' that said he never pulled a gun on the metro policemen. This case is far from over but I'm still going to say your boys were trigger happy. No I don't have all the facts but I'm still going to say your boys are trigger happy. If you didn't hear me very well I'm still going to say your boys are trigger happy. (Thugs) :)


Allphotosonthecamera3093.jpg
 
REHL ,you are way off with what you are saying .
The officer that fired the first shots is FOS .
During his testimony today ,He originally said when asked if the gun the Erik had was in a holster and he responded that he didnt know that because his focus was on Eriks hands.At the same time, he testified to noticing that "the subject had bloodshot eyes and was acting if he were under the influence of narcotics"all in a 45 second time frame from when he encountered Erik until the time he shot him.In court, 30 minutes after testifiing to not knowing about a holster ,the officer testified to the fact that the gun could be fired while still in its holster because he has one identical to Erik Scotts .How does he know what type of holster ,if he didnt see one ?
Another MAJOR FACT ,the officer was asked if he commanded MR.Scott to drop his weapon ,the officer responded ,"AT NO TIME DID I TELL THE SUSPECT TO DROP HIS WEAPON,I TOLD HIM TO PUT HIS HANDS IN THE AIR AND TO GET ON THE GROUND" .Thank GOD there was a civilian on the phone with 911 when this incident happened .The recording is very clear and you can hear the officer tell Erik "DROP YER GUN ,GET ON THE GROUND "and then within 1.7 seconds ,according to the diognostics done on the recordings ,shown in court,shots were fired .When the officer was confronted with the facts of the recordings ,his response was ,"IF YOU HAVE THAT RECORDED ,I MUST HAVE SAID IT,I DONT REMEMBER".This GUY can remember if an individuals eyes are red ,where his hands are ,the individuals demeanor, he can remember every other aspect of this HOMICIDE but he cant remember exactly what he said before killing a guy who was a VET ,Green Berret ,and was in posession of a CCW permit .
 
fldrw22;

It is apparent from your statements that you yourself have never been involved in a life-death shooting or you would be aware of some facts that happens in that type of incident.
With my training, I can walk up to person and within 20-40 seconds can usually tell if he/she is on drugs or having other apparent mental issues the vast majority of times.

The officer's answer about focusing on Eric's hands appears to be a truthful one that happens all the time in these cases. How many times have you heard about someone being questioned about what the suspect looked like, and the reply is that they could not remember because they focused on the gun in his hand and the barrel appeared very big.

As for the memory afterwards during the ACTUAL time of shooting or recognizing the danger. The body gets a strong shot of adrenaline that kicks in the FIGHT OR FLIGHT mode. During this time, memory becomes very hazy at best and this is where training kicks in on how to react to the danger. I am aware of numerous incidents during this time where a person could not even recall hearing the gun shots, but knew the gun was firing due to observation of the recoil of the gun. Persons involved in a shooting, both cops and citizens have a hard time remembering details, let along what was said.

Later a person might remember details, but numerous others still can not recall all what they saw or heard during the incident. Have a long talk with a psychiatrist that has interviewed numerous persons involved in shootings and you will see that I am not B.S.ing you on this. Most up to date departments even advise their officers to expect this occurence with persons involved in deadly shootouts.

There are numerous holsters on the market that will allow you to shoot with the gun in the holster.
I am glad there was a cell phone in use and the officer was overheard telling Eric to drop his gun. It tells me that the officer did in fact see a gun in Eric's possession and gave him a lawful order prior to shooting.

You might think 1.7 seconds is too short from lawful order, to pulling the trigger. It is not. I know many officers, and even civilian shooters who can recognized extreme danger to them selfs and draw a weapon from a concealed holster and put two shots on target in less then that time of 1.7 seconds.

You bought up the fact Eric was a Vet, Green Berret and was in possession of a CCW. Eric also has a past of violence documented on two occasions, domestic violence where he gave his first wife a concussion and threaten to kill her. Another incident where he pointed a gun at his neighbor over a dog biting and threaten to kill the neighbor and the dog.

Testimony has shown he was a cronic drug abuser and had a high enought level of narcotic drugs in his system that would have been fatal to the average person. That indicates he had grown tolerance to the drugs over long use of the prescription narcotics.

The big question is did the cops encounter a Green Beret Vet, or did they encounter the guy who had grown into a drug abusing mentally deranged person bent on destruction or even suicide by cop. you are aware that he has had bouts of depression where he did make comments about ending it all according to one of his doctors.

RELH
 
yes antlers-ink, I heard you. I have also written you off as a person who is very anti cop and facts will not change that attitude one way or another.

RELH
 
Just more of the smear campaign in progress. RELH--I know you stand by your boys and it's obvious they can do no wrong in your eyes. We just need the video to settle this. What a shame we'll never get to see it. No in fact it's Horse $hit that we'll never get to view it.


Allphotosonthecamera3093.jpg
 
Antlers-ink;

You are so biased and anti cop that is is not worth my time to address any more of your statements.

Have a nice day!

RELH
 
Yea It's a big cover up.Erik Scott was a fine upstanding
citizen if you listen to the news and his family.I guess the guy
he pulled the gun on and threatened to shoot him and his dog is a liar.And the that he was going to 3 Drs to get pain medicine
are liars and that it sounds like to me he had a Drug problem
and a mental problem.Or was it the Dr. who testified is a liar also and the report he filled out for the Dr. that they had mental and alcohol problems in his family.And I don't think it's common that you email your Dr. and tell them what drugs you want them to give you.But it's a big cover up.
And for the Idiots questioning the hard drive in the computers
you must not know much about computers and that they do fail.
And why would all those people lie about it.
 
I am very happy to see that the Las Vegas police dept. and the D.A.'s office was smart enough to allow the news agencies camera teams in the hearing for their viewers to see the actual hearing and presentation of evidence and witness statements.

This will go a long ways to put a plug in the rumor mungers mouths and allow the public to form their own opinion as to what happen that day.

The slanted newspaper reports in the las Vegas papers caused a lot of this turmoil, but it was done to sell newspapers. For the police and D.A. to turn the tables on the news agencies and use them to dispell false rumors was a great move on their part.

Now everyone will be glued to their T.V. sets every evening to catch the latest and not run out and buy the local rag sheet newspaper. It will also allow the las Vegas citizens to form their own opinion about what happen based on evidence presented and what the numerous witness's have to say about what they saw and heard.

RELH
 
RELH,
+1000
You are right on the money on that one.
Myself included Iam tired of the slanted News coverage
on this story and making out this guy and his family
as the greatest family on earth.instead of saying this gentleman
had a problem and needed help.It's always easier to blame someone else for your problems than step up to the plate and
get him some of the help he needed.I see none of his friends never mention that he had any of these problems and he needed help but it is more than clear he had problems he neede help with.
 
Camoboy, testimony has been given that he had drugs in his system nobody is denying that, but by all means let's get this guy the help he needs by putting 7 bullets into him. One in the armpit, (which leads one to believe he had his hands up when he was shot the first time), and I believe at least 4 in his back. The point of all this is did the metro police have the resonable cause they needed to kill this guy. Dig all the dirt you can on this kid, but ultimately did he deserve to be shot for his actions on that day? That's the big question here. I still wonder why in this kind of situation a tazer couldn't have been used?

The video would be worth a thousand words but we'll never get that crucial piece of evidence. Do computers really crash sometimes and lose informatiion? No $hit sherlock of course they do but this doesn't pass the smell test.

Let's dig into the metro police dept. for a minute. In the past 34 years there have been 190 inquest's and no officer has ever been charged with a crime. They've never been accountable for criminal misconduct. Why are they so perfect? Because of a flawed system. The inquests are designed to clear officers of any responsibility. Much of the language provided to the inquest jury, including the definitions of justifiable, excusable and criminal actions by officers is convoluted. They are not allowed to cross examine the witnesses which clearly handicaps the way the testimonies are handled. I still cannot believe that Metro has had exclusive control over the hard drive and back up drive for two months and now we find out the hard drive has been damaged. This is just too far fetched for me to believe there is no video evidence.

Look, RELH I don't believe I'm anti-cop. I have a couple of good friends that are cops. One of them deals with a lot of nutjobs everyday that live out there in Oceanside Cal. He's a good guy and has a difficult job to do. Police officer's in general do have a hell of a lot of responsibility on their shoulders and their actions can be magnified by the public. In this particular situation I believe as I said earlier that it doesn't pass the stench test.

You have a nice day too! :)


Allphotosonthecamera3093.jpg
 
antlers-Ink;

You claim not to be anti cop, but here you are again spouting conspiracy coverup on the part of the Los Vegas police without any evidence to back it up.

You even give false information to shore up your conspiracy in order to make the police look like the bad guys over a gun packing man under the influence of narcotic drugs. A man who has shown to have violent tendicies in at lease two prior incidents.

You stated one of the shots hit him in the arm pit and that indicates he had his arms up. It is obvious by that statement you are inferring he was shot while surrendering.

I guess you failed to read or hear that statement by the female witness who stated Scott raised his left arm in the air and then drew his gun with his right hand and the officers yelled at him to drop the gun and open fire when he pointed the gun at them. The first two shots hit him in the chest and the other two officers begin firing at this point because he did not go down on the first two shots.

In the past 34 years you state there has been 190 inquests and no officer has ever been charged with a criminal act over a bad shooting.

Your number of 190 appears to have been inflated by my information. You also need to go back to 1976 when Darryl Taylor was shot and it was ruled the result of criminal action and not a justifiable shooting.

Are you one of those guys that belives that the CIA killed jack Kennedy, The goverment hid the bodies of those green men from mars at Roswell. I ask this because you say you are not anti cop and I can not figure the reason why you persist on your conspiracy theory on this shooting.

As for the stench test you say it does not pass, could that be your own odor you are smelling?

RELH
 
RELH you said I was too anti-cop for you to address any more of my comments. You could at least be consistant or a man of your word. You are neither. You also need to get your facts straight. I said in 34 years "They've never been accountable for criminal misconduct." You claim they have. You need to do a better job of researching the story. Clark county found the 2 officers involved in the Darryl Taylor shooting did act improperly but when it went to a grand jury the same witnesses refused to indict the officers. So my claim that they've never been accountable for criminal misconduct is correct.

It's obvious you would defend the Rodney King beating and classify those officers justified as well. I do think the officers needed to use physical force to subdue Mr. King but the video clearly shows there was police brutality involved. Mr. King was lucky they just used nightsticks. Erik Scott wasn't so lucky.

I noticed you didn't touch with a ten foot pole the fact that the video strangely will never surface as evidence. Damn straght it looks fishy! That is the key piece of evidence that is needed to see what really transpired on that day.

Let's play the percentages...............How often do security camera hard drives or their backups get damaged or fail? I'm sure it happens, but what are the percentages that they just so happen to fail without the help of someone? The odds are staggeringly in my favor that someone had something to do with this so called damage or malfunction. So if I lean towards a conspiracy theory on this issue I know the odds are in my favor.

I have praise for the men in blue that have to deal with violent criminals and am sometimes dissapointed that they don't kill a few of the ba$tards they take into custody that should be shot. Especially those that they know have killed people and they still let them live to get their fair trial.

Bottom line I don't think the L.V. officers involved set out to murder Erik Scott I just think it was a huge Ooooooops, moment for them and a life was lost over a small disturbance in the store. What a shame! The department needs to address these concerns because they have a few of them on their hands that are clearly controversial shootings. The Trevor Cole shooting is also extremely controversial. The problem is that most police departments feel they will loose the public trust if they admit guilt so they will go to great lengths to justify their means. Sometimes even if it means loosing a valuable piece of evidence against them.

RELH-- With your police background you take offense when your fellow officers are criticized. Remember not all cops are like you--- honerable and decent. A few bad apples end up becoming cops and a few of their shadowy actions surface once in a while.
I stand by the stink in the air and it's definately coming from
Las Vegas Metro Police Dept.





Allphotosonthecamera3093.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-10 AT 04:53PM (MST)[p]No. that stink is of your own creation. go talk to several Costco managers and ask them how often their video cameras go down as they are in use almost 24/7 and they have the bad habit or re-using the same tapes over and over. they also have low priorty for repairing when they go down. I know that from personal experience of encountering that problem numerous times at stores that use video.

I only take offense when officer are criticized unfairly and with lack of foundation as you have done in this incident right from the start.

I find it very ironic on one hand you criticize LVPD over this shooting and turn around and state officers should kill some of the suspects they take into custody for a murder.


RELH

P.S. Witnesses do not indict officers, that is the sole responsbility of a grand jury that is comprised of CITIZENS from the community.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-10 AT 06:55PM (MST)[p] Are you kidding me RELH? Costco doesn't use VHS tapes like the ones your used to dealing with back in the 80's. :) They use modern technology DVR equipment. They are not reusing tapes as you suggest. I know a guy who works at a local Costco and he said their corporate execs. are meticulous about the security in their stores. They have a ton of security measures that they train their employee's with. Some of them seem to be a little over the top extreme but he deals with it every day. The only air that's foul now is coming from you talking out your back-side.

The witnesses I speak of are the ones at the county level that pushed it to a grand jury. Thanks for your correction on how juries work. Your just playing symatics and have no real rebuttal to my replies. Your welcome to say I'm anti-cop if it makes you feel better but I'm certainly going to say you are over the top pro-cop. They can do absolutely no wrong in your eyes and if anyone is ever critical of a cops poor judgement you are going to defend him no matter what they are accused of.

Your mind is like that of a cult member. You can't look outside the box and you're programed to think only you have the true information. The same way some of those religions out there teach there members to think.

Put a cork in it and save your lame response. :)

Allphotosonthecamera3093.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-10 AT 09:21PM (MST)[p]You are right. It is stupid of me to argue with a anti cop village idiot who believes that black helicopers are coming to get him. end of story and have a nice day.

RELH
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-10 AT 09:36PM (MST)[p]No you're the village idiot, but what am I? :):):)

And by the way------You have yourself a nice day too.



Allphotosonthecamera3093.jpg
 

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