Why Are Gila Bulls So Big?

[cosmic_cowboy]

I have never had the privilege to hunt the Gila but have seen many pics of the huge bulls that call it home. Why are they so big ? is it better feed, longer life or genetics?
The Elk that used to inhabit all of the southwestern mountains were Merriam's Elk they became extinct sometime around 1900

Rocky mountain Elk from Yellowstone were brought into NM in 1913 by Mr Bartlett who owned the Vermajo ranch. Then in the late 1940s WS Gorley brought in several hundred again to Vermajo and these are the Elk that repopulated the northern part of NM I think the first transplant to the Gila happened in the 1950s with elk from Chama Land and Cattle a large ranch in Chama NM so these Elk are of Yellowstone decent also. The discussion of there still being some small pockets of Merriam's Elk left in the Gila and SE AZ in the 1950s and these interbred with the transplants from YS. But don't think any genetic studies have been done.

What do you guys think could this be the reason for the large Bulls ?

I remember one winter day about 20 yrs ago I was out with an old time rancher looking over a herd of about 150 Elk and he said see the 2 purple cows their (Native Elk)I ask him more about this and he said all the Native Elk were not killed and every once in awhile you get a purple one.And to this day if you look over a large herd you can still see a few purple/blue ones in the herd.
I believe this is the Merriam's genes coming out.
What do you guys think ??

CC

 

[hank4elk]

Maybe a slight to none possibility of the Merriams involved. Still some very remote places around here.
I think it's the feed,minerals,altitude.....and just good living here. I still shake my head in disbelief when looking at a cow elk around these parts,just plain huge. I don't remember seeing a small bull,even the raghorns are big bodied. And not too many raghorns at that.They seem to go from spikes to small 5x racks quick. I have seen many hide color variations too.

 

[salsola]

Interesting question. I've also wondered about that. I'm no zoologist, so essentially I'm talking out my a$$, but here's what I've always thought. There's a principle in biology called Bergmans Rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergmann's_rule) that states populations within a species are generally larger at high latitude. So, let's assume the Yellowstone elk were always larger then their Merriams cousins. When they got transplanted to New Mexico their genetics tended towards larger body size. Combine that milder winters, fewer predators (maybe?) and large tracts of generally suitable habitat and you have a good the potential for large animals.

Never heard that some Merriams managed to survive. That's interesting....

 

[hank4elk]

There is a very good book on elk called Elk Country by Valerios Giest(sp) foremost authority on ungulates. Has an equally good book on deer. If I remember correctly the Merriams where the largest post prehistoric elk body wise. Not a zoologist either,just an outdoorsman...good off season topic tho!

 

[salsola]

Well, there goes my one explanation...


Trolling around the internet turned up this discussion which shows some antlers purported to be Merriams... and they are whoppers. Real deal?

http://www.coueswhitetail.com/forums/topic/19335-arizonas-elk/

And a paper that reports genetic testing of AZ elk to see if some Merriam persisted.

http://www.muledeerworkinggroup.com... Workshop/Is Merriam's Elk Really Extinct.pdf

 

[jamaro]

While I don't have any proof of ANYTHING... Just from the eye test the animals in the Gila are ALOT bigger than those in Northern NM. The biggest bodied elk I have EVER seen was in 13.. Man that thing was a MONSTER...

 

[elkbow8]

Was out turkey hunting this weekend in the Gila and saw over 100 head of elk. Some of the bulls were starting to grow nubs. You gentlemen are right. Their bodies were HUGE, you could also tell which were bulls and cows. It was surprising to see how healthy they look especially with the dry conditions. Most of the tanks had no water but the elk were plenty. Good luck to you all!!

 

[passthrough]

I would say age class has something to do with it as well. A bulls body will grow until hes about 6.5 years old. With a well managed population, as is the case for most of the gila units, you will see more older age class animals. Feed, mild winters, genetics, all have something to do with it as well. Now that we are getting that older age class established on the Caldera up north the really big bulls that they are killing have big bodies as well. With the Merriams elk thought to be extinct since the 1800's, I would think that if any survived, and bred with the transplants from YS, that those genetics would be pretty weak by now.

 

[cosmic_cowboy]

WOW check out the link salsola put up those are some blanking HUGE ANTLERS !!
Very interesting links salsola THANKS

CC

 

[nm_alazan]

I would say because there is much less winter stress in the Gila. Most areas, the winter areas and summer areas are one in the same, or at least very little migration needed.

Up north, the bulls spend the first part of the spring putting back lost body mass from migrating and the stresses of surviving winter, meanwhile the Gila bulls are using that same time frame to grow antlers instead since they didn't have to work as hard to survive the winter.

 

[junior]

Has anyone saw the huge elk in MO, KY or PA? Diet plays a huge role in size to.

 

[gdluck413]

I think a lot of the size has to do with age management, and feed. If I remember correctly, a Biologist told me Elk need to be at 9 1/2 to reach maturity and with the great feed you get huge bulls. JMO

-Brian

 

[GoBigorGohome]

>I would say because there is
>much less winter stress in
>the Gila. Most areas,
>the winter areas and summer
>areas are one in the
>same, or at least very
>little migration needed.
>
>Up north, the bulls spend the
>first part of the spring
>putting back lost body mass
>from migrating and the stresses
>of surviving winter, meanwhile the
>Gila bulls are using that
>same time frame to grow
>antlers instead since they didn't
>have to work as hard
>to survive the winter.
+1....I Agree
Northern NM elk tend to have shorter antler growing season than southern NM.... A lot of good post

 

[hank4elk]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-30-13 AT 04:12PM (MST)[p]I seriously doubt it has anything to do with management in NM.....

The yearling cows I have seen here are bigger than full grown Tule elk cow and bigger than most in N NM.I lived in MT before and the elk there are smaller,even bulls.
7-10 yr old bull is mature,and most don't get that old.I've seen some very old huge bulls,staggering.And declined the finders fee....their my breed stock.
As for the guy doubting Merriams or any elk in AZ NM prior to early 1900's and no petrogliphs ,Elk were eaten fresh by Natives as the meat spoils and does not dry the same as deer and sheep.They did not jerk it. Sheep and deer where revered as that is how they made it thru winter. Also why is there not more bison petrogliphs? They were here too. I have gotten alot of info and stories from the local Zuni,Acoma and Apache of how life was,not just from 3-4th generation ranchers. I have native hunt camp dugout on my place,pretty cool.

 

[cosmic_cowboy]

The big bulls you see coming from back east are huge so diet could be a factor.But their not ALL huge just a few same as N NM So who knows....Some of the Elk that went to PA came from Unit 53 and we occasionally get a huge bull also... but their rare.

CC

 

[gdluck413]

When I stated management, I was speaking of Age management. I have never hunted Elk honestly and was just looking at it through the eyes of a hunter who hunts Whitetails in an area with no management at all. If NM, if hunters were to shoot hundreds of Bulls every year, the Bulls would not get the opportunity to age at all. I used to shot 2.5 year old whitetail bucks every year, until I was able to convince neighboring property to practice quality deer management. Over the last 8 years we have started to harvest bucks in the 140 to 150 class and I am pretty sure it has to do with the age management we are practicing. Trust me, i am no expert on Elk, I was just giving what I thought might have something to do with it. It would be real interesting to talk to some of the Native Tribes to see how Elk populations have changed over the years.


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[gdluck413]

By the way for anyone interested, Michigan's Elk Draw has opened today if anyone is interested in applying for an Elk Permit for Michigan. I have been on a few hunts with friends and I think out state Typical record is only around 386. I have seen some 400+ bulls in Michigan though. I hope I get drawn this year finally for my home state...


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[gdluck413]

>By the way for anyone interested,
>Michigan's Elk Draw has opened
>today if anyone is interested
>in applying for an Elk
>Permit for Michigan. I have
>been on a few hunts
>with friends and I think
>out state Typical record is
>only around 386. I have
>seen some 400+ bulls in
>Michigan though. I hope I
>get drawn this year finally
>for my home state...
>
>Sorry if there was any confusion, but only Michigan Residents can apply for this. Not that I agree with it, but one man can't change it, and I have tried to get others on board...
>Hoyt Carbon Element G3 Bone Collector
>
>Bernies Control Freak Stabilizers


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[hank4elk]

There are some private ranches that manage elk and deer herds for size and quality, but age is determined when harvested,by teeth.

The older bulls seem to have much lighter hides and racks I've noticed. A 5 yr old bull can have a huge rack and body here and that is considered to be a very mature bull. Actually the G&F book defines it as at least one 6" browtine or one branch antler with both branches 6 or more inches long,a rag horn maybe 2 yrs old.

I have talked to some of the older natives here about elk,and they say they where wiped out around the turn of the century.Same as the buffalo.I know of some talking of Black Elk in MT, but they have been gone a long time.

 

[gdluck413]

Interesting info hank4elk. This will be my first year hunting Elk in my 28 years of hunting. Not that I havent wanted to, but I've always hunted with my best friend and that is my Father. He has a bad heart and I didn't want to leave his side during hunting season. However, after learning of the less rugged country available to hunt in the southwest area of NM, I am going this year to see if the Unit I am hunting will be good for my father to hunt with me next year. If not, I found a nice private land hunt in Colorado, 100% fair chase and they seems to harvest some nice bulls. I just want my father to get a good Bull before he gets to old to get around at all... He isn't one to hire a Guide as I did this year, but my investment will pay huge dividends next year if my Father comes Elk Hunting. Even if he sits water holes to hunt it will be nice to watch and video his hunt...


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[Gator]

Genetic code has to play the foremost role in growing big bulls,
without good genetic's they wouldn't grow huge bodies or horns,regardless what they are fed or how old they get.
Feed is what makes the genetic's work to it potenial.
Age lets the genetic's and feed work together to produce the right amount of growth to achieve the max that animal can get to.
inferior genetic will give you inferior results.( see pedigree breeding)
275 class type bulls wouldn't give you 400 class bulls if they don't have the genetic to do so.
Great Bulls with great cows = great calves.
you see farmers/ranchers doing this all the time mixing and matching bulls and cows to get the best cattle they can get by using the best genetics they can.Seem to work for them.
Pen raised elk people do the same thing they try and grow the best animal they can by matching the right bull to the right cow to get the right calf.(GENETICS)

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[JACOB2006]

THE Gila isn't the only one producing big bulls anymore. I know several people that harvested 350+ bulls in northern NM last year. I would share the pic's but I will leave that for them to do.

 

[fast]

Big Bulls are not just from the Gila. If you draw a line east to west thru the center of the state the bigger bulls will come from south of that line. The bulls in both the south and the north shed about the same time and when they start new growth they need good protien. What you have up north is dead grass, snow and mud and in the south you have strong grasses like the grammas, bluestem etc that are real strong even as a brown grass and they are starting to green up just as the elk need the protien. Once these bull begin to go hard horn they need mineral and the soil mineral in the southern part of the state is much stronger than the black dirt mud in the north. You can see the difference in the beef also from the south compared to mountain run beef up north. The northern cows will have a larger stomach to accomidate the larger required feed intake of those grasses as compared to the cattle that run down south .

Everyone has a theory this is just mine

 

[trophyhunter]

Good genes, habitat, nutrients in the soil and plenty of calcium to grow those horns

))))-------->

 

[junior]

Fast hit the nail on the head. Thinks about population too, a lot more elk up north. The cycle is way faster than the south. Does CO. come to mind?

 

[couesmagnet]

It doesn't have anything to do with merriam genes in my opinion, but everything to do with age structure. What explains arizona, nevada, utah, and certain parts of colorado. All of the places that have huge elk, have limited tags, and this is the only reason. If bulls get old, they get big and it's that simple. Arizona has far more big bulls than the gila. An average unit in arizona is close to as good as any unit in the gila. That being said the gila is my favorite place to hunt elk. Any unit that has elk will have big bulls if they are allowed to mature to old age. The color phase thing is interesting though. I have been in the gila for close to a decade and by my accounts logged in at least 150 days there, and haven't seen them yet. I would give anything to see one once even if it was a cow. Long live the gila!!!