WTF April Comments are very important

elks96

elks96

Long Time Member
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If you have not taken the time to fill out comments for the April WY Wildlife Task Force, please take the time and complete it...

Important items for both residents and NR to consider... Pick a region is being pushed for Residents. They are looking at forcing a person to pick between whitetail and mule deer hunting, and also they are looking to change the NR cap by forcing all NR to pick a region on the general elk license. All of which are nothing to do with the biology and all about trying to change the entire system for the benefit of a few.

The public input page can be found here:

sites.google.com

Wyoming Wildlife Taskforce - Public Input

Submit comments for the Wyoming Wildlife Taskforce below. Public comment provided to the taskforce for consideration prior to each meeting can be found on the "Meeting Materials" page. Comments received by 5 p.m. MST on November 7, 2022 will be provided to the Taskforce for the November 18, 2022
sites.google.com sites.google.com
 
WapitiBob said:
List a western state that doesn’t manage game for social issues.
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What they do and should do are 2 different things. I get the vast majority supporting something but in this case there are 3 small fringe groups pushing this... IT is a small group pushing pick a region for residents, a small group pushing for the deer tag split and the outfitter/guides pushing the NR regional elk tags split and increasing the NR tag CAP. Regardless they are all likely to have a negative impact on the resident hunter and despite looking good on paper the NR general pick a region will likely end poorly for the DIY NR elk hunter...
 
WapitiBob said:
I’m a nr diy and regions for elk makes perfect sense; hunter numbers can be managed per region as well as harvest quotas.
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So you would rather be limited to a specific area than have options? Why what would that accomplish for you? Just because they go to a more limited choice does not mean there will be less hunters. IN this case it is clear they are trying to up the number of hunters.
 
elks96 said:
So you would rather be limited to a specific area than have options? Why what would that accomplish for you? Just because they go to a more limited choice does not mean there will be less hunters. IN this case it is clear they are trying to up the number of hunters.
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He already answered why. Read it again.

I agree with Bob, makes sense to manage in regions for elk.
 
LivingTheDream said:
Why would picking between Whitetail and Mule deer be bad? Wouldn't this allow for better management. I know some guys would rather shoot a whitetail since it tastes better.
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One idea is that this would put more pressure on mule deer. There are some who hunt on the general deer tag early and if they do not see a monster they wait until later and hunt white tail only in the NE.

There are some white tail only tags where they have specific harvest goals. But many units in WY have the deer tag as either one. Meaning that a guy hunting in a mostly Mule deer area can shoot a whitetail...

This is good because it helps keep the white tail numbers down in our Mule Deer areas.
 
ORIONTHEHUNTER said:
Doesn't Wyoming already have separate whitetail and muley tags?
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Some when they have a specific hunt code for white tails. But most of the general tags allow for either a white tail or a mule deer. On my general tag I can shoot a Mule deer buck, a whte tail buck or usually a white tail doe. However the season is most limited for Mule deer buck and goes a little longer for white tail. Depending on area etc.
 
elks96 said:
One idea is that this would put more pressure on mule deer. There are some who hunt on the general deer tag early and if they do not see a monster they wait until later and hunt white tail only in the NE.

There are some white tail only tags where they have specific harvest goals. But many units in WY have the deer tag as either one. Meaning that a guy hunting in a mostly Mule deer area can shoot a whitetail...

This is good because it helps keep the white tail numbers down in our Mule Deer areas.
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You're not understanding the proposal. Its ok.
 
They want to have a separate draw for each species. I don't think it's a good idea because as of now a resident can pick up a leftover wt tag most people do prioritize mule deer and then fall back on whitetail. I think making this split will only make both mule deer and wt hard to draw. Rite now if a guy wants to hunt the better wt areas he has to apply for them first choice so it puts him out of the drawing for the top limited quota mule deer areas which is good I believe helps the draw odds a little for both.
 
If people can apply for the most sought after areas for both species that's only going to make draw odds crap for both In short
 
Bookhead said:
They want to have a separate draw for each species. I don't think it's a good idea because as of now a resident can pick up a leftover wt tag most people do prioritize mule deer and then fall back on whitetail. I think making this split will only make both mule deer and wt hard to draw. Rite now if a guy wants to hunt the better wt areas he has to apply for them first choice so it puts him out of the drawing for the top limited quota mule deer areas which is good I believe helps the draw odds a little for both.
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If they are both type one tags wouldn’t you have to pick one or the other?
 
SS! said:
I agree with Bob, makes sense to manage in regions for elk.
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Making Regions for NR Gen tags is a solution looking for a problem. There is absolutely nothing not working correctly using the current 7250 quota. Direct quote from Director Nesvik at the last TF meeting, "Cant say current NR gen tag structure is constraining us. Access is". Making regions would do away with this. Make no mistake the idea to do away with the quota and make regions is an attempt by some to get more NR gen tags.

Given all the success that Wyo Elk management has seen over the last 40 years, I cant for the life of me figure out why the TF has decided this is the one they need to tinker with. They have done nothing to tinker with how many deer, pronghorn, moose or sheep tags are offered in total. All are species that have declinded over the last 40 years. Yet elk is the only one that is growing and this is the one they wish to mess with. Makes no sense to me at all.
 
mulecreek said:
Making Regions for NR Gen tags is a solution looking for a problem. There is absolutely nothing not working correctly using the current 7250 quota. Direct quote from Director Nesvik at the last TF meeting, "Cant say current NR gen tag structure is constraining us. Access is". Making regions would do away with this. Make no mistake the idea to do away with the quota and make regions is an attempt by some to get more NR gen tags.

Given all the success that Wyo Elk management has seen over the last 40 years, I cant for the life of me figure out why the TF has decided this is the one they need to tinker with. They have done nothing to tinker with how many deer, pronghorn, moose or sheep tags are offered in total. All are species that have declinded over the last 40 years. Yet elk is the only one that is growing and this is the one they wish to mess with. Makes no sense to me at all.
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I think there’s a hidden agenda but the benefits I see is increased draw odds for NR if they break it up by region. My favorite elk spot to hunt has little NR pressure under the current system. If it was to get broke up there’s a chance the popular areas like around Jackson that I give two shits about would sucker in a lot of applicants. Making it easier for me to get a general region tag . It’s like G compared to H regarding deer.

I agree it seems odd they are choosing this “problem” but since they are considering it I can’t change that but I see the benefits to me.

Now if they try to limit residents to pick a region on their general elk tag I would be against that 100%.
 
Bookhead said:
Yea not a good idea I like it the way it is if you want to hunt wt in the better areas and sacrifice not putting in the high demand mule deer areas you can and I think that's a good tit for tat
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You’ve convinced me, not that it matters tho cuz I’m a filthy non res ?
 
I get that every Resident wants to hunt G and then go shoot a whitetail if they dont get lucky, but that unit can only take so much pressure. I support the proposal.
 
Region tags for deer will do nothing but kill more mule deer and less whitetail.

Because of this, they will have to go to specie specific tags on deer. That is a huge mistake. Any hunter could hold two general tags; one for mule, one for wt. Or a combo of LQ and general for each. This would cause more dead mule deer. As far as LQ deer, every hunter could apply for both whitetail and mule deer. This would cause drawing odds for both to plummet.
 
Savage110 said:
I get that every Resident wants to hunt G and then go shoot a whitetail if they dont get lucky, but that unit can only take so much pressure. I support the proposal.
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This is just another in a series of comments you have made recently that is false.
 
Savage110 said:
I get that every Resident wants to hunt G and then go shoot a whitetail if they dont get lucky, but that unit can only take so much pressure. I support the proposal.
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Do you know how many residents actually hunt more than one region? Do you have data that proves your point? Just curious. Also do you have any study that shows limiting the resident to a specific region will actually decrease hunting pressure in G and H? It is likely to increase pressure.
 
elks96 said:
Do you know how many residents actually hunt more than one region? Do you have data that proves your point? Just curious. Also do you have any study that shows limiting the resident to a specific region will actually decrease hunting pressure in G and H? It is likely to increase pressure.
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Correct and it won't decrease pressure. licences will still be available over the counter so yes likely to increase pressure if you make people choose
 
Savage110 said:
I get that every Resident wants to hunt G and then go shoot a whitetail if they dont get lucky, but that unit can only take so much pressure. I support the proposal.
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Would you rather they not have an option to take a whitetail later on and therefore fill their tag on whatever buck they see in G on the last day? Because that is a far likelier outcome than they don’t hunt G and go chase a whitetail instead.
 
mulecreek said:
Would you rather they not have an option to take a whitetail later on and therefore fill their tag on whatever buck they see in G on the last day? Because that is a far likelier outcome than they don’t hunt G and go chase a whitetail instead.
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No. But it is more likely that they wont go to G at all knowing that it is unlikely that you just walk up the mountain and stumble accross a 180+ deer. With a statewide tag they take a flyer on G, overrun the unit, then go shoot a deer where they should have started in the first place.
 
Savage110 said:
No. But it is more likely that they wont go to G at all knowing that it is unlikely that you just walk up the mountain and stumble accross a 180+ deer. With a statewide tag they take a flyer on G, overrun the unit, then go shoot a deer where they should have started in the first place.
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Have you ever hunted g?
 
jm77 said:
This is just another in a series of comments you have made recently that is false.
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Wrong, but good attempt at deflecting from the issue. It is painfully obvious that R's are circling the wagons on this issue and for good reason. It is either going to cause you to make a choice as to where you hunt, close to home, or go for broke.

Incidentally, this is the same decision almost every other resident of a western state is faced with. Why should it be different for you?
 
Savage110 said:
Wrong, but good attempt at deflecting from the issue. It is painfully obvious that R's are circling the wagons on this issue and for good reason. It is either going to cause you to make a choice as to where you hunt, close to home, or go for broke.

Incidentally, this is the same decision almost every other resident of a western state is faced with. Why should it be different for you?
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Why should it be different? Because we are not morons that buy into idiotic management strategies.

Sorry but the reason G and H are hurting is not from resident hunters picking a unit. The data does not support that and the management practice does not.
 
Savage110 said:
Yes. Many times. Have you? Not even sure why it matters, but i'm sure you will provide some fun facts for all to read.
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Then you should know it takes allot more planning and preparation then just making a "flyer" trip as you call it. The people putting in that kind of work aren't just gonna hunt somewhere else if regions are implemented
 
Bookhead said:
Then you should know it takes allot more planning and preparation then just making a "flyer" trip as you call it. The people putting in that kind of work aren't just gonna hunt somewhere else if regions are implemented
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And they won't pass bucks to save their tags either. They will choose G then go hunt hard but they won't eat their tags. I hunted 3 different regions in Fall 2021 for deer.
 
Soccerdude said:
And they won't pass bucks to save their tags either. They will choose G then go hunt hard but they won't eat their tags. I hunted 3 different regions in Fall 2021 for deer.
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People post all day on here about eating tags if they dont find a buck they want to shoot. Now all of a sudden no one leaves a buck on the mountain if they have a tag? Wow.
 
W
Bookhead said:
Then you should know it takes allot more planning and preparation then just making a "flyer" trip as you call it. The people putting in that kind of work aren't just gonna hunt somewhere else if regions are implemented
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We are going to find out pretty soon!
 
Savage110 said:
absolutely nothing. why do you ask?
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I am confused about your argument. You said "With a statewide tag they take a flyer on G, overrun the unit, then go shoot a deer where they should have started in the first place."
I fail to see the problem with this. Sounds like a great way to spend even more time in the field all the while not impacting the MD herd in G. Why would this need to be stopped?
 
mulecreek said:
I am confused about your argument. You said "With a statewide tag they take a flyer on G, overrun the unit, then go shoot a deer where they should have started in the first place."
I fail to see the problem with this. Sounds like a great way to spend even more time in the field all the while not impacting the MD herd in G. Why would this need to be stopped?
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Even if you don't harvest an animal, your presence in the field affects the herd in a small way.

Also, there is only so many days one can scout, especially if one is splitting time between 2 units. That could have some unintended effects, like lobbing a 1,000 yrd shot at a 180+ mulie vs taking a 2 1/2 yo whitetail in E. WY. There could be more but there are my thoughts.
 
Savage110 said:
Even if you don't harvest an animal, your presence in the field affects the herd in a small way.

Also, there is only so many days one can scout, especially if one is splitting time between 2 units. That could have some unintended effects, like lobbing a 1,000 yrd shot at a 180+ mulie vs taking a 2 1/2 yo whitetail in E. WY. There could be more but there are my thoughts.
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So you are talking in circles... In one case you claim the unit is over ran by guys that go last minute and hunt. Those guys even if they exist are very likely not to have great success. So if they show up for a 3 day hunt in G do not find a buck they want and leave how has that decreased or harmed the herd in G? Hell if your only argument is their presence has some small effect, then wouldn't we do more for G to eliminate scouting all together? Or heck wouldn't it do more to make NR hunt solo and not bring their buddies with out a tag to help?

I mean are you really wanting to make a difference then lets do this. Move the Start date on G to the Oct 1st time and allow only archery for September?

Let me ask you this, what is the purpose of forcing a resident to pick a region? What will it accomplish? What data and facts do you have to support that position? Right now the pick a region push is nothing more than a bunch of hunting Karen's who "feel" there is too much pressure. They feel that it must be fixed. Yet when presented with data and logic those feelings fall apart. In the end we get the same argument that even you presented here.... Every where else does it, why should WY be different blah blah blah, about the only thing missing is how the system is racist and picking winners and losers.

Oh and as for scouting, I can usually scout 2-3 regions pretty well and by the time it is all said and done most of the time I have a target buck located a month before season starts. But when you force me to pick one, I am going to the best one I can, a guy who has never hunted G (scouted, but never had to hunt g) will suddenly be taking his family to G as it has the overall best potential for my week of hunting with my family.
 
elks96 said:
Let me ask you this, what is the purpose of forcing a resident to pick a region? What will it accomplish? What data and facts do you have to support that position? Right now the pick a region push is nothing more than a bunch of hunting Karen's who "feel" there is too much pressure. They feel that it must be fixed. Yet when presented with data and logic those feelings fall apart. In the end we get the same argument that even you presented here.... Every where else does it, why should WY be different blah blah blah, about the only thing missing is how the system is racist and picking winners and losers.
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This is right on the money, but the "hunting Karen's" are the Wyoming Range Mule Deer Association who came on to this site claiming to want to be inclusive and hear everyone's opinion. They claimed they wanted all the "data" first before making decisions. Right. As soon as it became clear many residents don't like their region deer idea they baled ship and took off on their own to push their ideas.

This will be a contentious issue no matter what the TF decides to do. In the end, if region deer tags happen and/or specie specific tags, mule deer will be the biggest losers.
 
No one knows what will happen if you have to "Pick a Region" so there is inherent risk in that strategy where if people pick Region G or H that they will end up hunting it more and harder. If the goal is to have less pressure and shoot less bucks in G and H, would limiting you to shooting 1 buck every 2 years in G&H accomplish that? If you shoot a buck in 2022 in G or H, you can't hunt G or H in 2023.

My worthless non-resident 2 Cents, you all can have it for free.
 
The whole issue with proposing "pick a region" is there is no data. No one knows how many deer are killed, how many hunters hunt a region or hunt multiple regions, how many days they spend in each region or what would happen if guys had to pick a region, it is all speculation. I feel this is a solution to a non existent problem.
 
nripepi said:
No one knows what will happen if you have to "Pick a Region" so there is inherent risk in that strategy where if people pick Region G or H that they will end up hunting it more and harder. If the goal is to have less pressure and shoot less bucks in G and H, would limiting you to shooting 1 buck every 2 years in G&H accomplish that? If you shoot a buck in 2022 in G or H, you can't hunt G or H in 2023.

My worthless non-resident 2 Cents, you all can have it for free.
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There is no data that even begins to suggest that hunters are killing too many bucks in G. The B to D ratio is relatively high and above target. Pick a Region is about hunters simply wanting to see less hunters. Nothing more, nothing less. This was the least objectionable way to do that. It has been presented as a save the herd effort but it does nothing to do that. The problems G faces are not a lack of bucks but rather a lack of food. Or more correctly water at the right times.
 
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mulecreek said:
There is no data that even begins to suggest that hunters are killing too many bucks in G. The B:D ratio is relatively high and above target. Pick a Region is about hunters simply wanting to see less hunters. Nothing more, nothing less. This was the least objectionable way to do that. It has been presented as a save the herd effort but it does nothing to do that. The problems G faces are not a lack of bucks but rather a lack of food. Or more correctly water at the right times.
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Exactly. This is the first step to going to a totally limited system. Like you mentioned the least objectionable way for the Wyoming Range Group to try and keep hunters away was pick a region. But there is absolutely nothing that suggest it will work.
 
I will tell you that most years if I draw a decent tag for elk or antelope closer to home I usually don't hunt g I hunt it on years that I have time to scout it on weekends and hunt it for 9 days if I have to pick a region I will make time no matter what I draw and I'll be there every year because I try to give time for every tag I have and sometimes if I draw for a different species closer to home I hunt general deer here instead
 
jm77 said:
This is right on the money, but the "hunting Karen's" are the Wyoming Range Mule Deer Association who came on to this site claiming to want to be inclusive and hear everyone's opinion. They claimed they wanted all the "data" first before making decisions. Right. As soon as it became clear many residents don't like their region deer idea they baled ship and took off on their own to push their ideas.

This will be a contentious issue no matter what the TF decides to do. In the end, if region deer tags happen and/or specie specific tags, mule deer will be the biggest losers.
Click to expand...
Some people hunt for potential, some for meat. Some will do both if given the opportunity. Your choice may not be the same as others.

And yes, I believe the system is inherently racist. Starting with the randomized draw, I think us Karens should work on cancelling it.
 
mulecreek said:
There is no data that even begins to suggest that hunters are killing too many bucks in G. The B to D ratio is relatively high and above target. Pick a Region is about hunters simply wanting to see less hunters. Nothing more, nothing less. This was the least objectionable way to do that. It has been presented as a save the herd effort but it does nothing to do that. The problems G faces are not a lack of bucks but rather a lack of food. Or more correctly water at the right times.
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My suggestion was for less pressure as a main driver and consequently less bucks shot if less pressure. I can't argue anything if the BtoD ratio is currently satisfactory and all the does are getting bred. If so, then no reason to change anything except maybe giving out a few more non-resident tags :)
 
mulecreek said:
Making Regions for NR Gen tags is a solution looking for a problem. There is absolutely nothing not working correctly using the current 7250 quota. Direct quote from Director Nesvik at the last TF meeting, "Cant say current NR gen tag structure is constraining us. Access is". Making regions would do away with this. Make no mistake the idea to do away with the quota and make regions is an attempt by some to get more NR gen tags.

Given all the success that Wyo Elk management has seen over the last 40 years, I cant for the life of me figure out why the TF has decided this is the one they need to tinker with. They have done nothing to tinker with how many deer, pronghorn, moose or sheep tags are offered in total. All are species that have declinded over the last 40 years. Yet elk is the only one that is growing and this is the one they wish to mess with. Makes no sense to me at all.
Click to expand...

One word.... money.
 
I understand wanting to reduce pressure in G by regionalizing; however, I don’t necessarily agree that it will result in reducing harvest for reasons already mentioned…. I will add that from my observations, the orange army marching up the mountain the night before/morning of the opener with their headlamps on probably saves more deer and increases carryover of older age class bucks than anything.

From a biological perspective, post hunt ratios of 45:100 indicate that current harvest is sustainable (by a fairly large margin). If herd health is the true concern driving this issue, then the topic needs to be focused on does and fawns, not bucks….
 

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