Zeke, Patientlywaiting, others.....

>The best part of Utahs management
>is all the big bulls
>that get harvested,and not just
>by a few super hunters,
>women,older folks, people with jobs,
>they have realistic chance too.
> If you don't want
>to hold out for the
>top early any weapon hunt
>units, there are late any
>weapon hunts, muzzle loader hunts,
>archery hunts, I see
>big ones taken in those
>hunts also, It doesn't have
>to be once in a
>lifetime, I drew my second
>any weapon bull tag in
>Utah this year, and Im
>a nonresident with tough draw
>odds. There are lots of
>people and only so many
>bulls, keep it like
>it is and keep those
>big bulls available.
 
Piper they can be available, there is no reason to have 90%+ success rates on any hunt. If you issue 40 tags with 97% success rate like on the Pahvant, what if you issued 80 tags with 50% success rates. Now twice the amount of people were able to enjoy the resource and get out and hunt, and the same amount of bulls were killed. Not only do I believe there would be a larger amount of big bulls, helluva lot harder to kill a giant in October than peak rut with a rifle, trophy quality will go up. Now obviously people would have to hunt harder, which from reading a lot of the posts that is a HUGE issue.
 
"(the number of giant bulls on the hill is a constant, they don't multiply based on tag allotment......) I know I probably spelled that wrong, i'm having a brain fart."

Not true at all, you know as well as I do it is a helluva lot harder to kill a good bull mid October than it is Mid September. So I actually feel you would have a higher age class of bulls because your top end is getting smoked on 90% success rate rifle shoots. Whereas those same bulls would be significantly harder to find and kill in October. Which would raise the age class your looking for, and put bigger bulls on the Mtn. The only way to maintain quality now under current management is to continue to lower tags, keep 90% success rifle shoots in September, and create a butt plug from hell of hunters who will never draw a LE elk tag in UT.

"That probability is why utah is special, sure you can go to arizona and there are giant bulls, colorado has a few too, really no matter where you go there is a possiblity. The statistical probablity of killing one is greater in UT, sheerly due to the number of tags."

You think it is special, I think it is a travesty. Any state in the country could create what UT has for elk if they wanted to, not hard to allow 50 people to hunt an entire unit and let elk grow old. I admire the states that can do both, allow giant bulls to roam the hills, and also allow enough tags that people who live in the state can actually enjoy the resource. Hope you dont have kids, cause if you get your way they will never hunt elk on an LE unit in UT!
 
Coyote chaser- I can read the draw odds, If you only want a early Pahvant or San Juan tag then you might have to wait a long time, but there are other options,and everyone can get a tag. seems to me that many places are already plenty crowded,twice as many tags? that would be worse. I hear the whining,all the big bulls are gone,on and on,funny but I see pictures of some mighty big bulls right here on MM, Fish lake is shot out were the cries, check out the big one that lady got,or the big one that got away, how about that 415 archery kill on Panguitch, I guess thats not big enough for you? Look at the first post on this thread, it says something about the Wasatch any weapon hunt and how tough it was,you say its so easy? maybe you can call him a liar. Come up to Wyoming, our hunts are in Oct. just like you want, of course people get a lot more big bulls in Utah,and thats quite a travesty I guess.
 
If you started putting in for SJ or Pahvant or Beaver or Boulder or Southwest Desert and I could keep going and going you would not draw for 20-30 years or more. I don't think a tag every 15-30 years is a good option, do you think that is a good thing?

"Look at the first post on this thread, it says something about the Wasatch any weapon hunt and how tough it was,you say its so easy? maybe you can call him a liar." Piper the success rate for the early rifle shoot on the Wasatch is 81%. So yes it is an easy hunt,its like 97%+ on the Pahvant, as soon as you can find me a stat that says otherwise I am going with the numbers.

Piper you know as well as I do by shuffling seasons, decreasing success rates, you increase quality and allow more people to enjoy the resource. I wish I could come up to WY, my buddy moved up there 2 years ago and mocks me daily about the hunting opportunities he has compared to me! Has chased 330+ bulls on the general archery hunt each year since he has been there. I would consider yourself lucky and blessed.
 
CC,
17 out of the 26 archery elk tags take less that 7 years to draw. Only 6 take +10 years.
You stated that your kids will never draw a tags, well here you go. Enjoy a LE archery tag with the kids.

Places like San Juan, Pahvant etc. will take +20 years to draw even if you doubled the rifle tags.
 
I can see, appreciate and understand the thoughts from all sides. There certainly is more than one way to look at game management. Eveyone gets to have an opinion and my suspicion is that our opinions are based on what we think would work best for us. Me included.

I can tell you that hunting big bulls in the rut is a rare treat. It is a privilege and a wonderful happening, especially when you get to do it with family. It is the kind of experience that could/should be classified as a once in a lifetime experience.

Since the LE system has been in place we actually have big bulls to hunt, before the LE system we did not have a true huntable population of throphy class elk.

I hope that the elk seasons don't drastically change because they seem to be working.

There will always be those who want tighter restrictions and greater limitations and even bigger trophies. The there are those who wish for more opportunity and willing to do so with less trophy potential and less "advantage" of the rut.

These are both great options but simply different ways to reach our personal goals. We all hunt for different reasons and for different trophy levels. Nothing wrong with that.. just different.

We can all talk until we're blue in the face and sadly we will have little input on the final outcome.

Zeke

PS: I was out for the "trophy" spike hunt and saw tons more cows than I did during the "bugle" hunt. I suppose with the added pressure, the boys had them all moving. Maybe even with "all my experince" (LOL) it's easier to see elk that are pushed around a bit.
 
"I can tell you that hunting big bulls in the rut is a rare treat. It is a privilege and a wonderful happening, especially when you get to do it with family. It is the kind of experience that could/should be classified as a once in a lifetime experience."

But only archery hunters in the entire Western United States should get this opportunity.(sarcasm)

Utah is about the only state where you can hunt the rut with a rifle and apparently it won't be enough until coyote has ALL of them for himself.
 
Exactly, once you factor the 5 year wait you are looking at maybe 2-3 tags MAX in your life. And for sure I will be putting my kids in for archery tags, its the only option available to those that were not 14 when UT created its point system. Its such a sad example of elk management.
 
You can keep some tags in the rut, AZ does it for most of their top end units. They only offer like 20 or so tags, some more some less in certain units, and those that want to hunt the rut with a rifle can wait the 30-40 years it takes to draw. And they kill some GIANTS on those hunts, then somehow they turn around and offer 550 rifle tags for October in the same unit. Then something even crazier happens, the next year they kill GIANTS again! And they repeat the crazy process of increased opportunity and still maintain quality over and over and over! And all the time you guys have preached it cannot be done!

NV offers one unit a year that allows rut rifle hunts, WY has some rut rifle hunts, and AZ offers some rut rifle hunts, NM has some that catch the tail end of the rut. The only difference between UT and those states, is that those season/weapon types are the minority, not the majority which is why they can offer more tags, and still kill the same quality of bulls as UT. Do the same thing here and I will be happy! :) I will make a concession, leave some tags for rifle rut shoots, but make them very limited, and make a mid october rifle hunt and give more tags. Those that want to chase a rifle shoot tag can wait the 30 years, those that are not afraid of a hunt can choose other options. That way at least there are options, and people can move through the point pool.
 
Another hilarious statistic, Nevada has a whopping 11,000 elk and issues 1,259 LE bull elk tags. Utah has 68,000 elk. So almost 7 times as many elk and issues like 2800 tags. Barely double! Crazy thing is I see some giants killed each year in NV. I wonder what they are doing to keep opportunity and quality?
 
If you are going to count LE tag numbers you have to count CWMU numbers. Its almost the same thing IMO. There surely are a ton of CWMU elk tags out there.


It was a big bodied 2 point.
 
C_c,
Let me see if I understand you correctly. (I think I do but I really want to understand)
You want lower quality hunts with more tags issued with more competition in the field and move the timing of the hunt?

Opnion: There will be a few big bulls shot but, by-in-large, the hunter should be content with a lesser bull. Those are the hunt stats you're wanting, right?

If the quality of harveat stayed the same and the tags went up then the top end bulls would quickly disappear. So, neither one of us want that!

So you're saying increase the tags, move the hunt, reduce overall quality, increase opportunity. Right?

It sounds like you want everyone to have several chances at medeocre bulls rather than a good chance for a good bull during the "shoot".

Have I summed it up and wrapped my head around it correctly?

Another of my opinions: More hunters,more pressure, lower quality, twice in my life doesn't sound as good as a great hunt once. Remember, I can always go somewhere else to hunt in the years before and after my rut "shoot".

Zeke
 
Albubba,

I will type slow for ya: "Lower success, smaller bulls (for the most part)=great idea." Big bulls will be there, you will have to HUNT, not SHOOT.
 
Zeke you hit it on the head. I would not say the quality of the hunt would be diminished. The quality of the hunt would remain the same, as far as trophy quality animals since the same bulls that were on the unit in mid september will surely be there in mid october. I would say the difficulty of the hunt would increase, not the quality, and the large majority of hunters would "settle" for a mediocre bull because those are the ones they could find with relative ease. The big bulls would be harder to find, but they would be there for those that are willing to work for it. At least you would know they are out there for those that are willing to work for em! I would say the majority of tags should be issued for those types of hunts, and a small number of tags could be set aside for those that are wanting an easy hunt and trophy animals with rut rifle shoots. And allow those people to wait the 20-30 years to draw a tag, but have other options that will allow UT to issue more tags without sacrificing quality, and most importantly move people through the point pool.

Not every LE hunt needs to be a slam dunk, its still hunting.

"Another of my opinions: More hunters,more pressure, lower quality, twice in my life doesn't sound as good as a great hunt once. Remember, I can always go somewhere else to hunt in the years before and after my rut "shoot"."

I hunt out of state also, but what about those that cannot afford it? By increasing opportunity you would eliminate the butt plug that is our current problem, so the possibility of drawing multiple tags throughout your life will increase dramatically. I don't think our elk/deer management plans should focus on how to make the hunts as easy as possible to appease people who don't want to hunt hard.

Zeke I know that hunting elk in the rut is a blast, that's why I love doing it just as you do. But under the current management plan and tag allotments, those that are just entering the draws will never have a chance, or a very slim chance at hunting elk. So I think these talks should be focused on how as a state do we put together a plan that allows us to optimize opportunity, but to also maintain quality.
 
How do you harvest an elk without shooting? I thought that eventually we all had to shoot but apparently I am wrong. Do you do it telepathically? Will you show us all how you do that Grand Poobah? Or should I say PRObah?
 
I just realized what you are trying to say, "The rifle hunters must make the sacrifice so everyone will benefit". Thank you, I am now enlightened.

Where is the archery hunters sacrifice?
 
Wow, this pissing match is still going? It is obvious that most of the posters on this thread don't have a clue.

My observations are

1. cow elk #'s are down and on a decline
2. Big bull #'s are down and on a decline

CC and G4 are on the money. I really don't get how you all don't understand that there is a way to get more quality and more quantity! You can have your cake and eat it too. But it all starts with moving the rifle out of the rut. But I don't expect y'all to understand.

Oh, and berry, your a nice kid and all, but you are just that a kid. Most these guys you are butting heads with have many, many more years of elk hunting under their belt and have played a role in the killing of many BIG bull elk....either on their own, helping family or guiding. If you realized who you where questioning when arguing with G4 you would know what I am talking about. If I had to choose you or any of the guides up there or G4 to guide me, I'd say G4 would be worth twice the money as any guide you have. I say this and I know all of you. In fact, you know G4 much better than you think and he definitely knows what kind of bulls you guys see, what your clients ask, want and expect and ultimately what kind of bulls they shoot.
 
Coyote chaser, Nevada hunts aren't in the same league as the Utah hunts for the most part, they do have some areas around Ely where the terrain is much like some of the Arizona units, and they can have lots of late tags and still offer big bulls, but in most of Nevada or Utah that can't be done. You forget about the late hunts in Utah, thats what I have this year. There are also any bull areas, cow hunts and spike hunts, in my opinion Utah does a great job in elk management, the best in the west.
 
And no Alp 75 you can't have your cake and eat it to. More Elk or less harvest are the only ways you can have more big bulls. There are private landowners and habitat condition that dictate the overall numbers of elk, so thats another story, and moving elk hunts into Oct is one way to give more tags and reduce harvest no doubt, but thats not really having your cake and eating it.
 
By utilizing a weapon that has low success rates that allows more hunters to get through the point pool. My hunt in 08 had a 20% success rate. I had a blast!
 
Wow, I didn't realize that we had the worlds greatest elk expert and guide here in G4. Now that I know I will follow his words propheticly. Thanks for clearing that up for us alp.

And nice job on bashing Berry you tool. I don't understand why that was necessary but I just thats just your kindergarten way of saying agree with me or else. It's obvious YOU dont have a clue.

You see, we all have opinions, yours is just lame. LOL.

BTW, people will be more apt to listen to you if you can refrain from childish behavior.

I love the fact that we are ALL experts. We ALL have the right answers and everyone else is an idiot. I dont care what happens. Move that hunt or keep it. I will still hunt and enjoy time spent with my family.
 
I'm childish? I didn't call anybody names. I personally know everybody in the post you are referring to. I think if I know people personally I have a right to speak openly to them. I didn't bash them which by your terms makes somebody childish. So now go back and read your post. You call me names and bash me.....childish????
 
I have appreciated all the input on Blaster's thread. I felt that I had to be a little more involved since he referred to me in the title.

Thanks ALL for your replies and your passionate candid opinions. I would make it work for me under almost any management plan.

I suspect that everyone on here "gets it" but we simply have different opnions... not wrong... just different.

As for the "effort" on my daughter's hunt, we really did try to make the most of her tag. We did hunt hard, by almost anyone's standards. We're proud of our effort and success. It didn't feel like a "shoot" to me but we usually look at doing things the hard way. To sum it up: WE HAD A BLAST! I'll post some pics with a story when and if I can figure out the photo thing.

C_c, keep chasing the birds, it's a noble sport. If you have any desire to hunt in Id, I have a spot where I saw hundreds of chukars while on a sheep hunt. Touch base and I'll share some info.

Zeke
 
Exactly! The status quo for you doesn't change, and if it does it gets better. BUT, you want others to sacrifice what they enjoy for the betterment of everyone? Gotcha.

I ask again, where is the archers sacrifice? The rules don't change for you do they? You knew the rules, restrictions and dates before you started hunting and applying and now you want another group of hunters to give up their only chance to hunt elk during the rut with a rifle.

Lets try this again (a little sacrifice for everyone):

9/1 - 9/15
Archery season (only 2 weeks, there is your sacrifice)Shorter season = fewer bulls harvested, fewer top end bulls killed. This means more tags for the archers, that's what we want right?

NO HUNTING FROM 9/16 - 9/25. That way I can go up there and chase bulls around without any hunters getting on the way. :)

9/26 - 10/2 Any weapon season
Shorter season and out of the peak of the rut = fewer bulls harvested, fewer top end bulls killed. More any weapon tags. yee haw. But the any weapon guys might have to hunt a little now and you know what crappy hunters they are so success rates should be equal to the archery hunt.

10/3 - 10/9 Muzzy season (we may even switch the any weapon and muzzy dates and maybe put them on a rotating, every other year plan).
Shorter season and moved back one week = fewer bulls harvested, fewer top end bulls killed. More muzzy tags, give me another yee haw.

Every group has to sacrifice a little and you have to admit, a lot more elk tags for everyone. Are YOU willing to accept a proposal like this? Are YOU willing to make the same sacrifice that you expect others to make?
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-11 AT 09:50AM (MST)[p]Yes, childish is coming on a public forum where you do not know all of us and call someone out, even if you do know them.

What purpose did that serve?

Just becuase someone has hunted elk for 50 years and killed a ton of bulls, does not make them an expert in management.
 
Great plan!!! The only tweak I would make is let the spike/cow archery and regular archery deer hunt end on 9/15 before the archery limited gets started.
 
I also like the plan. I don't think most archery hunters aren't willing to make a sacrifice even though that's how it seems to be perceived. I archery hunt, rifle hunt and muzzy hunt. If I had to choose, I would take the rifle during the rut, no questions. I just don't think it's best for the management and I am not willing to wait 20 years to do it. I'd rather take my risks with archery and hunt more often.

I also think it would be good to see the state allow the entire month of September in the General units only. This would move some pressure off the limited units and give those still waiting on an LE tag more opportunity.
 
I would sign off on something like that, only difference would be to swap the muzzy and the rifle hunts. I did not hunt till the last 2 weeks of my elk hunt anyway. Other than that I would be 100 percent on board.
 
Since really I am no expert on management what would be the next step to try get a plan like this in front of those that care. Right now it looks like there are about half dozen or dozen of us experts that really care about this. Maybe all the others have real jobs and don't have time for all of this nonsense talk that we are enjoying.

Alp, What do you mean by moving the general hunt out of September in certain units?

Coyote Chaser- I am with you put the muzzleloader before the rifle. And for those that have to have the hunt in the rut. Issue some tags and call those your premium hunts. Those guys can wait and make it their once in a lifetime hunt.

AlBubba good to meet you. Just an FYI I am almost an expert (Not Yet) I still feel to young to consider myself any expert and I rely on a lot of luck in the mountains by putting myself out there enough, I am bound to get lucky once in a while.

Not that it matters but I also hunt with all three weapons but dang sure I am putting in for what gives me the best chance to hunt. I'm somewhat addicted to big bull elk and mule deer and don't want to hunt just once in my life. If my chance is reduced at killing a giant bull so be it- at least I hope to get in the field and chase these big boys multiple times. I don't have the means to go out of state and hunt every year and spike elk aren't that fun to hunt after you have killed a dozen or so of them. I've shot them with my bow, muzzleloader, rifle left handed and right handed and its not that exciting to me. I like big bulls.

Berry- No intent to bash you. Your a heck of a guy and I know you are thick skinned and can handle my sissy words. On these forums its easy to pick apart what is being said. Thats why I can't text with my wife she misinterprets what I say all the time. There is no real emotion in these words even though they seem to stir up a lot more emotion for some reason. We are all pretty tough sounding behind a computer screen. I really do like where your thread was headed. They, our management are making a serious mistake killing that many cows. The unit is going to suffer I believe for a while before it gets better by killing the only thing that can produce a bull elk.

Its great to read a bunch of different opinions and see some ideas come together that make a little more sense than what is currently available to us all.

I think our real challenge is to some how get control of elk management not leave it up to the Cattlemen, DWR Biologists that don't know jack (at least math), and another group I don't dare comment about on here. I also believe that our system should be based on a preference point system. None of this crap where a lucky 12 or 14 yr old kid can draw and hunt their first year in the field when there are old men that have been putting in for almost 20 yrs and haven't had the chance yet. Let these kids actually learn what hunting is before putting them in the field. I believe we should earn the right and pay our dues before getting the chance.
 
I wasn't real clear. I was saying that in the General units (non LE units) like the Uintas it would be nice to see Similar dates as there are now except move the archery hunt to the entire month of September. I think this may pull some pressure off the LE units and still give hunters the opportunity to chase branch antlered bulls.
 
No worries too any, haha i need to be thrown under the bus now and again by ALP and you to keep me in my place....;-)


littlebeaver.jpg
 
NOW THIS POST IS GETTING SOMEWHERE!!! I think that is a great proposal. I would 100% agree with switching the Muzzy hunt and the rifle hunt or even switching off each year as mentioned and as an archer I would totally agree with the hunt dates mentioned. These dates make each hunt just that... a "hunt". Success rates would drop and even with more tags issued quality would absolutely increase.

Anyone who does not agree with these dates is simply not confident in their own hunting abilities or their own personal effort and they just want an easy hunt. I personally enjoy hunting and especially archery because of the challenge and hard work it takes to be successful. Nothing worthwhile in life comes easy and if you really want to have a "once in a lifetime experience" then try to hunt hard for a big bull that you had to work and sweat for. Not one that you heard bugle when you rolled your window down.

I agree that everyone should sacrifice and although this argument is not about rifle/muzzy versus archery we all need to make a sacrifice for the elk hunting to get better! As a "hunter" I am not afraid to have shorter seasons or more competition if I knew that I was going to get a tag more often and be hunting bigger bulls when I do get the tag.

Jason Yates
http://www.BasinArcheryShop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
So, there are some good ideas now...but are these good ideas gonna happen? How can we/I help make this happen? i want more opportunity and would love the uintahs to be all month of sept with bow.

WIDOW_MAKER
 
After watching that clip it sure looks easy to hunt elk on that mountain. LOL

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
As long as SFW is a huge player I doubt any changes would happen, they auction those tags for lots of $$$$$$$$$$$ cause of the rut rifle seasons. You move it, or make it harder. They lose value,so wont get passed. I hope it does, this management plan goes to like 2013 or 2014 so no changes would be made till the committee meets again.
 
I personally hope it doesnt change much, my wife has been saving points for 16 years and I was hoping she could have a great experence seeing and hunting bulls in the rut. It would be sad to lose the good quality hunting Utah has to offer. I understand that many hardcore hunters want to hunt huge bulls more often, but making seasons to serve that end will surely cause the quality of the experience to decline.
 
My wife is sitting on 15 points. We drew the Boulder muzzy this year but turned it back because we are having a kid in December. This management plan will last until 2013 or 2014 I believe so I assume she will draw by then. I don't think the "quality" of the hunt will decline, the big bulls will still be there. But the "ease" of the hunt will surely decline, and which it should.

As I mentioned give 10 tags for rut rifle hunts on each unit, let those that want that easy hunt to keep putting in for 20-40 years chasing that dream. But allow other options for hunters that are willing to tough it out for a chance at a great bull.
 
Isn't there late tags already, muzzy tags already,archery tags? aren't those easier to draw other options? are they not easier to draw? don't they require harder hunting? I don't understand the other option thing, many of you act like there are no other options, you act like early rifle tags are the only options.
 
Piper your asking the same questions that were asked earlier in this thread. READ IT ALL! and what has been explained might make more sense to you. Its about trying to get more people through the system without effecting the quality of the bull. If those people like your self want to hunt the rut then there ought to be some tags available like Coyote Chaser has explained.

CC even if SFW could have some of those rut tags to auction off, Do you still think they would shoot down the idea. As we all know its about trying to get them on board more so than the DWR.
 
I have read it,and I understand, but why ignore the other tags that are already available?, and ignore the fact that many hunts are already too crowded for a real quality experence. What I mostly see are a few hard core hunters wanting to easily draw tags like the Pahvant, thinking they can get a big bull. that and a few archery hunters want the rut all to themselves. Im just thinking the quality of the hunt should be considered also, not just the "quality of the bull" as you stated.
 
Piper, Quit it right now. You're making too much sense! LOL

My point has been that there is already ample opportunity if that's what someone wants. The quality of the experienxe would diminish with additional hunters in the field. If things were changed in a unit or two it would create a bigger logjam in the higher quality hunting units, thus fixing nothing. It would also degrade the value of the points which some already have.

The battle cry of the "change" folks is "get out and hunt harder". I would propose that they could lay off the beer, pop and smokes for a year and buy a landowner tag or hunt out of State.

I appreciate the diverse views but respectfully disagree with degrading what we have by throwing too many more hunters in the woods.

C_c, congrats of the pending arrival of a new baby! I hope all goes well for your family.

Zeke

PS: Look at the number of Wasatch tag and how they have increased by double, over the years. They're shooting smaller bulls, pushing the bigger bulls into hiding and making it tougher simply by additional hunter presence. It's the direction the "change" guys want and we have it already.
 
I am not sure how waiting 7-12 years to draw an archery tag is "ample opportunity" Let alone rifle or ml tags.
 
Had to do it to bust the 150 post mark!! haha

I think Piper has done a fine job of articulating the direction of UT management, whether that is 'right' or not is an individual thing........

I don't think that there is a way to avoid the bonus point butt plug personally, if the 'shooting' is great people will flock too it.......

if its hard, or the quality isn't as good people will leave, regardless of the opportunity presented........IMHO anyway ALP and G4 will probably call me some dumb kid, but what the heck its all in fun anyway right?

littlebeaver.jpg
 
Some of you guys are reading only what you want to read. I haven't seen one suggestion on this post to give the whole rut to the archery guys. In fact I read the opposite hard core archery guys like myself that say they are willing to cut the archery season dates down to decrease success rates and help the overall elk herd.

Having ALL the premium rifle tags in the peak rut is a death sentence for mature elk. (90% success is TO HIGH) Why not have 2 seasons as recommended. With two seasons it would not decrease overall experience as it would spread out the number of hunters in each hunt. A limited number of RUT hunts for those willing to wait 20+ years and the larger majority on a mid october hunt. This would allow guys to have a tag more often and help solve point plug and the number of elk harvested would remain the same with lower sucess rates.

As an archer I FULLY ENCOURAGE THEM to increase archery tags!!! I am not afraid of that or think it will hurt the quality of my experience. They could double or triple archery tags and I wouldn't complain at all. Archery success rates are about 1/3 of rifle tags so taking away rifle tags and shifting them to bow and muzzleloader tags is a good thing for the elk. Not because as an archer I want more competition but because it is better for the elk and helps solve the point plug.

Do the math. You could take away 30 rifle rut tags and offer 90 more bow tags and about the same amount of elk would get shot. Just smaller younger bulls on average leaving bigger bulls for those that draw the peak rut hunts. It is no different than offering 50 rut hunts versus 100 rifle hunts in October. Same amount of elk killed. It puts lots more guys through the point system and tags would be more plentiful. Not only that but archers/ML tend to shoot smaller bulls so quality would increase as well. Our elks age class would go up with either scenario or preferably a combination of both.

1. More archery/ML tags percentage wise
2. Less Rifle Rut hunts than current system
3. 2nd Season Limited Elk hunts in October

For me quality experience also means hunting more often. If it is not ONLY about the size of the animal but about spending time in the mountains with friends and family then we need to get an elk tag more than once or twice in a lifetime in the state of Utah. SO WHAT IF WE ACTUALLY HAVE TO HUNT FOR A BULL??? THE "HUNT" is what makes it fun...RIGHT???

Jason Yates
http://www.BasinArcheryShop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
Premium rifle tags in the peak of the rut is 90% success rate.
HMMMMMM, there are less than 100 premium tags in the Manti unit and over half the elk herd thrives there.
 
mtnquivers,

You are absolutely right. I usually avoid these types of posts because too many people only see what they want to see. And to some of those your post is going to be a typical "selfish" archery hunter. Blah. What you just explained is exactly why I said you can have your cake and eat it too. There can be more quantity and quality. But you have to look at the picture as a whole not as an archer, not as a rifle hunter. And unfortunately too many rifle hunters can't comprehend the archery/ml lower success rates = more tags and higher quality. They just see it as more tags for archers and less for me, and dammit I've waited 15 years for this! But we need to remember that it's all about the elk, right? The sad thing is right now the quality IS going down. But the attitude, that "I've waited ____ long for this hunt" is keeping people not wanting to change so they can have their turn, right. Problem is now they have waited and get to hunt lesser quality bulls during the prime of the rut. Congratulations! There is a way to get both quality and quantity and it doesn't happen with a boat load of rut rifle tags. And like I said before, I'd love to rifle hunt elk during the rut. But it's not worth the wait and it's not whats best for the elk.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-11 AT 02:08PM (MST)[p]Whoa there boys. Now we are taking tags away from rifle hunters too? Give them to ML and archers?
I thought rifle hunters would get more tags with this proposal.
Removing the butt plug so to speak.

"Archery success rates are about 1/3 of rifle tags so taking away rifle tags and shifting them to bow and muzzleloader tags is a good thing for the elk. Not because as an archer I want more competition but because it is better for the elk and helps solve the point plug."

How does this solve the point plug if the rifle hunters are still putting in for the same amount of tags?
 
Rifle hunters would not be putting in for the same amount of tags, you can still give a limited amount of rifle tags for those that want to wait 20-30 years for a rut hunt, but then offer the majority of tags in mid october which would allow more tags with lower success rates. So instead of 50 tags peak rut, you could give 15 tags peak rut, and 85 tags mid october. Tags are doubled, instead of 90 percent success rates you would probably get it down to 50-60 percent success rates. But most importantly your top end bulls would not be as easily acceptable.

Also I am fine with cutting the archery hunt to 2 weeks versus the 28 days or so now.
 
I didn't mean to say "take away". CC summed it up pretty good. There could be more of all tags by moving most of the rifle out of the rut and lowering success rates. More tags, lower harvest rate = more big bulls and more opportunity and less of a wait/ point plug. Again, I think sometimes we say something totally meaning one thing and either we don't convey it well (me saying "take away") or it is interpreted wrong, when we actually all probably agree more than we think.
 

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