SHOULD PAUNSAGAUNT BE A PREMIUM HUNT

[SNEEKEEE]

LAST WEEK I HAD THE OPPURTUNITY TO TRAVEL SOUTH TO WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE MOST COVETED DEER TAG IN THE STATE, THE PAUNSAGAUNT! YEAH RIGHT!!! I SPENT THREE DAYS THERE AND SAW A TOTAL OF EIGHT DEER WHICH WERE ALL DOES!!! MY GRANDPA HAD THE OPPURTUNITY TO SPEND A WEEK AND A HALF THERE AND SAW A TOTAL OF THIRTEEN BUCKS NONE BIGGER THAN A 24" FOUR POINT! SO WHY IS IT STILL A PREMIUM UNIT!! I THINK THAT SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE I ALSO HAD THE OPPURTUNITY TO HUNT VERNON THIS YEAR IT WAS VERY SUCCESSFUL AND I SAW FAR MORE MANY DEER THAN AT THE PAUNSAGAUNT!! BACK ABOUT 10 TO 15 YEARS AGO IT USED TO BE A GREAT UNIT AND MANY BIG DEER WERE SHOT BY MY FAMILY DOWN THERE AND MANY OTHERS BUT NOT ANYMORE! I THINK THAT THEY SHOULD CLOSE IT DOWN FOR A FEW YEARS AND LET THE POPULATIONS COME BACK!!!

 

[Blanding_Boy]

Well what is the deffinition of a premium LE unit? Find out what the deffinitions are if UDWR is not meeting those deffinitions on the pauns but is on vernon then things should be changed right?

Todd Black
BTO

 

[SLIVER]

WOW I'm sorry to hear that Tommy. I was hoping to see some pics of the brute that your grandad would kill. Well I know what unit I won't be putting in for next year.
Talk at ya later. TJ

}}-SLIVER-->

 

[SNEEKEEE]

SORRY NO BRUTE THIS YEAR ONLY LITTLE BUCKS SHOT IN MY FAMILY

 

[tooele]

I don't think they should shut it down, I think everyone but me should stop putting in for the unit. that way hunting pressure would really come down.

T

 

[ktg]

But if they don't call it a premium hunt anymore, they can't charge a premium price for the tags.

 

[SNEEKEEE]

YEAH AINT THAT THE TRUTH TOOELE IF THAT WAS THE CASE I HOPE THAT YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO FIND THE DEER BECAUSE I COULDN'T FIND THEM HIGH OR LOW!! IF I WAS U I WOULD TRY PUTTING IN FOR SOMEWHERE DIFFERENT

 

[SNEEKEEE]

NO JOKE I THINK THAT THE HUNTERS ARE GETTING SCREWED IN THE STATE OF UTAH WITH HOW MUCH TAGS ARE!! I THINK WE SHOULD ADOPT IDAHO'S PRICES!!!x(

 

[huntsonora]

Its hard to feel sorry for somebody that complains about the lack of big deer then goes on to say "SORRY NO BRUTE THIS YEAR ONLY LITTLE BUCKS SHOT IN MY FAMILY". Seems to me that if you want to hunt mature deer then you need to pass up the "LITTLE BUCKS". I am not knocking you, if you want to go out and shoot small deer more power to you but I dont think I would complain about quality. If I am missing something here please let me know.

Drummond

 

[redelkarcher]

SNEEKEE
I couldn't agree with ya more man. It is pretty sad when I saw a lot more deer and a lot bigger deer out to Vernon this year and good ole Grandpa used all 12 of his years of putting in to not even see any good deer on the Pauns. this year. Anyways hopefully that was not the case with all of the Pauns. tag holders.........
redelkarcher>>>------------------->

 

[bonehead]

It's tough to sit back and hear so much negativity about a great unit. And although I definitely agree that the Paunsaugunt isn't what it used to be, you have to understand that you were down here at what is arguably the worst time to be here for seeing giant bucks. Migrating deer herds are never easy to hunt, especially a migrating deer herd that travels as much and as fast as the Paunsaugunt deer herd does. I have read your earlier posts and know that you have killed some big bucks in the earlier years, and that is commended and respected. And "NO," I do not think the state should charge a premium rate for a hunt that has been having below normal success on below objective age-class bucks! But, I can tell you that the Paunsaugunt is still a great area and the legendary status it has made for itself is well-deserved. I have seen more great bucks this year on the Paunsaugunt than I have in the past two or three combined. Maybe I'm just particular because of being in such close proximity to the unit, but I feel that if Mother Nature continues with her graciousness of water, and we have another BANNER year of fawn production, that the unit will be phenomenal once again within the next 3-5 years. I have a hard time believing that it will ever be the way it was in the late 80's and early 90's, but I know it will be worthy of the "Premium" status before too long. Just one guy's opinion, and I am really saddened to hear that you guys didn't see a monster! There were several fantastic bucks taken throughout the week although I did speak with dozens of folks who had the same attitude as yours about the unit. I think it's just a matter of being in the right place at the right time......you do have me very interested about the Vernon though now. Thanks for the post.

 

[Torch]

Bonehead, I can tell that you have spent a lot of time on the Paunsagaunt.....you picked out the picture from Bald Knoll on the "need help post pretty quick."

I spent 4 days hunting down there on the opener with a friend that drew out. On the first three days we saw 4 shooters and at least 25 bucks that were 22" or better. Compared to what it has been like the past couple of years, I was very impressed with what we saw. Although the Pauns is a very coveted tag, it's also an extremely difficult place to hunt.(Especially during the rifle hunt) Most of the people we talked to seemed to be very frustrated and hadn't seen very many bucks. At the same time we only saw 5 other guys out hiking the entire time and they weren't even stopping to glass. They were spooking animals all over out in front of them.

I had to go home and my buddy hunted for 8 days and came home without a buck. After the first 3 days he saw very few deer, but did see a couple of great bucks in his headlights on his way back to camp and passed up some smaller ones. It's a tough question, but it's also a tough place to hunt!!

I drew out 8 years ago and also "ate my tag", because I passed up too many bucks and was hunting one specific buck....but it was still one of the funnest hunts that I have been on. The day that I start judging the quality of a hunt on whether or not I harvest an animal will be the day that I quit hunting. Just my 2 cents!

 

[AZBuckSnort]

I was able to apend 4 days in the Paunsaugunt with my Dad, who drew after 14 years of apps. He had a great time, enjoying the weather, taking his time puttering about the lower areas of the unit, kinda concentrating on one particular area that he and I had been in on a prior hunt in 1990 and again in 1999. He didn't see lots of deer, but like bonehead said, if your hunting a migratory herd and hunting in an area they haven't yet migrated into, well, you're not going to see lots of deer other than the cagey resident bucks that are going to go into Plan B escape and hunker down mode as soon as they perceive a change in human activity.

I can say this, we never saw another hunter in the field, rifle in hand actually hunting. We saw folks riding around in pickups & zooming around on quads, but out in the bushes glassing, unh unh. We had a few different sets of folks stop and talk to us on our way back into our camp and the people we talked to weren't seeing any deer and kept repeating "the deer are all up high". Well, if they are all up high, why are you camping and hunting down low? Who knows?

The old man killed a 182 B&C 4X4 buck after a week of hunting. He took what God offered and I'm dang glad for him! Sorry the other pop mentioned didn't tag a buck but that's hunting isn't it?

As for whether or not the Pauns is a premiunm unit, I have to say yes it is. No one can dispute that the unit has the potential to produce bucks as big as muley bucks get anywhere. When you couple that with the vast chunk of varied country that makes up the unit, most of which is public/state/BLM lands, and then factor in that you don't have to see a hunter if you don't want to, well, that makes it a premium hunt to me. I'll keep applying and hope my growing pile of bonus points gets me a hunt in the 3-5 year timeframe bonehead predicted would be exceptional hunting.

 

[mdh]

Sneekee,

I can understand your frustration with the rifle hunt on the pauns. It is hard for me to believe anyone would put in for the rifle hunt on this unit. With migration and deer population on public land it would be nothing but disasterous to have 8 - 10 bonus points and waste them on this hunt. The deer do move faster than you think when the exodus starts them into migrating. I have seen 50 bucks up on our private land on the unit one evening and the next morning 5!! What I think people do not understand is we are really talking about 2 herds of deer on the unit.
When the deer move up to there summer range some go up on the forest. (Above the pinks.) Tropic Res, area. The others move to the Alton area and towards Hatch. Most of this area is private land and cwmu. I have heard over 1/2+ of the deer herd summer on private land & cwmu. Do I believe it? Yes. I have over 400 acres of private land on the unit in the middle of the cwmu. The majority of the bucks summer on this land as well the cwmu. So you have 2 herds. The public gets to hunt a so called 1/2 a herd and the cwmu hunt the other 1/2+ and some private land owners that get lucky enough to draw a archery tag get to hunt also.
Do I belive the unit should stay a premium staus? yes.
Do I believe the PUBLIC is getting a fair chance at the whole deer unit? Absolutely not! Why? Because out of the 3 premium hunts offered only 1 hunt is offered that gives the public hunter an oppurtunity to hunt the whole deer herd. The muzzleloader.
I belive the unit is recovering and as mentioned above with continued moisture and fawn crop up it will continue to get better. Yet year in and year out the public still takes it in the shorts on this hunt alone. They here Paunsaugunt and think of the late 80's and early 90's.
What the public should be doing is going to there respectful RAC members and demanding that the rifle hunt be changed back to its original dates that open with the state general deer hunt. Then most if not all the deer are off the private lands and the public gets a fair shake for there dollar. I find it quite interesting that when the henry's became a premium unit the rifle hunt dates were never changed. Why were the hunt dates changed on the pauns is a whole other discussion that is in the past.
My vote would be a 5 day hunt that starts as mentioned above. No doubt the rifle hunt will become a better hunt and some private land summer bucks will be taken but that will at least take some pressure of the forest bucks that get hunted all 3 hunts. Remember even though they bucks summer on private land they are still public deer. The CWMU gets there fair share and I commend them for cutting there tags to help the herd recover again for 2006.
I think the rifle hunt had 90 permits this year. If we think we are going to slaughter the herd by moving the dates then cut the tags again. I think everyone would agree that if THEY knew when they drew the pauns that they had a great oppurtunity to see a 190 - 210in buck they would gladly wait there turn. As I mentioned before I believe the pauns to be in a recovering stage, however I believe the public hunter has been shafted for along time on this unit and it is time for it to change. I am all for monster bucks but more for PUBLIC hunters getting a fair chance on the unit.

Mick,

 

[YELUM]

Mick
Great post and insight. I think that the dwr could make this unit an awesome experience for the public hunter by doing what you said. Move the dates and drop the numbers. The public would have to give up a few tags but those that drew would benefit greatly. By the way, congrats on a couple of great bucks. Do you guys film or photograph a lot before the season? How about showing some live pics? Please?

Yelum

 

[SNEEKEEE]

THE WAY I LOOK AT IT DRUMMOND IS THAT IF I WERE TO HAVE A PAUNSAGAUNT TAG I WOULDN'T COME HOME WITH A TWO POINT "IF U COULD FIND ONE DOWN THERE" BUT WHERE IT WAS THE LAST DAY OF THE BOW HUNT IN THE CENTRAL UNIT AND I WANTED TO KILL SOMETHING THEN THATS WHAT YA SHOOT IF ITS THE ONLY THING U SEE!!

 

[SNEEKEEE]

I AGREE WITH A LOT OF THE ABOVE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE MIGRATING TAKING PLACE BEFORE AND DURING THE HUNT!! WHILE MY GRANDPA WAS HUNTING HE SAW TEN BUCKS IN ONE NIGHT AND AFTER THAT THERE WAS NOTHING SO IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT THE MIGRATION TOOK PLACE WHILE HE WAS THERE!! WE HUNTED UP ON TOP THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME AND THE DEER NUMBERS WERE LESS AND LESS AS THE DAYS WENT ON!! I THINK ITS A GREAT IDEA TO DROP THE NUMBER OF TAGS AND MOVE THE DATES TO GIVE THE HUNTER A BETTER CHANCE!! WE ALSO HUNTED DOWN LOW BUT IT WAS HARD TO GET GRANDPA TO FAR FROM THE TRUCK DOWN IN THE CEDARS!! IF SO WE MAY HAVE HAD BETTER SUCCESS!!!

THANKS
THOMAS

 

[quickdrawkinker]

I agree 100%! Great post Mick. I also have to agree 100% with Drummond, it irritates me to no end to hear someone complain about not seeing big deer on a hunt but STILL cant refrain from dumping a two-point on the last day just so they don't have to go home empty handed.......I won't even waste my breath on this issue...........

 

[mdh]

Yelum,
We have been lucky these past few years and been able to get some great footage of bucks and Jer has got some great still pic's of the buck I took. I am sure he is reading these and could post one of them. So, what is going to take for us sportsman to get those hunt dates changed? We (www.llotp.com) presented it to the southern rac last year and they agreed to look at it more in depth. We our planning on re-addressing it with them this year again. We know the DWR stance on it and there reasoning against it. Some groups support the ideas and others have balked. I find it quite interesting that those who disagree are looking out for there best interests and not the public's. Does one get the SFW involved? They seem to get things pushed through alot. I have lived in Kanab my whole life and seen the pauns at its worse and watched our fathers battle the DWR to get it closed so we could get some deer back for who? The public. I seen the unit at its best and honestly took it for granite when as a kid we could drive up the canyon and see great bucks always. Has the unit hit rock bottom? Depends on what hunt you put in for. I believe it bottomed out 3 to 4 years ago and enough people and groups came to save it from destruction. We have a great biologist. You can see it with his tag cuts consitantly year in and year out. That I believe was the biggest downfall on the unit. The next would be those public hunt dates changed to the first of Oct from there traditonal dates. What do you think? Can we change'em?

Mick,

 

[sixgunn]

Quickdraw,
Sneekee never stated he dumped a two point on the Pauns. They came home empty handed on that hunt. He shot his buck on the archery hunt. Too bad to hear the news about the Pauns. rifle hunt. Lots of people spending lots of bonus points on that unit. I think there are better opportunities elsewhere. I know I won't put in for the rifle tag down there until dates are changed.

 

[SNEEKEEE]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-05 AT 10:32AM (MST)[p]QUICKDRAW,

IM SORRY IF U ARE AGAINST SHOOTING SMALL BUCKS!! IM YOUNG AND HAD NEVER SHOT A DEER WITH MY BOW!! DONT TELL ME U HAVE NEVER SHOT A SMALL BUCK AND IF SO THEN CONGRATS!!!!

SNEEKEEE

 

[quickdrawkinker]

Sneekee,

"SORRY NO BRUTE THIS YEAR ONLY LITTLE BUCKS SHOT IN MY FAMILY"

If you're happy then I'm happy, congrats to you on your first bow kill. Wouldn't it be cool though if you all would have let the little ones go so that in a couple of years you can write,
"SORRY NO LITTLE ONES THIS YEAR, ONLY BRUTES SHOT BY MY FAMILY" Just an idea! The most important thing is that you were 100% satisfied with your hunt. Congrats to you on that!

 

[MulieKing]

Utah is not a state focused on producing Premium Deer. I think the DWR is more concerned with putting lots of bulls in the record books. I don't even hunt deer in Utah (my home state) because it just plain SUCKS.

 

[ktg]

>Wouldn't
>it be cool though if
>you all would have let
>the little ones go so
>that in a couple of
>years you can write,
>"SORRY NO LITTLE ONES THIS YEAR,
>ONLY BRUTES SHOT BY MY
>FAMILY" Just an idea!


The only problem with that idea is that odds HIGHLY favor someone killing it anyway. I've passed on several good bucks in years past thinking that I'd let them grow up. Most of the time, someone else killed the buck before I was out of hearing distance.

 

[DonMartin]

Its not just in the Paunsaugant that they are shooting little bucks. Look at the Kaibab, an 12B. Course the 12B bucks are mostly Paunsaugant bucks anyway, but those guys whack every three and four point they see no matter how big it is.

Sane with the Kaibab. On that early hunt, those forkies and two-year olds are gonna take a beating!

I fail to undertsand why folks apply for PREMIUM areas then shoot little bucks..

Lots of places you can find fat forkines and little thre points. If they would let those bucks get somne age on them in the Kaibab, we would see some boomers like we used to!

Anyway, guess if they have a tag, they can do what they want, just don't figure if you wait 4-5-6 or more years to draw, why you would shoot a little buck?

I can tell you first hand that those tags don't taste so bad if you coat them with "Sweet Baby Ray's Bar-B-Que sauce!

Don Martin'

 

[YukonDall]

DON, WITH SO MANY HUNTERS POPPING DINK BUCKS ON THE KIABAB ITS HARD TO WATCH ARIZ. F&G ISSUE SO MANY EARLY KIABAB BUCK TAGS. OUTSIDE OF MONEY, IS THERE A REASON SO MANY EARLY KIABAB BUCK TAGS ARE ISSUED, THINK OF THE WALLHANGERS IN THERE IF THEY STOPPED BUSTIN THE DINKS. YD.

 

[DonMartin]

YukonDall:

No kidding!

You know, the Arizona Deer Society lobbied long and hard to keep the permits at a reasonable level. AZ G&F proposed 1,500 tags and I personally spoke to putting in no more than 750.(Last year there were 500) The Commission was bound and determined to issue a lot more tags up there, and they did. They said that 1,000 was a "compromise."

Yep, just imagine what they would be producng IF they let those young bucks get a few years on them! At this point though it won't matter, those young bucks are gonna take a real beating on that early hunt, especially if they get some weather like they did last year and are pushed into the winter range early!

This might aggravate some folks, but I still say you have to control not only your rifle hunters, but your archers as well.

A dead buck is still dead, no matter if he gets a 150 grain slug or a broadhead through his gizzard.

To properly control harvest of the resource you need to control both sides, not just one! Right now, they "guess" at how many deer are taken on the archery hunt.

Many sportsmen don't think that the herd there has rebounded enough to support this huge increase in tags. I guess we'll see.

Some of the archers I spoke too said they sure didn't a huge increase in the herd, including bucks, when they were there for the archery hunt.

I have a hunter for the late, westside hunt, really curious what we'll see, as far as quality and quantity on that hunt.

Don

 

[YukonDall]

THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSE DON. I HAVE AN ILL FEELING ABOUT SEVERAL THINGS ON THE KIABAB, BUT THE BIGGEST IS TOO MANY TAGS,& GUYS SHOOTING SMALL BUCKS. THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR EFFORTS, I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD/ AND INVESTING YOUR TIME FOR THE BETTERMENT OF ARIZONA WILDLIFE. HOPE I DRAW SOON, TAKE CARE. YD.

 

[PAL]

It's no different in the premium units here in Calif. You put in for years to get drawn and then see people popping fork horns on opening weekend. I'm all for hunters taking the animal that's right for them at that time in general units or with primitive weapons, but when talking a "premium" hard to draw unit I believe there should be a mandatory antler restriction of at least 3 point or better. Especially during the modern fire arms portion. It's not perfect, but it at least gives those little dinks a chance to make it to a second set of antlers...

 

[quickdrawkinker]

KTG,
Believe me I know all about it. Last year's rifle hunt was a freakin' joke. Snow in the higher elevations had a good portion of the deer down on the winter range and the hunters where relentless on those little bucks; everytime I watched anything with horns walk over the next ridge they would get pounded!

 

[RACKMASTER]

yes!........most do not have a clue how , when, where to hunt it!
rack