Wyoming Law on Non Residents and Wilderness

  • Thread starter TheGreatWhiteHunter
  • Start date
T

TheGreatWhiteHunter

Guest
LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-08 AT 00:19AM (MST)[p]


In the state of Wyoming it is Illegal for a Non Reisdent to HUNT BIG GAME in a desinated Wilderness area with out a guide. The guide can be either a Resident or an outfitter. As a Non Resident you are allowed to hike, fish and hunt Small game but not BIG GAME.

What a bunch of BS I still do not understand how this law is still in tact regulating non resident hunting on Public lands in Wyoming taht are desinated a wilderness area. A couple of years ago a hunter from Florida sued and took his case all the way to the High courts only to lose and be told that Wyoming's law was not keeping him from hunting only restricting on where he could hunt.



What is your opinion on this statute in Wyoming?

Do you think it will ever change?



From the Wyoming Game and Fish Web site.

Wyoming statute says nonresidents must have a licensed guide or resident companion to hunt big or trophy game in national forest wilderness areas. The resident companion will need to get a free non-commercial guide license from a Game and Fish office. The law does not prohibit nonresidents from hiking, fishing or hunting game birds or coyotes in wilderness areas. Only nonresident big and trophy game hunters must have a licensed guide or resident companion.

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/statutes/titles/Title23/T23CH2AR4.htm

THE LORD IS MY ROCK
COLORADO,USA
NRA LIFE MEMBER
HUNTING PASS IT ON
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-07-08 AT 11:16PM (MST)[p] PURE UNFILTERED BULLCRAP.....OUTFITTERS ARE DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE...& I BELIEVE WYOMING IS THE ONLY STATE THAT PULLS THIS CRAP....YD.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-07-08 AT 11:46PM (MST)[p]Waptibob you DO NOT HAVE TO HIRE A GUIDE to hunt wilderness areas in Wyoming but either a Residnet guide or licensed outfitter is required to hunt a wilderness area in the state of Wyoming.

From the Wyoming Game and fish web site.

nonresident big and trophy game hunters must have a licensed guide or resident companion.


It is the biggest load of crap I ever heard of but has been a around for a while now and they enforce it. I cant wait till somebody sues and wins causing this BS to be over tunrned.


THE LORD IS MY ROCK
COLORADO,USA
NRA LIFE MEMBER
HUNTING PASS IT ON
 
It's a subsity (poor spelling) to the outfitters. Its been on the books since I started hunting and will never go away. Who has more political clout, united, resident outfitters or a bunch of us dis-organized nonresident hunters?? I deal with it by applying in units that are at least 50% public, non-wilderness.
 
There certainly are plenty of country to hunt that is not a Wilderness area.

This law has never been a deterent to me on my seemingly yearly hunts in Wild Wonderful Wyoming!

Robb
 
Alaska does the same thing by restricting nonresidents to being guided for moose, goat, and brown bear. Outfitter bullship.
 
Kilowatt I was wondering the same thing

I have hunted Alaska twice for moose and never heard of needing a guide for it. I have heard that it was being considered but you hear that talk almost every year up there.

THE LORD IS MY ROCK
COLORADO,USA
NRA LIFE MEMBER
HUNTING PASS IT ON
 
I am going to alaska in 3 days. looked up the laws on hunting. the proclamation states that for a non-resident to hunt moose - he/she has to have a guide. not the exact wording - I thought the same thing however - bunch of outfitter bullship.
 
Indeed it is the law. Indeed it is crap and a subsidy to the outfitters. The way they sell that crap is that it is a safety issue....all of the inexperienced nimrods would cost the state too much in search and rescue expenses, if they went out by themselves.

After 40+ years experience, I would beg to differ, but the guy who said the Outfitters have a lot of pull is right. They have tried to pass similar laws here in Idaho....using the same arguments. Thus far, it hasn't passed. I hope it never does. If you want to go get lost, they should just let you freeze, but it should be your choice!

That sounds almost radical, but it's true. In the land of the free, you should be responsible for yourself.....at least if you're big enough to grab a gun and try to kill a mule deer/elk, you should be big enough to walk out by yourself or at least tell a friend where to look for you.
 
I guess it's really no surprise with almost every other aspect of hunting drifting farther and farther from its root's. If i'm not mistaken colorado's greedy outfitters pushed to tilt the resident to nonresident split further in their favor to 80/20. Watching something as pure as hunting slowly become tainted by the greed of these outfitters makes me sick and I just hope that I can still afford to take my son out west hunting someday. Times are changing and every common D.I.Y. they take out of the game is another voice not represnting a sport they once loved, but maybe the anti-hunting groups are shrinking too. We all know thats not true, just one more small step to being the masters of our own demise!!
 
Yep you can go hiking, fishing, bird watching, camp out for weeks, rock climbing, cliff jumping, photographing, ect ect all by your lonesome...

but you cant hunt because search and rescue would have to come get you...
 
Won't do you guys any good to bee-atch about it since you can't vote here. However, SFW WY claims to have all kinds of political clout in these parts. Tell them you'll buy a membership if they'll lobby for a change. I'm all for seeing SFW git it on with the WY Outfitters Assoc. Both are worthless in my opinion, but it'd be good to see a cage match...
 
I asked my local rep about this last fall and Bob said he's going to try and get somthing going on this in the next Legislature. I'll post more on this later in the year after I talk with Bob again.
I tried to contact the Governor about it and all I got was an email back from a Game Warden trainee at the Cheyenne office.
I'd Love to see a whole bunch off emails going to the right office at the right time, It could get this law Changed.
 
3Xs BB, Funny one.

Got Lost, just let us know the time and address.

Maybe you couldn't tell by my earlier post but I'm not a proponent of the law, just a realist. You can't tell me that taking horses into the Rubys or Unitas is any more dangerous. It's part of the thrill. In unforgiving country, just you, your
stock and whatever you're chasing.

These days with GPS and SAT phones, how dangerous is it anyways??
 
People miss the point on how ridiculous Wyoming's ban on Non residents hunting Big game in Wilderness areas is.

They allow small game hunting in a Wilderness area just not Big game hunting. Pretty IRONIC

I just do not understand how it is federal land (National Forest) yet Wyoming can dictate what non redidents hunt.

So if I am hunting small game in a wilderness or fishing deep in a wilderness that is OK because there is No danger to a Non Resident.

What ever!!!!

Makes about as much sense as Wyoming's answer to declining deer numbers in H and G cut Non resident tags while the Residents are still able to hunt as a general area. The practical thing to do would be to make the area limited entery and base the number of tags on the regions herd health.

Does not make any sense

THE LORD IS MY ROCK
COLORADO,USA
NRA LIFE MEMBER
HUNTING PASS IT ON
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-08 AT 12:21PM (MST)[p]The law sucks.

How about if all other states pass similar laws restricting Wyoming residents from big game hunting in each states' designated Wilderness areas unless they hire an outfitter? Non-residents from any other state would still be free to DIY through reciprical agreement: your state's residents are allowed to DIY hunt our wilderness areas as long as our state's residents are allowed to hunt your wilderness areas.
 
> I'd Love to see a
>whole bunch off emails going
>to the right office at
>the right time, It could
>get this law Changed.

Let's see: paid lobbyists, free dinners & booze, some campaign contributions, and a few illegal kickbacks to create the current law or a bunch of emails from folks who can't vote in Wyoming. Hmmmm... yep yer right, emails will likely prevail.

This law will never be change because most resident hunters support it as it keeps a few more guys out of the woods.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-08 AT 06:36PM (MST)[p] So we can just sit on our butt's and let the 10% of outfitter that hunt wilderness, push every one around.
With hunter Numbers going down and overall hunter ages going up there is going to be a loss of funding for G&F.
I also think you need to get out more around other Wyo hunters, most of the hunters and Game Wardens I know think the law stinks and is nothing more that a way for the outfitter to force non-res to hunt with them.
Maybe it's time the Outfitters need to be on a level playing field with the rest of us.
 
As an outfitter I can personally say I think Wyoming's law is horse$hit... It should be a choice to use an outfitters not a mandate. When I draw one of these tags I will do a DIY. I bet even with my Wyoming outfitter license someone will still cry a river stating I don't have the proper permits to guide my self on one of these units.



Justin Richins
R&K Hunting Company Inc.
www.thehuntingcompany.com
 
YEAH keep crying over the law about having to have an outfitter in wilderness areas Ha how about not having a point system for us residents just nonres. now thats bull$#!*.I would also like to see nonresidents have to apply for an area for deer not a whole region to keep the numbers down in certain areas.The area i hunt is like a town in utah plus other states but a buttload of utahns kramed in there.Don't really effect my hunts but it would be nice to controll the numbers!!!
 
I hit Jay Lawson up about a point sys for Res this spring and there was supost to be a survey that when out about it. I'll check with Jay again to see if they have gone anywhere with it.
 
Hopefully GotLost, that would be nice for some of our older hunters that have been trying to get tags for a long time and no luck.Even some of the younger ones like my nephew who has never drawn an antelope tag and hes 23 (WHAT THE &^%$).PERSONALLY i dont mind the hunting the steep rugged country now but when i age just bury me there haha.Let me know if ya get an update.Thanks
 
I put in for antelope 57 for years and finally gave up, if there were points I'd start again and hope to draw my 2nd choice. beEN putting iN for the late deer tag NE of baggs for a number of years and end up hunting WT around Sundance.
Don't know what antelope area you nephew is putting in for but there a lot of other areas he can draw on the 2nd choice.
 
Quote by clausepeak:
YEAH keep crying over the law about having to have an outfitter in wilderness areas Ha how about not having a point system for us residents just nonres. now thats bull$#!*.I would also like to see nonresidents have to apply for an area for deer not a whole region to keep the numbers down in certain areas.The area i hunt is like a town in utah plus other states but a buttload of utahns kramed in there.Don't really effect my hunts but it would be nice to controll the numbers!!!


The argument is whether or not Wyoming has the right to dictate that non residents have the right to hunt big game on FEDERAL PUBLIC LANDS (National Forest Wilderness areas).

To allow hiking, fishing, and ironically small game hunting but to Make it illegal to hunt big game or as The Wyoming statute says-

No nonresident shall hunt big or trophy game animals on any designated wilderness area, as defined by federal or state law, in this state unless accompanied by a licensed professional guide or a resident guide.

This is not mandated by the Federal Govt but by State of Wyoming obviously we all know it was drummed up by the Wyoming state board of outfitters and guides.

The point being it is public land and Federally funded and maintained by federal Tax dollars which we ALL pay in taxes.

Wyoming is the only state to put restrictions on Big Game hunting in a WILDERNESS AREA.
Alaska on the other hand only puts guide requirements on Mt Goat, sheep and Grizzly/Brown hunting.

To deny one use of Public land use is a load of crap and sooner or later some judge will pull his head out of arss and make a ruling preserving a sportsman?s right to use Wilderness areas in Wyoming for all hunting given that they posesse the proper license and tags.








THE LORD IS MY ROCK
COLORADO,USA
NRA LIFE MEMBER
HUNTING PASS IT ON
 
Posted by clausepeak:

YEAH keep crying over the law about having to have an outfitter in wilderness areas Ha how about not having a point system for us residents just nonres. now thats bull$#!*.


As far a Wyoming ONLY having a Point system for NON RESIDENTS that to me does not make much sense either.

Of course NR PP was only introduced to raise Revenue as it cost $295 a year for pp in Wyoming as a NR.

NR residents pay $100 for sheep and $75 for moose while residents only pay $7 each for Moose and Sheep points.

As far as I know Wyoming is currently the only state to charge a different PP fee to NR then residents.

One may argue this is unfair and so no but The Federal courts have already ruled that the wildlife that are within the boundaries of a state are owned by the residents of that state and the State reserves the right to manage the animals within their state and this means not only the number of tag's given to NR's but the tag fee's as well as PP fee's.

I feel Wyoming dropped the ball by not instituting a PP system for residents as well but I am sure you will get one sooner than later as the all mighty dollar will prevail.

I would like to see Wyoming go to an all draw system for all tags for deer as they have already for antelope.

Having a General tag system for residents does more damage to the herds than a regional system for NR's. Tags for Residents General deer allow hunters to over pressure and over harvest such as is the case in G and H.

In 1999 Colorado went to an all draw system and 9 years later the herds are at an all time high and health. You may not draw your desired area every year but usually can draw a decent to good area every year and still build preference points for your desired area in the future.

Colorado also has a season structure 2nd(9day)& 3rd(7day) deer seasons, and in some unit s a 4th seeason

This in itself limits the Number of hunters afield at one time.


It would not bother me a bit to see Wyoming shrink down the regions a little (they did this year in C) but the real problem is the general licenses. If Wyoming was to change their management strategy and have residents hunt a region as NR do you would see a difference in the deer herd assuming they regulated the amount of tags for residents by region ads they do for NR's.

Wyoming was so concerned about the decline of deer number in G and H so what do they do they cut NR tags for those regions ignoring the fact that a ton of Residents hunt those areas and hunt a longer season. It sure would make more sense to make those areas LE and give a direct relation of tags to residents in relation to the deer Herds health and management objectives.

Quote by clausepeak:
I would also like to see nonresidents have to apply for an area for deer not a whole region to keep the numbers down in certain areas.The area i hunt is like a town in utah plus other states but a buttload of utahns kramed in there.Don't really effect my hunts but it would be nice to controll the numbers!!!




It seems your problem is more with people from Utah and NR's hunting Wyoming then it is with the number of hunters, this is in DIRECT reply to your statment.

I to think Wyoming gives out a few to many tags, of course they do this for money. Do not Forget that NR's Pay 10 times as much for a tag in your state and are only limited to a REGION unless they draw a unit specific LE tag.
Where as a resient can hunt almost the whole state.

This being said it is a FACT that with out NR hunters who Pay $$$ to hunt Wyoming and bring revenue to the local economy The Game and Fish and the Local towns would suffer.


THE LORD IS MY ROCK
COLORADO,USA
NRA LIFE MEMBER
HUNTING PASS IT ON
 
It (wilderness law) has been tried in court three times that I can remember. Once even by an attorney from Florida that was born and raised in Wyoming. He lost! I agree it isn't right, like everyone says, you can do everything except hunt big game.

Only way to change it is via legislation, and your fighting a forest fire with a squirt gun! Protectionism at its highest. And with outfitters as legislators and close ties to the recreation committe, your efforts won't fly!

The law does give us residents a way to escape the nonresident hoards.
 
i agree with the point that it keeps wilderness hunting more exclusive to residents. our economy is based on tourism in the hunting counties and now with all the influx of out of state hunters it gives wyoming natives a chance to get away from the road hunting hoards. to hunt wilderness you pretty much need livestock so maybe the law exists to provide the outfitter who furnishes the horses a chance to keep watch over his designated areas. i know several wilderness areas where the local oufitters would not take kindly to other outfits let alone a bunch of unguided nonres. wandering around and disturbing the hunting grounds that he has been guiding for years. if you want to hunt wilderness, all you need to do is talk to some locals and they would probably take you to some good spots for free as long as you were friendly and humble. i for one would not want to tangle with the local guides and outfitters on a diy nonres. hunt. it is just simple hunting etiquette.
 
If its supported by the majority of Wyoming resident sportsmen then its good enouogh for me. My opinion is too many non-residents want to dictate how a state should manage their wildlife. If hunting wyoming or any other state is that important to someone then that person should become a resident of that state.
-Raptor
 
Those outfitters do not own that land, even though they may think they do. Some WY residents may like the law to keep out of staters from their area, but even they would have to admit its BS.
 
I am a WY resident, and I don't think the law is supported by a majority of WY sportsmans residents. Most residents do not hunt wilderness, so they don't care. I think non-residents should not simply disregard the law, because it is the law. I do not agree with the hunting trespass law in WY, but I do not simply ignore it. I think when the wilderness law was made, it was made for the safety of non-residents, so such things as people getting lost could be avoided. Technology has changed, and people can use GPS devices and mapping tools, and can navigate the land without the use of a guide. Maybe WY should look at what Nevada has in place, and giving a small % of the non-resident tags to outfitters. Not everyone can afford to hire an outfitter, and some simply would prefer a DIY hunt.
 
Put some more thought on the subject. If WY does away with the non-resident law on the wilderness, and gives a percentage of the non-resident tags to outfitters, the percentage should only be given to outfitters who outfit in wilderness. I am not in favor of given outfitters throughout the state a percentage of the tags.
 
My son has a Wyo. lifetime hunting/fishing/ect lic, if he has to move out of state he cann't hunt wilderness he has spent the last 10 years hunting in.
thats BS
If they want to keep the non-res out then Shut off ALL access to Wilderness to them unless they have a guide. look how much money would be saved on S&R.
The law is wrong thats the problem, I will not let a outfitter push me around in the field they sure are not going to tell me I cann't try to right a wrong that they put in place to line thier pockets.


Wyo. Res cann't agree on how to manage the herds so whats the diffrence on that the non-res think. By keeping the game numbers high every one thinks thats good management and then they get upset when we have a bad winter and the herds take a hit like this year. Most of those animals should have never been around in the first place.
The land will only support so much game and it will correct the high numbers one way or another.
 
I know that with respect to the most recent lawsuit the issue regarding non-residents hunting wilderness without a guide was not decided on the merits. Rather the courts dismissed it because the plaintiff had not been charged with breaking the specific law and, therefore, had no standing to challenge it. There is certainly a constitutional argument to be made to challenge it.
 
Its call reciprocity and happens in the industry I work in all the time. If my state charges non res companies a fee of $1,000 and your state charges non res companies $1,500, then companies from your state must pay my state $1,500 to do business.

The only problem here is the WY hunters would pay the price for their state's laws not the state. It would however, turn the WY hunters who wanted to hunt in other states against their state to overturn an obvious unfair law.

If say Colorado passed a reciprocity law against WY hunters they could monitor it by requiring a copy of the outfitter contract and habitat stamp before issuing a NR license / tag. Pretty easy enforcement.

I'd much rather see WY change their dumb law on their own though. I have never hunted WY nor do I plan to in the near future, but ya never know.

My $0.02
264X300
 
Wuz up great white?Hell no its not that i have a problem with out of staters i would love to get some tags in other states myself but i do think they need to do the area not the whole region thing and letting out of staters hunt the wilderness would probably help out with spreading out the the people to, so im all for that.I also agree to going to a draw only system in wyoming for deer and have various seasons like colorado 1st through 4th season that would be the way to go.But for some reason i dont believe wyoming will ever do this which really sucks.We all have the same problem love to HUNT!!Good luck on the up coming season come on september!!!
 
That is correct. My brother is a lawyer and he stated that we can't file a lawsuit until we are damaged by the law. I put in every year and when I draw we will be going to court with the state of Wyoming over their descrimination against non residents. We feel like we will win.
 
Quote by G14

I think when the wilderness law was made, it was made for the safety of non-residents, so such things as people getting lost could be avoided.


That makes no sense what ever as the Law allows small game hunting, hiking and fising in a Wyoming wilderness area it ONLY OUTLAWS BIG GAME HUTNING.

A non resident especially hikers who wander deep into a wilderness on a long hike have just as much chance as getting lost as a big game hunter.

This law was only passed to keep non residents from hunting big game on their own to benefit outfitters.

THE LORD IS MY ROCK
COLORADO,USA
NRA LIFE MEMBER
HUNTING PASS IT ON
 
I was told by a FS guy that he drives up to a trailhead and if there are Horsetrailers without-state plates he saddles up follows the trail up to the camps looking for hunters that are going around this "RULE", He told me if there isn't any out-state plate he goes to the next trail-head, So that tell me as soon as I cross the border I need to stop at the nextest Bar and pick up some plates off the parked horse trailers. LOL

But my nephews are being coming outfitters in Wyo. now some I'm going to take the test too, so I can legally go where I want to during hunting season.

I would be MORE than happy to Join SFW if they would stop this law But SFW will not back the NR for a repeal of this law, They will give some good lip service and that about it, If I'm wrong please post in a MAJOR NEWSPAPER that SFW doesn't stand with the outfitters on this and are backing the regular NR joes.

Would love to see BCH (Back Country Horseman) step up and side with the NR hunter on this law I would be happy to join the Wyo Chapter.
 
As a Wyoming resident I agree that non-residents should be able to access and hunt big game the wilderness areas. There needs to be a larger search and rescue fee added to hunting licences. I have hunted in Montana with horses in remote wilderness regions only to have the outfitters give me blank looks of "What are you doing here ???" Non-resident tags should be reduced in percentage given out in the draw also. No more than 10% to non residents. Every area would be given a specific number of permits to draw - no more region wide tags. With these rules in place I would have no problem with non-residents wildernss areas. Yep - the outfitting industry in Wyoming would suffer greatly. Lets hear from all the non residents that have had good hunts with Wyoming outfitters in wilderness areas.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-08 AT 10:36PM (MST)[p]>That is correct. My brother is
>a lawyer and he stated
>that we can't file a
>lawsuit until we are damaged
>by the law. I put
>in every year and when
>I draw we will be
>going to court with the
>state of Wyoming over their
>descrimination against non residents. We
>feel like we will win.
>


Like I said, it has been tried (challenged) in court three times in recent years. All three persons with lawyers simply challenged it in court, not all three had tags, it was challenged on discrimination. All lost, and were thrown out by judges. There are left over archery only tags and some others, go for it. But you have to get caught first or buy the tag and take the state to task. And I am not certain, but I don't think the state has been sued succesfully to many times! So back up the big talk!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-08 AT 10:43PM (MST)[p]How many times does this have to be discussed on here?


Here I did some leg work for those of you that are keyboard challenged!
Monday, July 7, 2003 8:20 AM MDT

GREEN RIVER -- Wyoming has won another case challenging the constitutionality of its policies governing out-of-state hunters.

United States District Judge William Downes ruled in favor of the state in a suit filed last year by a disgruntled Florida hunter who alleged the state's system for allocating nonresident hunting licenses violates federal equal protection laws or federal commerce laws.

Donald J. Schutz had filed suit in September 2002 in United States District Court in Cheyenne against the state, the Wyoming Game and Fish Commission, and the Wyoming Game and Fish Department.

In his suit, Schutz -- a Florida attorney who at one time attended Laramie High School and the University of Wyoming -- alleged that the non-resident quota system used by the department was unconstitutional.

Schutz further alleged that both the guide requirement for nonresident hunting in wilderness areas and the existing nonresident pricing structure were also unconstitutional.

Wyoming attorneys brought a motion to dismiss late last year and the court converted the motion into a Motion for Summary Judgment.

That allowed the parties to supplement the record with affidavits and additional briefs during winter and spring. Schutz also filed a Motion for Summary Judgment.

In his ruling issued June 28, Judge Downes ordered that Schutz's motion be denied and the state's motion be granted.

The court agreed with state attorneys who argued in briefs that nonresident hunters are not a suspect class, that hunting is not a fundamental right, and that the Wyoming statutes are rationally-related to a legitimate state interest.

Downes said Wyoming regulations that allocate hunting licenses do not violate the federal commerce clause.



Schutz's suit alleged it was unconstitutional for the agency to allocate a higher percentage of hunting licenses to state residents -- particularly for exotic species such as bighorn sheep -- through its nonresident quota system.

Many of the department's big game license allocations are currently set by the Legislature through state statutes.

For example, the 20 percent of deer and antelope licenses and the 25 percent of the sheep licenses going to nonresidents is statutory. Other license allocations are done by Game and Fish Commission regulations.

Downes ruled that Wyoming's fee and quota statutes have a legitimate state interest.

The quota system and non-resident fee structure rewards residents for conservation of wildlife and economic sacrifices in forgoing development to protect habitat, helps maintain herd sizes and provides an economic boost because many people in Wyoming hunt outside of their county of residence, the ruling said.

Schutz also asserted in the suit that he would be forced to hire a professional guide if he buys a bighorn sheep license and hunts in wilderness areas.

But the ruling said nothing in the state's guide statute requires Schutz to pay for a guide, "it merely requires that a resident guide be utilized if hunting in a wilderness area."

Downes said there is a legitimate state interest for the guide statute, including protecting Wyoming's wildlife from poaching, protecting nonresident hunters in wilderness areas and helping non-resident hunters in the proper identification of the species and gender being hunted.

The lawsuit said Schutz purchased Wyoming elk licenses in 1998 and 2002 and that Schutz planned to participate in the 2003 drawing for bighorn sheep.

If successful, Schutz said in the suit he intended to sell the inedible portions of his big game in interstate and international commerce.

But the ruling said the plaintiff's allegation that Wyoming's guide statute "is interfering with his right to consider selling a bighorn mount on E-Bay is even more conjectural" than his assertions that the guide statute is unconstitutional.

The ruling also found that unharvested game is not an article of interstate commerce and thus the Commerce Clause is not applicable.

"Wyoming... is not regulating a significant economic activity," Downes wrote. "Rather, they are merely controlling how and when big game animals can be hunted."

The Schutz lawsuit marks the second time in the past few years that the agency's license distribution system has been challenged in U.S. District Court.
 
That's the point. Right now, Wyoming residents have no incentive whatsoever to do something to get the law changed. In fact, from what I've heard, they're mostly for it to stay as it is now. I've hunted Wyoming three different times, and I can tell you that it bites walking up to those wilderness boundaries only to have to turn around. I probably won't hunt WY again until something changes.
 
whats the fine if a non resident is caught without a guide? i would think its a little less then what it costs to hire one.



"Sometime people say things that simply amaze me"
 
The simple facts of this issue is that it is a violation of my constitutional rights to mandate the hiring of a guide while accessing federal land for big game hunting.How would you supporters of this law like it if every state had the same mandate? It is wrong to force someone to hire an outfitter.
 
1bigbull, you need to reread the post. it says nowhere that you must "hire a guide or oufitter". you must be accompanied by a resident guide. good luck with your case!
 
Quote by NMRaptor
If hunting Wyoming or any other state is that important to someone then that person should become a resident of that state.

I would have to say I do agree with that some what.


The Law is keeping people form hunting Big game on Federal Public land.

National Forest, Wlderness area or not it is PUBLIC LAND and is Federal not state owned and it is funded by citizens tax dollars.

If it was a law agianst Non Residents using state land then it would be a whole different story.


THE LORD IS MY ROCK
COLORADO,USA
NRA LIFE MEMBER
HUNTING PASS IT ON
 
I am pretty sure that even if a person is a licensed outfitter in the State of Wyoming and they are a non resident.

They too are required to have either a licensed guide or a resident guide.

Just because you have an outfitters license does not allow you to bypass the law of a required guide if you are a non resident.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-08 AT 08:43AM (MST)[p]the feds have no control over the wildlife resources of wyoming. that is left up to game and fish. there is no law against non res. from going into the wilderness. you have every right to be there. non res. do not have the right to take a big game animal without a res. guide. there is a big difference and the feds can do nothing about it. if you reread what you wrote in your original post then you just contradicted yourself.
 
If you are a licensed guide or outfitter, with the State of Wyoming, and a non-resident, you do not have to hire a guide!

icon_rolleyes.gif
 
>The simple facts of this issue
>is that it is a
>violation of my constitutional rights
>to mandate the hiring of
>a guide while accessing federal
>land for big game hunting.How
>would you supporters of this
>law like it if every
>state had the same mandate?
>It is wrong to force
>someone to hire an outfitter.
>


You are not forced to hire a guide, you can go with a resident, he can simply get a guide license for friends or family and go along. I think they are even free.

Your constitutional rights have nothing to do with hiring guides or even hunting, hunting is a privelege granted by each state. The 10th amendement guarentees, states rights, and the state has the right to dictate hunting or fishing with in its boundaries.

But just for fun, get your brother to file suit! Do it instead of sitting in front of a keyboard bitching! You can sue anyone for anything in America, no guarentee it will go to court, but you can file suit in a court. Let us know how it goes!
 
Huck, Obviously your a Wyoming resident. I don't feel it's right for wyoming to mandate whether I go with a guide, outfitter , resident, donkey or anything else for that matter on FEDERAL land. When I draw I will go to court and give it my best shot. I would really like to see someone like you get descriminated against and see how you like it.When that happens I can assure you that you would not be so obtuse.
 
sounds like bigbull has an axe to grind with the state of wyoming. good luck and happy hunting!
 
GreatWhite

Every year I see non-residents hunting wilderness, and that doesn't bother me, but the blatent disregard for law does. People don't have the right to pick and choose what laws they will abide by. I think if you read my posts, they clearly state I am WY resident and against the wilderness law. I was just hypothesizing ("I think") what the framers of the law had in mind when the law was made. No doubt the law needs to be removed from the books, but until it is, people should obey it.

Another thing. I don't mind that you quote me, but when you do, please incude the whole quote. Don't be like the media, and quote what best serves you.

G14
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-08 AT 05:10PM (MST)[p]Huck58

If you are a licensed guide or outfitter, with the State of Wyoming, and a non-resident, you do not have to hire a guide!


Huck58 so if I am a non resident but have my outfitters license in Wyoming, I do not need a guide in Wilderness areas?

So what you are saying is I can guide myself if I have an outfitters license or if I am a licensed guide in Wyoming even if I am a non resident.

I was told different by the Wyoming Game and Fish when I recently inquired about the rules and regs for getting a Outiftters license.


I guess I was told wromg?


Do you know where I can get that in writing just curious as that is not how it was told to me.


THE LORD IS MY ROCK
COLORADO,USA
NRA LIFE MEMBER
HUNTING PASS IT ON
 
Gator.... Forest Service law enforcement officers have no law enforcement authority over state laws, so they can not give tickets for violating the NR resident requirement to use a guide to hunt Big Game in Wilderness areas in WY. But they can take down the required info and give to a G&F Warden.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 
I think it was a gamey that told me that not a FS guy But it was a couple of years ago on a MM forum, I know you have to remember this type of post from back then it got a lot response then too, He sent it to me in a e-mail. If I can I will become a guide with my nephews(Wyo. Outfitters) just for that reason so I can travel into the back country with my horses and mules.
 
Trying to Clarify things....

So Wyoming's stance on the non-residents requiring a guide in a wilderness area is that you can get a resident to go with you and you won't have to pay for a guide? If you are out of state and know no one in the state, how do you go about doing that? I think this could be won in the court of law if that is their stance. Perhaps those suing should request either the law be changed or that a resident escort be given to them to hunt the wilderness area.
 
>i know
>several wilderness areas where the
>local oufitters would not take
>kindly to other outfits let
>alone a bunch of unguided
>nonres. wandering around and disturbing
>the hunting grounds that he
>has been guiding for years.

Agreed. But, this happens not only in Wilderness areas. Anyone care to start a thread on this can of worms???
 
RE: Trying to Clarify things....

LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-08 AT 07:26PM (MST)[p]QUOTE BY HUCK58 If you are a licensed guide or outfitter, with the State of Wyoming, and a non-resident, you do not have to hire a guide!




I called the Wyoming Game and Fish and the Wyoming state board of outfitters this afternoon and NO you can not hunt by your self in a Wilderness as a Non resident even if you are an outfitter or have Guide license.

In other words you can not guide yourself as a Non Resident even if you have a Outfitters License or Guide License.

You are still required to have a Outfitter, Licensed Guide or Resident guide because NO NON RESIDENT CAN LEGALLY HUNT BIG GAME IN A WILDERNESS OTHER WISE.

23-2-401.� Guides required; exceptions; issuance of resident guide license.

(a)� No nonresident shall hunt big or trophy game animals on any designated wilderness area, as defined by federal or state law, in this state unless accompanied by a licensed professional guide or a resident guide.

Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor as prescribed under W.S. 23-2-417(a).

The Minium Fine is $110 and a misdemeanor charge for a first offense for a Non Resident caught hunting a wilderness area for Big game with out a Reisdent guide, Licensed Outfitter or a Licensed Guide.

Huck58 here are the links and phone numbers in case you would like to look it up.

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/statutes/titles/Title23/T23CH2AR4.htm

http://outfitters.state.wy.us/rules.asp

http://gf.state.wy.us/

Cheyenne Headquarters Office(307) 777-4600
5400 Bishop Blvd, Cheyenne, WY 82006-0001

Jackson Regional Office 307) 733-2321
P.O. Box 67, 420 N. Cache, Jackson, WY 83001
Most of the Wyoming Wilderness is under
this offices jurisdiction.


THE LORD IS MY ROCK
COLORADO,USA
NRA LIFE MEMBER
HUNTING PASS IT ON
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-08 AT 07:24PM (MST)[p]Quote by Huck 58

You are not forced to hire a guide, you can go with a resident, he can simply get a guide license for friends or family and go along. I think they are even free.

Your constitutional rights have nothing to do with hiring guides or even hunting, hunting is a privelege granted by each state. The 10th amendement guarentees, states rights, and the state has the right to dictate hunting or fishing with in its boundaries.


Huck58 That is absolutely sad but true.

And yes a resident can get a guide license to guide a non resdent for free.

23-2-401.� Guides required; exceptions; issuance of resident guide license.

(b)� Any resident possessing a valid resident big or trophy game animal license may apply for and receive a resident guide license. The resident guide license shall be issued without charge or bond by the commission, any district supervisor or resident game warden upon receipt of an affidavit from the resident stating the names and addresses of the nonresident hunters to be guided, the game to be hunted, the area to be hunted, and that the resident has not received nor will accept directly or indirectly any compensation for his services as a guide.

A resident guide shall not guide more than two (2) nonresident hunters in any calendar year on any national forest, wilderness area, national game refuge, or national park, except as provided in W.S. 23-2-401, nor shall he accept any compensation or gratuity for his services. The name and license number of the nonresident hunter shall be placed on the back of the resident guide license and stamped or signed by the issuer.



THE LORD IS MY ROCK
COLORADO,USA
NRA LIFE MEMBER
HUNTING PASS IT ON
 
A couple points.

1. Wyoming has the right to manage its big-game as they see fit. Wyoming could decide to not even allow NR hunting at all and be within its states rights.

2. The arguement that you are being "excluded" from using federal lands (wilderness) is also wrong. Nobody is keeping you out of any wilderness. Its about controlling where you can legally hunt the STATES big-game. You have full access to the land...just not the wildlife.

For the record the Reid bill covers that in detail:

Senate BILL S. 2978 Non-Resident Hunters Take Note

(Don Causey Note: The following bill has been introduced by Senator Henry Reid of Nevada. It would allow Western States to issue permits to whomever they wish, even eliminating non-residents permits altogether.)

108th CONGRESS

2d Session

S. 2978 Relating to State regulation of access to hunting and fishing.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

October 11, 2004

Mr. REID (for himself, Mr. NELSON of Nebraska, Mr. BAUCUS, Mr. BURNS, Mr. STEVENS and Mr. ENSIGN) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A BILL

Relating to State regulation of access to hunting and fishing.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. STATE REGULATION OF ACCESS TO HUNTING AND FISHING.

(a) DECLARATION OF POLICY- Congress hereby declares that--

(1) the continued regulation of access to hunting and fishing by the several States is in the public interest; and

(2) silence on the part of Congress shall not be construed to impose any commerce clause barrier to the regulation of such activities by the several States.

(b) STATE REGULATION OF ACCESS TO HUNTING AND FISHING- The licensing of hunting and fishing, or of other access thereto, and every person engaged in hunting or fishing, shall be subject to the laws of the several States which relate to the regulation of such activities.

(c) CONSTRUCTION- No Act of Congress shall be construed to invalidate, impair, or supersede any law enacted by any State for the purpose of regulating the access to hunting and fishing unless such Act specifically so states.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-08 AT 10:13PM (MST)[p]take that!
p.s. welcome to wyoming, now get the f... out!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-08 AT 12:00PM (MST)[p]Quote by Elk antler75
p.s. welcome to wyoming, now get the f... out!


LOL
 
Posted by BuzzH

1. Wyoming has the right to manage its big-game as they see fit. Wyoming could decide to not even allow NR hunting at all and be within its states rights.

2. The arguement that you are being "excluded" from using federal lands (wilderness) is also wrong. Nobody is keeping you out of any wilderness. Its about controlling where you can legally hunt the STATES big-game. You have full access to the land...just not the wildlife.



I Totally agree with point #1


As I already stated Non Residents can hunt small game,Fish and Hike in a Wilderness.

According to Wyoming they are not excluding anyone because they allow a Non resident to hunt Wilderness areas with an Outfitter,Licensed Guide or a Resident guide.

They just have laws regarding how you use the Wilderness to hunt Big Game.



1. Never said I was being "excluded" from using federal lands wilderness areas.

2. MY arguement is that they allow hunting of small game in a Wilderness are but do not allow Big Game hunting in a Wilderness area which is Public land.


BuzzH-stated Its about controlling where you can legally hunt the STATES big-game. You have full access to the land...just not the wildlife.


And that is a good point and hard to argue, I still do not agree with Wyomings Law reguarding the Requirment of Guides and Outfitters though.


BuzzH-Good Post





THE LORD IS MY ROCK
COLORADO,USA
NRA LIFE MEMBER
HUNTING PASS IT ON
 
This is one of those feel good threads the moderators should permanently post at the top and leave open. That way everyone can pitchabitch and feel good about getting to tell us how bad they hate the law even though there isn't doodley squat they can do about it. Personally I think with Wyoming's growing population of resident hunters, they ought to reduce the percentage of non resident tags and also eliminate non rezi's from applying for mtn goat, and some of the sheep and moose area's like Colorado does to non-residents with desert sheep and it's moose, mtn goat and sheep area's. I'd even pay the difference in license fee's. Been emailing my elected reps on that one for several years. Just hasn't quite taken hold yet. Gotta like stirring the pot...
 
>Huck, Obviously your a Wyoming
>resident. I don't feel it's
>right for wyoming to mandate
>whether I go with a
>guide, outfitter , resident, donkey
>or anything else for that
>matter on FEDERAL land. When
>I draw I will go
>to court and give it
>my best shot. I would
>really like to see someone
>like you get
>descriminated against and see how
>you like it.When that
>happens I can assure you
>that you would not be
>so obtuse.


I am telling you, that you don't have to draw to do it, and there are tags left over this year, so put in, when you draw take the state to task. Did you not read my post where the lawyer from Florida, who was once a resident, lost???????
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-08 AT 10:16PM (MST)[p]>Huck, Obviously your a Wyoming
>resident. I don't feel it's
>right for wyoming to mandate
>whether I go with a
>guide, outfitter , resident, donkey
>or anything else for that
>matter on FEDERAL land. When
>I draw I will go
>to court and give it
>my best shot. I would
>really like to see someone
>like you get
>descriminated against and see how
>you like it.When that
>happens I can assure you
>that you would not be
>so obtuse.

I am telling you, that you don't have to draw to do it, and there are tags left over this year, so put in, when you draw take the state to task. Did you not read my post where the lawyer from Florida, who was once a resident, lost???????

Get after it "buckwheat"!
 
You are still required to have a Outfitter, Licensed Guide or Resident guide because NO NON RESIDENT CAN LEGALLY HUNT BIG GAME IN A WILDERNESS OTHER WISE.

23-2-401.� Guides required; exceptions; issuance of resident guide license.

(a)� No nonresident shall hunt big or trophy game animals on any designated wilderness area, as defined by federal or state law, in this state unless accompanied by a licensed professional guide or a resident guide.

If they are a nonresident, and a licensed outfitter or licensed guide, in Wyoming, which there are many, he or she can hunt wilderness. I just walked over to my neighbor, the local game warden, and he said, if the nonresident is a licensed guide or licensed outfitter, which there are many in this state, and if they draw a tag, as such, they can hunt wilderness. He even called his supervisor in Cody. The law does not say resident licensed professional guide.

I have to agree, I think the law is discriminatory, but it is a law, and those that hunt and break laws are pretty much poachers and not hunters. Laws are all that hold it all together. If you don't like the law, work to change it., I could care less, I don't have to go out of state to hunt, a deer, an elk, an antelope, is plenty for me. This year I add sheep and bison to the mix! If I want to go else where to hunt, I go to Africa, or Nebraska! Not a big deal.

If you can't change the law from afar, move here like all the other limp wrists from kalifornia and points beyond, ##### about the way it is, and how good it was back home, and spend your life trying to make it the way it was from where you escaped!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-08 AT 10:35AM (MST)[p]POSTED BY HUCK58
If they are a nonresident, and a licensed outfitter or licensed guide, in Wyoming, which there are many, he or she can hunt wilderness. I just walked over to my neighbor, the local game warden, and he said, if the nonresident is a licensed guide or licensed outfitter, which there are many in this state, and if they draw a tag, as such, they can hunt wilderness. He even called his supervisor in Cody. The law does not say resident licensed professional guide.







Here is the name and number for the Wyoming Game and Fish Cody Region SUPERVISOR.


Gary Brown Cody Regional Warden Supervisor 307-527-2733 ext 811

There are 9 wardens that work in the Cody Regional area.

Craig Sax 307-587-4304 Cody

Tim Fagan 307-587-3886 Cody

Chris Queens 307-754-5290 Powell

Benge Brown 307-864-3834 Thermanoplis

Tom Desomber307-366-2213 Tinsleep

John Hyde 307-548-7310 Lovell

Matt Lentsch 307-347-3650 Worland

Bill Robertson 307-765 2163 Graybull

Jon Olsen 307-868-2212 Meeteetse
[/b]


HUCK58 who is your warden neighbor?


When I spoke to Gary Brown he was curious to know who your Warden neighbor was that gave you this info.

I was told straight from the Cody Regional Warden Supervisor that even if you are a Outfitter or Licensed Guide and you are a NON RESIDENT you must have a Resident guide or a Outfitter Licensed guide with you in a wilderness area if hunting big game.

Posted by HUck58
The law does not say resident licensed professional guide.

NO IT SAYS

23-2-401.� Guides required; exceptions; issuance of resident guide license.

(a)� No nonresident shall hunt big or trophy game animals on any designated wilderness area, as defined by federal or state law, in this state unless accompanied by a licensed professional guide or a resident guide.
smiley_beatin_horse_ani.gif


The law is written in Plain English and is Black and White.


Huck58 here are the links and phone numbers in case you would like to look it up.

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/statutes/titles/Title23/T23CH2AR4.htm

http://outfitters.state.wy.us/rules.asp

http://gf.state.wy.us/

http://gf.state.wy.us/downloads/pdf/08appbooklet/08NR45-46.pdf

Cheyenne Headquarters Office(307) 777-4600
5400 Bishop Blvd, Cheyenne, WY 82006-0001

Cody Regional Office (307) 527-7125
2820 State Highway 120, Cody, WY 82414

Jackson Regional Office 307) 733-2321
P.O. Box 67, 420 N. Cache, Jackson, WY 83001


I have posted all my sources that back up everything stated in this post. Regarding Non residents not being able to guide themselves in a wilderness area to hunt big game even if they are outfitters.

Feel free to check up on it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-08 AT 11:52AM (MST)[p]Quote by: elkantler75
why ya gotta beat a dead horse in the nuts is beyond me?


I have bad aim
 
So this person in question can guide in a Wilderness area, just not hunt there?

If this is true, then a non-resident who is an outfitter can guide another non-resident in a wilderness area. Sounds like they need to find two outfitter/guides to hunt together and one carries the gun and shoots, then they trade places on the next trip? If they don't have the outfitter rights to camp, I guess these will be just day trips...
 
Spoke with a county attorney Friday, he said it would be a cold day in hell that he would prosecute a nonresident, that is a licensend professional guide or outfitter in Wyoming, that was hunting in a wilderness area of Wyoming. He said, and I quote, A blind drunk could defend such a person under such circumstances! The law needs changed!
 

Similar threads

LIK2HNT
Resident helping NR hunt wilderness
Replies
51
Views
2k
BuzzH
BuzzH
wstrntines
And you think Utah non residents are the issue
Replies
99
Views
4k
Longun
Longun
Buck300
Non-Res application question
Replies
3
Views
226
Horniac
Horniac

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

2020.jpeg
IMG_1202.jpg
82E3DCB1-47AC-4DBA-99C9-70E2AFDB8E11.png
6890035C-54F1-4EC1-A9B8-5DF4C6B88BE5.jpeg
1710518772797.png
20200212_185059.jpg
80C4877D-C5DA-434F-B133-02DBE3FEED82.jpeg
Big Ole Velvet Buck
8CFD18DA-4EAA-4924-8F5E-B985BB09921C.jpeg
20171002_143215.NM (2).jpg
college 153 copy.jpg
IMG_4296.jpg
Back
Top Bottom