Is 80 yards an ethical shot?

H

HKShooter

Guest
Is 80 yards an ethical distance to shoot an elk with any bow?


HK



GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
It depends a whole lot on weather or not you have practiced at that distance, or if you're just deciding you're going to fling an arrow out there 30 or 40 yards past what you are comfortable with. It's no different with a rifle. With that said, I don't practice at 80 yards because I would never shoot out to 80 yards. My opinion is that 80 yards is way to far to be flingin' arrows. I practice out to 50, and that's even a long way to be shooting. So for ME to take an 80 yard shot? No, that would be not be ethical.
 
I prefer to get much closer.....at least half that distance. I've always felt that a bowhunter should try and get as close as they can before casting an arrow. That's my personal view.

Now, I'm not oblivious to the fact that there are folks that can consistently make that type of shot (80 yards on elk). My hunting partner is a multi-year state 3D champion and state broadhead champion. He was also an Olympic archery alternate years ago. During practice sessions in camp, I amazingly watch as he shoots 3-4" group after group at 90 yards with broadheads! That's using a hunting bow......and a Whisker Biscuit, by the way. :)

And before someone brings it up, it really has nothing to do with today's technology. Many of our founding fathers (Howard Hill, Ben Pearson, Fred Bear) shot critters at much greater distance than that using recurves and longbows. Most notably Mr. Hill......he was simply amazing! JMO.

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
I practice up to 100 yards. I would NEVER attempt a shot at an elk at that distance for many reasons. First off, 80 yards is 240 feet which is about one second or so for most bows. One full second is a very, very long time for many things to go wrong. An elk can travel a long way in one second, heck they can travel a long way in a split second!...not to mention wind, other critters etc. Elk can jump strings too. And shooting an elk at 80 yards is not the same as a target in a controlled area. And the energy lost at that yardage is huge! I think there are a lot of guys who could "make" the shot, but I think most realize the potential for disaster and wouldn't attempt it.

Bohuntr, I'm not buying the professional Olympian shooting a WB. Please send pics. If you send me pics of an Olympian shooting a WB, I'll send you a free WB:) I go to a ton of shoots and haven't seen one yet. And as for our founding fathers flinging arrows...they did on occassion fling one out there, but that was then and we have to be very careful with our image and how we are viewed by the other side.

HK


GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
IMHO I don't believe an 80 yard shot is EVER ethical. To many variables like mentioned by HK. An elk can move enough in that time to make a great shot pisspoor, not to mention all the unseen obstacles like branches/wind/grass blades/etc. I practice out to 100 yards to gain confidence and for shooting leagues/tourneys, but I would NEVER take such a shot no matter how big the critter was.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
HK:

First off, there's no such thing as a "professional Olympian." Actually it's sort of a contradictory term. :) Furthermore, I believe I wrote an "Olympic archery alternate" years ago. Judging by the type of posts you make, you probably weren't around then, as you seem to be a bit younger than I. Now remember, I agreed with you that I personally would not shoot that distance.

No photos needed, and out of respect for my hunting partner, I won't make him the focus here. But those here who know me personally and HIM, know exactly who I'm referring to and his shooting capabilities.

I guess you're fairly well known in the bowhunting industry and tournament community.....probably far more than I, so I can't understand why you have NEVER seen that rest at a 3D tournament. You are correct though, most do not use them in tournament archery. However, I have seen them in several different state competitions that require hunting set-ups as well as normal 3D tournaments. But, again, they are not the norm.

As for our founding fathers "on accassion" shooting extreme distances.....you might want to do some research. Not only have I read about how frequently it was done......I've personally seen some of it!

Lastly, I agree our hunting image is important....to a point. Sometimes the greater threat to our sport is our own folks who believe their views and ethics are the only ones that should be followed. :)

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
Couple points though...Olympians can and are professional athletes, but pardon my gross misquote. Back in the day they used to be "amateur athletes" and could not be paid professionals...it is quite dfferent nowadays....must be our age difference. And I'm pretty sure I didn't say I was an olympian, professional, tournament winner etc, I just shoot a lot.

We've all seen amazing shots, but the facts are shots in the early years of archery were much closer than they are today. Too many people think their bow is a rifle and fling one out there (you mentioned it earlier...technology...)

I knew you didn't want that free WB:)

I agree 100% with you about the "folks who believe their views and ethics are the only ones that should be followed." If no one stood up for sound ethics, there would be no standards and 120 yard shots wouldn't be viewed as irresponsible IMHO.


HK


GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
HK:

Touche on the WB offer amigo......:)

I also agree that there are far too many young archers out there that shoot at live animals beyond their effective capability. Unfortunately, sometimes that distance is only 30 yards! Definitely a chip shot for me and many others......but I sure don't want to make that the minimum "ethical" distance for all. :)

I agree generally with what you're saying, I simply have a hard time telling anyone else what he/she should shoot based on my PERSONAL ideal.

Good discussion, by the way......it's what I like about this section of MM....folks can have different views and generally post them in a manner that's not offensive. Good luck to you this season, I hope you stick a good one.

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
I agree with the conversational aspects of MM. But don't let our age differences seperate us and we shouldn't use them for an excuse. Young and old archers should be responsible and always ethical. Just because one is old or young doesn't make them more or less ethical. I understand your not monitoring personal ethics, but everyone should have a boundary (hopefully inside of 50 yards:)). Mine is 40 for elk and 50 for deer. Good luck to you too.


HK



GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
80 yards? Hell some folks can't even hit the brood side of an out house if they are locked in side with a gun...I see it every year on the rifle hunts here in Utah. Maybe that's why I choose to start bow hunting again. I shoot with a WB and am good at 50 yards but wouldn't take a shot over 35 myself...but hell I'm getting old and probably couldn't tell if it was a bull or a cow much past that anyway...lmao...You right some folks think that shooting their bow two days a year is enough. Last year I saw two deer and an elk with arrows stickiing out of em. Bad thing is the two deer would have been dead if the person that shot em would have been closer before he or she let their arrow fly.
 
80 yards at a live animal??? Is that the question here???
paper plates, paper targets and foam animals wont take a step to eat a clump of brush. I've never seen a paper target jump the string. I don't care if you are shooting 480fps a half a second is a long long time for an animal feeding and taking normal relaxed steps.

Can you guarantee me that you will hit a football EVERY TIME AT THIS DISTANCE?? Can you guarantee that "BUCK FEVER" will be controlled at this distance?? Can you guarantee that you will be shooting on totally flat, brush free, wind free scenario's
100% of the time??

DONT DO IT
 
wiley +1 on your post. Even the fastest bows can't get an arrow there fast enough for an animal not to step, turn, etc. I filmed a guy who was "so good" he could hit the bullseye everytime out to 50 yards. He gutshot two elk at 20 yards that we never found. I shot at an antelope buck whom was feeding at 55 yards this last season, at the shot he still had time to whirl right (as seen on film) and I ended up hitting him in the ham. The shot felt perfect, and upon review would have been perfect. Never found that buck.
 
Damn Outdoordan....45 and you're still up. Hasn't your nurse come by your room to put you to bed yet? HaHa

Steve
 
The only way that shooting at an elk with a bow from 80 yards away is ethical is if you'd already put an arrow into him and he's leaving the scene and you get another opportunity to shoot him.

On an unwounded elk, I don't believe that it is ethical at all to shoot that far. Can it be done, sometimes. Is it ethical, NO.
 
It's outside of my personal ethics, I limit myself to 40yds in normal circumstances and 50 if I have a perfectly level, calm and ranged shot.

My belief is most, not all hunters, need to at least double their group size after they screw on the broadheads. I also believe to be proficient and understand your effective range you should start shooting your broadheads at least a couple weeks before season, I generally start shooting them 1 month before. Then you also need to shoot from every conceivable position and base your effective range on your broadhead performance. Just to be safe you might even want to take of 10yds for the adrenaline effect.

Just my $0.02, and as I said, MY personal ethics, we all need to develop our own set of standards.


Coon
 
wiz, still gettin around, my walker broke and had to duct tape it together, thank god for my depends as sometimes I am not "superconfident" in shorts, but besides that my rogaine and viagra are working great, if I just could remember what I was supposed to do with them. :)
 
You guys talk about 80 yards, well I shot my antelope at 105 yards last year it is not something I normally do, but considering a archery antelope hunt out in the wide open plains you better sight in at long distances. I just didnt pull my bow out of the closet and blow the dust off, I shoot 3D tournaments year round and practiced at a 100 yards like it was 20 yards, so I was well prepaired and comfortable at that distance. I beieve with the technology of bows, arrows broadheads that shooting a 100 yards is a bit better that the old days.
 
I've been reading these posts not only here about shooting long range but also shooting long range with a rifle, and the main thing I have observed is this: it seems that the guys willing to do the practice and actually take that long range shot are more interested in killing than hunting.

I know I know under the perfect circumstances with the right amount of pracice it can be done. But should it???

I watched a black and white hunting show about a guy in Africa who shoots a running lion at 150 yards with a recurve!!!!!! So I don't believe technology makes the shot any easier, the shooters ability does.

Here's how I look at it, if I were an elk, would I want to be shot at 80 yards and maybe get busted in the guts because of some freak gust of wind??? Or because the guy was canting his bow one way or the other because we were on a hill????

Just because you can make a 80-100 yard shot doesn't mean you should. If you insist on taking shots like this, maybe you should check your own moral/ethical meter???

Again, just my opinion.
 
I believe most of you gentlemen have covered this topic very nicely. I respect what many of you have stated and find it refreshing. It seems on other forums I increasingly find groups and individuals promoting their own ability to make the long shots. In conjunction with what I have been reading and hearing, an acquaintance recently handed me a couple of DVDs and told me I had to watch. In one of the DVDs there is a perfect example of what many of you have pointed out. That is, regardless of how well you shoot at stationary objects, the animals we hunt are not stationary! In one scene the hunter shoots at a mule deer at 80 or 90+ yards and while the arrow is in flight the buck side steps to feed and steps into the arrow. Ends up a spine shot and the buck drops immediately, appears as though had the buck not moved the arrow would have missed clean over the top (maybe it was the camera angle). The worst part is that the hunter then exclaims, "I guess that's why they call me launch". I returned the DVDs wondering how many animals were wounded in the making of each movie. To each his own, as for me, there won't be any shooting until I am well inside of 80 yds.
 
There are many long distant shooters that can score very high at the range or at a 3 D shoot. It's fun to shoot and to watch an arrow fly, especially at the longer distances. It's part of what makes archery so fun. But when it comes to hunting, it's a whole different ballgame.
Archery and bowhunting both use a bow and shooting skills. In archery, the challenge may be, how well can I shoot on the long range shots, and how tight can I keep my group on those long range shots! In bowhunting, our mentality SHOULD be how CLOSE can I get before I take the shot.

Bowhunting, by its very nature should be a close endeavor. We owe a great obligation to the game we hunt and to bowhunting itself and we should limit our long distance shooting to practice on the range and during our 3D shoots. I can not think of one instance, where one should take an 80 yard shot, at a big game animal, with the exception of a follow up shot, on an already, wounded animal.

When I hear of guys bragging, about making long shots while bowhunting, it sickens me to think how little they truly understand the real essence or purpose of bowhunting and the obligation each of has to carry forward ITS (bowhunting?s) HONOR. There is not much, one can do, that hurts bowhunting, or its perception, than to take long shots. Bow hunting?s challenge it about getting close and harvesting every critter you hit with an arrow. This is best achieved by taking close, sure shots.

All the advances in bowhunting should be used to insure a clean, fast, kill at a close distance and not used to extend the distance we shoot at critters. The more I hunt the more I truly understand this very basic principle. Have a good one. BB
 
LAST EDITED ON May-05-08 AT 08:56AM (MST)[p]BB, very well said. For those of you who don't frequent bowsite, BB is one of the most admired and respected members on there. Most guys take his views as something to be given serious consideration.

If you have a few minutes and really want to understand what bowhunting can/should be about, go to bowsite and search the archives for "a season on the San Juan". You'll find it to be one of the best threads you ever read on any site. It'll also give you some insight into why so many of us regard BB/buglinbilly as someone who epitomizes what it means to be an ehtical bowhunter.
 
The whole reason I got into archery was because I PERSONALLY felt rifle hunting just wasn?t as much of a challenge for me. I'm not knocking gun hunters, since I still am one. With modern firearms, scopes, and calibers, the kill equation is much shorter than with archery. I have the utmost respect for ALL hunters; however my personal choice has leaned a bit towards bow hunting. I believe it further proves my ability as a spotter, tracker, and stalker to sneak up on animal with a bow. Having said that, I think it FURTHER proves my ability as a hunter if I can sneak to under 80 yards of an animal.


In Chuck Adam?s book ?Life at Full Draw? he talks about the longer shots he's taken. He states that to shoot or not to shoot (FOR HIM) has a lot to do with an animal?s behavior. An animal is much more likely to move or flinch if it smells you, sees you, hears you, is foraging, is during the rut, or is highly pressured. Then of course you still have to worry about all the other factors in a shot. I think Chuck makes some good points, and I would never doubt or judge his capabilities of an 80 yard shot (Disclaimer: Even though the longest shot he reported in the book was 63 yards, so I don't even know if he's taken an 80 yarder).

However, he is Chuck Adams. When you or I have 5+ world records, and over 120 B&C entries, we might be able to speak as plainly about these kinds of shots. Until then, I think I will try to get a bit closer.
 
For the masses, no. 80 yards is WAAAAY beyond being an ethical distance. But that doesn't mean there aren't guys (or girls) who can and do take animals at 80+.
 
Excellent sentiments expressed in this thread without the usual
bickering that can come with it. I have a set distance of shoot and don't shoot. I shoot instictive so mine is much less than alot of others. I always wonder if someone wants ot shoot an animal at 80 or 90 yards, why not go with a muzzleloader?

Technology is pushing archers to go longer. Let me explain.
How many of you have seen the spott hogg 7 pin sight? Ran into a guy out hunting and he bragged he had his set for 30,40,50...
up to 90 yards. I asked to see his arrows. Told him if I saw a deer with one of his arrows sticking out of it's back,butt, or leg, i'd be pissed and libel to send the wardens to his camp.


Anyway, with the 'industry' trying to sell us stuff to increase distance, the only thing to counter it is peer pressure. Hence a great thread in my opinion.
 
Is it ethical to drive 200 mph. There are guys who practice this all the time, in fact have made livings doing it. I don't think that makes the general public acceptable of the practice on public roadways, Because it is easier to enforce we even have laws against it. I think long shots fall in the same category 80 yd shots are not acceptable to john q public and therefore should not be acceptable to the bowhunting fraternity.
As far as archery the sport goes it is nice to have places we can practice and make a living by exhibiting our shooting prowess. Bowhunting does not fall in this realm.

I agree if you are into 80 yd hunting go with a muzzleloader, 150 yd go with a rifle.

If you are a bowhunter keep it 40 and under.
As BB stated we owe it to the principles of bowhunting.
 
When asked this question before I have given the same challenge a number of times. I think it helps people honestly evaluate their effective shooting distance and reflect on the damage that comes from wounding an animal.

Since most permits are becoming once in a lifetime affairs, they are very valuable. Similar to the life of whatever animal you are hunting.

Place a target whether rifle or bow at any distance you choose.

Gather all of your buddies and let them know that you are deciding what your effective range is for your weapon of choice. Also tell everyone that if you miss the shot, they can do your next years big game application for you and you want them to miss the deadline. Thats right if you miss the shot, you will miss a year of applying. Placing you further behind and possibly eliminating any chance of drawing in your lifetime.

Reduce the distance until you are sure you will not fall out of the draw. When you are sure you can make the shot everytime. That is your effective range.

I have also asked people to their face who are talking about long archery shots to put $1000 in an evelope and take the shot from any distance. Miss the shot and I burn the money. Usually they quit talking and they have just determined their effective range.

Most people will never not apply, but your friends will give you crap about your shooting and you will think more honestly the next time you are tempted to shoot outside your effective range.

Just because someone can make an 80 yard shot doesn't mean their effective range is 80 yards. You have to make the shot every time without fail.
 
I agree with 3toes' reasoning...most folks greatly overestimate their "effective range." You hear alot of "Well, if it's in my effective range I'll take the shot." That's a great mind-set, you just need one key piece of information there...and that would be the true effective range. Put something valuable on the line like 3toes is saying (figuratively speaking) and most guys will start backing up (or moving forward I should say) real fast!!! Like I said in my first post on this thread, by and large 80 yards is too far for most to be shooting. It can be done, and it can be done ethically. But not be everyone!!! Good stuff here guys!!!
 
I think to even post such a question will raise the eyebrows of many game departments. It would be nice to have longer archery seasons and more opportunities, but with the current modern day archery equipment that is unlikely to happen out west. It does seem it's more about being a skinner than being a hunter!
 
pro, pete, ww, outdoor, CA, diy, afhb, BB,

Thank you guys and well said. For me, it boils down to respect of the animals. I am an elk freak. I absolutely love hunting elk. I spend 5 to 6 weeks every year chasing them around different states. And I have grown to have an enormous amount of respect for elk and deer. I have seen some unbelievably good shots go bad and some bad shots go good. Not one of those shots were over 40 yards and I see no need to ever double that distance, unless to finish an animal as stated before. The reason I posted this question is, I'm simply hoping to see more good shots go good and hopefully my fellow hunters will pass on good, sound hunting ethics to their children as I am to my children. It's out of respect for the animal, not the fact that the shot "could be made."

My favorites:

"A particular virtue of wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact."
Aldo Leopold-Sand County Almanac

"I hunt because I love the entire process: the preparations, the excitement, and sustained suspense of trying to match my woodslore against the finely honed instincts of these creatures. On most days spent in the woods, I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether or not I got anything: it has to do with how the day was spent."
Fred Bear


"We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."

-- Aldo Leopold



HK


GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
CA,
Sorry, I started to type and had to work and well CA, to answer your question look above. I went out of order.



HK




GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
I know, I know I'm a rookie.

pro, pete, ww, outdoor, CA, diy, afhb, BB,

Thank you guys and well said. For me, it boils down to respect of the animals. I am an elk freak. I absolutely love hunting elk. I spend 5 to 6 weeks every year chasing them around different states. And I have grown to have an enormous amount of respect for elk and deer. I have seen some unbelievably good shots go bad and some bad shots go good. Not one of those shots were over 40 yards and I see no need to ever double that distance, unless to finish an animal as stated before. The reason I posted this question is, I'm simply hoping to see more good shots go good and hopefully my fellow hunters will pass on good, sound hunting ethics to their children as I am to my children. It's out of respect for the animal, not the fact that the shot "could be made."

My favorites:

"A particular virtue of wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact."
Aldo Leopold-Sand County Almanac

"I hunt because I love the entire process: the preparations, the excitement, and sustained suspense of trying to match my woodslore against the finely honed instincts of these creatures. On most days spent in the woods, I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether or not I got anything: it has to do with how the day was spent."
Fred Bear


"We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."

-- Aldo Leopold


HK


GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
Thnx HK
I thought I'd try an 80 yard shot last night while I was practicing on my 3d target. I thought of this thread and said to myself what the hell. After 5 arrows 1 was in the kill zone two were gut shots one spine shot and well that 5th is still orbiting the earth somewhere...lol. I too love to hunt with a rifle and can make some awesome shots myself after being an Army sniper for 21 years... But even as good as I am with a rifle my average shot with it is 150 yards or so.Like said I picked up my bow again after see these idiots during the rifle season shot at 2 pointers up to 600+ yards without regard to the other hunters in the area. After being shot 5 times myself while serving our country it would be my luck to get killed by some tard shotting at spike at 1000 yard thinking hes gotta kill something. Naw stick to fling sticks from now on.
 
pete,

Much respect. My son especially admires snipers.

HK


GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
I practice shooting 80-85 yards all the time. I do it so that the 40-60 yard shot looks short. If you are able to put the arrow where you want it at 80 yards, you deffently can put the arrow where you want it at 40plus yards. Saying all of that, I don't think I would ever try an 80 yard shot due to the respect of animals that I have. Would hate to critically injure an elk, or any other animal
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-08 AT 08:27AM (MST)[p]Well said response HK. I don't think that any responsible and ethical archer will take an 80 yard shot at an unwounded elk. Personally, I practice out to 60 & 70 yards. The furthest elk I've shot with my bow was 47 yards, and that was a heck of a long shot. I agree with silverlake about practicing farther than you'll shoot at an animal. It does help make those shots less difficult, but you still need to be realistic and not stretch the distance beyond your consistent limit.

I did shoot a shiras moose once at 60 yards, but he already had an arrow hanging out of his ribs that I sent through him at 41 yards. Two pass-throughs in the chest and he didn't go far, I watched him fall over. That said, I would never have taken that 60 yard shot if I hand't already shot him a few seconds earlier.

In my 'perfect' world, all my shots would be within 30 yards.
 
pete37901

Thank you for your service to our country!

Ed
482085341158738e.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-08 AT 12:52PM (MST)[p]>My favorites:
>
>"A particular virtue of wildlife ethics
>is that the hunter ordinarily
>has no gallery to applaud
>or disapprove of his acts,
>they are dictated by his
>own conscience, rather than a
>mob of onlookers. It is
>difficult to exaggerate the importance
>of this fact."
>Aldo Leopold-Sand County Almanac
>
>"I hunt because I love the
>entire process: the preparations, the
>excitement, and sustained suspense of
>trying to match my woodslore
>against the finely honed instincts
>of these creatures. On most
>days spent in the woods,
>I come home with an
>honestly earned feeling that something
>good has taken place. It
>makes no difference whether or
>not I got anything: it
>has to do with how
>the day was spent."
>Fred Bear
>
>
>"We abuse land because we regard
>it as a commodity belonging
>to us. When we see
>land as a community to
>which we belong, we may
>begin to use it with
>love and respect."
>
>-- Aldo Leopold
>
>
>HK
>
>
>GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO
>AT ALL

Good quotes HK.......here's one of my favorites:

An ARCHER sees how far away he can get and still hit his target....a BOWHUNTER sees how close he can get before he hits his target.


BOHNTR )))---------->
 
what do you call it when people shoot 15 to 40 yards all the time and the elk walks away while using a BOW?????? I know it happens alot more at this distance rather than 80.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-08 AT 04:01PM (MST)[p]


If i'm understanding your question correctly Middlehoof, your asking why a person who practices at certain yardages, has an animal escape?there are a lot of reasons a critter makes a hasty retreat from the 15-40 yards as opposed to the 80 yards. Your in their very comfortable zone! .

the 6th sense these animals have about their environment lets them "know" when something isn't right. and while waiting for the right shot opportunity, i've had more than my share of animals, not figure it out, but get to the point that they dont want to try to figure it out until they are "safely" away from where they have sensed something isn't right. that makes sense doesn't it

If your talking about after the arrow flies, there are a lot of variables here too and if even one is overlooked, forgotten, your looking and the back end of a critter everytime. stray branches, wind, wrong yardages, wrong elevation compensation...we all know the excuses. it happens.

In my oppinion i would much rather tell the story of how i was 8 yards from the bull (and that 2 of the 7 ticks on the bulls rump were fighting)with-out a shot opportunity before the animal knew something was wrong and busted out of there. than to tell the story of how i hit a bull in the gut from 80 yards and tracked him for 2 miles before the blood trail ran out.and use the excuse "but i tried to find him" to go arrow another one.

So to get back to the original question...what do i call it when things like that happen? I call it bow hunting.



47aa8a9e202b0d9f.jpg
 
In my oppinion i would much rather tell the story of how i was 8 yards from the bull (and that 2 of the 7 ticks on the bulls rump were fighting)with-out a shot opportunity before the animal knew something was wrong and busted out of there. than to tell the story of how i hit a bull in the gut from 80 yards and tracked him for 2 miles before the blood trail ran out.and use the excuse "but i tried to find him" to go arrow another one.

So to get back to the original question...what do i call it when things like that happen? I call it bow hunting.

BUT WHEN SOMEONE SHOOTS A BULL AT 20 YARDS IN THE GUTS AND TRACKED HIM FOR 2 MILES BEFORE THE BLOOD TRAIL RAN OUT, AND USES THE EXCUSE (i TRIED TO FIND HIM JUST RAN OUT OF BLOOD AND TIME) GOTZ TO GO FIND ANOTHER ONE.(thats why archery hunts are the longest running season they know for the most part the hunter will wound one, won't find it, and have plenty of time to wound or kill another one). I CALL IT BOW HUNTING ALSO!! SO WE COULD ARGUE THIS FOREVER BUT FOR ONE THING WITH THE BOWS NOW DAYS 80 YARDS IS LIKE 40 YARDS 10 TO 15 YEARS AGO. SAME WITH MUZZLELOADERS.

not bad check it out:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=03y2BarHcUs
 
Quote: "thats why archery hunts are the longest running season they know for the most part the hunter will wound one, won't find it, and have plenty of time to wound or kill another one"

That's not even CLOSE to why they're generally longer than other hunts. I've actually gone through the process of proposing new hunts to fish & game commissions and I can tell you they're longer because it's far more difficult to achieve success with a bow & arrow than it is for general seasons.

Bows have definitely become more "efficient" in terms of energy stored in limbs and transfered to an arrow......but let's not forget, one of the greatest archers to EVER live shot a longbow....Howard Hill. JMO

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
I don't know why, but some people will read these posts and still not "get it". There are people that can shoot targets out to 100 yards easily. But, on an animal that is maybe stationary for a few seconds at any given time, the animal more than likely, will move before the arrow gets there. 10-15 years ago, bows were shooting at 300 fps, and now 330 fps. 30 fps doesn't mean anything when your talkin about the animal moving, I mean, the speed of sound is what, something like 800 fps, and with the inconsistency of animal movement 30 or even 50 fps doesn't mean anything. YOU CAN NOT GUARANTEE ANY ANIMAL WILL STAY PUT BEFORE AN 80 YARD SHOT WILL REACH IT'S TARGET! PERIOD. NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOU THINK YOU ARE, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE ANIMALS BEHAVIOR. Sorry just had to get that out of my system.
 
Middle--- you said"
what do you call it when people shoot 15 to 40 yards all the time and the elk walks away "
and i took that as to mean that the archer shoots that distance all the time and is capable of making that shot on big game, knowing what is at stake.

would you have me believe that because one buck is wounded from 20 yards and is never found(it happens) that the rest of us should just not even try to get closer because the kill percentages are just as good out there at 80?

Is 80 yards an ethical shot? Not is 20 yards an ethical shot.For most people(not all) 80 yards is like launching little dumb missles, and if your not practiced out to that distance and you go wounding critters you are showing disrespect for the game animal, and for your fellow hunters by displaying actions that will be judged by non hunters as actions performed by bow hunters.

shoot your dang ol buck from 185 yards, i dont give a rats, but if i run into 5 or 6 wounded bucks with just a nub of penetration, i might know who to talk to about it.

Bow hunting is different than arrow launching, dont confuse the two

477ae34e5b284072.jpg
 
QUOTE:That's not even CLOSE to why they're generally longer than other hunts. I've actually gone through the process of proposing new hunts to fish & game commissions :can tell you they're longer because it's far more difficult to achieve success with a bow & arrow than it is for general seasons.

THANK YOU FOR TAKING MY SIDE ON THIS ONE I SAID IN A BLUE COLLAR WAY, AND YOU SAID IT IN A WHITE COLLAR WAY.

HOOF
 
QUOTE::YOU CAN NOT GUARANTEE ANY ANIMAL WILL STAY PUT BEFORE AN 80 YARD SHOT WILL REACH IT'S TARGET! PERIOD. NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOU THINK YOU ARE, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE ANIMALS BEHAVIOR. Sorry just had to get that out of my system.

OUTDOORDAN: Read the posts above all the Elmer Fudd's think that 80 yards isn't ethical because they can't hear you, see you, or smell you so it's not ethical. Call me crazy but that is what hunting is all about right??? maybe I was taught wrong? I try to do these thing so the big one don't give me the MIDDLEHOOF and run's off!!!

Hoof
 
Middlehoof, you couldn't be more wrong about what you're saying. IT IS NOT ETHICAL to shoot at elk at 80 yards, no matter whether you practice that far or not. It isn't ethical and you wanting to rationalize it explains the problem why this quesiton was even asked. There are some people out there (I won't call them hunters) who don't 'get it'. They think they can come up with a reason to support their flawed desire, you're still wrong.

80 yards isn't an ethical archery shot at an unwounded animal. If you must shoot that far, get something where you pull the trigger and it goes bank, then you can shoot that far with no problems.
 
>QUOTE:That's not even CLOSE to why
>they're generally longer than other
>hunts. I've actually gone through
>the process of proposing new
>hunts to fish & game
>commissions :can tell you they're
>longer because it's far more
>difficult to achieve success with
>a bow & arrow than
>it is for general seasons.
>
>
>THANK YOU FOR TAKING MY SIDE
>ON THIS ONE I SAID
>IN A BLUE COLLAR WAY,
>AND YOU SAID IT IN
>A WHITE COLLAR WAY.
>
>HOOF


Not exactly.....you're "claiming" (unsubstantially by the way) that archery seasons are based on the amount of wounding that occurs before success is achieved. I'm simply stating that is NOT a factor when commissions implement archery hunts.

I've been there when they've been discussed....have you? That's a fairly radical accusation on your part, which I suspect is not really your belief......just a way to illicit negative responses here. JMO


BOHNTR )))---------->
 
What's the wounding loss with rifles? Nobody knows because people think if the animal ran away they missed. I'd like a dollar for every time I've heard "when this hits em they go down". I've seen animals hit in the chest with some huge rifles (375 H&H) than ran like a race horse for a little ways. Elk hit in the shoulder that lived for days. Wounding loss has nothing to do with the weapon and everything to do with the skill and ethics of the hunter. Archery seasons are longer because most hunters on a general hunt will never even take a shot during the season because it is so much harder to get a good, ethical shot. 80 yards will never be ethical for a healthy animal because 2/3 of the process is out of the hunters control. Cut that distance to inside 40 yards and much more is under control. The animal, conditions can change but by much less than 1/2 the amount. An arrow travels much faster the first 40 than the second 40.
 
Isn't it interesting how a question like this brings out the statistics of people/"hunters." For example, most plumbers, electricians, framers, painters etc, do a good job and don't rip people off. Most people don't steal or committ crimes. Most people don't do drugs. Most people don't run red lights. Most people are good people....you get where I'm going with this...it's the 90/10 rule...

Most people understand after reading this thread how important it is to respect the animal and our sport. There will always be a few who just don't get it. No matter how hard you try or how much teaching and explaining one does to help individuals understand, they just won't get it. Hopefully someday they will grow and understand the importance of this issue.

HK



GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
ON Monroe the Fish and Game found 8 dead elk after the hunts where over 6 were from a rifle and only two Archery.
 
Is 80 yards an ethical distance to shoot an elk with any bow?

HK


GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL

HEY YOUR THE ONE WHO ASKED THE QUESTION, DON'T BE TRYING TO ANSWER YOUR OWN QUESTION NOW!!!!!!!

so if your looking for a answer to the original question I will say YES
 
hoof,

Just curious...at what yardage do you draw the line?


HK



GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
Wow watching that PSE X Force shoot a 188 yards with arrow groups like that make a person think a 80 yard shot with that bow would be equal to a 40 yard shot. Guys are shooting one pin on there X Force for 20 through 40 yards. Maybe the technology is making guys wanting to shoot long distances, but is it ethical probably not but I still beleive the archery hunters are not as bad as the rifle hunters who see something 500 or 600 yards and shoot and the animal does not drop they move on to the next. This is something that will always be argued no matter what.
 
There's many different variable's???? Let's just say I'm not afraid to let one fly!!

Question to you:
Last morning of the LE Elk hunt, 390+ class bull 85 yards away no wind, slightly down hill 2 more step's and bull is gone. I know you have a 60 yard pin because everybody has one, you put it at the top of his back and________________________________

a. I let one fly
b. I don't let one fly
c. I throw my rambo knife at him
d. I wait for the evening and all day long I ponder over the
shot I had
 
I've been there when they've been discussed....have you? That's a fairly radical accusation on your part, which I suspect is not really your belief......just a way to illicit negative responses here. JMO


BOHNTR )))---------->

Haven't been to a meeting (utah), since they moved the muzzlerloader hunt from Nov to sept(Deer). Cause the reason they did this they felt bad that the poor bucks were getting chased around at the same time they were chasing does, the bucks were wasting to much energy and would have a hard time making threw the winter. So now they let the bucks chase does around and breed them, and then slaughter the does after they have been bred(we transplanted does to other areas years ago and it worked, but costs the state too much $$$ they say, even though people used there own truck, gas, and trailer to transport the deer). Just watch the state is going to screw there elk heard now with all the BULLS/COWS tags. So for your question? I can't say I've been to a meeting lately. I could go POSTAL if i went again and listened to them dam Biologist's they don't have a clue.
 
Desert bucks since they are shooting 1 pin from 20 -40 yards and there is 10-11" of drop at 340- 350ft per sec there must be a little compensating going on somewhere. PSE makes quite a few claims about that bow and it seems to be a good one but some of their claims are exaggerated a bit. For those of you that think I'm nuts site your bow dead on at 20 yards 1" center target and then move back and shoot the same pin at 40 and hold dead center. That arrow won't hit in a 4" center ring at forty unless you compensate. Archery has come a long way but not that far yet. You're 100% correct Desert rifle hunters wound many times more animals than archers ever have.

Archery hunting used to be about the challenge of getting close and taking the shot. Now there seems to be new thinking that it's about the shot and to some it doesn't matter at what distance. There in lies the issue and to those of you that think the fudds of the world are wrong. I'll bet you that the fudds have shot more deer and elk with their bows and yet they're taking the harder to get (closer) shots...Hmmm. Maybe there is something to getting a little closer to improve your margain of error on the shot being related to success.

By the way hoof I' don't think I'd pick on Bohuntr too much since he's probably killed more big deer with a bow than most of us have shot with all weapons combined. You may just learn a thing or two from him if you give him a chance. He has a pretty good reputation and if you ask him something he'll do his best to help you. Experience is the best teacher and in this case you've found a professor.
 
hoof,

I'm really curious now!

At what yardage do you not "let one fly?" Or do you give yourself the green light anytime you see an ungulate at any yardage. Would you take a 120 yard shot at your 390 bull on the last day? Just curious.

And to answer your question about the last day 390 bull...I would put down my bow, grab my video and start shooting him with it. I think if you tried this method of hunting you might eventually enjoy it more than letting them fly IMHO.

Just so you know an ungulate is a four legged hooved animal.


HK



GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
middlehoof, I have a LE archery elk tag here in Utah this year on a great unit. I will NOT shoot at a bull at 80 yards regardless of which day it is and how big the bull is. Take that to the bank, if I am not good enough to get closer, the bull won and deserves better than a questionable shot that is likely to result in a bad ending. I have way too much respect for the animals I hunt than to do that, I also have way too respect for the sport of hunting to tarnish it that way. But, that's just me, feel free to do what you can live with and sleep with. You can justify anything if you try hard enough, but it doesn't make it any less wrong!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro,

Very strong and very true. I think your sentiments are the making of a country song...It would go like this..."I'd done a lot of things different...." Oh wait that song is already done:)

We've all done some stupid thing. Hopefully this thread will make those who comprise the 10%, a.k.a. "flingers", just a bit more aware.


HK


GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
Hoof - Still not getting it. The movement is not from noise alone, animals don't stand still, the noise doesn't help any.

HK - Right on about the video, I always have either my Canon XL or my handheld. In fact, sometimes I chase them with just the camera/s.

Pro - I don't always agree with you, but in the case, I do 100%, I hope you kill that 390 bull, pissing and drooling at 10 yards, now THAT is what its all about!
 
You guys talk about ethical but what about the bowhunters who dont use a rangefinder, is that ethical? What about the bowhunters who have a ragefinder but dont have time to use it, and they let a arrow fly? Should a experienced bowhunter judge the yardage and let a arrow fly? We all know with most bows five yards could be huge on the vitals of a animal.
 
HK

120 yards is probably unethical, but I would try to get 20 yards closer for the ethical shot.

hoof
 
Some of us practice guessing the distance and you can get pretty good out to 40+. With modern equipment 5 yards isn't nearly the problem it used to be. My top pin is within 3 inches up/down out to 25. If it is much beyond that I'll have time to range or not shoot. Don't some of you people realize that ethical bowhunters pass up a lot of shots? Even on good animals? If you're not confident of the shot you don't shoot. Is that so hard to understand? I'd love to have all the money from unfilled tags because I chose NOT to shoot.
 
I am not near as worried about shooting over or under, hell, I've done that my share of times. I am worried about the animal repositioning. If I mis-guess the yardage at 30 or 40 yards, more than likely I will shoot over or under. If I would shoot at 80 yards, and it repositioned, which is very possible, there is a greater likely hood of me shooting it in the gut, neck, etc.
 
desert,
I've had those nightmares Pro speaks of and believe me when I say they stick with you your entire life. Because of those whatifs, I will never go anywhere without my rangefinder. I practice yardage games all day long. I trigger my range finder probably 100s of times a day. I carry a spare battery and will never go hunting without it. I can judge yardage as good as most. I have shot critters without using it but they were what I call too close to use a rangefinder. But if it is 20 yards or more, I'll use it every time. Yardage is tricky, tricky stuff.

IMHO I think you should always have one handy.

hoof,
I'm relieved to know you do have a boundary. I was starting to wonder... I think you'll come around someday. It might take a few nightmares though.



HK



GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
Desertbucks

These guys makin these statments(not everybody) better not be using rangefinders(because there dead eye's) or radio's because it sounds like there trying to follow the LAWS OF P&Y and B&C because radio's are unethical as a 80+ yard shot.
 
WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO IS ONLY TAKE SHOTS THAT YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL ARE COMFORTABLE WITH. IS IT ETHICAL TO TAKE 80 YARDS SHOT, WELL I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL AND HOW MUCH HE PRACTICES AND KNOWS HIS EQUIPMENT. IVE SEEN GUYS MAKE BAD SHOTS ON 20 YARD ANIMALS JUST AS I HAVE SEEN ON 80 YARD ANIMALS. MOST IMPORTANT THING IS PRACTICE AND KNOW YOUR LIMITS.
 
A twenty yard shot that is missed will still usually be an ethical shot. Regardless of whether a guy kills a bull, wounds him or misses him...an 80 yard shot at an unwounded elk is UNETHICAL.

Whether the shot can be made or not doesn't determine the ethics behind the decision to pass the shot at this distance.

Middlehoof, I guess you're a guy who just doesn't go home with a tag in his pocket, unless you wound and lose an animal. You should be a hell of a fisherman, as much as you like to troll.
 
CAelknuts:
I love to troll you can drink more beer that way!!And I still catch my limit. and for tags I go home with alot of them, only killed 4 bucks and 1 bull over the last 13 years. Haven't lost one yet!or missed a hunt yet(deer)!

HOOF
 
I just joined Monster Mulies and founed this forum would like to say this forum isent like others where pepole are fighting and insalting others good job.On 80 yards or not. I hunt wide open spaces for 25 years the longest shot I have took is 60 yards and hit my mark.Iknew the yardage for I have watched this buck for two weeks every day I knew what he did and where I would be.If every thing is right maby 80 my self Ive had bad hits at 30 or 40.Just make shur what ever shot you take every thing is right. Good hunting.
 
Hell no. I dont care how good you think you are at the range. All you are going to do is wound a bull or deer that someone could have otherwise taken from a reasonable distance. I was in Idaho last year and one group of 6 bowhunters had shot 3 bulls they never found. Its hard enough shooting a real live animal from 20 yards much less 80. I felt guilty just hearing them tell me the stories.
 
They could have been closet hunters, that is a guy who takes his bow out of the closet and blows the dust off ans shoots a few days before season. This is the biggest problem with bowhunters, you have to shoot on a regular basis and know your equipment and your yardage. I shoot 3D tournaments and leagues year round to prepare for hunting season. Shooting at animals is a year round commitment not a few days before the season. This is unethical for any bowhunter who does not shoot year round, I CANNOT STRESS it enough.
 
80 yards is not an ethical Bowhunting shot. Only time I would do such a thing would be if I had a wounded animal that needed to be killed.

This issue to me is not can I make the shot. There is no doubt I can and could do it. I can shoot farther. Regardless of whether you are the greatest archer in the world. Our abilities, IMHO, do not diminish the obligation we have to only take shots at animals we are 100% confident we can make 100 out of 100 times.

If we want to shoot further we should pick up a gun. Bottom line, 80 yards is NOT ethical. Period.
 
I would like to see Game & Fish make every bowhunter shoot (3) arrows per target at a paper plate at twenty, thirty and forty yards and the individuals who can hit it everytime can put in for archery tags and the rest can keep practicing, because think about it that is very realistic and would seperate the closet hunters. Now this does not sound very tough but believe me alot of guys cannot hit a paper plate at forty yards.
 
I have had fun reading this thread. I always think it is funny to listen to people tell other people what is ethical and demand everyone else to follow there model. The original question in the subject line was "IS 80 yards an ethical shot" I would like to take the elk part out and just leave the question in the subject line. The true answer is it depends. Every situation is different. Some will say that since I didn't say no I am unethical. But taking some thoughts from the thread makes the point clear. Some say if you make a bad shot at 20yds it most likely is going to be fatal. Does that make it ethical to have taken a bad shot because it is 20 yds? Looking at things this way you bet your arse I would rather make an 80yd perfect shot than a crappy 20 yd shot. If I prove to some of you that I am a great bowhunter and get to within ft of a buck and then bust him out and fling an arrow at him busting out hitting him in the hind end am I ethical? Or should I have stayed back say 20 yds not spooked him and shot him when he stood? Who is the better bowhunter. My point again is every situation is different. So would I shoot an Elk at 80 yds? Probably not but I will not say no because I wont know till I am in that particular situation. Now if I had to make a general statement I would say 80yds is to long but as mentioned very doable with the right equipment in the right hands. I will be the first to say that 80 yds is a long ways out there and taking a shot that far is not my first choice.

But reading this post I now realise that because I don't shoot 3d trny yr round and don't shoot my bow everyday all summer I am unethical. I have a 7 pin sight on my bow so I must be unethical. I have shot deer past someone elses range so I must be unethical. I have never taken an archery hunter ed class so I must be unethical. I didn't put archery down as my first choice so I must be unethical. Some of you make very valid reasons why one should not shoot 80 yds and I would suggest not demand that others think about them and decide if they really are capable of making the shot before it is released. I will take a shot only when I feel it is right to do so. If it is point blank to whatever distance. I make the decision. Personal ethics is what guides me to make the decision to shoot or not.
 
I have serious doubts on the effectiveness of MANDATORY pass/fail tests. I have seen guys out shoot me on targets and not be able to hit squat in the field. Mandated bow ed with gain little IMHO. I know people who have been through these classes who STILL believe a 80 yard shot is just fine. You can't enforce ethics any easier than you can enforce morality. Peer pressure from fellow hunters is the only effective way I can think of. Just as a 500+ yard rifle shot can't be 'outlawed', neither can a 80+ yard archery shot. You can't fix arrogance with a mandated course. All that will do is discourage people from the sport of bowhunting, which goes contrary to what I desire, I want MORE bowhunters not fewer.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro,

I agree, That is why we have not really tried for a mandatory class. Bow Ed is a great tool for helping young hunters and for older hunters to discuss ethics and bowhunting in general. This exact question comes up every class. The answer is always debateable. Ethics are not laws. The majority of bowhunters believe an 80 yard shot to be unethical. I am in that group. I ALSO believe an 8 yard shot in heavy cover is unethical. While it is true that every shot has its own pro's and con's. Each situation is completely different and could be justified. For those of you who think you can make this shot, good on ya. For me, it is a shot I will not take on an unwounded animal. Ethics are personal and as stated before, that is okay. Have a great day guy's.

Chad
 
IS AN 80 YARD SHOT ETHICAL? WELL LIKE I SAID BEFORE IT DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL AND HOW WELL THEY KNOW THERE EQUIPMENT AND HOW OFTEN THEY PRACTICE. IT WOULD NOT BE FAIR TO SAY THAT IT IS BECAUSE THEN EVERYONE THAT READS THIS POST WOULD TAKE THAT INFO AND APPLY IT.
 
So D-bucks how many days off can you take from shooting before you are unethical? If I've used the same equipment for 10 years do I need the same amount of shooting to know my equipment and yardage? If I shoot pins, peep, and release do I need the same amount of practice as the instinctive shooter? Trying to call a level of practice unethical is the same thing as defining a distance for everyone. After shooting for 35 years it is a lot easier for me to still be accurate with my modern equipment than it was back then with my recurve practicing daily. I didn't shoot fall or winter leagues this year and it won't make any difference that matters on my shot at that monster bull this fall. Over the next 4 months I'll get plenty of shooting in sitting, kneeling, uphill, downhill, etc, etc. Everyone's skill level and need for practice are different. Just be ready and stay within your effective range.
 
A question deserves another question? Is a 500 yard shot offhand with a rifle unethical? Both can be done and are every weekend on ranges across our country. The fact that both are done offhand without a rest makes them more difficult. The fact the bow is not as exact a weapon due to the forces exerted upon it to hold and release the arrow further magnifies the errors

Lets say you were shooting 350ft/sec (which is faster than 98% of all archers shoot when hunting) at 40 yards that arrow drops 25 inches and at 80 yards it drops 109 inches. Factor in that when making the shot the shooter moves the bow 1/2 the distance between pins shooting at that speed ( around 1/8 an inch) that alone can cause the arrow to deviate 20" or more right , left up or down. Couple those together and you have a recipe for failure and we haven't even factored in the wind, animal movement or a slight jerk at the release. Closing the distance to 40 yards increases the odds of success substantially. It's your hunt so make the most of it but realize that at that distance your odds of failure escalate at a much higher rate than with any other weapon type, than they do at a closer distance. Unethical may not be the right choice of words for some but if you look at the forces exerted upon the arrow and see how many deviations may be involved the odds are much better with each step you take to close the gap between you and your animal. Sometimes it's better to let them walk than to shoot outside your capability and let that magnificent animal wind up coyote bait and taint your memory of the hunt. No matter how much you want that animal wounding him and losing him won't put that rack over the mantle or make you feel better in the end. It's your shot make the most of it you'll appreciate hunting much more in the end.
 
Pro and Boskee,
Both well reasoned comments. Thanks for those contributions. It would be great if we could mandate certain standards, but that becomes a slippery slope in this day and age. Who determines what is good enough? Take the wolves issue, how many are enough? Imagine if we had ARF's running the proficiency testing, nobody would ever pass. Would you still support it then? I think it's a good concept, but not practical to apply.

Ethics are not finite and definate. People violate them all the time and get away with it, then sometimes they get their hand slapped and look bad. You have to do what you know if right, and some people just don't understand that. Some others just don't have the same amount of conscience as others so they will say it's OK to do this, while others will know it isn't OK.

And it'll never be solved absolutely, either way.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-09-08 AT 11:04PM (MST)[p]One thing that can be solved however is MATH equations. I know you cool tough guys hate math, but let me enlighten you with a bit of math. I promise it will BLOW YOUR MIND!

For math purposes lets say most bows really shoot about 240 feet per second. And let's round the speed of sound to 1,200 feet per second.

80 yards = 240 feet which equals 1 second

If you shoot your bow at an elk at 80 yards, it will take 1 full second to get there.

Sound carries at 1,200 feet per second.

240 feet / 1,200 = .2 seconds

That means the elk has .8 seconds to react to the sound it just heard.

Stay with me now it gets better. And sorry for hurting your brain Hoof. I'm just trying to help.

If you were to take let's say a 20 yard shot at an animal...

60 feet / 1,200 = .05 seconds

That means the elk has .2 seconds to react to the sound it just heard.

Here's the clincher boys. Your arrow traveling at 240 feet per second will be there in .25 seconds.

So by the time the elk has heard the bow go bang it has roughly .2 seconds to get out of the way at 20 yards and your arrow is there .05 seconds later.

I don't know about you guys, but the analytical side of me says my odds will increase a great deal the closer I get.

And if you want to know how far a critter can move in .8 seconds, watch a track meet and see what a .8 second split does in the 100 meters.

This is just more ammo for you'all to understand and hopefully the "flingers," in the conversation will at least think about their next 80 yard shot in to; "What The Hell, Why Not World."

If you guys don't get the math thing then think that the speed of sound travels at 770 miles per hour! More than twice that of a Top Fuel dragster....Just trying to hopefully connect with the disconnected 10%, who don't get it yet.


HK


GO HARD KORE OR DON'T GO AT ALL
 
Hk brings up some great info that one needs to understand weather shooting 20yds or 1000yds. It applys to bows, muzzelloaders, and centerfire rifles. But just because the math is correct doesn't make a long shot unethical. It just tells you that you need to take it into consideration.

I believe the math is the leading reason animals are hit high or shot over. The math is the only thing that is absolute. But the animals reaction is not. The one biggest factor for me is the animal and what I think he will do. The more you are around animals the more you start to be able to read there behavior. No one knows what an animal will do. As an example when he hears the sound will he drop and spring away? Or will he stand straight up and look for the sound. This can make or break a shot.

Testing your equipment is critical. Not just for accuracy. Some broadheads whistle in flight some do not. Test your equipment and find out for yourself you might be shocked. Because of the math I will take the one that doesn't make any noise or the least amount.
 
We can all get on here and express our opinios of the definition of ethical and unethical. Who really cares?? When you are all by yourself and you decide to take an "unethical" shot, then you will know what it means.

You can't hide from yourself, and if you ever do wound an animal and it gets away, all because you decided to take the shot, then you are the one that will have to live with that decision everyday for the rest of your life.

I'm new to bowhunting but I know damn well I don't want to launch some shot at an animal just because I can. It's not cool, you're not cool, and only you and your idiot friends will brag about it.

Maybe we should ask the question: "If you wanted to be executed would you want to be shot from 20 yards or 80 yards?"

You're taking a life, take it with as much respect as possible. Not so you can look cool.

By the way, the answer to the question "is it ethical to take an 80 yard shot on an elk" is NO.
 
NO!!!!! Those that try to argue the reasoning why you can or could, should not be hunting!
 
It sure is nice to hang out with all you ethical bowhunters! But you must hunt in a different world than I hunt in.

I have never killed a big game animal with a bow. I hunted with a long bow back in the 60s (back before compound bows existed), for about 5 years. The only buck I shot at was about 20 yards away and I got excited and missed low. Back then it was common to walk hunt and see 7-10 bucks a day. I didn't know what road hunting was.

I bought a new compound last year but other draw hunts in Wyoming prevented me from bow hunting. I did get out for one day right at the end of season.

My point is, I talk to a lot of bowhunters around here (kind of around the water cooler at work type thing). I would say that 80% of them ride their quads and shoot from their quads. The typical story goes like "I came around the corner and this buck was standing under a tree. I stopped and held my 60 yard pin above his back and let loose. I figure you can't kill one if you don't shoot." And I would say that for every buck taken, at least 5 were hit and not recovered. The ones who wound and lose deer aren't too worried because there is still time to tag a buck later with a rifle.

My experience tells me that 80% of archers aren't archery hunters at all. They have a bow so they can get out and fling arrows before the rifle season. And who knows, they might actually make a good hit and get one.

Sorry, that's the reality as I see it.

Eel
 
Eel, that's totally disgusting in my book, the way those guys do things. Remember the term SLOB hunters? That's those guys.

While I'm not going to suggest any specific distance as the limit for an ethical shot, as it varies from hunter to hunter, 80 yards it beyond ethical range for anyone.

Personally, the farthest I've shot any animal with my bow is 47 yards, and I figure that's about as far as I should be shooting at an unwounded animal. I'll shoot farther, but not a lot farther.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-11-08 AT 10:38AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-11-08 AT 10:20 AM (MST)

Here's some math,80 yards 240 feet, Average bow 275 fps, ( ISO Speed doesn't mean crap!!! )speed of sound 1101.7242 fps. hummm. At that the animal hears the sound of a bow 4x faster than the speed of the arrow that was shot at it. Any hunter knows that an animals reflexes are quicker then any humans. That's the biggest difference between a rifle bullet flying 2-3 x the speed of sound and an arrow not flying fast at all. At 80 yards an animal has close to a full second to react. Hell football games,basketball games and auto accidents have ended with less time than that. Come on folks lets get real. I have seen em all when I was an instructor at the US Army sniper school. I've seen the guy that thought his crap didn't stink and couldn't make it through the first week, and have seen the guy that wanted to learn and could shoot a fly off a turd at 1000 yards. WITHOUT A RANGE FINDER !!!! Only about 25% of people shoot as good as they think they can, so what makes you long range shooters think your any different? Oh I get it because you hit the target what 1 or two times in your life?


Is an 80 yard shot with a bow ethical? Only if you have no ethics.
 
I know a few guys on this forum that can hit a golf ball 9 out of 10 times at 80 yards, but I doubt they can be sure that an animal won't move during the arrow flight. So, unless that bull elk is laying down asleep, even these guys, who are in a league 99% will never get to, shouldn't take such a shot, IMHO.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Eel,

You need some new friends !!!!

I've been around long enough that who I hunt with is more important than what I might kill. I would only share a camp with someone like you described once.

Obviously deciding to take or not take a specific shot is personal, but as a group we live with each individual bowhunters choices.

Getting a shot and missing is not success. Making a bad shot is failure. Do you talk about the other failures in your life as easily as you talk about your bowhunting failures???????
 
Sorry, Eel Question was directed at bowhunters in general, not you specifically. I apologize.

Missing a rifle shot is an embarassment. Bowhunters seem to brag about getting a shot and missing, or even wounding an animal.

Why do we brag about our failures????
 

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