Mule Deer Population

[Omahage]

Hey guys, what are your thoughts about what has effected the mule deer population the most over the years? Predators? Over hunting? Vehicle collisions? I'm writing a paper on the subject for a college class. A good discussion would help! Personally I believe bad management of permits can ruin a great unit in only a few years.

 

[goofyelk]

Habitat and weather-----these two are at the top.

 

[tx_packmule]

Nutrition

 

[elkassassin]

There are 30 + Reasons why Mule Deer are not doing Well in TARDville/The West!

Although goofy mentioned 2 of them!

Them 2 Ain't at the Top!

PISS POOR Management!

Deer = $$$!

GREED!

Too GAWD-DAMNED many Tags Issued in many Places!

Big Money/POACHERS Taking nearly every Big Buck that's left or alive every Year!

Way More Traffic now than there's ever been Smackin them every day of the year!

You ever wonder what kinda Meat you're Eatin when you bite in to your Taco/Burrito?

Coyotes even though there has been a bunch of them Thinned out!

Deer Herds that don't have any decent sized Bucks left come Rut time/or JUNK Genetics doing the Breeding/Interbreeding/PISSCUTTERS Breeding their Mother!

I didn't list them in any Particular order & there are many more Reasons than what I listed!













[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY

 

[upsidethehead]

Only via pm/private phone call. If you desire the latter send me the former... If you want a good grade you should take me up on this.

 

[Omahage]

I'm not sure how to pm. Seems like you have the secret huh?

 

[foghorn]

Omahage
To pm click on the envelope icon on the header of the message you want to pm to.
In my area (north west nm) the issues I see are overly mature habitat.
Competition from elk.
Predators.
Weather.
Poachers.
The political will to do what's right.
The list is long and varies by location.
Good luck.
Later
Foghorn

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-15 AT 08:59PM (MST)[p]

If you are talking about big swings in population from year to year, then weather is the culprit. But weather has been here since the beginning of time and that is not the real reason for the overall "decline" of mule deer numbers.

#1 Habitat/nutrition

#2 Predators: in the past predators were all but eliminated, but they have made recoveries and the political will to keep their numbers down has waned, which is never good for mule deer numbers.

Most people call a herd "ruined" if there are not mature bucks running around, not necessarily low deer numbers. So, while there may indeed be lower numbers due to overhunting in some areas, that will be the exception rather than the rule.

I am talking about all of mule deer numbers in North America, not just one state. As stated above and is very true: "The list is long and varies by location." But other than the occasional bad winter, the biggest reasons for the decline of mule deer is #1 and 2 above.


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Castnshoot]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-15 AT 10:55PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-15 AT 10:54?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-15 AT 10:44?PM (MST)

There have been 19 deer hit on a 7 mile stretch of HYW 21 between Minersville and Adamsville in the last 2 weeks.

Watching the birds from the porch and having walked over to confirm
a couple of times, there looks to be a momma lion and 2 of last years cubs that have been killing a deer every week or so about 2 or three miles from where these 19 deer have been hit.

These lions have been working this winter herd sence they moved in around Thanksgiving.

Not alot of bucks around to sevice this herd, and those few very tired bucks are still at it as of Feb. 22.

I found a day old fawn fifty yards from the front porch in July last year and I'm seeing alot more late fawns as well.

Plenty of feed and habitat in this area.

There was a noticeable increase in this herd after a few years of
cutting the rifle hunt down to 5 days in this unit. But after a few more years back at 9 days it seems those gains have been lost.

Just a few of my observations.

If you want alittle time dated photo documentation of some of this stuff for your paper let me know.

 

[elkassassin]

I Agree with castnshoot!

These Late Born Fawns are as Good as Coyote Bait!

Anybody ever considered the Hunting Pressure that Runs Continuous & Overlapped from Mid-August thru January-February having an Effect on the Herds?

txhunter is Quick to Blame Predators but until we consider Ourselves the Worst Predator nothing will ever change!

There's no way to Count em up but does anybody have a Guesstimation on how many Deer are killed by Vehicles in Utah every year?

There Ain't nobody that knows that Answer!

But I'll Guarandamntee you it's Higher than you Think!








[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY

 

[Tristate]

LONGRANGE SHOOTERS and INTERNET BIOLOGISTS! }>

 

[Omahage]

Thanks for all the input, I appreciate the help! Habitat and more interaction between mule deer and humans go hand in hand while effecting the herd. As far as bucks go, what are the thoughts on creating the 3 point or better system? I'm someone who doesn't believe predators do a large amount of harm to populations but it is obvious they do some harm.

 

[ICMDEER]

Oh, to be young again...............

I've been watching mule deer VERY CLOSELY for 40+ years in many of the same places. In some places, habitat has not changed. It's irrigated ag, and if anything, there's more feed now than there was 40 years ago. Other places are brush habitat. It's aged some but is still quality habitat with good leader growth. I've been outfitting for over 25 years on some of the same ranches. And these places have not changed.

And we have about the same deer we've had on them. But compared to the 70's, we are down. It's primarily due to predators. I have a deal I call the "hierarchy of predation." There used to not be many hawks, owls or especially eagles. Now, we have tons of all of those. More coyotes except for the past few years, when the mange has slowed them down. More lions, and those buggers are sneaky and tough to locate. But extreme athletes. Anyway, ,ore pressure from predation. And we manage very conservatively. WE shoot 2 deer on one 17,000 acre place. Three on a 34,000 acre ranch. Deer numbers are OK, but not as many bucks make it to be 5-6 years old. Predation.

There are far fewer deer on public lands than there used to be. It's primarily due to mismanagement. The Wyo G&F has had doe seasons through the years, primarily due to fear of overpopulation, which has not happened in the last 30 years, but they still have had numerous doe seasons. The vast majority of informed people are against those doe seasons, but there's always someone who will buy the license and shoot the doe. BAD deal.

I live in the eastern plains and we haven't had a winter in the last 30 years that's had any adverse effect on mule deer. The drought of 2012 was tough, but the forage year of 2013/2014 more than made up for it.

Conservative management and effective predator control are the keys to healthy mule deer populations.

Don't get me wrong, habitat is important. But in many areas, the changes in habitat have been minimal. We need to continue to enhance habitat, but that's a long-term deal. As I said, many ranchers in my area have drilled wells, put in water lines, planted alfalfa and wheat and corn and have made the feed and water sources better for deer. And grazing management is better, too.

So you have to look at what has changed. That's predators and management. With unlimited resident deer licenses in most of Wyoming, the deer just get too much pressure.

Be very careful about what you learn in College. I've worked for a university for 30+ years, too. I can promise you that a LOT of university faculty know a whole lot that is just not
true. Too much time spent in labs and classrooms and not enough time visiting people who make their living off the land.

Best of luck with your project.

 

[fullthrottle]

^^^YEP^^^. I wish some of the internet biologist were calling the shots, cause the ones who are aren't exactly impressing the hell out of people.

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-15 AT 12:19PM (MST)[p]>Thanks for all the input, I
>appreciate the help! Habitat and
>more interaction between mule deer
>and humans go hand in
>hand while effecting the herd.
>As far as bucks go,
>what are the thoughts on
>creating the 3 point or
>better system? I'm someone who
>doesn't believe predators do a
>large amount of harm to
>populations but it is obvious
>they do some harm.

If you let predators reach a steady state with the deer/elk population, you can eliminate all hunting! That is what the anti-hunters are attempting to promote. So in today's mule deer populations, predation may or may not play that big of a role, but when you compare it to the huge populations of the 50-60s, the main difference there was lack of predators.

Granted, hunter numbers have exploded since then too, and overhunting can be playing a role in certain localities, but regardless of the area, there are less deer than in their "hay day"

You can also show a relationship between loss of aspen forests and the deer numbers decline too. Look at the number of acres of aspens we had in the 50-60s to today. Way less. That is a lot of habitat loss. You have to also throw in there loss of normal fires to clean out evergreen overgrowth and overgrowth of more less-than-ideal plants. So just because the habitat in one area (low country) hasn't changed that much, doesn't mean the habitat/nutrition through their entire range hasn't changed.

Elk herds in some areas are definitely in competition with deer, so they play a role in some places.

Again: "The list is long and varies by location."


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[ICMDEER]

Txhunter

You and I both hunt in Colorado. The habitat there is in pretty good shape. I hunt from above timberline to low sagebrush country. We had a 100,000+ acre fire in SE Wyoming in 2012. The aspen regeneration is amazing. And ceanothus is coming back where I've never seen it.

Biggest problem I see is encroaching PJ. It needs work, but in many places - like Nevada (where I also hunt when I draw) those fires have wreaked havoc on the habitat because they are coming back cheatgrass.

So there's no one cure-all for every situation. Prescribed burns in much of our country can still be good, but not everywhere.

Again, best of luck with your college paper.

 

[Goldberg]

As an armchair biologist myself, I would like to weigh in on this.
The area I hunt in Utah has seen probably a 90 percent reduction in hunter pressure and deer over the last 30 years. I figure the low deer numbers are what have mostly contributed to low hunter numbers, guys just moved on when they could not fill a tag. But nothing else has changed habitat wise. Fewer sheep in the summer(which also equates to fewer sheep herders that shoot predators), fewer cattle. More elk. A lot more elk. But the deer numbers are pretty static for the last 10-15 years. No real increase or decrease.
But- predators are the one variable that always stick out. And to me it's country-wide.
My thoughts are that when they banned 2-4D in the early 70's, or whatever it was that caused the thinning of raptor egg shells, Then the bird predators increased like 10-20 fold or so. Remember back in the days of rabbit cycles? Folks always called it a "7 year cycle"? "rabbit round-ups", "bunny baseball"?
It seemed like it would be more like a 3-5 year cycle to me, but you could always depend on good rabbit hunting out in the desert for a year or two, followed by a few years of hardly seeing a bunny. When is the last time you have driven down a highway in the desert and seen a ton of road killed jacks? As in- lots of rabbits out there. Or had a blast killing a couple dozen on a afternoon hunt with the boys??
I think the high raptor numbers keep the vermin down, which make the poor hungry coyote concentrate on deer fawns, which they have learned by neccessity to catch and eat, plus the elk numbers being at least 10 times higher than in the 60's/70's, which are a secondary target of the lions, which allows the lion population to maintain or increase, PLUS- all the other things everyone else has mentioned, habitat, highways, drought, and PRESTO!!. you have a recipe for low deer numbers for the rest of time.
But only my opinion. not sure i have any solution. Deer were pretty rare early on in most places, mule deer populations exploding in the 50-60's. Right after they started farming more sheep and putting out more poison after the war. And killing every predator that walked of flew. Not sure any of us want that back.

 

[Elkduds]

Here in CO, much wintering habitat has been paved, constructed, drilled, and piped. This crowds deer and elk together on less-desireable winter range, where they can share CWD and compete for limited food along roads. Predators thrive where prey species are bunched together. Dogs kill deer around residential development. Loss of crucial winter and spring range impacts game much more than forest fires, beetle kill and loss of summer range. Open and mixed cover has matured into conifer forest, including Pinon/Juniper. That and we hunt the crap out of our deer herds here. Our deer population has declined as our elk #s have grown.

 

[BeDawg]

Predators, especially lions are the biggest culprit. I see lion sign every time I am out now. Used to never see it. You will find that all the lion hunters on this site will tell you differently.

 

[ForkWest]

Omahage, if you're working on a college paper, you need data, not MM opinion. Go look at this thread.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID6/24874.html

I haven't seen a more comprehensive study that covers deer mortality. Clearly the study is evaluating the impact of translocating deer, but as a bi-product, they've numbered and classifed every single deer mortality. Any question where the bulk of the deer loss is coming from? Short answer, PREDATORS! Can't argue the data!

 

[wileywapati]

Guess it would depend on how YA look at it.
Back in the glory days of 250,000 utah deer
Hunters and plenty of deer, the permit theory
Kinda goes out the window. Of course we had some
Help via 1080 DDT and so on.

Habitat degradation, herd competition reduces fecundity
(Which warrants its own paper all together and IMHO, is
The subject I'd go with if I wanted an A on this subject ) is
Well understood but absolutely ignored. State after state bears this out.
Nevada has published data on the subject and historical data from
Other states back this up.

So many want to beat the hell out of the dead horse of what is
Killing our deer instead of focusing on why deer aren't being replaced
The way they once were.






"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012

 

[tx_packmule]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-15 AT 05:39PM (MST)[p]>So many want to beat the
>hell out of the dead
>horse of what is
>Killing our deer instead of focusing
>on why deer aren't being
>replaced
>The way they once were.

Inadequate nutrition, may look the same, but nutrients leached from the soil over time significantly lessens the browse quality.

 

[wileywapati]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-15 AT 05:13PM (MST)[p]Absolutely 100% Correct TX. Not only depleted
soil but also soil that is full of all kinds of nasty chit.

This is a baby step type of process

Hell we have hunters and a Wildlife Board in this
state that are 100% convinced that bucks give birth, trying
to convince them that not only are deer mineral depleted
some are close to basically being poisoned will have freaking heads
exploding.






"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012

 

[Omahage]

Thanks for all the discussion guys. I did this in more of a survey manner to see the opinions of actual hunters in the field opposed to biologists and or others. I'll put some of your different opinions in my paper.

 

[ILbowhunter17]

to many people and Habitat change

 

[Matapatos]

I just did a quick search to see how many hunters we have afield today vs years ago... I came up with this
1961: 132,000 deer were estimated to have been harvested with better than 200,000 afield
1985: 82,552 deer harvested
1970's: Over 50,000 duck hunters in the marsh, around 17,000 today.
I dislike the SL Tribune as much as most, but these things are ringing true to me. I have heard it from State Biologists as well...

If all this is correct, then we have a huge problem! Where is the funding going to come from if licenses aren't being sold? I understand the competition thing, as I don't want to see people in the canyon I'm hunting, but we won't be hunting if the hunters aren't being replaced. Sorry that was a tangent.

I am of the opinion that when Utah was settled it was clear cut, overgrazed and planted but still had plenty of sage brush. Now houses are covering lots of winter ground sage brush and we have gone to a more 'natural' way of management. That is, to let everything return to as natural as possible. I believe the deer numbers exploded due to settlement and are returning back to historical numbers due to 'natural' management. I can't say that is cut and dry, as I don't know if that holds true across the West, but I do believe that is true for most of Utah. Armchair biologist here, weighing in!