Wasatch thoughts

elkassassin said:
So Hossy?

You're Saying The Manti Is Over-Tagged?

Wait Till Nilly & His Make Believe Management Gets That Unit DOUBLE TAGGED!

Your Thoughts Hossy?
Click to expand...

The Manti, like the Nebo and Wasatch got over tagged because we decided 400" bulls should be the norm.

So to do that, the big 5 had to keep a tight lid, so the Manti, Wasatch, Nebo has their age class cut to allow the someone to hunt elk inside 30 years.

Sacrificing for the guides and trophy hunters who had their lobbyists in place was the deal.

But, I'm a hunter. By definition I need a tag to be that so I'll take the "lesser" tag, and hunt it, everytime
 
OK Hossy!

Would Your Unit Handle DOUBLING The Number Of Tags That's Offered There Now?

hossblur said:
The Manti, like the Nebo and Wasatch got over tagged because we decided 400" bulls should be the norm.

So to do that, the big 5 had to keep a tight lid, so the Manti, Wasatch, Nebo has their age class cut to allow the someone to hunt elk inside 30 years.

Sacrificing for the guides and trophy hunters who had their lobbyists in place was the deal.

But, I'm a hunter. By definition I need a tag to be that so I'll take the "lesser" tag, and hunt it, everytime
Click to expand...
 
The DWR Is Recommending A Cut Of 125 LE ELK Tags!

They Are The Pro's According To What Nilly Has Always Claimed!

From What I've Seen Over The Years,When The DWR Has Made Recommendations For Tag Cuts It's Always Been Past Time!

That CUT TAGS really Bothers The OPPORTUNISTS!

You Surely Seen My Prediction Of What I Think Will Happen,Right?

If Enough People BAWL.......................................!

Can You Post Us Some Up To Date Info That Isn't Old News?

It Is Now 2024 & Your 2021 Info Does Nothing For Current Info We Need!










middlefork said:
You are the only one talking about double. Or even increasing on this discussion.
Any chance you can calm down enough to post a well thought out rebuttal to Berry Blasters thoughts? I'll even give you the elk plan.

Click to expand...
 
Like I said calm down. I know what your "predictions" are.

From the link I posted:
"B. Dates Covered The elk plan was approved by the Wildlife Board on December 1, 2022 and will be in effect for10 years until December 2032. Two mid-plan reviews spaced 3-4 years apart will be scheduled with the Wildlife Board in the spring of 2026."
Is that not current?
 
I'm Seriously Thinking About Making A Recommendation To Open The Wasatch Up To Un-Limited Hunting!

I Know There's Enough Opportunists Just Here On The Forum I Could Get Alot Of Signatures Here & Everywhere Else!

Nilly Would Be Happy & A Whole Bunch Of Other GREAT WHITE Hunters Would Be On Cloud 9!

UN-LIMITED TAGS & ANYTHING GOES!

This Will Make Most GREAT WHITE Hunters Happy For A Year Or So!

When They Shoot It Clear Out & The BAWLING Starts I Don't GAF!
 
Your Most Current Info Goes To 2021!

Did We Not Have A Fairly Hard Winter in The Winter of 22-23?

Is The DWR Making recommendations On 2021 Data?

I Highly Doubt It!







middlefork said:
Like I said calm down. I know what your "predictions" are.

From the link I posted:
"B. Dates Covered The elk plan was approved by the Wildlife Board on December 1, 2022 and will be in effect for10 years until December 2032. Two mid-plan reviews spaced 3-4 years apart will be scheduled with the Wildlife Board in the spring of 2026."
Is that not current?
Click to expand...
 
I Don't Need to See The Elk Plan!

I Mentioned 5-6 Year Old Age Class & BEAVIS Was Quick To Inform Me I Was Wrong & The Real Numbers Are 5.5-6 Year Old Age Class!

Show Us 2023's Age Class Of Bulls That Were Harvested!

Show Us Numbers Of Elk On The Wasatch In 2023!

Show Us TOTAL Number Of Permits Issued On The Wasatch!

And When I Say Total I'm Talkin Cows,Calves,MOTL Bulls,Medium Bulls & Big Bulls!
 
I will admit the unit specific plans haven't been updated to the new plan.
I just fail to see why it's your way or the highway. Do you not understand that other people can disagree with your opinions and can give a clear reason why they do?
I don't even mind those that agree with you.

What I do mind is 36,703 posts that appear to be what ever thought is running through your mind at the time. It gets old.
 
Did You Find Us Some Current Numbers?

BEAVIS Is Quick To Tell Us The Unit Is 2,000 Over The Objective!

But That's All He Gave Us!

That Could Be Strictly Cows & Calves & PISSCUTTER Bulls?

That's Why I'm Asking For Some Up To Date Numbers?



middlefork said:
I will admit the unit specific plans haven't been updated to the new plan.
I just fail to see why it's your way or the highway. Do you not understand that other people can disagree with your opinions and can give a clear reason why they do?
I don't even mind those that agree with you.

What I do mind is 36,703 posts that appear to be what ever thought is running through your mind at the time. It gets old.
Click to expand...
 
middlefork said:
You are the only one talking about double. Or even increasing on this discussion.
Any chance you can calm down enough to post a well thought out rebuttal to Berry Blasters thoughts? I'll even give you the elk plan.

Click to expand...
You need to throw logic out the window in these discussions. Once the "woke" get triggered they start yelling or typing in capital letters to really show how much they care. It's a losing battle, we are all unintelligent. Just my observations. Carry on
 
More LACK Of Common Sense Right Here & Again!

elkhunter81 said:
You need to throw logic out the window in these discussions. Once the "woke" get triggered they start yelling or typing in capital letters to really show how much they care. It's a losing battle, we are all unintelligent. Just my observations. Carry on
Click to expand...
 
Colorado has heathy elk herds in a lot of otc units but I haven't been waiting for 21 years to hunt them…..

The total population of bull will not sort it self out for age class which has been suggested early in this thread.
 
And What Has Colorado Done To Their Deer Herd?

WesternSky said:
Colorado has heathy elk herds in a lot of otc units but I haven't been waiting for 21 years to hunt them…..

The total population of bull will not sort it self out for age class which has been suggested early in this thread.
Click to expand...
 
Search your little heart out. When you find what you are looking for post the link so us peons can see what you are talking about.

Big game

Information about hunting big game species, including antlerless, in Utah.
wildlife.utah.gov wildlife.utah.gov
 
Post season 2023 pop estimate 10,800

3 year age trend 21-23: 5.9, 5.7, 5.0. Average 5.53333333

951 LE permits, 9 cons tags, around 100 CWMU permits within unit boundaries.

If you’d like more, let me know I’m happy to go googling for those who struggle
 
I Think We Need to Have JakeH Or BEAVIS Help Us With The Info We're Looking For?

You Around JakeH?

We Are Looking For:

Wasatch Mountains 2023 LE Elk INFO:

Age Of LE BULL ELK Harvested?

Total Number Of All LE ELK Wasatch Tags Including EXPO TAGS,CONSERVATION TAGS,BANQUET TAGS & ALL OTHER TAGS HANDED OUT?

How Many Spike Tags Were Issued?

How Many Cow Tags Were Issued?

How Many Total Days Were Elk Hunted On The Unit?

How Many Estimated Total Elk Are There On The Unit?

What's The Current Total Number Of Elk On The Unit?

The Only Number We Have Is BEAVIS'S 2,000 Over Objectives Which Don't Mean SQUAT When We're Talking Bull Management & Bull Numbers & Age!

(((Not Being Rude BEAVIS & Others,It's The Only Number We Have On This Thread Other Than The Proposed 125 LE BULL TAG Cuts!)))

JakeH,BEAVIS,Anybody-Else,efa?

Anybody?







middlefork said:
Search your little heart out. When you find what you are looking for post the link so us peons can see what you are talking about.

Big game

Information about hunting big game species, including antlerless, in Utah.
wildlife.utah.gov wildlife.utah.gov
Click to expand...
 
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Keep Em Coming BEAVIS!

You've Got A Start!

Cam@strawberry said:
Post season 2023 pop estimate 10,800

3 year age trend 21-23: 5.9, 5.7, 5.0. Average 5.53333333

951 LE permits, 9 cons tags, around 100 CWMU permits within unit boundaries.

If you’d like more, let me know I’m happy to go googling for those who struggle
Click to expand...
 
So in 2023 We're Down To a 5 Year Old Average Age Class!

Have You Got Like An Age class Number For It Broke Up In Like thirds?

Such As:

Age Of The Lower Third?

Age Of The Middle Third?

Age Of The Top Third?
 
W'ell Leave The CWMU Out Of It For Now!

About 960 LE Tags According To BEAVIS!

I'd Bet Harvest Success (Averaged Success For All The LE Hunts) Was Around 48%-50% Range?

So Around 480 Bulls Hit The Ground?

We Are Down to a 5 Year Age Class Of LE Bulls Being Harvested In 2023!

Can The Wasatch LE Bull Herd Take The Same Hit It Did In 2023 In 2024 & Stay Above The 5.5 Age Objective?
 
2023 success and hunter satisfaction:
Archery 230 hunters afield 12 days 25% harvest 3.2 satisfaction.
Early rifle 99 afield 61% 3.4 days 3.3 satisfaction
Mid 273 51% 7 days 3.1
Muzz 143 48% 6.4 days 3.3
Late 157 5.5 days 57% 3.1

2022 for reference
Archery: 24.9% 3.2
ER: 67% 3.8
LR: 78% 3.9
Muzz: 58% 3.6
Mid: 56% 3.5

2021:
Archery 24.9% 3.3
Er: 70% 4.0
Lr: 65% 3.8
Muzz: 49% 3.4
Mid: 52% 3.4
 
elkassassin said:
I Think We Need to Have JakeH Or BEAVIS Help Us With The Info We're Looking For?

You Around JakeH?

We Are Looking For:

Wasatch Mountains 2023 LE Elk INFO:

Age Of LE BULL ELK Harvested?

Total Number Of All LE ELK Wasatch Tags Including EXPO TAGS,CONSERVATION TAGS,BANQUET TAGS & ALL OTHER TAGS HANDED OUT?

How Many Spike Tags Were Issued?

How Many Cow Tags Were Issued?

How Many Total Days Were Elk Hunted On The Unit?

How Many Estimated Total Elk Are There On The Unit?

What's The Current Total Number Of Elk On The Unit?

The Only Number We Have Is BEAVIS'S 2,000 Over Objectives Which Don't Mean SQUAT When We're Talking Bull Management & Bull Numbers & Age!

(((Not Being Rude BEAVIS & Others,It's The Only Number We Have On This Thread Other Than The Proposed 125 LE BULL TAG Cuts!)))

JakeH,BEAVIS,Anybody-Else,efa?

Anybody?
Click to expand...
I have no reason to question the numbers @Cam@strawberry have posted.

i don't know the Wasatch, so i cant say one way or the other on how its managed other than what I read and gather from other hunters and dwr reports.

I will say this, what @Cam@strawberry is saying about the larger numbers of up and coming bulls coming of Age the next few years makes sense to me. And how the current down trend has been exasperated due to lower calf recruitment caused by the cow slaughters of the early 2010's is what is causing the downturn in harvested Age, that and the fact that overall size of most bulls was suppressed last year due to the bad winter likelyled to more youngerbulls beingkilled that wouldn'thave been otherwise, I can see how the tag cut is maybe jumping the gun a bit.

Especially since we are still inside the 3 year threshold of 5.5 , the fact it is trending down I can see either side of this argument.

If I didn't have the info that @Cam@strawberry has given I wouldn't have any issues with the tag cuts coming even though we are still in the threshold of the 3 year average. I would be all for getting a little ahead of the trend. But given the information he has provided I would say it wouldn't hurt to give it one more year to see how it plays out, if the trend continues to decline after this year, then I would be all for cutting some tags.
 
Cam@strawberry said:
Post season 2023 pop estimate 10,800

3 year age trend 21-23: 5.9, 5.7, 5.0. Average 5.53333333

951 LE permits, 9 cons tags, around 100 CWMU permits within unit boundaries.

If you’d like more, let me know I’m happy to go googling for those who struggle
Click to expand...
I’m not going to waste time on this thread beyond a sincere statement and reply to this particular post.

I dispute the 2023 population estimate.

Cam I know you spend a crap ton of time up on the unit. It’s your business and you’re probably the top outfitter up there. (I’m not calling you out)

Can you honestly tell me there are more elk up there right now then there was is the 2007 era?

My brother and I and a few buddies have spent a considerable amount of time up there running cameras and hunting since before it went spike only. We have watched the boom and bust of this herd and hunted most of the unit. We have killed and helped kill a pile of LE bulls.

I completely agree with your thoughts that last years winter and the great kill off of cows with control tags has led us to where we are today.

My argument lies in the overall numbers. The 2007 numbers had a population objective of 5050 elk (if I remember correctly). The DWR claim there were 6750 elk on the unit (including sub units) that winter.

IMO, There is no way there are more elk now then there was back then (I can’t speak to private land/CWMU lands) By the numbers the DWR is claiming there are 4050 more elk on the unit then in the hay-day of the mid 2000’s.

There is no doubt a lot of elk on the unit. But 4000 more than before? I sincerely believe that is not even close to correct.

Thoughts?
 
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Hey BEAVIS?

Correct Me If I'm Wrong!

Nilly Will Probably Beat You To It For Another Feather!

Is There Not:

A LATE ARCHERY HUNT On The Unit?

How Bout A Multi-Season Hunt On The Unit?

I Know The Late Archery Won't Add Much Damage But What About The Multi Season?



Cam@strawberry said:
2023 success and hunter satisfaction:
Archery 230 hunters afield 12 days 25% harvest 3.2 satisfaction.
Early rifle 99 afield 61% 3.4 days 3.3 satisfaction
Mid 273 51% 7 days 3.1
Muzz 143 48% 6.4 days 3.3
Late 157 5.5 days 57% 3.1

2022 for reference
Archery: 24.9% 3.2
ER: 67% 3.8
LR: 78% 3.9
Muzz: 58% 3.6
Mid: 56% 3.5

2021:
Archery 24.9% 3.3
Er: 70% 4.0
Lr: 65% 3.8
Muzz: 49% 3.4
Mid: 52% 3.4
Click to expand...
 
There's So Many Hunts On The Wasatch It's Beyond Belief!

There AnyWay We Could Recommend A HAMS Hunt In There Somewhere?

Doesn't look Like I Was Too Far Off On Success Rates Percentage wise?

If Nilly Could Prove Me Wrong By .0000000000000000001 Of A Percent He'd Stab Another Feather!
 
It's 20 Degrees!

There's Fish To Catch!

Shouldn't Take This Ole Wore Out Body Long Too Start Shivering!

I'll Be Back For MM Sunday Day Services!
 
Silentstalker said:
I’m not going to waste time on this thread beyond a sincere statement and reply to this particular post.

I dispute the 2023 population estimate.

Cam I know you spend a crap ton of time up on the unit. It’s your business and you’re probably the top outfitter up there. (I’m not calling you out)

Can you honestly tell me there are more elk up there right now then there was is the 2007 era?

My brother and I and a few buddies have spent a considerable amount of time up there running cameras and hunting since before it went spike only. We have watched the boom and bust of this herd and hunted most of the unit. We have killed and helped kill a pile of LE bulls.

I completely agree with your thoughts that last years winter and the great kill off of cows with control tags has led us to where we are today.

My argument lies in the overall numbers. The 2007 numbers had a population objective of 5050 elk (if I remember correctly). The DWR claim there were 6750 elk on the unit (including sub units) that winter.

IMO, There is no way there are more elk now then there was back then (I can’t speak to private land/CWMU lands) By the numbers the DWR is claiming there are 4050 more elk on the unit then in the hay-day of the mid 2000’s.

There is no doubt a lot of elk on the unit. But 4000 more than before? I sincerely believe that is not even close to correct.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
When we got finally fed up enough with the control permit debacle in 2017 I think, we said exactly the same thing in much much not nicer language.

I told the biologist he was a liar and lazy on the front porch of the store one day 😎 not my finest moment. He got heated and told us to get in the chopper with them. We did. The counts were accurate. Took us about 30 minutes to identify the overarching issue of private land and inaccessible elk, but the numbers were correct.

Yes I believe the estimates are pretty close. In November I was aware of 4 herds that would be 4-500 strong. Just absurd numbers of elk. Hunting through last season it wasn’t uncommon for me to run across 1-200 head of elk a day, I was blown away by the amount of elk I was seeing and have been for a couple years now.

Bess, they fly every 3 years. That gets jumbled a bit sometimes, but the short of it is yes they fly frequently.
 
Wow, that's a lot of unhinged ranting for one thread.

It's shocking(though I know who is doing it) to read a guy talk about averages and include 2023 as though it was not the outlier not an average.

I would be curious, what is the formula the DWR uses? How do they come up with 125?

Also. How do you just not address the CWMU? Do those bulls never leave the fence one way or another?

Edit:Berry posted as I was typing
 
Ok Cam, so if you and the DWR are correct then the elk are still heavily using private property. I realize there may be select spots where a big herd might seclude but the hunting on public land is nowhere near what it was back then.

Places we would see a herd with hundreds of elk in season now have but 15-20. Remote waterholes that used to see herds of twenty plus elk daily now see only a handful - a visit or two per week. Vast glassable country produce fractions of the herds we used to see. This experience is in each quadrant of the unit.

You may be seeing pockets of large herds but for a population of 10,800 you would need 21.6 herds of 500 animals. If there is in fact that many than there was way more than 6700 elk in 2007.

In the winter months you used to see huge herds driving up and down Hwy 6. There also used to be a massive herd that wintered at the mouth of Daniels on the east side. You would see literally hundreds of elk above you as you drove into town. I don’t see herds like that anymore. If there is twice the number of elk now, where are they?

I do know one CWMU that has seen a huge cut in elk numbers on the property over the last 10 years. I watched a couple big herds (20+) on a couple other CWMU last year, but not hundreds.

I know I haven’t seen 200 elk in one day on the Wasatch in years. Is anyone else seeing 100 elk a day regularly?

Do we know when the last flight was conducted?
 
hossblur said:
Wow, that's a lot of unhinged ranting for one thread.

It's shocking(though I know who is doing it) to read a guy talk about averages and include 2023 as though it was not the outlier not an average.

I would be curious, what is the formula the DWR uses? How do they come up with 125?

Also. How do you just not address the CWMU? Do those bulls never leave the fence one way or another?

Edit:Berry posted as I was typing
Click to expand...
Here’s how we address the CWMU program. We make them up their allocations 10x to the public and they can sell less tags then draw hunters. This is a government program funded by you and I it wasn’t implemented to make these properties operate at high profit. It was designed to pay for an offset of damage and create opportunities. It’s created opportunity for the wealthy and hosed the public hunter on a lot of them. If they can sell less tags there is limited supply so they can get more with less. They can accept it or not. If Wade Heaton, R&K, ect. doesn’t like it they can withdraw from the program who gives flying f##k. The CWMU is a crooked ran program when it comes to tag allocation and it’s all due to greed from auction wildlife to the highest bidder.
 
Silentstalker said:
Ok Cam, so if you and the DWR are correct then the elk are still heavily using private property. I realize there may be select spots where a big herd might seclude but the hunting on public land is nowhere near what it was back then.

Places we would see a herd with hundreds of elk in season now have but 15-20. Remote waterholes that used to see herds of twenty plus elk daily now see only a handful - a visit or two per week. Vast glassable country produce fractions of the herds we used to see. This experience is in each quadrant of the unit.

You may be seeing pockets of large herds but for a population of 10,800 you would need 21.6 herds of 500 animals. If there is in fact that many than there was way more than 6700 elk in 2007.

In the winter months you used to see huge herds driving up and down Hwy 6. There also used to be a massive herd that wintered at the mouth of Daniels on the east side. You would see literally hundreds of elk above you as you drove into town. I don’t see herds like that anymore. If there is twice the number of elk now, where are they?

I do know one CWMU that has seen a huge cut in elk numbers on the property over the last 10 years. I watched a couple big herds (20+) on a couple other CWMU last year, but not hundreds.

I know I haven’t seen 200 elk in one day on the Wasatch in years. Is anyone else seeing 100 elk a day regularly?

Do we know when the last flight was conducted?
Click to expand...
I did get into a big herd on the wasatch on the opener of the archery probably around 150 elk it was a heck of a fun day. And I blew a 60 yard layup on a cow. Then they come up the side at 30 yds and I couldn’t get them to stop.
 
Silentstalker said:
Ok Cam, so if you and the DWR are correct then the elk are still heavily using private property. I realize there may be select spots where a big herd might seclude but the hunting on public land is nowhere near what it was back then.

Places we would see a herd with hundreds of elk in season now have but 15-20. Remote waterholes that used to see herds of twenty plus elk daily now see only a handful - a visit or two per week. Vast glassable country produce fractions of the herds we used to see. This experience is in each quadrant of the unit.

You may be seeing pockets of large herds but for a population of 10,800 you would need 21.6 herds of 500 animals. If there is in fact that many than there was way more than 6700 elk in 2007.

In the winter months you used to see huge herds driving up and down Hwy 6. There also used to be a massive herd that wintered at the mouth of Daniels on the east side. You would see literally hundreds of elk above you as you drove into town. I don’t see herds like that anymore. If there is twice the number of elk now, where are they?

I do know one CWMU that has seen a huge cut in elk numbers on the property over the last 10 years. I watched a couple big herds (20+) on a couple other CWMU last year, but not hundreds.

I know I haven’t seen 200 elk in one day on the Wasatch in years. Is anyone else seeing 100 elk a day regularly?

Do we know when the last flight was conducted?
Click to expand...
SS, here’s where I, or my guys, saw the biggest concentrations of elk this year and when. I’m not discounting your experience, I heard a lot of guys say the same over the season last year, this is just mine and people around me.

120~ head face of two Tom August.
200~2nd/3rd water November
150~ Chipman/Tie fork September
300~ head of willow creek November
500~ beaver/slab November
500~ tabby WMA November
300~ red creek mtn ridge June
200~ point of pines/bull springs June
150~ square top/cow hollow June

These are just off the top of my head, I could add 3-400 in scattered herds up and down the currant creek drainage, but those were all in smaller bunches across broader sections of time.

Point being, I feel somewhat confident I came across 25% of the population estimate last year running around about 25% of the elk habitat on the unit.

P.S. our collar data as of about 2 years ago suggested 50/50 split on public and private elk. I don’t think that’s shifted much.
 
I hunt the Wasatch every year during Archery season for Elk as I am exclusively an archer. I have hunted it for over 30 years now and I personally have not noticed a big difference in the amount of Elk I see now compared to 10-15 years ago. I have my go-to spot and seldom hunt anywhere else because I find the Elk.Last year was definitely a different hunt though as I experienced Elk being in different places on the Unit than in years past as many others have mentioned but this year with having a more "typical " winter I expect the Unit to behave more in line with the "norm". I love the Wasatch, my son and I have done very well on the Unit through the years. It definitely gets hunted hard but yet it still produces especially for those that actually get off their keyboard and hunt.
 
Thes
BearBait49 said:
I hunt the Wasatch every year during Archery season for Elk as I am exclusively an archer. I have hunted it for over 30 years now and I personally have not noticed a big difference in the amount of Elk I see now compared to 10-15 years ago. I have my go-to spot and seldom hunt anywhere else because I find the Elk.Last year was definitely a different hunt though as I experienced Elk being in different places on the Unit than in years past as many others have mentioned but this year with having a more "typical " winter I expect the Unit to behave more in line with the "norm". I love the Wasatch, my son and I have done very well on the Unit through the years. It definitely gets hunted hard but yet it still produces especially for those that actually get off their keyboard and hunt.
Click to expand...


Exactly.
 
I think a lot of elk have found easy pickings on private/CWMU properties over the years and even with the private land tags, there’s still not enough pressure to change their minds.
Those 12, 15 and even 20 year old lead cows have seen it all and when they change patterns, those herds follow.
For example, FL had an absolute slaughter of elk in November of 2009. Big storms moved enormous herds onto wintering type areas a few weeks before the November cow (3000 tags, if memory serves) hunt opened. We’re talking thousands of elk. Tags galore! Hunters galore! Elk cornered! Dead cows, wounded cows, dead spikes, wounded bulls…it was a sh!t show of epic proportions. Those elk had that scene burned into their brains and it took years for them to return to that area in any significant number. They still avoid it until they absolutely have to go there. Lumpy, Big John and other locals surely know where I’m talking.
Point is, when elk migrate to new areas for whatever reason (namely pressure) those old cows aren’t stupid. They move their herd and it would be impossible for us, as hunters to get any sort of accurate estimate of how many elk are on a unit, because we don’t have time, resources or access to the entire unit.
Now, does the DWR have all the tools needed for a %100 accurate count? Hell no but I’d wager they have a better handle on it than we do.
 
Cam@strawberry said:
SS, here’s where I, or my guys, saw the biggest concentrations of elk this year and when. I’m not discounting your experience, I heard a lot of guys say the same over the season last year, this is just mine and people around me.

120~ head face of two Tom August.
200~2nd/3rd water November
150~ Chipman/Tie fork September
300~ head of willow creek November
500~ beaver/slab November
500~ tabby WMA November
300~ red creek mtn ridge June
200~ point of pines/bull springs June
150~ square top/cow hollow June

These are just off the top of my head, I could add 3-400 in scattered herds up and down the currant creek drainage, but those were all in smaller bunches across broader sections of time.

Point being, I feel somewhat confident I came across 25% of the population estimate last year running around about 25% of the elk habitat on the unit.

P.S. our collar data as of about 2 years ago suggested 50/50 split on public and private elk. I don’t think that’s shifted much.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. I am also not questioning your experience. Just stating what a lot of us are seeing and we are not key board warriors. We hunt and kill a lot of elk on the unit every year.

My hope is it rebounds this year and we get back to shooting 320+ potential type bulls and we don’t see a repeat of last years harvest of 5 points and tiny 6 points across the board.
 
I’m very confident we will not see a repeat of last year’s antler growth (or lack thereof) on the Wasatch and Manti units this year.

Who knows until we get to August? But I’m confident last year was caused by factors that are not in play this year and therefore will not repeat again this year.
 
So BEAVIS!

Them Elk Are Gonna Go Where They Think/Know There Is Less Pressure!

(((Yes,I Realize They Get The Sshhitt Shot Out Of Them On Private As Well!!)))

And To The CWMU's They Run Alot Of The Time!

If You Were Getting Hunted Yourself On The Wasatch Would You Be Dinking Around On Public Ground?

You May Of Missed It?

Last Night I Asked If There Was A Late Archery Hunt & A Multi-Season On The Wasatch?






Cam@strawberry said:
When we got finally fed up enough with the control permit debacle in 2017 I think, we said exactly the same thing in much much not nicer language.

I told the biologist he was a liar and lazy on the front porch of the store one day 😎 not my finest moment. He got heated and told us to get in the chopper with them. We did. The counts were accurate. Took us about 30 minutes to identify the overarching issue of private land and inaccessible elk, but the numbers were correct.

Yes I believe the estimates are pretty close. In November I was aware of 4 herds that would be 4-500 strong. Just absurd numbers of elk. Hunting through last season it wasn’t uncommon for me to run across 1-200 head of elk a day, I was blown away by the amount of elk I was seeing and have been for a couple years now.

Bess, they fly every 3 years. That gets jumbled a bit sometimes, but the short of it is yes they fly frequently.
Click to expand...
 
2023 may have killed off a bunch of lead cows.

Maybe, if the elk are residing solely on CWMU it's time to address tag numbers and/or hunting dates.

I do know reacting off one year, isn't sound science
 
Hey Hossy!

This Has Been Happening For A Few Years Now!

Ya!

The Winter Of 22-23 Didn't Help!

3 year age trend 21-23: 5.9, 5.7, 5.0.

Rules Are Rules & When Something Needs Done It's Time!

They Had To Average The Age Class To Keep It Above 5.5!



hossblur said:
2023 may have killed off a bunch of lead cows.

Maybe, if the elk are residing solely on CWMU it's time to address tag numbers and/or hunting dates.

I do know reacting off one year, isn't sound science
Click to expand...
 
Elkass said in post 151
"They Had To Average The Age Class To Keep It Above 5.5!"

They average just for years like 2023. The very purpose of averaging.
 
elkassassin said:
One More Question For BEAVIS:

When Was The Last Counts Done With The Chopper?
Click to expand...
No idea, I imagine they probably fly one of the 3 sub units every year. That’s how they tackled it when I was paying more attention.

Not gonna find the late archery data only one year anyways so it’s not worth much.

Multi season remains a 70% and 3.something satisfaction.
 
Hey BEAVIS?

The reason I Was Asking Is I'm Perty Sure There Wasn't That Many Late Archery Tags?

But How Many Multi-Season Tags Were There?

Are These Hunts Not Included In The Objectives/Age Class?
 
Last edited:
Hey Hossy!

The DWR Doing The Right Thing Here & You Won't Support It?

I Fought Against The Age Objective BS Management Before It Went In To Effect!

The Wasatch Will Produce Bulls Of All Calibers When Managed Right!

It Can Also Be Over Hunted & The Age Objective Can Be Knocked Down!

When The Age Objective Management Was Set Up There Were Hunters Concerned With:

What Are We Gonna Do If The Unit/Units Get Below Age Objectives?

That's Where The 5.5 Average Of Being The Lowest Average We Can Take It Down To Before We Have To Do Something To Get That Average Back Above The Low Number!

Is It Really That Hard To See?

Can We Not Follow The DWR's Rules & Regulations?

I Don't Agree At All With Managing LE Units For Age Objectives!

But That's What Most People Wanted & Here The Hell We Are!

I Can GUARAN-DAMN-TEE You If The DWR Is Making The Recommendation You Best Pay Close Attention,They Don't Cut Tags Just Because They Want To!

Does Anybody Look In To The Future For Kids,Grand-Kids,It Surely Doesn't Look Like To Many Do?

The Wasatch Is A BIG Unit!

I Don't Know Of A Unit Anywhere That Gets Pounded As Hard As It Does!

I Made A Prediction In An Earlier Post Up Above Hossy Of What I Think Will Happen,Did You See It?

The DWR Has Made The Right Recommendation,But The Opportunists Can't Handle It & They're Are BAWLING Like Babies!

I Expect The BAWLING Will Over-Rule Just Like It Always Does & Everybody Can Keep POUNDIN The Wasatch!

I Hope They Can Add A Few More Hunts,I Don't See A HAMS Hunt On The Wasatch Yet?

That Or Just Open It Up UN-LIMITED!

That way When It's POUNDED Out,The People BAWLING Can BAWL Some More!

hossblur said:
Question for the long timers in here

Anyone seen a single post about a single unit off any species that Bess has supported not cutting tags on?
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
Hey Hossy!

The DWR Doing The Right Thing Here & You Won't Support It?

I Fought Against The Age Objective BS Management Before It Went In To Effect!

The Wasatch Will Produce Bulls Of All Calibers When Managed Right!

It Can Also Be Over Hunted & The Age Objective Can Be Knocked Down!

When The Age Objective Management Was Set Up There Were Hunters Concerned With:

What Are We Gonna Do If The Unit/Units Get Below Age Objectives?

That's Where The 5.5 Average Of Being The Lowest Average We Can Take It Down To Before We Have To Do Something To Get That Average Back Above The Low Number!

Is It Really That Hard To See?

Can We Not Follow The DWR's Rules & Regulations?

I Don't Agree At All With Managing LE Units For Age Objectives!

But That's What Most People Wanted & Here The Hell We Are!

I Can GUARAN-DAMN-TEE You If The DWR Is Making The Recommendation You Best Pay Close Attention,They Don't Cut Tags Just Because They Want To!

Does Anybody Look In To The Future For Kids,Grand-Kids,It Surely Doesn't Look Like To Many Do?

The Wasatch Is A BIG Unit!

I Don't Know Of A Unit Anywhere That Gets Pounded As Hard As It Does!

I Made A Prediction In An Earlier Post Up Above Hossy Of What I Think Will Happen,Did You See It?

The DWR Has Made The Right Recommendation,But The Opportunists Can't Handle It & They're Are BAWLING Like Babies!

I Expect The BAWLING Will Over-Rule Just Like It Always Does & Everybody Can Keep POUNDIN The Wasatch!

I Hope They Can Add A Few More Hunts,I Don't See A HAMS Hunt On The Wasatch Yet?

That Or Just Open It Up UN-LIMITED!

That way When It's POUNDED Out,The People BAWLING Can BAWL Some More!
Click to expand...


So we just cut tags out of the area that isn't holding bulls, but maintain the CWMUs that do.

Here's a wild idea.

Keep the tags where they are and INCREASE the public tags on the CWMUs(the owner can decide to cut his paid tags to compensate or not).

The added pressure will push elk back into the unit.

I know it's a novel approach actually using CWMU to MANAGE animals and not manage IG posts bottom lines
 
You Don't Comprehend Hossy!

The CWMU Will Gladly Accept More Tags!

But They Don't Want More Public Tags!

They Want The Money Tags!

Remember:

It's All About MONEY &GREED These Days!

Ya!

Run The Herds Back & Forth Until They're All Dead!

That Should Fix It All!

Do You Think The CWMU's Want The Age Knocked Down To Where It Is Now?

Your Most Hated Thing To Hear:

More Inches Of Bone Brings More Money Home!



hossblur said:
So we just cut tags out of the area that isn't holding bulls, but maintain the CWMUs that do.

Here's a wild idea.

Keep the tags where they are and INCREASE the public tags on the CWMUs(the owner can decide to cut his paid tags to compensate or not).

The added pressure will push elk back into the unit.

I know it's a novel approach actually using CWMU to MANAGE animals and not manage IG posts bottom lines
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
You Don't Comprehend Hossy!

The CWMU Will Gladly Accept More Tags!

But They Don't Want More Public Tags!

They Want The Money Tags!

Remember:

It's All About MONEY &GREED These Days!

Ya!

Run The Herds Back & Forth Until They're All Dead!

That Should Fix It All!

Do You Think The CWMU's Want The Age Knocked Down To Where It Is Now?

Your Most Hated Thing To Hear:

More Inches Of Bone Brings More Money Home!
Click to expand...
It would be pretty easy to change that if the general public doesn’t back the CWMU program. We can get a petition together and really push it at the board meeting to force that change. If the operator and land owner doesn’t like it they can leave the program. @JakeH when does the discussion and review of the CWMU program take place next?
 
elkassassin said:
You Don't Comprehend Hossy!

The CWMU Will Gladly Accept More Tags!

But They Don't Want More Public Tags!

They Want The Money Tags!

Remember:

It's All About MONEY &GREED These Days!

Ya!

Run The Herds Back & Forth Until They're All Dead!

That Should Fix It All!

Do You Think The CWMU's Want The Age Knocked Down To Where It Is Now?

Your Most Hated Thing To Hear:

More Inches Of Bone Brings More Money Home!
Click to expand...


At some point I may have to join Vanilla in wondering if you actually hunt.

We ain't growing livestock.

We don't keep em corralled up until they are 400" then let it go.
 
Silentstalker said:
I’m not going to waste time on this thread beyond a sincere statement and reply to this particular post.

I dispute the 2023 population estimate.

Cam I know you spend a crap ton of time up on the unit. It’s your business and you’re probably the top outfitter up there. (I’m not calling you out)

Can you honestly tell me there are more elk up there right now then there was is the 2007 era?

My brother and I and a few buddies have spent a considerable amount of time up there running cameras and hunting since before it went spike only. We have watched the boom and bust of this herd and hunted most of the unit. We have killed and helped kill a pile of LE bulls.

I completely agree with your thoughts that last years winter and the great kill off of cows with control tags has led us to where we are today.

My argument lies in the overall numbers. The 2007 numbers had a population objective of 5050 elk (if I remember correctly). The DWR claim there were 6750 elk on the unit (including sub units) that winter.

IMO, There is no way there are more elk now then there was back then (I can’t speak to private land/CWMU lands) By the numbers the DWR is claiming there are 4050 more elk on the unit then in the hay-day of the mid 2000’s.

There is no doubt a lot of elk on the unit. But 4000 more than before? I sincerely believe that is not even close to correct.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Agreed 💯
 
Well You've Stooped About As Low As You Can Now!

But You're Right!

I Have No Desire To Hunt:

PISSCUTTERS!

You & Nilly Wanna Pound Your PISSCUTTERS & Get Them On IG I Say GIT-R-DONE!

I Promise You I Won't Be Mad About It!

You Wanna Hunt The Wasatch Elk Every Year With Nilly I Say Get It Opened Up For A Free For All/Anything Goes Type Of Hunt!

I Promise You I Won't Be There!

So Ya You Can Say I Must Not Hunt Because I Didn't Partake In That SShhiitt-Show!

And Don't Worry About The Manti Hossy,Nilly Is Working On Getting The Tags Doubled!

You'll Both Be In Seventh Heaven With 50,000 Other Drats!





hossblur said:
At some point I may have to join Vanilla in wondering if you actually hunt.

We ain't growing livestock.

We don't keep em corralled up until they are 400" then let it go.
Click to expand...
 
Silentstalker said:
Ok Cam, so if you and the DWR are correct then the elk are still heavily using private property. I realize there may be select spots where a big herd might seclude but the hunting on public land is nowhere near what it was back then.

Places we would see a herd with hundreds of elk in season now have but 15-20. Remote waterholes that used to see herds of twenty plus elk daily now see only a handful - a visit or two per week. Vast glassable country produce fractions of the herds we used to see. This experience is in each quadrant of the unit.

You may be seeing pockets of large herds but for a population of 10,800 you would need 21.6 herds of 500 animals. If there is in fact that many than there was way more than 6700 elk in 2007.

In the winter months you used to see huge herds driving up and down Hwy 6. There also used to be a massive herd that wintered at the mouth of Daniels on the east side. You would see literally hundreds of elk above you as you drove into town. I don’t see herds like that anymore. If there is twice the number of elk now, where are they?

I do know one CWMU that has seen a huge cut in elk numbers on the property over the last 10 years. I watched a couple big herds (20+) on a couple other CWMU last year, but not hundreds.

I know I haven’t seen 200 elk in one day on the Wasatch in years. Is anyone else seeing 100 elk a day regularly?

Do we know when the last flight was conducted?
Click to expand...
I don't venture into the Wasatch much anymore because of exactly what you are seeing also....
 
That seems a bit aggressive Muley. It’s the internet. Only weak minded people take it that seriously that they need to be so offended.

Bessy can look as dumb as he wants! No sweat off my ba…ck.


PS- you two don’t misspell it when you google it to see what it means!
 
Vanilla said:
That seems a bit aggressive Muley. It’s the internet. Only weak minded people take it that seriously that they need to be so offended.

Bessy can look as dumb as he wants! No sweat off my ba…ck.


PS- you two don’t misspell it when you google it to see what it means!
Click to expand...
I'm sure there is not much that misses your back. :)
 
All this is because I posted some educational material and really haven’t even taken a position other than saying I learned some things from it.

And then bessy has taken it and ran saying all sorts of garbage making up arguments for me (and anyone else that has had the gall to post something his sensitive little feelers haven’t liked.) Multiple weeks now of childish temper tantrums. It would be funny to go back and see how many times he’s written my name even when he wasn’t replying to me. That number would probably shock everyone!

Call me what you want. Rant all you want. Threaten me again because that really scared me! Make up more fake arguments for everyone. Keep lying, you’re good at it. There isn’t a person who has read your garbage the last couple weeks that thinks you have utilized a single brain cell in any of this. Nobody cares what you think, especially this guy! Please don’t get mad…I’ve been told I don’t want to see that!!!

But for the love of all that is holy…just shut up for ten seconds and let the adults have a conversation.
 
Come On Nilly!

Quit RUBBIN It For GAWDS Sakes!

I'll Respect You & Not Start Calling you The Name That Muley_73 Gave You!

But If You Keep RUBBIN It I Might Change My Mind!:D

I'm All For Change Nilly!

I've Said it A Million F'N Times!

We've Already Tried STUPID SSHHITT For Many Decades,Let's Don't Keep Doing STUPID SSHHITT,This Deer Herd Can't Stand To Much More STUPID SSHHITT!

Do You Understand It?

Do Something To Grow Deer Numbers In This State & Issue A Few More Tags!

Would It Be Fair To Say The BS Buck To Doe ratio Management Has Failed?

Not Only Failed,But Failed Miserably!

Now You Got People Wanting Even Lower Buck To Doe Ratio's Management Which Is Total BULLSSHHIT!

I Didn't Threaten you But You Just Keep RUBBIN It!

I'm Serious when I Say I'd Like To See you On The WB!

But I Also Think We Need A Bunch Of New Blood On The WB!

You Gotta Cool Down A Little Bit!

The RIDE In NOVEMBER Needs to Happen This Year!

About The 3rd Week In November,Get It Marked On The Calendar!

I Already Reminded hawky About The RIDE!

Are You Going With Us Or Not?

If You Don't Cool It A Little I'm Afraid Your Blood Pressure Is Gonna Get 1/2 As High As Mine & That Ain't Good!

I'm Trying To Be Reasonable With You Nilly!

It's Past Time For Good Changes!

Is It That Hard To See?
 
If it’s that far gone, then it Looks like we need another GS any bull unit.
Dam could you imagine the increase in point creep.
But on the bright side will have a lot more GS elk tags.
 
Anybody Know The TOTAL Number Of Elk Tags Issued On The WASATCH Unit In 2023?

I'm Talkin BULLS!

COWS!

CALVES!

CWMU'S!

PRIVATE LAND-OWNER!

SPIKES!

LE BULLS!

CONSERVATION TAGS!

EXPO TAGS!

BANQUET TAGS!

I'm Talkin Every Single Tag Of Any Kind!

Thanks!
 
Why don’t you dig through the numbers yourself instead of expecting others to do the work to answer your questions?

It’s all public information. It takes time to parse it and total it. Why are you demanding others do that when you’re the one asking?

I think it would be great if you used your online time to find those answers bobcat. Help us out!
 
Because According To You My Numbers Would Never Be Right!

I'm Giving The Guys That Claim To Be The Pro's Like Yourself The Chance To Answer The Question!

Most Of The Numbers wouldn't Be Hard To Find!

However I'm Wondering If Anybody Knows The Exact Number?

I've Asked A Couple Of Times If There's A LATE ARCHERY Hunt & A MULTI SEASON Hunt On The Wasatch Unit To Add To BEAVIS'S List Of Hunts But Nobody Wants To Bite I Guess!

Does Anybody-Else Know The True Numbers Of The $$$ Tags That Are Handed Out Every Year?

Just Figured Somebody Like You Nilly Or BEAVIS Or JakeH Might Already Know The Exact Number?

I'm Glad you took A Day & Cooled Off A Bit Niller!

Did you Read Post 183?







Vanilla said:
Why don’t you dig through the numbers yourself instead of expecting others to do the work to answer your questions?

It’s all public information. It takes time to parse it and total it. Why are you demanding others do that when you’re the one asking?

I think it would be great if you used your online time to find those answers bobcat. Help us out!
Click to expand...
 
I’m 1000% positive I didn’t need to cool off. I just choose who and when I respond to. I act, not react.

And I could very easily find those numbers for you, but then I’d be enabling your lazy A to keep being lazy and not knowing how things actually work in this state.

I could give you a fish and feed you for a day, or teach you to fish and feed you for a lifetime bessy. Do you want to learn how all this works finally for the first time in your life?
 
I Said:

If I Added It Up You'd Argue!

I Don't Know Too Many People That'd Argue With Their-self,But You Wear The Kings Crown On That One!

You Might Have A Bigger Fish Than Me This Year But Number Wise You Wouldn't Hold A Candle!

So Carry On With Your BS!

Vanilla said:
I’m 1000% positive I didn’t need to cool off. I just choose who and when I respond to. I act, not react.

And I could very easily find those numbers for you, but then I’d be enabling your lazy A to keep being lazy and not knowing how things actually work in this state.

I could give you a fish and feed you for a day, or teach you to fish and feed you for a lifetime bessy. Do you want to learn how all this works finally for the first time in your life?
Click to expand...
 

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