ARIZONA HUNTERS!!!
- Thread starter AZ402
- Start date
B
bacagrant
Guest
I can't go. But would try to get there if Boy George was going to show up. So just how many outastaters put in every year? Then out of that number how many get a tag? If they were all lumped in with the Az hunters how much would that change the odds?
R
Ridgedrifter
Guest
Who the hell is Boy George?
R
ridgewalker
Guest
What in the hell!! Some rich jackass doesn't think he has enough big deer in his state, so he has to go after Arizona's.. How's this judge?? He must want to have better odds of drawing too.. They're are probably buddy's..
How can they pick and choose what animals they want a better chance at..It's only for deer and elk..What..he doesn't like sheep,antelope,etc..
Residents should have some kind of advantage to hunt in their own state!!
It's sad how much money will buy!! BS!!!!!!!!
How can they pick and choose what animals they want a better chance at..It's only for deer and elk..What..he doesn't like sheep,antelope,etc..
Residents should have some kind of advantage to hunt in their own state!!
It's sad how much money will buy!! BS!!!!!!!!
3
300win.
Guest
All of us who live in arizona know how tuff it is to get a tag these days and I mean a tag. It's just not right that these guys can come in here and do this for what? the all mighty dollar thats what.
Questions from customers about the Montoya court decision and the fall draw
Wildlife News
July 15, 2004
When will I know if I got drawn?
The Arizona Game and Fish Department will keep hunters informed by posting news about the fall draw on its Web site. The Arizona Game and Fish Commission will hold a special telephone meeting Friday, July 16, and will decide how to proceed with the draw. The department will post the commission?s decision on its Web site, so check back here in the afternoon. It will be the fastest way to get information.
What about the draw results for sheep, buffalo and the other species?
If you put in for bighorn sheep, buffalo, antelope, turkey or javelina you are not affected by the ruling. Although the 10-percent cap does apply to bighorn sheep and buffalo, the lawsuit didn't challenge that cap, so the court didn't include those species in its ruling.
Will the draw results for sheep and other species be posted separately?
We cannot say yet. We have to wait for the commission to get more information at its meeting tomorrow, then wait for a decision. The department will post the information on our Web site as soon as we get it. The Web site is the best place to check for the latest information.
Will the court ruling affect the hunting season?
The change in the draw will not affect or shorten the hunting season.
Will permit tags go in the mail on July 23?
The commission has ordered that permit tags be in the mail by July 23. The only way that could change is if the commission votes to change the date.
We'll know more after the commission meets Friday, July 16. At that meeting, the commission will be briefed on its options and is expected to vote on how to direct the department to proceed. We will keep hunters informed by posting all news about the fall draw on our Web site as soon as it becomes available.
What is the commission doing about the ruling? Will they challenge it in court?
The Arizona Game and Fish Commission plans to discuss the long-term effects of the ruling and how the department should respond at its August meeting in Flagstaff. That meeting will be held August 13 on the Northern Arizona University campus. The agenda for that meeting will be posted on the Web site as soon as it's finalized.
Did the court case delay draw results this year?
No, the draw process was actually right on schedule until the court ruling came out. When the ruling came out, the judge required the Arizona Game and Fish Department to immediately stop applying the 10-percent cap and he also ruled that any actions related to the cap were ?null and void.?
Is the department going to appeal the decision?
The Game and Fish Commission will discuss the long-term impact of the court decision and its response at its meeting in Flagstaff August 13-14.
Wildlife News
July 15, 2004
When will I know if I got drawn?
The Arizona Game and Fish Department will keep hunters informed by posting news about the fall draw on its Web site. The Arizona Game and Fish Commission will hold a special telephone meeting Friday, July 16, and will decide how to proceed with the draw. The department will post the commission?s decision on its Web site, so check back here in the afternoon. It will be the fastest way to get information.
What about the draw results for sheep, buffalo and the other species?
If you put in for bighorn sheep, buffalo, antelope, turkey or javelina you are not affected by the ruling. Although the 10-percent cap does apply to bighorn sheep and buffalo, the lawsuit didn't challenge that cap, so the court didn't include those species in its ruling.
Will the draw results for sheep and other species be posted separately?
We cannot say yet. We have to wait for the commission to get more information at its meeting tomorrow, then wait for a decision. The department will post the information on our Web site as soon as we get it. The Web site is the best place to check for the latest information.
Will the court ruling affect the hunting season?
The change in the draw will not affect or shorten the hunting season.
Will permit tags go in the mail on July 23?
The commission has ordered that permit tags be in the mail by July 23. The only way that could change is if the commission votes to change the date.
We'll know more after the commission meets Friday, July 16. At that meeting, the commission will be briefed on its options and is expected to vote on how to direct the department to proceed. We will keep hunters informed by posting all news about the fall draw on our Web site as soon as it becomes available.
What is the commission doing about the ruling? Will they challenge it in court?
The Arizona Game and Fish Commission plans to discuss the long-term effects of the ruling and how the department should respond at its August meeting in Flagstaff. That meeting will be held August 13 on the Northern Arizona University campus. The agenda for that meeting will be posted on the Web site as soon as it's finalized.
Did the court case delay draw results this year?
No, the draw process was actually right on schedule until the court ruling came out. When the ruling came out, the judge required the Arizona Game and Fish Department to immediately stop applying the 10-percent cap and he also ruled that any actions related to the cap were ?null and void.?
Is the department going to appeal the decision?
The Game and Fish Commission will discuss the long-term impact of the court decision and its response at its meeting in Flagstaff August 13-14.
T
tjackson
Guest
I'm not a resident of AZ but I'm am sick about this ruling and its implications to western big game hunting. I'd guess that this will now pass through every state that has any kind of cap. How do you all think that game managers will deal with this? I'd guess that they will drastically increase out of state license fees and require the money up front to apply. The scary part of this is that hunting will further become a rich man's sport.
Elmacho
Active Member
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- 546
It is pretty upsetting. Like the last post, what will happen in other states??? this was a federal hearing, the ruling is now case law, I believe. Since it's Federal, other states may not have much defense.
As far as what it does to wildlife, alot more outta staters hunting, probably less deer harvested due to lack of local knowledge, will need more tags to compensate and reach harvest objectives. If more tags- more money to the state, less quality hunting due to numbers of people. I really hope I am making more of it than it is, but it's scary.
What's next? A suit re the pricing difference discriminating against outta staters. (wouldn't surprise me).
I will tell anyone I knwo looking for a guide not to use that outfit. Cut off the supply, the rest will solve itself.
I'm done whining. Just wish we could keep things fun, fair and honest......I don't mind the rules and prices. Residents should have priority.
Mark(Outta Stater)
As far as what it does to wildlife, alot more outta staters hunting, probably less deer harvested due to lack of local knowledge, will need more tags to compensate and reach harvest objectives. If more tags- more money to the state, less quality hunting due to numbers of people. I really hope I am making more of it than it is, but it's scary.
What's next? A suit re the pricing difference discriminating against outta staters. (wouldn't surprise me).
I will tell anyone I knwo looking for a guide not to use that outfit. Cut off the supply, the rest will solve itself.
I'm done whining. Just wish we could keep things fun, fair and honest......I don't mind the rules and prices. Residents should have priority.
Mark(Outta Stater)
Heres where things stand at this time: During executive session the comm was able to speak to Judge Bloomfields office and he agreed to hold a special hearing Monday,July 19 At 10:00 am AZ time to consider a temporary injuction. Then the commision will hold a public meeting Monday July 19 @noon in the Same building at the fairgrounds.
Also,the dept stated they will post the results for all other species not affected by this no later than July 20.
Also,the dept stated they will post the results for all other species not affected by this no later than July 20.
AZBuckSnort
Very Active Member
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LAST EDITED ON Jul-17-04 AT 12:55PM (MST)[p] Every applicant, both Non-resident & Resident, applied for the 2004 Fall AZ Big Game Drawings under a specific set of rules and procedures. All indicated consent, if not agreement, with the draw criterion by signing their submitted applications and providing for the payment of any permits they might draw.
At this point, after the agreed to process has been completed, how can the process be changed? IMO, no judge can be allowed to have the authority to change a state run drawing that has been approved by the commission that oversees the draw process and is responsible for its' implementation. Furthurmore,
our elected officials, including the Governor, cannot allow a Federal judge to dictate to our state how we distribute opportunity to utilize state resources. Unless and until we go to a national hunting license progam, the individual states MUST be able to set hunting regulations that reflect the needs of the state.
I've responded to these threads concerning the AZ Resident
vs. NR applicant controversy over the past several years. Again, I ask the question, if NR applicants are currently NOT DRAWING UP TO 10% of the available permits in the elk and North of the CR Deer units what does "lifting the cap" do to the draw? Remember, they are competing with the entire AZ resident pool of applicants for the same permits. We have no "setaside" of permits held for NR applicants only. It is possible, in theory, that NR's could draw NO tags whatsoever if the draw is purely random.
The bottomline, as always is money. The fellowship of guides and outfitters that operate in AZ want as many NR applicants as possible to draw permits because they are the applicants that will employ their services. It is sad, but not surprising, that they selfishly want more profits, more grip-n-grin ad photos, more TV & video footage of their operations hard at work on "all them public lands in Arizona".
The draw is done. The lucky applicants' permits are now being held hostage by an activist court and a greed motivated hunt operator. Shame on them! 1000's of sportsmen need to be able to plan their vacations, organize their hunting plans and get ready for the rapidly approaching elk hunts. If AZ doesn't thumb its' nose at the federal court, I for one will be damn disappointed. C'mon AZG&F, issue the tags as properly drawn and let's go huntng! What are they gonna do, hire squads of federal fish & wildlife officers to arrest us for hunting with a state issued permit?
At this point, after the agreed to process has been completed, how can the process be changed? IMO, no judge can be allowed to have the authority to change a state run drawing that has been approved by the commission that oversees the draw process and is responsible for its' implementation. Furthurmore,
our elected officials, including the Governor, cannot allow a Federal judge to dictate to our state how we distribute opportunity to utilize state resources. Unless and until we go to a national hunting license progam, the individual states MUST be able to set hunting regulations that reflect the needs of the state.
I've responded to these threads concerning the AZ Resident
vs. NR applicant controversy over the past several years. Again, I ask the question, if NR applicants are currently NOT DRAWING UP TO 10% of the available permits in the elk and North of the CR Deer units what does "lifting the cap" do to the draw? Remember, they are competing with the entire AZ resident pool of applicants for the same permits. We have no "setaside" of permits held for NR applicants only. It is possible, in theory, that NR's could draw NO tags whatsoever if the draw is purely random.
The bottomline, as always is money. The fellowship of guides and outfitters that operate in AZ want as many NR applicants as possible to draw permits because they are the applicants that will employ their services. It is sad, but not surprising, that they selfishly want more profits, more grip-n-grin ad photos, more TV & video footage of their operations hard at work on "all them public lands in Arizona".
The draw is done. The lucky applicants' permits are now being held hostage by an activist court and a greed motivated hunt operator. Shame on them! 1000's of sportsmen need to be able to plan their vacations, organize their hunting plans and get ready for the rapidly approaching elk hunts. If AZ doesn't thumb its' nose at the federal court, I for one will be damn disappointed. C'mon AZG&F, issue the tags as properly drawn and let's go huntng! What are they gonna do, hire squads of federal fish & wildlife officers to arrest us for hunting with a state issued permit?
B
Bura Nut
Guest
Stan is right on with his post. What I want to clarify for everyone is that you cant speculate on how many people will apply next year and use last years or 2003 draw percentages and expect me to agree. I believe that with the draw cap lifted, many more non-residents will apply because they have a better chance at drawing a tag, there are now more tags for them to try and draw. Simple math. Equal opportunity for all tags for a unit instead of 10% or less. This will snow ball for all western states and I bet the increased tag fee will probably be considered "discrimination" as well. If we dont do something now for all states, we will see "Equal chances and Equal cost" in many if not all states. It will throw all states Game departments into a shambles trying to make new "Management Models" to track the effects of Harvest especially in sensitive habitats like the strip/Kaibab etc......The best we can do right now over the weekend is to email AZGFD with our support of convincing the Judge Bloomfield to let this years draw stand "AS IS" and attack the draw issue for next year. There needs to be a creative way to not "discriminate" in the future without harming the residents draw odds too heavily. If we somehow dont get this taken care of in AZ then dont be surprised to see a very fast snowball effect in all western states first then many other states afterwards. AZ could have stopped this two years ago if our Assitant Attorney General would have accepted the offer of a "True 10%" alottment and not a "Cap"........AZGFD and our Attorney Generals Office are accountable for this existing mess>>>>>>>>>> Allen Taylor......
caelkhnter
Very Active Member
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Allen I truly do feel your frustration and anger and I would prefer that the draw proceed without further delay, but I must say I would be very surprized if the judge were to allow Az to go ahead with the standard procedure in light of his ruling. Seems to me that if he truly believes Az's 10% rule is unconstitutional he has no choice but to tell Az it cannot proceed as normal. The fact that it may cost Az $ or become an adminstative nightmare would not lesson his constitutional concerns. Lets take it out of the hunting context. Lets say a state had a benefit that did not apply to Irishmen simply because they were Irishmen. If the law were challenged and a court found it to be discriminatory in violation of the constitution I do not think the state would be entitled to continue apply the law because it proved to be costly and difficult to make the ordered change. I think once the judge found the law to be unconstitutional the judge would be duty bound to prevent the unconstitutional actions from continuing. Again I would like this mess to be taken care of without undue delay, and I would prefer that the state be allowed to proceed as normal, at least for this year, but I do not understand how the judge could allow it under the curcumstances. I hope I am wrong and more importantly if I am right I hope the State has a backup plan ready to avoid further delays.
fin little
Active Member
- Messages
- 764
I swear Azbucksnort, You have GOT to be one of the most perplexing people I've ever encountered. Even if only in cyberspace.
This isnt going to end in Arizona. All this is going to do is open the door for these guys to start hitting other states. YOUR STATE. They hit my home state of Arizona, now we have to wait to see what the outcome will be, so lets end it in Arizona. Post messages to every hunting site you have access to, and send and email to everyone you know. Urge them to forward the message to everyone you know, so on and so forth. Using a guide is not bad. There are several guiding services out there that are just as good or better than US Outfitters. Resident hunter or not do not use US Outfitters or anyone associated with them. If they are out of business, they wont have a leg to stand on. Dont wait for them to hit your state before you get mad and take action.
cabuck
Active Member
- Messages
- 525
caelkhunter is exactly right!! There are valid concerns toward other states, but the issue before this court is in his ruling. He can not allow the drawing to continue!! Az. should of had a back-up plan long ago!!Az. residents should be outraged at the percieved effort on the part of there F&G to resolve this issue!! So smart in game management, yet so foolish in administration of there owm laws!! Two years ago they should have been working on a new drawing system AND perhaps a new law that makes it illegal to buy and sell antlers. After all that is what the lawsuit was all about, THE RIGHT OF THR PLANTIFFS CLIENTS TO BUY AND SELL THERE ANTLERS TAKEN IN AZ. Just wake me up when the real drawing is done!!
AZBuckSnort
Very Active Member
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- 1,075
fin little,
If you ever had the opportunity to sit with me by a campfire and have a civil exchange, you'd find out I'm a reasonable, thoughtful, yet passionate, advocate for the things I believe in. Perplexing...well, my two teenagers level that charge at me all the time!
You've posted responses to this issue many times as well. You've, for the most part, been very even handed on this issue. I recall you and your crew have drawn a certain unit here in AZ and have enjoyed good success. You guys scout, hunt hard, and your efforts are rewarded. You also have testified to the necessity to "play the game" when it comes to drawing an elk tag in AZ. You all are probably working on a once every 8 years or so program. I'm in the same boat as a resident; I've had two tags in 18 years. The reality is it is very tough to draw here. The number of folks moving to AZ is significant, #2 nationally in growth in the latest statistics, and a percentage of those new residents are going to be hunters.
When you add the existing "base" of AZ resident hunters that will apply every year to the new resident applicants the pool will continue to grow. Now, throw in the regular AZ NR applicants, such as your crew, that apply every year, building BP's, and you have a fairly stable number of NR applicants. I respectfully disagree that many more NR applicants will apply just because a cap has been lifted or modified. With the advent of the credit card/internet application process I really trust that most NR's that want to hunt bull elk in AZ are already applying. Certainly the licensing outfits are applying their customers in AZ every year, they say so when ever you read their literature or see them on the tube hawking their services.
I guess a bit of civil disobedence in the name of preserving individual state sovereignty is something I would advocate in regards to this issue. The draw is done, mail the permits, and lets' go hunting! We live in a republic, a collection of states all able to determine what is best for them. We do not need the federal government to step in and dictate how we should issue hunting tags! IMO, the draw in AZ is fair.
Soon we will have to deal with the Landowner Permit issue as AZ ranchers are seeking these tags right now. There are also members of a prominent hunting organization within AZ at work trying to help the ranchers to get the tags as they will benefit when a landowner permit program is in place.
It all revolves around dollars. I believe the lust for money is the root of all evil. It is clear that the only reason this issue has come to a head on the day of the probable release of the draw results is to get more tags for NR outfitters' clients thereby increasing their profits for this year and beyond. How long before they swing a deal with the Boquillas Ranch in unit 10 and lock everyone out who doesn't have a hunt booked with their exclusive outfitter?
I didn't think it would come to this but I underestimated the degree to which greed will drive the outfitter groups to steal tags from the hard working, tax paying residents of AZ. Basically the unattached, public hunting Arizona elk hunter takes it in the shorts. Brutal. Maybe I ought to post the letter USO mailed to NR applicants for elk tags in AZ? It's a doozie with all of its' hate rhetoric and "us against them" drivel, all composed and signed by George Taulman himself.
Naturally, I'm frustrated by this circumstance. I came home from a trip expecting to log on and find out if my long history of draw failures in my own home state had come to an end for 2004. I wanted to plan my vacation time and work out my fall hunting options and plans, just like 1000's of other hunters, you included. Now, here we sit with a draw in the books and the info held hostage. It isn't right, it isn't fair, and it's wrong to change the rules when they were agreed upon before the "game" started.
If you ever had the opportunity to sit with me by a campfire and have a civil exchange, you'd find out I'm a reasonable, thoughtful, yet passionate, advocate for the things I believe in. Perplexing...well, my two teenagers level that charge at me all the time!
You've posted responses to this issue many times as well. You've, for the most part, been very even handed on this issue. I recall you and your crew have drawn a certain unit here in AZ and have enjoyed good success. You guys scout, hunt hard, and your efforts are rewarded. You also have testified to the necessity to "play the game" when it comes to drawing an elk tag in AZ. You all are probably working on a once every 8 years or so program. I'm in the same boat as a resident; I've had two tags in 18 years. The reality is it is very tough to draw here. The number of folks moving to AZ is significant, #2 nationally in growth in the latest statistics, and a percentage of those new residents are going to be hunters.
When you add the existing "base" of AZ resident hunters that will apply every year to the new resident applicants the pool will continue to grow. Now, throw in the regular AZ NR applicants, such as your crew, that apply every year, building BP's, and you have a fairly stable number of NR applicants. I respectfully disagree that many more NR applicants will apply just because a cap has been lifted or modified. With the advent of the credit card/internet application process I really trust that most NR's that want to hunt bull elk in AZ are already applying. Certainly the licensing outfits are applying their customers in AZ every year, they say so when ever you read their literature or see them on the tube hawking their services.
I guess a bit of civil disobedence in the name of preserving individual state sovereignty is something I would advocate in regards to this issue. The draw is done, mail the permits, and lets' go hunting! We live in a republic, a collection of states all able to determine what is best for them. We do not need the federal government to step in and dictate how we should issue hunting tags! IMO, the draw in AZ is fair.
Soon we will have to deal with the Landowner Permit issue as AZ ranchers are seeking these tags right now. There are also members of a prominent hunting organization within AZ at work trying to help the ranchers to get the tags as they will benefit when a landowner permit program is in place.
It all revolves around dollars. I believe the lust for money is the root of all evil. It is clear that the only reason this issue has come to a head on the day of the probable release of the draw results is to get more tags for NR outfitters' clients thereby increasing their profits for this year and beyond. How long before they swing a deal with the Boquillas Ranch in unit 10 and lock everyone out who doesn't have a hunt booked with their exclusive outfitter?
I didn't think it would come to this but I underestimated the degree to which greed will drive the outfitter groups to steal tags from the hard working, tax paying residents of AZ. Basically the unattached, public hunting Arizona elk hunter takes it in the shorts. Brutal. Maybe I ought to post the letter USO mailed to NR applicants for elk tags in AZ? It's a doozie with all of its' hate rhetoric and "us against them" drivel, all composed and signed by George Taulman himself.
Naturally, I'm frustrated by this circumstance. I came home from a trip expecting to log on and find out if my long history of draw failures in my own home state had come to an end for 2004. I wanted to plan my vacation time and work out my fall hunting options and plans, just like 1000's of other hunters, you included. Now, here we sit with a draw in the books and the info held hostage. It isn't right, it isn't fair, and it's wrong to change the rules when they were agreed upon before the "game" started.
Generally speaking, in my opinion, judges operating at this level get focused on little issues and forget to take into account the entire scope of a decision. Judge whomever needs to allow the process to continue for this year and address legalities for future draws. As mentioned, people are awaiting results so that vacations, schedules and the likes can be arranged. Any delay at this time is unnecessary.
If this ruling means that AZ is only going to need to give 10% of its tags to non residents, instead of up to 10% I don't see it as a really big deal. One in ten doesn't seem all that unfair to me.
If I were an AZ resident, I would be more concerned about an even bigger problem lurking. When land owners start getting tags for compensation, the 10% thing will be minuscule. Guess what; for every "conservation/landowner" tag that goes out. One less tag will be available to the average joe regardless of residency. This has been going on in Utah for several years and in my opinion is out of control. Give a land owner four or five tags worth about $10,000.00 each and I'll guarantee you that all sound biology gets tossed out the window. Greed becomes prevalent and big game herds suffer severely. Once a landowner gets a ?welfare check? it becomes impossible to wean them, regardless of biological necessity. I think, if I were subscribing to Garth Carter?s news letter, I would be asking him if he has been pushing for land owner tags in AZ, and why this order of business is so beneficial.
Everything about hunting is quickly becoming about somebody making a dollar. Every time ?WE? drop a dollar on a video, news letter, magazines . . . we encourage the trend!
If this ruling means that AZ is only going to need to give 10% of its tags to non residents, instead of up to 10% I don't see it as a really big deal. One in ten doesn't seem all that unfair to me.
If I were an AZ resident, I would be more concerned about an even bigger problem lurking. When land owners start getting tags for compensation, the 10% thing will be minuscule. Guess what; for every "conservation/landowner" tag that goes out. One less tag will be available to the average joe regardless of residency. This has been going on in Utah for several years and in my opinion is out of control. Give a land owner four or five tags worth about $10,000.00 each and I'll guarantee you that all sound biology gets tossed out the window. Greed becomes prevalent and big game herds suffer severely. Once a landowner gets a ?welfare check? it becomes impossible to wean them, regardless of biological necessity. I think, if I were subscribing to Garth Carter?s news letter, I would be asking him if he has been pushing for land owner tags in AZ, and why this order of business is so beneficial.
Everything about hunting is quickly becoming about somebody making a dollar. Every time ?WE? drop a dollar on a video, news letter, magazines . . . we encourage the trend!
3
300win.
Guest
How can one man and one judge dictate a state agency on it's practices. It's just not right, but it happens everyday because of lawers and our court system. We as AZ residents are discriminated against every day. Why can't we go buy a new truck in New Mexico or Idaho and register it there and pay $50.00 for registration instead of 700.00 or more here. There is five states in the union that pay no sales tax at all. So why are we paying sales tax discrimination Waaaah! We have states and state laws for a reason and should not be taken lightly. If you don't like what's going on in your state we have voting boxes. The game and fish has input meetings where hunters can give there thoughts as well. They may or may not take your advise it's whats best for the majority and majority rules until you whip out some cash for a lawer and cry discrimination.
All I know is that it's sad to see were the sport is heading and were people like Mr. Montoya is taking it. They are taking it out of our hands, and our sons and daughters as well. The people who love the sport for the memories and the thrill of the hunt not how much money I can make this season.
All I know is that it's sad to see were the sport is heading and were people like Mr. Montoya is taking it. They are taking it out of our hands, and our sons and daughters as well. The people who love the sport for the memories and the thrill of the hunt not how much money I can make this season.
caelkhnter
Very Active Member
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300Win you are correct we are all discriminated by other state laws all the time. States have a right to do that as long as they meet the constitutional requirements. I can not say that I fully understand the reason the judge did what he did, but if he is correct that Az's 10% rule invoked the commerce clause of the constitution then in order for the law to be upheld Az had to establish that the state had a legitimate interest that was rationally served by the law. When the first 9th Circuit decision came down I always expected Az on the retrial would come up with statics and info to justify the law. I do not know what happened but Az must have failed to produce the type of evidence needed to satisy the judge.
I have every confidence that AZGFD has done what they can on this subject. They have gone to bat for us, agree with what they do or not. But unfortunately, hunters as a community are very unorganized for the most part. Other than hunting and scouting, what do you do to help uphold hunting. I'm guilty of this myself. The organizations that want to ban hunting are very organized. USO is organized. They are not banning hunting, only making this a dying sport. How interested are your kids going to be in hunting if they never draw a tag. Once you leave this world, the anti's are one step closer to getting their way. And its not even a fish hugging group that is creating this scenerio. If we put the word out to everyone, via email and other hunting sites to use any guiding service other than US Outfitters or anyone associated with them, then we may stand a chance of knocking out a majority of their business. Maybe even put them out of business. Or we can moan and groan back and forth and nothing will get resolved. This will hit other states other than Arizona after this. Maybe you want to wait until it comes to your state? Go to huntuso.com and get a list of their sponsors. Drop their sponsors an email letting them know you dont approve of them supporting USO. This will only work if we flood them with letters. If you have time to sit here and read all these messages, then you have time to send a few of your own. This will also send a future message to any other outfitts like USO that plan on attempting something like this. They may think twice.
B
bacagrant
Guest
Just the owner and operator of US Outfitters. O'l George Tolman, he started this court battle several years ago, trying to get more tags for out of state hunters so he could increase his business. His name is not on the suit because he is trying to hide who he is and what he has done. You can bet it's his money behind it all.
AZBuckSnort
Very Active Member
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- 1,075
I want to know the results of the completed draw. If I was drawn and then am denied a tag by a "new draw ordered by a judge in California", perhaps I will file a class action lawsuit against every nonresident that draws a "new tag" for the units I applied in as well as every judge that sits on the 9th Circuit, and every guide and outfitter employed by USO. Anyone want to join the lawsuit? Let's start the list....
W
wwwboaringdotcom
Guest
I would be happy with 10% of tags being specifically ear-marked for NR and getting rid of the internet application process. Make everyone send in the cash. Just that would eliminate 30-50% of the people.
Also do many people think that there's going to be this big uprising in the field this year against those NR that luckily got drawn. If this happens that's totally crap. Those that got drawn should not be treated any differently than previous years NR hunters. It's not their fault that they were lucky enough to get a tag on the worst year of all.
DNO
San Luis Obispo, CA
Also do many people think that there's going to be this big uprising in the field this year against those NR that luckily got drawn. If this happens that's totally crap. Those that got drawn should not be treated any differently than previous years NR hunters. It's not their fault that they were lucky enough to get a tag on the worst year of all.
DNO
San Luis Obispo, CA
3
300win.
Guest
We are keeping our tags this year. There just adding 805 tags to go to NR's. Next year we will get the hose.
S
Someburro
Guest
I say we issue 1,000 Bull Elk, early season rut tags to NR's only. Do not raise the fees.
In units 33,34,35,40,41,42.
In units 33,34,35,40,41,42.
B
bigdeer
Guest
I totally agree with someburro!!!
heck, lets let them use their rifles during archery season too!!
Even, better: they can even scout the area with their airplanes too!!
heck, lets let them use their rifles during archery season too!!
Even, better: they can even scout the area with their airplanes too!!
H
Hornseeker
Guest
This is F'd big time! I sure hope some miracle happens that turns this around!?!
SPAZ
Active Member
- Messages
- 568
HOly crap I drew!!! I drew!! I dreww!! both antelope and elk in the same area, the first time I ever applied!! Same dates so I can hunt both at hht same time!! I'm STOKED.. even though the USA Outfitter lawsuit held it up!! I've always wanted to visit Arizona and go hunting too. This will be great!!
Good luck to all the rest of you in the drawing!
Good luck to all the rest of you in the drawing!
N
no_draws
Guest
Got skunked for deer but I drew my Archery Bull Elk tag.
JG
JG
