Another B&C idea....reject B&C

C

Canyonroad

Guest
How about we completely reject the BC system. I'm new to the forum so you can hammer me with newby threads, but really does anyone else get tired of the arbitary numbers we apply to our game animals? Its not just on MM but most anywhere hunters may gather. In Sportsmen's you hear about some guy's 175 buck going over the ridge, or at the post office someone's neighbor buddies 365 bull. Is this numeral reference that important to our sport/passion/profession? Someone on this forum posts a story about their hunt and the great experience and there are ten requests for "what did he score". I shot a thirty inch buck three years ago and that is the only measurement I've made,to check the width, but I did measure it. Perhaps I'm guilty too of needing a reference point for this animal that I killed, but to me it is the trophy of a lifetime and I couldn't care less about a BC number. I wonder if we've become so number crazy that we aren't hunting anymore, were accounting!
"Ya, went out scouting and saw a 178, a 160 three point and a monster pushing 201; thats 539 for the weekend".
 
I guess it's the formula to figure out..."My buck is bigger than your buck!"

Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"
 
I've never killed anything B&C in 40 years of hunting, and have never gone out with that as my primary purpose, so I guess it's not that important. But if I was ever lucky enough to bag one I sure would put it in the book.

Steve
 
I would personally not enter anything into the record books. I do like having a universal measuring system that we can use to identify certain animals in the field. When a hunter comes in and says he saw a 180" deer you will typically have a good idea of what he was. I really like being able to use the system when hearing about or describing deer.

Drum
 
I like the gross score whether it be typical or nontypical. I could care less how perfect the rack was, the more horn the better. I like trash! Forget the net score.
 
I think theres nothing wrong with saying a deer scored XXX or whatever. Its just one way to describe or compare it to something else.
 
Canyonroad,
I would have to agree with huntsonora on this. I'm not interested in getting my name in "the book". I just like to use it as a reference system. Some people like to say they shot a 190? typical, others like you would rather say, ?I shot a 30? buck?. Both are just reference systems, the B&C score just gives you a better idea of what the animal looks like.

In a way I think you are saying that you don't like the way some hunter determine the success of the hunt by the size of the antlers. I shot a dink this year but I bet I enjoyed my hunt more than many of the guys that bagged wall hangers this year. In my opinion my hunt was more successful than those other guys but then again it is only my opinon.

Bornforhorns,
I like a high gross score more than a high net score too but I still would like to get a big typical with a symetrical rack.
 
The word deductions should be stricken from the B&C score sheets. I do agree that it has gotten a little out of control. I'm as guilty as anyone. When i was growing up hunting with my dad and friends, the term "trophy hunter" was a dirty word. Those guy's were the scum of the earth. Now i guess that is exactly what i have become.
 
Now i can't speak for everyone here. I personally don't always think of score as to the B&C book. "Numbers" on animals help me picture in my mind what he looks like if there is no picture. If i hear someone killed a 6x6 bull, that tells me nothing at all. But when i hear someone killed a 350 bull, i pretty much know what he's going to look like. Same thing with a 190 buck (unless he's a non-typical of course). All animals are "trophies", some are just bigger, and the numbers help dictate that to me.
Slamdunk
 
My rifle buck this year was a 4x4 with eyeguards grossed 142 to some that might not be monsterous but it was a true trophy to me . I have never mentioned the score of this buck out of all the forums i have showed pics of my bucks . I really dont care about net either . Trash is better its just more unique .

later , hunter cameron
 
I probably agree in some ways with everyone that has replied on this subject...this guy that I got in WY this year will never be anybody's "great mass" or "huge spread" buck, but I worked hard for this deer and that's what matters to me...I've rec'd some relatively negative comments about this deer, but they really don't mean anything to me...this guy probably scores no more than 130", but I'll never care nor never know (I'm not much of a scoring master).

WYMuleDeer005.jpg
 
People that didn't have the ability to see John Elway play in the 4th quarter of many games, have no idea how good he really was. His statistics back up what he did in the field. B&C is a scoring and statistical system. Take it as you may. The playing field of our Gods wildlife is much larger than any organization. Play your own game out in the field and in life. The scoring system is something to go by if you desire or are pressured to abide by. I get the same shakes from a little four corn to the next 5x5 monster. Thats what I am trying to pass down to my son.

Curtzilla34
 
Not sure how I feel about this one. I guess I see both sides. Most of us are lucky to shoot one decent deer in a lifetime. Now where I hunt that would be 150+ (there I go using numbers). My thought is why are you hunting? To make the books? Or is it because you can remember hunting with your dad and grandpa when you were a kid? Or is it because when the first leave drops in the fall you get the fever! Is it in your blood or do you just want the "trophy"? I think you can see where I'm going. I hunt because I love it and for no other reason...but I use numbers also just so friends or others who can't see the buck get the general idea of his size. More often then not I tend to use phrases like "big 3-pt" or "barely a 4-pt". I don't think it's a bad thing to use numbers, I think the real questions is why do you hunt? For the Love of it or for the Trophy? (I think Utopia involves both :) )

CPSANDMAN
"The Buck stops here...I hope!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-04 AT 00:38AM (MST)[p]This is for kicker
IF YOUR GOING TO BE A BEAR BE A GRIZZLY BEAR!
I am going to bite my lip on that statement until I cool down!
Iam probably the most dedicated and ethical hunter you would ever meet kicker and I am not the scum of the earth! Hope we can meet someday!
 
IF YOUR GOING TO BE A BEAR BE A GRIZZLY BEAR!
I thought this web site was about monster muleys! I know for myself that is why I go to this site before anything else.I guess you guys don't have any monster muleys so you cut the trophy hunter down.If you don't care what it scores then why the hell are you so interested in big bucks. Enough of this Bull----! You tell me if you was lucky enough to take a giant mule deer you would'nt have it scored? Bull----! Keep telling your self that.Youi guys try and act like your so self rightous and You just do it for the enjoyment of just being out there in nature.
Maybe I am alone on this but I hunt those big muleys because
the excitement and rush I get by seeing or taking a huge buck.After all the scouting and looking for a big buck and then to be able to put it altogeather and be able to take a big buck turns my crank. Anybody can go out and kill an average buck anywhere any state that has mule deer hunting.You guys just keep on killing those little bucks and you will never see a big one. Also that will leave alot more of those B and C bucks to the trophy hunters(Scum of the earth} as we are called.!
 
Me and the guys I hunt with have had this conversation several times. Forget the score and take the buck that turns you on. Me and my buddies have gotten so caught up in SCORE of a buck that we have lost sight of the FUN of the hunt. I agree with huntsonora in that I like the point of reference a score can give you. But before you pull that trigger or release that string, if SCORE is running through your mind then maybe we should take a step back and evaluate just exactly why we are hunting.

"We MUST Hunt"
 
Whoa there thirtyincher...I don't think anybody here referred to trophy hunters as "scum of the earth" and I don't recall anybody directly cutting down the trophy hunter. In fact, the term "trophy hunter" is a VERY relative term and leaves room for judgement and opinion...I enjoy looking at big buck pics as much as the next guy...this website supplies the fuel for my dreams. PERSONALLY, I don't think I could pass a 175" class buck to hold out for the elusive 200". The reason being is that I wouldn't know the difference for sure. "There's a bruiser and there's a bigger bruiser", would generally be my take...As you stated, if I shot a giant mule deer I would probably get it scored...yes I would, but only to provide some sort of arbritrary comparison...Geez, I hunted hard in WY for 5 days and passed on approx. 18 bucks before taking the one posted above on the last afternoon of my trip...According to your comments, I'm nothing more than a "cull hunter", which I'm somewhat offended by.

After all, I've been hunting in the West for 3 years now and to me the most valuable aspect of MM is not the pics, but the wealth of info that can be exchanged.
 
I also think it is more for comparison purposes. It is easier to visualize a 360 bull, versus a 6X6. I know if I was only after "B&C score", I would probably never get another deer as I don't feel I can honestly make a close score on an animal that may be moving or in thick brush, let alone out in the open. I want to try and take the best buck or bull I can, but I won't look a "gift horse" in the mouth if a good animal presents itself. There is not a thing wrong with Trophy Hunting in my book, but some people have called me "unethical" on another forum because I told them that I hunt for the experience, not the meat. To me the meat is an added bonus if I harvest an animal, but if I don't harvest, I don't feel like I have been unsuccessful because I didn't get any meat. I guess the best way to say it is "to each his own". I agree that no matter who you are, if you take a big animal, you will probably get it scored, just to see how it stacks up against other trophys, but if you committed to pull the trigger, it must have been a trophy to you!! And that is OK!!!! You need to please yourself!!
a*r

A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 
I agree with huntsonora and BrianID that seeing my name in print in a record book doesn't do anything for me. But I do like having the B&C score as a reference if I'm talking to fellow hunters, guides, etc. and getting info on what caliber bucks have been seen in an area. There's a big difference between just hearing someone saw a "4x4 with a nice spread", and "a 180" 4x4".
I also agree with sealer on the fact that many, me included, don't come to this site SPECIFICALLY for pictures and info on monster muleys, but for all the information that is to be learned about hunting out west. Hey thirtyincher, if this site is only for learning about monster mule deer, why is there an elk hunting forum, couse deer forum, antelope, sheep, goat, blacktail, etc, etc. RELAX thirtyincher.

Lien2
 
There are alot of people on here that are trophy hunters, I am one of them; however, if we had no scoring system I would have no reason to live. It is one of those things that pushes me to always hunt harder and look longer, spend a little more time watching, or spend a little more time walking. If I didnt care what an animal scored I probably would never scout at all. My dream is to kill a 360+ bull and a 200 inch buck. These goals push me to hunt harder. I guess it is just for status but isnt our country built around competition and always pushing each other. We are Americans dam** this is what we do, comptete to see who can shoot the biggest buck or bull. I have personaly never entered a deer in boone& crockett because I have never shot anything that I think deserves to go in there(the $50 dollar entry fee doesnt help). It just pushes me to hunt harder,I spend more time in the woods studying antlers and trying to score every descent animal I see. So I dont know I guess this is just personal preference?????????
 
Part of my argument to reject BC is based on money. Boone and Crockett equals big money. If we don't score that 390 bull it is just a six point. Would we really pay $13,000 to hunt a six point? Would those Governor's tag bring $90,000 of you were just out hunting a big four-point muley? The scoring system has changed hunting, and I believe the scoring system has made it much more expense. We are all non-residents outside our home state; would states have been able to raise non-res tags to the present level if we'ren't seeking a 190 class buck? One last point; If BC doesn't equal big bucks(no pun intended) why did Cabela's make Don Schaufler a very rich man in purchasing his bone collection? There is something here to thing about.
 
Growing up in a family that "hunted to eat" I guess my only reference system was "how much did the animal weigh?".

That's a directly transferable scoring system to post hunting enjoyment. The more weight, the more good eatin..
 
I know and hunt with a lot of people that take the first legal animal they see. They also have taken a few nice wall hangers. I myself find my "first buck seen" hard to pass. Actually, I've yet to pass up any buck I've seen.

Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"
 
Wow! I want to apologize to anyone that took offense to my post. I said that growing up my dad and his hunting buddies considered trophy hunters as scum of the earth. That was 30 years ago, and they only felt that way for two reasons, (1)out of ignorance, (2)because they hunted for the meat to get us through the winter. If they didn't take the first legal animal and ended up getting skunked, that meant less food on the table for their families. They had a great responsibility to provide for their families and that is where the negative attitude came from. They couldnt't fathom a hunter passing an animal because of score or antler size, because they were in a different situation. These day's the economy is different and they too dream of taking a monster muley or bull just for the pride of it. They have the finances to take care of their own and hunting is a different ball game to them now. So i did not mean that "TROPHY HUNTERS" are the scum of the earth. If i felt that way why would i spend so much time on this site talking about trophy bucks and bulls. I'm am a trophy hunter. I pass up more animals every year than most people see in two seasons. I live for monster bucks and bulls.

Kicker
 
I like B&C scores for purposes of getting a general idea for the overall size of the animal, I don't think we should do away with B&C but just not focus on it as much.
 
kicker,
Anybody that read and actually COMPREHENDED your post was clear on what you meant. My grandpa used to talk about trophy hunters with the same disgust he talked about Nazis. It was a different time back then. My mom has a picture of him and his Dad in 1934 with two mule deer that would EASILY score over 200 typical....MONSTERS.....Guess what they did with the horns...Yep, cut 'em off and left 'em. ME on the otherhand,I love big deer and big elk. I look for the biggest horns I can find because that is what I like to do.....to each, their own......FWIW-my grandpa before he died really got a kick out of the big deer and elk I shot....
 
Kicker and gil_wy,
Good point. I'm old enough to remember when a "trophy hunter" was usually some rich city slicker who would saw the antlers off and leave the rest to go to waste. A lot of people resented them back then and I don't blame them.

Thankfully that has changed for the most part. The vast majority of trophy hunters today do it ethically with the proper respect for the laws and the wildlife.
 
IF YOUR GOING TO BE A BEAR BE A GRIZZLY BEAR!
For kicker
Sorry about the post kicker I guess I took it all wrong. I had just had a argument with a guy back east that said because I bait bears I was an unethical hunter.But he had a deer feeder and that was different. So again I am sorry if I took it the wrong way. I just get tired of so called hunters saying if you are a trophy hunter you are doing it for the wrong reason.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-20-04 AT 00:17AM (MST)[p]To thirtyincher,

Hey let's forget it and go huntin'. P.S. I love all the pics you post of past and present MM. Being a native of idaho there is just something more special to see those big idaho bucks.
 
This is kinda a funny post. There are alot of things ro rhink about before saying trophy hunter, horn hunter,meat hunter or whatever.
My opinion is this. I dont agree the scoring of a buck with a net score. It should be gross. Give the animal what it deserves. I have wondered what the buck went threw in life and how many hunters it has eluded. Every big buck I see. To be big he had to be smart. I talked to a guy last week that when they skinned a big buck they found copper and plastic from ballistic tips off a small caliber rifle in the meat of the hind quarter. They also found several different shot from shotguns. So the buck could of been poached.
As for score. Its a easy way to describe a buck or bull. Most people know scores. Have you ever talked to golfers? Same thing with them. They say there handicap is blah blah blah. There last game they where 10 under par or whatever. Hound hunters, Oh we treed x amount of cats or bears this year. Coin collectors I have x amount of coins with some dated back to Blah blah. I could go on.
Another thing is this. It all depends on where you live or what the population of big bucks are at what you will shoot. I hunt strictly for horns for mule deer. Archery hunt them though. I have done alot of work finding them and spend more money on doing it than alot of others do that just go hunt. My bucks cost me time and money. But I live in a area where if you do your work you can find a decent number of good bucks. I know some guys that live in good elk country. They hold out for a good bull. So if you have a good area to hunt with good bucks and you knew it would you shoot a small one if YOU wanted some on the wall? If you havent been in the position of hunting mature bucks and bulls then it is hard to understand this. I know there are other hunters out there that can realte to this. I also believe there are hunters out there that have seen more big bucks than most hunters combined have seen in a lifetime. I know a guy and saw some video of some bucks last week from a guy that would make most hunters cry. Almost made me. They where huge. I am not talking just a little huge. I am talking huge. There where several that go huge. But like I said if you had some good area's then you would know. That is why people hire a guide service or whatever. The guide will tell the client to hold off there is bigger.
I have shot several that would make book but have yet to enter any of them. I will not enter them. My son said when he gets them when I am gone he will enter them. I said whatever. I told him it is not about a score in a book. It is about the hunt.
But that is why when I post I always post gross scores as I dont ask and dont care what net score is. As for looking down on any buck that anyone shot I have not done that. I think maybe that is there best yet or the best in that area. Some people dont have the luxury of spending alot of time afield so they dont have the time to hold off.I have yet to condemn a hunter for doing or taking any animal.
But again a score is just a reference point to conversations as there is always some that know scores and it easy to visualize a number.I have guys that know me that havent seen my pics ask me about my buck and they ask width and score. Just easy to point out score.
These are just my thoughts.



fca2e9e9.jpg
 
Good post Supersider34. I agree we should not throw out b&c as it is a good reference for talk without pictures. Anyone who is up with the system knows when you say 200 inch gross B&C with 40 inches of mass. It is the best and most widely recognized system. If someone is or isn't a trophy hunter doesn't make any difference to me as long as they enjoy the hunt,the awesome places Mule Deer live and the delicious meat. I think trophy hunters can be great for the fact that they often do not take an animal leaving more for everyone else.
 
I guess I am an evil headhunter and there may be those who are offended by that. But if you pencil it out I don't think that you will often find that deer meat is very economical source of protien. With the price of tags, fuel, hunting gear, game processing not to mention your time there has to be some other reason you are hunting. We all know it's the antlers and the size/configuration of them. which makes the B&C system a must.
How else can you compaire an animal? I mostly care about a bucks GROSS SCORE though. IF A BUCK GREW IT HE SHOULD GET CREDIT FOR IT. I don't think anyone can dispute the fact that there are a heck of alot more 150 to 170 class bucks out there so to me that makes the larger 190+ bucks a much greater challenge. If I shot the first 160 buck I saw every season my hunting time would be cut down tremendously. I also know that you will never kill a pig if you can't pass on the more plentiful smaller bucks. I see no need to fill my shed with the racks of decent deer. (Unless they are sheds.) If I shoot a buck he's going to be one for the wall if not the book.
MY GOAL IS TO NEVER SHOOT A BUCK THAT IS SMALLER THAN ANY I'VE TAKEN TO DATE. (Of course I hope at some point that will be impossible) but thats the idea. So for ME there is room for personal improvment.
 

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