Muzzleloader Illiterate, Please Help!

I am looking to but a new muzzleloader to use for a deer hunt in CO and an elk hunt in NM if I am fortunate enough to draw the tags. I was thinking about a .45 caliber until I read the other post that said I would be required to have a .50 for elk in some states. I just want one muzzleloader that will do everything I need it to do. Thats why I think a .50 would be the best choice. Now, the question I have is this, without breaking the bank, what muzzleloader would best suit my needs? I would like a fairly simple muzzleloader that is both a good gun and a good buy. What are everyones thoughts and I appreciate any help you guys and gals can give me.

Drummond

Hey Drummond,

Here is a response to an earlier post that I typed up.... My whole set up cost me 240 dollars..... I shoot 209 primers and I don't think that you can beat the deal.... I shoot every bit as accurate as my buddies that shoot T/C's and Knights and Whites....if not better!!! and I paid half the money for my set up....Bass Pro has some great deals on CVA's may be worth a look.

I have a CVA 50 cal. inline and I love it.....I know that many may say that you need to go out and spend a million dollars on a gun but I have had mine for three years and I have been successful with it for three year in a row. It shoots great and the price was even better. I have the nickel barrel and mossyoak breakup stock. I also went out and put a millot red dot scope on it. I honestly don't think you could go wrong with it. I personally think that the load that you shoot has more to do with accuracy than what gun you shoot....So for the money you get a great gun!!!!
Inmysights

Huntsonora,
I am shooting a 50cal. Knight Bighorn with a 22in. barrel. They haven't been made in a few years and you can get them quite cheap if you search the web. Anyway, I really like it, legal in every western state, light weight and well balanced, good fit and finish, an all around great shooter. I am thinking of buying another one before they're all gone.
But, I expect you'll get lots of other suggestion too. Have fun shopping.

Greg

LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-03 AT 11:00AM (MST)[p]Hi Huntsonora,

I've seen a couple traditions that shoot good and the CVAs too. T/C's Black Diamonds shoot pretty good--all in the 1 in 28" twist range. They're going to be from $100 to $250 and the lower-end T/Cs.

For $300 to $500 you're going to get into a little more solid muzzleloader in terms of actions and other componenents like triggers, sights--maybe a slightly better barrel. These are the Winchesters, Ruger, Remingtons, T/C Omega's, 320 Austin & Hallecks (italian barrels...maybe the same mfg as traditions), and most Knights and some White muzzleloaders.

For $500-$800 on up you can get into a T/C Encore, Some fanciercustom shop Knights, Markesbery, Kahnke, custom White.

Anything more than that you're paying for fancy wood, engraving, match-grade barrels, etc.

Out of the box, I like the Remington 700 series the best out of the box. The trigger is great, good barrels, the stock fits me the best & I prefer the monte carlo style over a straight stock, the sights are not fiber optic which I prefer (and is legal in Oregon muzzleloader hunts)--the one I owned seem to group almost all components acceptably.

Anyway, it's pretty much whatever you find desirable in a gun. Since I sold my omega, I'm going to an Encore or Remington. If I get an Encore, I'm going to have to have the QLA part cut off and recrowned with a target crown. But, I've had thoughts of Kahnke, or a Markesbery Blackbear NRA edition--both about $550--both high quality out of box.

If you get an Omega, you'll won't be able to hunt Idaho with 209 ignition so you'd have to find someone that would customize a breechplug for you. And you'd have to put on after-market, non-fiber optic sights for Oregon.

The remington .50 cal is good in any non-traditional hunt in the Western US with components shipped in a box.

One thing thing to keep in mind is that Cabelas, maybe Basspro and others, have a 6 month to 1 year return policy on their muzzleloaders. So, if you get one in the mail and just don't like you can send it back and get credit towards another one that might be more to your liking.

On T/Cs, I've noticed I've had to loc-tite all the thimbals that hold the ramrod and sights 'cause they didn't do that on the production line...probably 'caused a lot of misses...good to really look any of them over.

Bill pretty much gave you the skinny on the shooting match. I really like the omega and Mk-85. Go with the 50. cal easier to find bullets and stuff,The .45 might reach out farther but after 200 yds Drop is drop.Heavy bullets hit hard period.

Drummond,

I'd still recommend that you get 2 rifles. A 50 for you, and I'm sure Tara needs a 45. Colorado does not allow scopes, but New Mexico does. So, you've GOT to have one with and one without. Some states also allow only percussion caps, so be sure to get a rifle that shoots not only 209's but percussion caps as well.

I thought I could use just one muzzleloader to meet all needs, but have finally ended up with three. If you are just getting your first, this thread has given real solid advice. I'd get a good 50 caliber and put some good open sights on it. Check the peep sight thread for my set up. That is the ticket for open sights.

Good luck.

Jim

Guys, thank you all so much for all of the info. I do have a few more questions though. First, I really like the blued barrels due to the lack of light reflection but are the stainless barrels easier to maintain? Also, I am only going to use my muzzleloader for maybe one or two hunts a year, that being said, will a CVA suit my needs? For the price and from what others have told me, it seems to be a great deal. I have heard very few negative things as of yet. Will a CVA shoot a percussion cap if it has the 209 primer? I hope I worded that last question properly. Anyway, thank you guys again for helping me with my decision, I will let you guys know what I decide on.

Drummond

Drummond,

My CVA came with the percussion breech plug already in and they sent the 209 breech plug with it....so all I had to do was switch them out. It is quite easy to switch it over to a percussion if it comes with a 209. Also, I like the nickle barrel because it is easier to maintain but it isn't that much work to maintain a blued barrel...You just have to take care of your gun like any of the others that you own. Good luck and happy shopping!!!! Let me know what you end up with.

Inmysights

CVA's are like the last woman in the bar at the end of the night, they look like crap and may not have the best options, but work in a pinch...

I have a CVA Firebolt with a blued barel, that shoots sub 2" groups at a 100 yds all day long. One nice thing about the CVA as someone mentioned is that it is very easy and cheap to convert form percusion cap to a 209. I think the kit for the conversion is about $15-$20. If you get a Knight for example, the conversion kit will run you about $50. The only thing that I have found that I really don't like about the CVA is that the trigger is not so good, kind of sticky... but it works.

I use my muzzy for about 5-6 days a year, and as far as I'm concerned, it works just fine for me. A nice high dollar rig would be nice, but come on... How much better is a $500 rig going to shoot at a 100-150 yards than the $150 CVA? The end result is still the same...

One thing that I would recomend is a nice set of detachable scope rings, it just makes things so much easier when cleaning. I take my scope off when I clean up, with the detacable mounts I don't have to worry so much about your scope being "on" the next time I go hunting.

Good luck
Ivan

Hello all, even though this is my first post here I have some insight that may help. My first ML was a CVA Eclipse hunter. For the most part I liked it, any combo I loaded shot well. I had to file the trigger catch before I was comfortable with the pull. Even though the CVA would've done the job I felt a higher quality ML was a good choice seeing how I turned into a fanatic after my first season.
I bought an Austin&Halleck 320 with a nickel barrel and realtree stock. I love it. In fact you guys may think I am crazy when you figure out how bias I am towards A&H. The accuracy was a little finicky at first but it shoots Powerbelts extremely well. It's dependable, feels awesome, and cleans real easy. Very few firearms are void of problems, mine had a few. The customer service I recieved from Ray at A&H was WELL worth the extra price of the ML. If you are serious about ML hunting you should check them out, it will be worth the time.

out4elk,

I really appreciate your input and I hope you continue to post on MM. I have not looked into the AH but I will check them out. I'll let you know what I find out and decide to go with.

Thanks,
Drummond

If you're going to hunt Elk go with at least a .50 (but you've already figured that out). A .50 has the advantage the widest selection of bullets, pellets (if you want to use them), and guns.
Now the question of what gun to buy.
Everyone seems to be going to in-lines and they are great guns. My only in-line is the Cabelas rolling block muzzleloader and it is a great gun. Might be more than I would spend for my first ML, but if you know you're in it for the long haul take a look at it. Personally I believe all the ML on the market today shoot well enough for hunting, so if really boils down to personal perference and budget. While I believe all the MLs are fair to really good shooters some of the cheaper ones cut cost on other components like the stock, hardware, sites and lock/fireing pin. If you don't know if you're going to like MLing save some money and go with one of the cheaper ones. If you think you will be using your gun for many years most of the $250+ guns are will last, with the proper care, as long as you will. I've got some good articles on my site if you're just starting out. Bluelk as some good information posted here. Good luck.

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Check out my black powder site at:
www.angelfire.com/home/oldguns

hey drummond ,
i think you should get a thompson .50 cal black diamond xr . i boght this gun last year and am very happy with it . i like the flexibility to use the #11 cap , musket cap , or 209 primer . the 209 is the most reliable sorce of ignition but some states dont allow it (like idaho). so then i switch to the musket cap because it burns alot hotter than the #11 cap . i have never had a miss fire using the musket cap and have hunted in extreme cold and snow .i also like the stainless steel 28" barrel with a 1-28 twist, it is a matt finish so the glare is not too bad you dont have to worry about the rust as much . when i developed my hunting load i put a scope on the gun to find the tigest group ,the load that worked for me was 130 gr of 2fg triple seven powder. with the hornady 240xtp bullet and sabot velocity averaged 2000 fps with 5 shots. i used the musket cap for ignition. i got 1-1/2"-2" groups at 100 yds with this combintion . i also lapped the barrel and it tightened up the group . i am thinking about moving up to the 300 gr xtp because i had a couple of deer that the bullet didnt pass through both sides . it lodged just under the skin on the opposite side . so with the 300gr xtps ballistic coefficent it should shoot just as flat and im sure would go through each side i am going to shoot it through th chronograph and check the speed.i was able to recover some of the slugs from the deer and they measured 7/8" to 1-1/8" which the shots were about 125 yards so this was good expansion and they had good retained weight also.the ones i recovered hit the shuder bone and a couple of ribs . i also liked the adjustable trigger on the black diamond and the synthetic camo stock .if you want a complet list of the products i use ust e mail me and i can let you know what works and what doesnt so you dont waste money on the stuff that doesnt work well.one other note : i do like the easy load barrel on the thompson it makes alot easier to get that bullet started with the taper cut into the end it lines up the bullet perfectly every time, especially when you have to make a follow up shot . just my 2 cents talk to you later , tom .

To bigtom

Where did you find a T/C Black Diamond XR with a 28" barrel... I never seen one advertised??


Sometimes we're the dog -- sometimes we're the fire hydrant.

Rem, 700 50 cal. mag. muzzy inline, stainless steel W/ synthetic stock.
looks great, feels great, and best of all shoots great.

hey triple havent you seen the new extra extra xr long range ? with the barrel that is 2" longer . ( just kidding )i must have hit the wrong key , your right the xr blackdiamond has a 26" barrel thanks for correcting me .

the omega is listed with a 28" barrel,
last week i sat one next to a Knight and 2" longer is a big difference.