2011 Tag Quota

B

Brandon82

Guest
Nevada Wildlife Commission Decrease Mule Deer Quotas By 25%, Saturday, May 14, 2011

On Saturday, the Nevada Wildlife Commission, under the leadership of Chairman Raine and Vice Chairman Lent, decided to reduce Mule Deer quotas in Hunts 1331, 1341 and 1371 by 25% below NDOW 2011 recommendations, except in areas 04, 05, 15, 18 and 23 where the quotas will be reduced by 10% below NDOW 2011 recommendations. This extreme action was taken despite protests from NDOW staff, the County Advisory Boards, and the public. Commissioners McBeath, Cavin and Wallace fought for 4 hours and seven amendments with arguments against the action including that the Commission was violating it's own policies and making decisions without the consideration of any scientific evidence; but in the end did not have sufficient support from the balance of the Commission to prevent the action. Just prior to the final vote Deputy Director Cates, at the request of Commissioner McBeath, estimated the
loss in revenue to NDOW to be about $600,000.
 
Thanks for the update! Are the quotas available online? Why is it that the Chairman felt it necessary to cut tags by 25%? What is their rationale?
 
Is anyone else getting tired of this bull$hit commission? To answer the question of why they did it, it's because they think they are smarter than all the biologists that work for NDOW. It was an arbitrary decision based on nothing but coffee shop management. Thank god Lent's position is up for reappointment July 1. But we need to get rid of a couple others including the illustrious chairman who allegedly represents us sportsmen but crawled into bed with livestock interests and Lent, who is in bed with... well, lets just say they need to be gone.

Don't know about you guys and gals but my ass is getting sore.
 
Amen to that. I wonder if they are going to play with thier red pens on the elk and sheep quota recomendations also. The bio's gotta be grinding thier teeth flat!
 
Mine is too, NVB. I could not believe what I was hearing.

I was not at the meeting so maybe someone can enlighten me.
I heard that they tried to completely eliminate area 10 tags, please tell me I was misinformed. PLEASE.

Raine, Lent, Howell, Shrum, Vogler; what a total train wreck.

The damage this commission has caused, it will make it tuff if not impossible to recover from.

Alex
 
Anyone know if we can get a transcript of the meeting. I need to know excatly who to bark at. And more importantly who to give an attaboy to.
 
In the spirit of playing Devil's Advocate...

Is there anything beneficial from this like decreased quota leading to more animals in each range? If you assume harvest rates between all the hunts are 30%. and say 1000 tags are given. thats 300 animals taken. reduce the number by 25% making it 750 tags and harvest of 225 animals.

Obviously these numbers are not reflective of the actual #s but more a reflection of how the data works. With that being said there would appear that regardless the herds in this state will sustain less than normal harvest and if this is maintained for 4-5 years wont we see an increase in buck #s barring some sort of major winter kill or fire?
 
LAST EDITED ON May-16-11 AT 05:37PM (MST)[p]So what's the use of paying and keeping all of these biolgist throughout the state if these clowns are just going to decide for themselves what the quotas should be?

The biologist spend alot of time in the field collecting data mainly for this purpose. I am all for a conservative aproach for the big game animals in this state and I believe Nevada does a damn good job of just that, but unless there is something going on we don't know about this is fricken stupid.
 
I am not a biologist but I would think that the buck numbers probably won't sky rocket because a)I doubt they keep the quotas the same for that amount of time b)there are only so many does that can be bred during any given year c)In most of the areas where there have been fires or bad winters the habitat is at or near carrying capacity, according to bioloogists. I think the 600k could have been used to improve these areas along with providing sportsmen with hunting opportunities. The 25% across the board really showed me something....
 
Yup, this Commission is out of control. I too would like to see the deer herds back to the level they were in the 1980's, but this commissions belief that they have all the answers is just plan ignorant of all science. No governing body can legislate or govern the deer back to what their pee brains THINK should roam the wilds of Nevada. Their arrogance and ignorance is simply mind boggling.

I have, and we all need to, write the Governor's Office and several Senators asking them to take the appropriate action to balance the authority of this commission, and they can start by passing AB322. The commission pays no attention the biologists, the County Advisory Boards, the public, no one. This is not how a government body should be operating. Clearly abuse of power! They continue to offend and disrespect the organizations and people who work tirelessly to benefit Nevada's wildlife.

I would support a decrease quota reductions which are based on sound science as presented by the educated professionals we hired to collect the information, study the models, and make sound recommendations. Non-scientific decisions can result in winter range damage, disease, and low fawn recruitment based on range degradation. Their decision this past weekend could be disaster for Nevada deer in just a few years.

I think we ought to throw the bums off the commission and sentence them to five long years of harvesting pinion and juniper by hand so maybe the deer will have some forage for the years to come.

.... okay, I better stop right there!
 
I can't believe they did this. This is going to screw a lot of people out of a tag this year. Not to mention, cause some unneeded point creep.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-16-11 AT 09:25PM (MST)[p]Alex, its true. I was told by my county's chairman that the proposal to close area 10 entirely came out of the mouth of Vogler. I have a copy of Lents map he colored with what looks like crayon that they used to make the arbitrary cuts. They basically pushed the recommendation book aside.

Write the Governor guys but be aware that there seems to be legal stumbling blocks in the way of replacing them before their terms anre up.


Uglydog, The recorded meeting will be on NDOWs webpage but it take a few weeks usually to show up. They make for interesting listening if you're looking to raise your blood pressure.

I was also told that there was a comment made that Nevada should just close sage grouse season. Do that and it will be listed and never hunted again. Those cowboys and sheepherders think they have it tough now!
 
Makes me wonder how Lent got 6 member buy in on his off the wall proposal in a meeting without violating the open meeting law before hand.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-16-11 AT 09:53PM (MST)[p]This might have just fu**ed me over for the tag I was hoping on this year :(...even if it doesn't, that was total bullchit!
 
Not only did these clowns hose NDOW out of their budget and the public from their tags, but they also have screwed the state of Nevada from all the secondary money hunters provide (motels, gas, groceries, etc..).
 
Tags decreased 25% across the board? Except for the hunters that drew tags in the guided draw. I guess I should have applied in the guided draw.




BT
 
Yup! I feel it coming now.........another loser year in the drawings. Kali B tag here I come. Now norby, those restricted tags aren't much good without the guide around.
 
Every Commissioner who voted for the 25% reduction in proposed deer tag quotas should be removed from the Commission immediately. As evidenced by their vote, they are anti-hunting activists.

The biologist recommendations for allowable buck harrvest are conservative to begin with. There is no reason to reduce the Department proposed tag quota especially in Area 10 unless Commissioners want to ensure even more prey base for the lions and coyotes to further aggrandize the need for predator control.

Thousands of Nevada families have just been denied the opportunity to hunt deer and provide food for the table this year for NO reason. Not only does the Department lose revenue but the overall economy will suffer with lost sporting goods sales,gas,motel, food sales.

Those that aren't old enough to have hunted Nevada pre quota days don't appreciate the huge price Nevadans pay in lost opportunity to hunt every year. That is why it is so important to provide as much opportunity as possible to draw a tag. Conservation after all is wise use. Bucks can't be stockpiled and bucks don't sustain the growth of a deer population.

If enough of us write the Governor perhaps he will find the "just cause" to remove the Commissioners who voted for this. Get the tar and feathers.
 
rubymountaineer,

Thanks for one of the most well-written respones I've read on MM. Pehaps you could copy and paste it to the thread in the mule deer forum. There are actually people stating the commission has done something good with these cuts.
 
Where do I sign on to complain about these personal agenda commissioners?? Governor Sandoval's office? I can't stand personal agenda representatives!!
 
It appears as it is imperative that AB322 passes. This was sent to me earlier today which details some of the importance of this bill.

"Change within the composition of commissioners is the only solution here. The Senate Natural Resources Committee is to consider AB322 any day now. This three-fold bill completely pertains to wildlife issues and includes a provision which would disqualify the current Conservation Representative on the Wildlife Commission who is in no way qualified to hold that position. If this bill is sent to the Senate by the NR Committee and passes, the Governor can replace this commissioner with a qualified individual who will act in the best intentions of the state?s wildlife. Two more commissioners terms are up at the end of June and can be replaced then. Changing three of the commissioners will once again bring control of the commission back into the hands of those who want the best for wildlife. I implore you to email the Senators (listed below) on the Natural Resources Committee and urge them to support AB322."

"An email from you is critical in showing these Senators that their support of this bill is needed. This is a numbers game and I simply ask that you take the 90 seconds needed to send these folks an email stating your support for this bill. Last week, several of the commissioners who are threatened by the passage of this bill went to Carson and testified against it in order to protect their self interests."

Send your support of this bill to the following senators:
John Lee [email protected] (775) 684-1424
Mark Manendo [email protected] (775) 684-1442
David Parks [email protected] (775) 684-6504
Dean Rhoads [email protected] (775) 684-1481
Michael Roberson [email protected] (775) 684-6502
 
Vogler already returned my email. He said they used the Biologist facts and figures to make their decision. Are they senior Biologist, that can overide an educated Biologist recomendation? He said they do it for short term monetary gain. What a joke. Tony
 
I scanned the Crayola map and BS graphs they used. When I get a chance I'll post them so you can see. I'm surprise actually, that Vogler answered you. I figured they be getting hundreds. Sounds like they need more emails.
 
I think it was a good call. Our deer herds suck. We need to build the deer herds up, not raise quotas like suggested. Most people I hear complaining worry more about getting a deer tag than the deer population. Sure the deer herds and habitat are geting better slowly, let's let them adjust. Biologists can't play god all the time.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-17-11 AT 09:29PM (MST)[p]Ok>I think it was a good
>call. Our deer herds suck.
>We need to build the
>deer herds up, not raise
>quotas like suggested. Most people
>I hear complaining worry more
>about getting a deer tag
>than the deer population. Sure
>the deer herds and habitat
>are geting better slowly, let's
>let them adjust. Biologists can't
>play god all the time.




Edit: that just wasn't nice.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-17-11 AT 09:42PM (MST)[p]onthewall- too many bucks can hinder the growth of a deer herd, there is only so much habitat, and a buck eats just as much as a doe. Maybe you can explain?
 
OK boy and girls, here is the now infamous Crayola map. I think Lent did a nice job. Or maybe his grandkids did it.

8530scan0001.jpg



And here are his statewide charts. Don't ask what the lines mean because there is no legend.

1612scan0002.jpg


1197scan0003.jpg


3165scan0004.jpg


And even though these have a legend I still don't know what they show.
1514scan0005.jpg


2870scan0006.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON May-17-11 AT 11:59PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-17-11 AT 11:52?PM (MST)

On the map, the red shading is areas destined for 25% quota cuts and the blue areas are 10% quota cuts. Yellow looks like the test site. I would like to see the study Lent had Doctors Patrick and Ellen Maxon work on. In case anyone doesn't know, the moving average (dotted line)is used with time data to even out the peaks and valleys in the trends.

EDIT: Oops! Sorry, that is not what you were unsure of....
 
What Im not sure of is whether or not a wildlife biologist could prescribe me eyeglasses as easily as an optometrist can predict mule deer population dynamics.
 
Vulger just sent me another email. He said he has spent more time in the field than half the Bios combined. He said they took the advice of the guides. Then he rambled something about drinking Kool aid. Wow!
 
>I think it was a good
>call. Our deer herds suck.
>We need to build the
>deer herds up, not raise
>quotas like suggested. Most people
>I hear complaining worry more
>about getting a deer tag
>than the deer population. Sure
>the deer herds and habitat
>are geting better slowly, let's
>let them adjust. Biologists can't
>play god all the time.
>


I agree. In tne 80s hunting was excellent!
Now we have some one who thinks more about deer than elk.
I'm willing to give them a chance so that one day I might get more than one deer tag in a year. I remember all those big boys coming in to a water hole. I would like my kids to see that some day!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-18-11 AT 07:21PM (MST)[p]Kool Aid Kool Aid tastes great, glad I didn't drink any for many its to late. I have spent more time in the habitat than half of those bioligists combined. The deer are not there. Their model has a 20% margin of error and the population increased 1.8% and they raised the quota by ten percent? The guides and the people that know the units advised us. Hank



THIS IS ALL EMAILS BETWEEN VOLGER AND MYSELF
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 6:20:23 PM
Subject: Re: Tags







-----Original Message-----
From: hank vogler <[email protected]>
To: tbreinolds <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 5:12 pm
Subject: Re: Tags


Check the facts. We used their facts and figures. Short term monetary gain at the expense of the mule deer in this state makes little sense. Hank Vogler




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 4:51:12 PM
Subject: Tags

Just curious why the Commission cut tags 25 % despite trained Biologist recommendations?


You said it, thier facts and figures. I dont believe biologist are in it for the money. Tony Reinolds
 
Sure glad a Guy like that is representing ranching on the commission aren't you? He doesn't mention how much time in the habitat was spent pushing his sheep back through the fence.
 
Im guessing the guides already got their quota, and it wasn't cut. Then he said thats what the guides recomended? interesting.
 
What everyone needs to be aware from all of the information submitted at Saturday's Nevada Wildlife Commission meeting setting Mule Deer quotas was that over the last ten years Nevada's Mule Deer population has been relatively stable. While the graphs clearly show a decline from the peak of the late 1980's, we certainly didn't need any of these graphs to know that. However, as many of you have pointed out, that was not the issue. At Thursday's Commission meeting the majority of the Commission, led by Commissioners Lent and Raines, rolled out the new Mule Deer Policy P-28 which in its original form stated "Buck harvest will be reduced or eliminated in areas/units where populations are below objective population goals." This policy was immediately challenged by NDOW Acting Director Ken Mayer who demanded that the Commission produce the science that supported that statement. The Commission failed to respond! There are no science based studies that would support such a statement. Director Mayer has stated on numerous occasions that you can take the buck population down to three percent and they will still get the job done. According to policy 24, the Commission is required to manage the Mule Deer buck population to maintain a quality hunting experience which NDOW has done by averaging a post hunt buck to doe ratio exceeding 35 per 100 does. NDOW biologists Cox and Wasley indicated that due to increasing population trend over the last few years due to better precipitation as well as a growing buck to doe ratio, Nevada's Mule Deer herd could sustain an increase of 10 percent in buck tags. With this back drop, the Commission voted to reduce Mule Deer buck tags by 25% over NDOW's recommendations in all but 5 areas which were reduced by only 10%. What should be most troubling to everyone is that there was not one shred of evidence to support this reduction. No science and no facts. We sportsmen and sportswomen lost 3,374 Mule Deer tags to this outrageous decision. The equates to $675,000 in direct losses to NDOW from tag sales and matching Federal funds and an estimated $2 million to Nevada's rural economy. While tag sales and NDOW's budget should never be the basis to increase tags, it is relevant when there is absolutely no basis to reduce tags. Mule Deer hunters that support Nevada's Mule Deer wildlife resource should be outraged at this decision by the Nevada Wildlife Commission. It was baseless, arbitrary and capricious!

Michael K. McBeath, Commissioner
Nevada Board of Wildlife Commissioners
 
Here's another email out of many I've received on this matter. I don't know who the original author is, but I thought I'd post this for everyone to see. What a fiasco!



I just had someone forward this to me, so I thought I would share.

Subject: Fw: Deer vote facts - FW

People should really check their facts before sending these things out... Raine voted with McBeath on the final vote. The motion that passed was as amended by a motion made by Wallace... Wallace and Cavin voted on opposite sides of the final vote. Raine and Lent voted on opposite sides of the final vote. The Commission did not violate any policy, and cited a wide variety of scientific evidence including hundreds of graphs, charts, scientific documents with conflicting conclusions, and WAFWA publications that forced it to take the action it did to help preserve healthy deer herds in Nevada. True, the issue of funding was brought up by McBeath, and that did bring up speculation by a few Commissioners that some opposition against the cuts could be based on selling out long term deer herd health for short term cash gains. The action to reduce quotas to levels similar to the quota levels of a few years ago has also been widely supported by members of the public who understand the mule deer issue.

In their rush to bash the Commission, did anyone bother to mention that the Commission was genuinely worried about the health of the mule deer population? Did anyone bother to mention that the junior hunt quota actually increased? What about the fact that the proposed 2011 quota recommendation was about 12% higher than 2010 quota while the deer population was about flat (1.8% increase by NDOW statistics with a published +/- error factor of 20%).

The quota as set puts the quota about where it was a few years ago when the deer population was at a level estimated by NDOW to be similar to the current population, with similar buck to doe ratios.
 
The poor wittle commissioners being picked on. The public record will show who voted how. I have seen them in action before. What their intention or interest was that day, I can't say. Its still an insult to every biologist and even more so, every county advisory board who made their recommendations which were ignored. This commission is a laughing stock. I cannot wait until their reign is over.
 
Glad to see so many comments on this subject. I hope you folks are not just talking on here, but writing your letters to the Govenor, the men and women in Carson City, the AG's office, you can bet their was an open meeting law violation as so many agenda items were predertimined, and of course the wildlife commissioners.

Commissioner McBeath, The one voice on NWC, the sportsmen really have. Thanks for trying to stand up for what is right.

Alex
 
>
>Commissioner McBeath, The one voice on
>NWC, the sportsmen really have.
>Thanks for trying to stand
>up for what is right.
>
>
>Alex


I will second this comment.He has been a rock for a long time going against the grain of the commission. Thank you Mcbeath
 
NVB, McBeath has got to be tired, or a glutton for punishment, either way I and alot of others appreciate his fight.

I was glad to see his post above, those that attend their CAB's and the NWC meetings know what he is about. The others probably lump him in with the rest of commission which is farthest from the truth.

Alex
 
Alex, thank you for pointing that out. I have been busy this week and mostly monitoring this thread via smartphone so I completely missed Commissioner McBeath's post!

Commissioner McBeath, Thank you for posting and more importantly thank you for fighting hard. I have watched many of the commission meetings and always been impressed by the way you stand up to the others. Having served on a few boards over the years I can only imagine how hard that must be going to every meeting knowing you will likely be fighting the majority alone.

All I can say is there is hopefully some relief in sight but you will still have a very long tough fight ahead. Keep up the good work.
 
I would. Also point out that Commissioner McBeath is up for reappointment this summer. Governor Sandoval needs to hear we support him.
 
So you are saying NDOW's buck to doe ratio is 100% accurate and not +or - 15 to 20%
 
I don't post often but this is the same arrogance that is on display in our nations capital every day. People get a little power over others and assume that it came with some superior intellectual gift that "common" people don't have, so they need to protect us from ourselves. Getting pretty tired of it though.
Sent this to the commission and will shoot another to the Gov. and legislature. Who knows, if enough people vent to them they might get the message.

To: Wildlife Commissioner
Re: 25% Deer Quota Cut
The Boards recent 25% cut to Nevada deer quotas is a prime example of arrogance on the part on the Nevada Wildlife Commission. Sportsmen have been reminded time and again that the Quota process is consists of checks and balances to provide scientifically studied recommendations, reviewed by the County Advisory Boards and subjected to public comments with the final determination by the Wildlife Commission. This conservative management approach has successfully managed our deer herds through fires, drought, and habitat loss for many decades. Although the herd numbers have fluctuated during that time, the quality of Nevada?s mule deer hunting has not.
Now, we are asked to believe that those same program Biologists and Advisors are wrong. In fact it has been suggested that in addition to being wrong, they are greedy and they are being accused of attempting to achieve; ?Short term monetary gain at the expense of the mule deer? by the Commissions own Hank Vogler.
I intend to review the comments and actions of each member of the Wildlife Commission when the meeting minutes are posted to determine who honorably serves the sportsmen and wildlife of Nevada, and also to identify those who may have other, less noble interests so that I may share that information with Nevada?s sportsmen.
CB08
 
This may be lengthy but I hope to get it all out so everyone can understand my thoughts. This commission is the worst group we have ever seen in Nevada and they do not have the foggiest clue of mule deer or any other wildlife for that matter. They have an agenda and it is for ranching not wildlife the current commission should be called the cattleman's commission. They want to cut the buck tags to drive up the mule deer population, this doesn't work. Doe's drive the population. I can't believe I'm saying this but on this one thing I do want to see a reduction in tags not because I think it will drive our deer population higher but because I want more trophy ran units. This is a self serving want but I have tried for years to get a couple areas managed for trophy but we have to many opportunity county and state board members. I don't think the whole state needs this but would like to see some trophy units. The loss in revenue i could care less about. They should have supported increasing our elk herds by double and triple then they would have there revenue and we would have the elk we should have in Nevada but this would go against our cattlemen commission whoops I meant wildlife commission. Mike McBeth is one of the best commissioners I have seen in the many years I have watched ones come and go. I have missed the last four meeting as my kids have keep my too busy these days and I needed a break from fighting the idiots!! I hope the Governor will finally remove them but don't count on it. I have sent many emails to him and have never got one response back from him. Just my two cents sorry for so lengthy.
 
Bearman +1 on most of what you say.
For the first time I actually read the entire meeting minutes for the February Commision meeting. What it reveals is a mish-mash of rancher speak under a thin disguise of wildlife conservation. I actually wanted to make a list of how many times Mcbeath and his few other reasonable Commissioners attempted to stop the steamroller, but it appears that it happens every time. 5-3 votes against are the norm.
The County boards fared no better, the Commission accepts their reccomendations, says thanks, and then does whatever the hell they want to. The Biologists shared a similar fate.
Sportsmen's and wildlifes needs are a joke to these folks.
CB08
 
"a mish-mash of rancher speak under a thin disguise of wildlife conservation." Thats a very accurate comment. I hope you don't mind if I use that one myself.
 
NVB, Feel free to do so......

OK, I went back to the meeting minutes and tabulated which Commissioners were "active" in the meeting. I judged them active when they did more than simply vote, call to order, or second on agenda items. Here is what I found through the 32 agenda items;
Commissioner Raine representing sportsmen was active 18 times
Commissioner Lent representing sportsmen was active 15 times
Commissioner Capurro representing conservation was active 15 times
Commissioner Mcbeath representing sportsmen was active 13 times
Commissioner Vogler representing ranching was active 9 times
Commissioner Howell representing sportsmen was active 7 times
Commissioner Cavin representing sportsmen was active 4 times
Commissioner Shrum representing general public was active 3 times
Commissioner Wallace representing farming was active 1 time

Pretty ugly yes? Apparently only 5 Commissioners are really needed becuase they are the only ones involved in the process. Why take the appointment if you are unwilling to participate?
When 5 Commisioners speak up 70 times versus 4 commissioners speaking up 15 times there is a imbalace in the discussion and it will be reflected in the results. 56% commisioners doing 82% of the work.
And here might be the real problem, 2 of the "duds" are sportsmen representitives. Given the fact that many of the votes are 5-3, it would be nice if they could at least wake up and hear the issues. The Raine, Capurro, Lent tag team was relentless on Mcbeath and shot him down repeatedly.
A statement was made that the Commissioners should ride along with CO's and speak with hunters to gauge their views (Mcbeath?), not a word was spoken about actually doing just that. What does that say?
Sorry for the length,
CB08
 

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