Very good podcast.

Robiland

Robiland

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Saving an Icon of the West, Mule Deer with Professor Brock McMillan | Big Hunt Guys | Ep. 111

Podcast Episode · Big Hunt Guys · 03/14/2024 · 1h 19m
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This is very interesting. Probably the best pod cast I've ever listened to. All of it is great, but the last 15-20 minutes or so were fantastic, talking about utah deer herds and what this biologist thinks we should be doing, and not always what the government/legislators or special interest groups. Listen up and tell us what you think.

My favorite part was talking about the deer in 80's vs now and buck to doe ratios and how we have it all wrong now. The more bucks per does is worse for the herd. Henry's would be a prime example.

Anyways, really got me thinking! Listen up!
 
Thanks for posting this podcast, it was a good listen.
A lot of information that he has presented in the rac meetings lately, was talked about in that podcast. We need more guys to hear and think about these studies.
 
I dont normally listen to podcasts but I listened to this the whole way through. Very interesting information. Unfortunately, a lot of the predator management will be very hard to implement due to the nature of the animal lovers these days.

It does make you stop for a minute and think/wonder if the deer numbers during the heydays were way higher than the carrying capacity of the land actually was and we are seeing a full swing back to those numbers.

Playing God with animals certainly has its consequences.
 
People need to listen to this podcast!

Bessy, friggin listen to it!!!!

The imbalance between what hunters THINK is the reality and what is actually the reality is illustrated very well in this. It's sad to think how badly idiotic expectations have negatively impacted actual herd management and how we govern hunters.
 
So many interesting facts in there. Too bad a bunch of the naysayers don’t trust the biologists…fake herd counts, money grabbing DWR, and other conspiracies are easier to believe than low buck:doe ratios actually being GOOD for herd growth..
 
Interesting pod cast..I definitely don't agree with all that was said..knocking off our buck population to 8 or 9 bucks a hundred doe's does not sound good to me..BUT I'm not a biologist.. I've never been a fan of this opportunitist mind set but that's just my way of thinking... Carry on
 
yoteduster said:
Interesting pod cast..I definitely don't agree with all that was said..knocking off our buck population to 8 or 9 bucks a hundred doe's does not sound good to me..BUT I'm not a biologist.. I've never been a fan of this opportunitist mind set but that's just my way of thinking... Carry on
Click to expand...
8-9 bucks per thousand does is awesome!
IF we had four million does living in our State!!
 
If it were as simple as reducing the buck doe ratio then I’m pretty confident that mule deer would not be in decline. I don’t buy that BS for one second. At one point the biologist said something about “death by a thousand cuts” or something to that effect, which is probably a lot more truthful.
 
Brock was clear he didn’t like doing these types of sit down recorded conversations for everyone to hear as people will focus on one thing and make a mountain out of a mole hill and not take the whole big picture in.

Brock 100% did NOT argue we should reduce our buck to doe ratio to 9:100 statewide. He said that was the baseline of what they’d need for the herd to be productive. He did suggest the herd would be more productive at 9:100 than at 40:100, but that wasn’t his reasoning for depressed state of mule deer.

He said it is NOT buck:doe ratio, it is NOT predators, it is NOT habitat, it is NOT encroachment, and NOT a whole bunch of other things. It’s all of them combined. And different areas of the state are suffering from different levels in each of these.

This was simply the most informative biological discussion on elk and deer I’ve ever listened to. People need to listen to it. It will absolutely challenge some deep held beliefs by people, but it looks like he’s got the receipts.
 
I am about 20 min. in to it and it has been exceptional!
I love how “ I have never seen a Cactus head Elk or Whitetail, but there are a lot of Muley Cactusheads in the Paunsagunt Unit, why is that?”.
No one dare answered…..
 
Vanilla said:
Brock was clear he didn’t like doing these types of sit down recorded conversations for everyone to hear as people will focus on one thing and make a mountain out of a mole hill and not take the whole big picture in.

Brock 100% did NOT argue we should reduce our buck to doe ratio to 9:100 statewide. He said that was the baseline of what they’d need for the herd to be productive. He did suggest the herd would be more productive at 9:100 than at 40:100, but that wasn’t his reasoning for depressed state of mule deer.

He said it is NOT buck:doe ratio, it is NOT predators, it is NOT habitat, it is NOT encroachment, and NOT a whole bunch of other things. It’s all of them combined. And different areas of the state are suffering from different levels in each of these.
Click to expand...
But When I Claimed It Was A Big Combination Of Things Many Years Ago You Told Me I Was Full Of BS!

Funny How You'll Listen To Some People Isn't It Niller?

Vanilla said:
This was simply the most informative biological discussion on elk and deer I’ve ever listened to. People need to listen to it. It will absolutely challenge some deep held beliefs by people, but it looks like he’s got the receipts.
Click to expand...
 
“And different areas of the state are suffering from different levels in each of these.”

Like Unit Management……… Ha….. how’s that working? Like I said, when you “insist” they shove a boot up your ass………
 
Hey Lumpy!

It's Sounded Good Because They Was Watching What KALI-RADO Was Doing!

How's That KALI-RADO Unit Management Working Just About Now?

Working Well!

They Proved It Could Work & Help!

They Also Proved People That Started It Could Also FRICK It Up!
 
There's Been Some Unit Management!

Some Units Managed For More Permits That Equal More Money With ABSO-F'N-LUTELY No Care For The Game Herd Itself!
 
elkassassin said:
But When I Claimed It Was A Big Combination Of Things Many Years Ago You Told Me I Was Full Of BS!

Funny How You'll Listen To Some People Isn't It Niller?
Click to expand...

FALSE!

I said the things YOU mentioned were BS. you have never read nor will you ever read anything from me saying it is not a combination of factors. I just happen to think the model of truck one drives or the color of one’s shirt has nothing to do with deer herd health.

But if you actually listen to this guy talk, you’ll hear many things that do impact deer herd health. You won’t like some things he says bessy. You should listen! That is if you actually want to be educated on the topic instead of worrying about regulating how many knots someone ties on their boots before hitting the trail.
 
Not FALSE At All!

50+ Years Before Somebody Wants To Try Something That Might Work!

But Don't Worry Niller!

When All Game Becomes EXTINCT You'll Still Have Your LL & Still Be Able To Wear Your Favorite High Dollar Camo Loin Cloth Even When There Ain't A GAWD-DAMNED Thing Left To Hunt!

Just Think!

In Your Own Mind You'll Still Be King Of The Hill!



Vanilla said:
FALSE!

I said the things YOU mentioned were BS. you have never read nor will you ever read anything from me saying it is not a combination of factors. I just happen to think the model of truck one drives or the color of one’s shirt has nothing to do with deer herd health.

But if you actually listen to this guy talk, you’ll hear many things that do impact deer herd health. You won’t like some things he says bessy. You should listen! That is if you actually want to be educated on the topic instead of worrying about regulating how many knots someone ties on their boots before hitting the trail.
Click to expand...
 
Loin cloth is blaze orange. I already told you that.

Go educate yourself bessy. What could it hurt? (Other than your pride when you realize how wrong you’ve been?)
 
Me Saying For Decades It's A Big Combination Of Issues Must Really Hurt Huh Niller?

Funny How You'll Listen To Somebody-else?

Carry On With Your BULLSSSHITT!

Vanilla said:
Loin cloth is blaze orange. I already told you that.

Go educate yourself bessy. What could it hurt? (Other than your pride when you realize how wrong you’ve been?)
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
Me Saying For Decades It's A Big Combination Of Issues Must Really Hurt Huh Niller?

Funny How You'll Listen To Somebody-else?

Carry On With Your BULLSSSHITT!
Click to expand...

What does limiting equipment to recurves, flintlocks, and 4x scopes on a rifle have to do with herd health?

What does trespassing or riding a SxS have to do with herd productivity?

What about camo clothing or spotting scopes will make a mama deer more healthy while growing a baby deer in her womb and then birthing that baby deer?

Those three questions just covered over half of your “combination of issues” you continue to yap about.

You’re not serious about any of this. But guys like the dudes on the podcast are. That’s why people listen to them and not you.
 
Vanilla said:
What does limiting equipment to recurves, flintlocks, and 4x scopes on a rifle have to do with herd health?
Click to expand...
Wasn't Me That took High Powered Scopes Off Of Muzzleloaders Now Was It?

I'll Refresh Your Short Memory:

I Said If We're Gonna Take,Let's Take Equally From All 3 Weapon Types!
Vanilla said:
What does trespassing or riding a SxS have to do with herd productivity?
Click to expand...
Guess you've Never Seen Any Illegal Wheeler Trails Blazed In This State,Open Your GAWD-DAMNED Blind Eyes!
Vanilla said:
What about camo clothing or spotting scopes will make a mama deer more healthy while growing a baby deer in her womb and then birthing that baby deer?
Click to expand...
It Was You Whining About Not Wanting To Give Up Any Of Your High Dollar Camo
Vanilla said:
Those three questions just covered over half of your “combination of issues” you continue to yap about.
Click to expand...
No,You Just BAWLED About The Ones You Don't Like The Most!
Vanilla said:
You’re not serious about any of this. But guys like the dudes on the podcast are. That’s why people listen to them and not you.
Click to expand...
You're A SMART SUM BITTCH Now I Take It After Listening To Them?

You Should Have All Hunting Fixed Within One Year!

GIT-R-F'N-DONE!
 
I Listened To It Before you Did!

And you Act Like It Took Somebody 50+ Years To Say What Was Said!

At The Rate You're Helping Fix The Game Herds Everything Oughta Be Perfect In A Few 1,000 More Years!



Vanilla said:
Just listen to it. What are you afraid of? That you might actually learn something?

I know I sure did!
Click to expand...
 
I guess you won’t learn something.

Can’t say I’m shocked!

Your stubborn butt would kill every deer in this state to be right! Good news, your desires have us well on the way.
 
Notta!

I Know What It Once Was!

I Know What It Is Today!

Just Keep The STATUS/QUO Management That's Been Getting Worse For 5+ Decades!

But Don't Worry!

You'll Still Have Your PISSCUTTER Permit!





Vanilla said:
I guess you won’t learn something.

Can’t say I’m shocked!

Your stubborn butt would kill every deer in this state to be right! Good news, your desires have us well on the way.
Click to expand...
 
If you think that podcast advocates for the status quo, then you didn’t listen.

Go on with your tag cuts. I’m sure if we just keep slicing, EVENTUALLY it ought to finish the job.
 
Wasn't Me That Cut The Tags!

But Do Some Deep Thinkin Niller!

I Know's It's Hard For You, but THINK!

Most People Are Claiming a 70% Loss Of Game From The 2022-2023 Winter!

Were Tags Cut By 70%?

I'll Be Waiting For The Worlds BEST Answer From The Guy That Knows Every-F'N-thing Already!

PONY-Up!

Vanilla said:
If you think that podcast advocates for the status quo, then you didn’t listen.

Go on with your tag cuts. I’m sure if we just keep slicing, EVENTUALLY it ought to finish the job.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
Wasn't Me That Cut The Tags!

But Do Some Deep Thinkin Niller!

I Know's It's Hard For You, but THINK!

Most People Are Claiming a 70% Loss Of Game From The 2022-2023 Winter!

Were Tags Cut By 70%?

I'll Be Waiting For The Worlds BEST Answer From The Guy That Knows Every-F'N-thing Already!

PONY-Up!
Click to expand...
That 70 percent was a very isolated area, if it was really that much after all. The area I hunted, probably had a 70 percent increase. Just about every one of the 400+ does I saw had twin fawns.
 
Very good listen. This guy knows stuff and has solid answers for sure. The unit to unit limiting factors, predator levels and fat levels over winter etc was very interesting. Solid dude, no bs.
 
I Listened & I Never Said Any Of It Was Bad!

Just Sayin For The UMPTEENTH F'N Time The BUCK TO DOE BS Management Is The Very Worst Way Of Management That Was Ever DREMPT Up!

Robiland Speaking: Hey Niller,You Notice Our Deer Numbers Are Down?

Niller:That's What They Say, So I'll Believe Anybody That Says Anything,Well Almost,We Might Only have a 100 Head Left In The One Unit But BY GAWD There's 7 PISSCUTTER Bucks Amongst Them,They Need To Issue More Tags So We Can Kill Everyone Of Them!

Ya,That'll Surely Fix It!





Robiland said:
I think it's safe to say that either Elksass didn't listen or he got hijacked by the Ole Texas boy!
Click to expand...
 
ridgetops said:
That 70 percent was a very isolated area, if it was really that much after all. The area I hunted, probably had a 70 percent increase. Just about every one of the 400+ does I saw had twin fawns.
Click to expand...

Don’t confuse him with facts, Ridge. Let him believe that we lost 70% of our deer last year so he can pimp his idea for 3,000 deer tags statewide. That will fix it!!

And yes, Bessy. We have cut 70% of the deer tags from back in your golden era. You ought to hear what the really smart guy that actually knows what he’s talking about says about that! Oh yeah, you listened BEFORE I DID!!!! Clearly understood it well too.

Bless your heart.
 
OK KING Niller:

What Did Amaze You In This Podcast?

The Isn't New News!

For You Claiming You're The Worlds Smartest On Deer Management Forever & You Think Everything In The Podcast Is All New News?

You're Wrong!

If I Remember Right The Guy/Brock Wants To Double The Amount Of Tags On Your Favorite Unit!

Ya,GET-R-F-N-DONE!

That's One Place I Won't Be,ENJOY!

Now I Agree With Most Of What Was Said,But It Ain't All New News!

Where I Don't Agree On What He Said is When He'd Said He'd Like To See BUCK TO DOE RATIO'S at 5 Bucks Per 100 Does!

GET F'N REAL!

TOTAL F'N BULLSSHITT Right There!

So We Shoot The Herd Down To 5 Bucks Per 100 Does!

Fall/Winter Rolls Around,The Bucks Are Wore Down To Nothing & We Lose Quite A Few Bucks!

They're Wore Out & Laid Up!

Now Don't Believe What I'm Gonna Mention Next!

You Talk With Seasoned Lion Hunters,Not The Modern Day PUNK-ASS Lion Hunters!

Them Wore Out Bucks Ain't Got Much Left In Them!

It's Way Easier For A Lion To Kill A Buck That Time Of year Than Any Other Big Game Animal Around!

So?

We're Down To 5 Bucks Per 100 Does!

The Lions Kill A Few Of Them!

The Coyotes Kill A Few Of Them!

A Few Are Poached!

Some Are So Weak They Don't Survive!

Winter Conditions Might Take A Few Of Them Out!

Some Will Get Caught In Fences & Die!

Some Will Get Hit On The Roadways!

This List Is Way Bigger Than What I'm Gonna Post,I Posted Some Of The Issues!

So Come Spring Time,How Many Bucks We Got Left If We Were Down To 8-9 Bucks Per 100 Does Post Season?

I Totally Disagree With His 5 Bucks Per 100 Does Management & I Don't Give A FF Who Knows It!

I Remembering Him/Them Mentioning What He Thought Was The Biggest Factor In OUR PISS POOR DEER HERD OF TODAY & He said It Was A Combination Of Different/Several Things,Have I Not Said That Myself For 50+ Years Now?

But Since Somebody-else Said It,KING Niller Sucks The Hook Clear To The Gills!

We Went To How Many Units How Many Years Ago?

So We Could Better Manage Game?

I Also Remember Him Saying What In No Doubt Got You More Orgasmic Than Anything KING Niller:

MORE TAGS!

MORE TAGS!

MORE TAGS!

Double The Tags On Your Favorite Unit KING Niller!

The PUMPKINS Might Be Smaller This Year But By GAWD If They Double The Tags You'll Be Right In The F'N Middle Of What You Asked For!

I'll Argue With Him Just A Little On Fires As Well!

I'm Not Against Fires!

But On The South Slope For The Most Part The Deer Do Better For A Couple Years And By About Year 3-4 The Good Created Peters Out,Haven't Seen Them Do Great Things For 12-15 Years Here,But Maybe That's Different In Other Areas!

As Smart As DRATS Are They Just Can't Seem To Bring The Deer Herd Back Much With All The PISS POOR MANAGEMENT We've Tried Over Many Decades!

Hopefully They Double Or Even Triple The Tag Numbers On Your Favorite Deer Unit KING Niller!

I Promise You I Won't Be There!

I Might Be A Dumb MF'ER!

But I Ain't That F'N STUPID!






Vanilla said:
Don’t confuse him with facts, Ridge. Let him believe that we lost 70% of our deer last year so he can pimp his idea for 3,000 deer tags statewide. That will fix it!!

And yes, Bessy. We have cut 70% of the deer tags from back in your golden era. You ought to hear what the really smart guy that actually knows what he’s talking about says about that! Oh yeah, you listened BEFORE I DID!!!! Clearly understood it well too.

Bless your heart.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
elkassassin said:
OK KING Niller:

What Did Amaze You In This Podcast?

The Isn't New News!

For You Claiming You're The Worlds Smartest On Deer Management Forever & You Think Everything In The Podcast Is All New News?

You're Wrong!

If I Remember Right The Guy/Brock Wants To Double The Amount Of Tags On Your Favorite Unit!

Ya,GET-R-F-N-DONE!

That's One Place I Won't Be,ENJOY!

Now I Agree With Most Of What Was Said,But It Ain't All New News!

Where I Don't Agree On What He Said is When He'd Said He'd Like To See BUCK TO DOE RATIO'S at 5 Bucks Per 100 Does!

GET F'N REAL!

TOTAL F'N BULLSSHITT Right There!

So We Shoot The Herd Down To 5 Bucks Per 100 Does!

Fall/Winter Rolls Around,The Bucks Are Wore Down To Nothing & We Lose Quite A Few Bucks!

They're Wore Out & Laid Up!

Now Don't Believe What I'm Gonna Mention Next!

You Talk With Seasoned Lion Hunters,Not The Modern Day PUNK-ASS Lion Hunters!

Them Wore Out Bucks Ain't Got Much Left In Them!

It's Way Easier For A Lion To Kill A Buck That Time Of year Than Any Other Big Game Animal Around!

So?

We're Down To 5 Bucks Per 100 Does!

The Lions Kill A Few Of Them!

The Coyotes Kill A Few Of Them!

A Few Are Poached!

Some Are So Weak They Don't Survive!

Winter Conditions Might Take A Few Of Them Out!

Some Will Get Caught In Fences & Die!

Some Will Get Hit On The Roadways!

This List Is Way Bigger Than What I'm Gonna Post,I Posted Some Of The Issues!

So Come Spring Time,How Many Bucks We Got Left If We Were Down To 5 Bucks Per 100 Does Post Season?

I Totally Disagree With His 5 Bucks Per 100 Does Management & I Don't Give A FF Who Knows It!

I Remembering Him/Them Mentioning What He Thought Was The Biggest Factor In OUR PISS POOR DEER HERD OF TODAY & He said It Was A Combination Of Different/Several Things,Have I Not Said That Myself For 50+ Years Now?

But Since Somebody-else Said It,KING Niller Sucks The Hook Clear To The Gills!

We Went To How Many Units How Many Years Ago?

So We Could Better Manage Game?

I Also Remember Him Saying What In No Doubt Got You More Orgasmic Than Anything KING Niller:

MORE TAGS!

MORE TAGS!

MORE TAGS!

Double The Tags On Your Favorite Unit KING Niller!

The PUMPKINS Might Be Smaller This Year But By GAWD If They Double The Tags You'll Be Right In The F'N Middle Of What You Asked For!

I'll Argue With Him Just A Little On Fires As Well!

I'm Not Against Fires!

But On The South Slope For The Most Part The Deer Do Better For A Couple Years And By About Year 3-4 The Good Created Peters Out,Haven't Seen Them Do Great Things For 12-15 Years Here,But Maybe That's Different In Other Areas!

As Smart As DRATS Are They Just Can't Seem To Bring The Deer Herd Back Much With All The PISS POOR MANAGEMENT We've Tried Over Many Decades!

Hopefully They Double Or Even Triple The Tag Numbers On Your Favorite Deer Unit KING Niller!

I Promise You I Won't Be There!

I Might Be A Dumb MF'ER!

But I Ain't That F'N STUPID!
Click to expand...
I don't recall he saying he WANTED 5:100. I may be wrong. I do remember him saying 9-10/100. But if it really would potentially double the herd in 5 years with optimal weather, why not? Because cutting Tags and weapon restrictions are not doing it. It makes me look at the Henries and wonder why that herd isn't exploding? What is it? 45 or 50 bucks per 100 does? Just makes you wonder.....🤔🤔🤔
 
From a purely unscientific observation…… I’ve seen, with my own lying eyes, the difference in outcome between tag reduction management and closing whole units to hunting for five years management.

My own unscientific conclusion, now days…. after witnessing the two different attempts at herd growth for the last 45 years…….. I’m of the opinion that tag reductions, regardless of the size of the reduction, is not an effective management strategy. Unit closures, especially for those that last for 5 years, have increased the over all population of the unit. Further I would put all units in a 20 year cycle, 15 years of hunting followed by another 5 year closure. That would mean 3/4 of the units in the State being hunted and 1/4 of the Units would be under closure and recovery measures on any give year.

I now believe rotating Unit closures, coupled with addressing/focusing on the other unique needs of each Unit being addressed, is the answer to saving public land mule populations/hunting.

I was fortunate enough to be able to visit with both Dr. McMillan and Dr. Larsen when they were doing a fawn survival study on the Monroe a number of years ago. If I ever have occasion to see Dr. McMillan again I may ask his opinion on my opinion. 😁 I’ve found him to be politely forthcoming.
 
One Of The Other guys Mention the 5 Bucks Per 100 Does & Brock Did Mention 8-9 Robi,You're Right!

But That's All you Wanna See Left At That Time Of Year Is 8-9?

Let's Think About That A Little!



Robiland said:
I don't recall he saying he WANTED 5:100. I may be wrong. I do remember him saying 9-10/100. But if it really would potentially double the herd in 5 years with optimal weather, why not? Because cutting Tags and weapon restrictions are not doing it. It makes me look at the Henries and wonder why that herd isn't exploding? What is it? 45 or 50 bucks per 100 does? Just makes you wonder.....🤔🤔🤔
Click to expand...
 
How'd you Ever Listen To A Podcast That Was An Hour Or So Long And Then To SUCK It In Like Your Bible!

You'd Fit Right In With The DWR & You Could Babble Your BS Too!

Now We Are Worried About The Space A Buck/Or Bucks Take Up On The GAWD-DAMNED Landscape!

GFC!

WE MUST HAVE TOO MANY OF THEM!

Kill All Bucks,They're Eating Other Animals Feed!

Take Em Down To 8-9 Per 100 & Give Niller His Wish On More Tags With Less Bucks!

PERFECT DRATville Mentality At It's Best Right There!


Vanilla said:
Too long, didn’t read.

But the first few lines showed your listening comprehension is about the same as your reading comprehension here on the forum.
Click to expand...
 
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Bessy…your meds! Don’t forget the meds. You said I wouldn’t like seeing you mad. It’s quite entertaining actually!

I like learning from people that are educated and have actual information and data to back up what they’re saying. These types teach me things all the time. It’s refreshing for people to talk about things intelligently, rather than most of what we see here.
 
And you SUCK It To The Gills Thinking It's All New NEWS!

And Because Somebody-Else Said...........!

GEEZUS!

HINT: It's Not!

But To Think In Today's World Of Mule Deer Buck Numbers In This State That There's Too Many & Taking Up Too Much Space?

GIVE ME A F'N Break!
 
Right On Ridge!

Another Thing I Kinda Laugh At Is The Buck Reaching His Potential By Age 4-5!

Not Saying It Doesn't Happen!

But Prove How Many Bucks Lived Past Age 5 To See If 5 Was MAX Potential!

HINT For Niller:

There's So Few Of Bucks That Make It Past Age 5 They Can't Even Do A Study On It In This State!



ridgetops said:
One thing I disagree with what he was saying about genetics. I believe genetics play a bigger part in big antlers than what he believes.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
But To Think In Today's World Of Mule Deer Buck Numbers In This State That There's Too Many & Taking Up Too Much Space?
Click to expand...

That’s not actually what was said. But like Tristate, you’re trying to monopolize a discussion and distract from something you don’t want others to find out about.

Put the keyboard Bessy, go take your meds, and let someone else have a turn.

My advice is for everyone to listen to that podcast. It’s pretty fascinating and I learned some interesting things in it. Don’t listen to what Bessie’s saying is in it. Like this below, it’s completely fabricated.

elkassassin said:
Another Thing I Kinda Laugh At Is The Buck Reaching His Potential By Age 4-5!

Not Saying It Doesn't Happen!
Click to expand...

Go listen and try again Trista…I mean, Bessy.
 
And The Part That Won't Sink In To Most & Niller!

Back In The Banner Days Of Mule Deer It Wasn't A Big Deal If Some 2 Points Were Doing Some Breeding!

Them 2 Points That DWARFED These PISSCUTTER 2 Points Of Today Were Packing Good Genetics For The Most Part!

You Can't Say That Today!

We Do Deer Counts Every Fall & When The Spike Fawn Is Breeding Mama That's Not Good Genetics!

ridgetops said:
One thing I disagree with what he was saying about genetics. I believe genetics play a bigger part in big antlers than what he believes.
Click to expand...
 
Makes You SMARTER Than You Thought You Already Was!

Like I Said!

I Hope You & Brock Get Your F'N Wish!

Double The Tags On Your Favorite Unit!

I DON'T F'N Care!

I Won't Be There!

The Only Advantage You'll Have Is The PUMPKINS Will Be Smaller This Year!

Double The Numbers Though!

Vanilla said:
That’s not actually what was said. But like Tristate, you’re trying to monopolize a discussion and distract from something you don’t want others to find out about.

Put the keyboard Bessy, go take your meds, and let someone else have a turn.

My advice is for everyone to listen to that podcast. It’s pretty fascinating and I learned some interesting things in it. Don’t listen to what Bessie’s saying is in it. Like this below, it’s completely fabricated.



Go listen and try again Trista…I mean, Bessy.
Click to expand...
 
And One More Thing Niller!

For The Love Of God & The Management Of The DRATville Deer Herd Make Sure You Shoot A PISSCUTTER!

You Get Him Out Of The Way For More Space!

And He Won't Be Eating Anything More!
 
An old fashion bobacatbess melt down. I’ve missed those.

But really, people should go listen and decide for themselves how they feel about it. Not everything stated in this comported with my view of the world, but I’m smart enough to realize there are people smarter than me, so I’m willing to listen to them. Don’t get distracted by loud yelling and complete misrepresentations. Just go listen for yourself.

My favorite quote of the podcast, when asked about all the “study areas” and proposals they brought up last year:

Best quote of this podcast:

“I’m not against trying them, but if we are going to try stuff, let’s try the one that biology says will work.”
 
Vanilla said:
“I’m not against trying them, but if we are going to try stuff, let’s try the one that biology says will work.”
Click to expand...
I have a lot of respect for Dr. McMillan. However, I’m not sure what he means in this quote.

Now I’m going to have to watch the video…… My specific interest is; if biology says it will work, why aren’t we already doing it? Is the bureaucracy resistant or the public or both?

Maybe I’ll get the answer from the video.
 
Politics.
He stated clearly that there must be a mass removal of Cats and Bears.
We MUST get Cats and Bears added to the Coyote Bounty Program!!
 
MrShane said:
Politics.
He stated clearly that there must be a mass removal of Cats and Bears.
We MUST get Cats and Bears added to the Coyote Bounty Program!!
Click to expand...
I made a call to a gentleman in Southern Utah when the cougar harvest regulations were changed. I was curious about the effectiveness of a bounty dollars offered for cougars by a livestock group in that part of the State. I was told the bounty was $1,500.00 and very very few people had shown any interest. What cougars had been killed and turned in for the bounty had been killed by people who had stumbled on them rather than specifically target them. His opinion was people don’t care enough, at $1,500.00, to hunt them in any sort of aggressive way.

I was shocked……. but I know the gentleman well enough and he is a person of high regard by many on MM and the hunting community. I believe him. You could call the DWR biologist out of Cedar City, I would guess he would know how effective the $1,500.00 has been and see if it is still being offered.

So…….. if true, I’m not sure a coyote type bounty will get it done. I’m now beginning to think the State needs to hire professional hunters, like they do for coyote control……. too get the cougar population under control. Bears control may be possible through more tags for sport hunting……. might still be too early to tell with the bears. If increasing sport hunting tags doesn’t do it, professions should be hired to do that job too…….. and the sooner the better as far as I’m concerned.
 
I respect his views. He verifies earlier studies and takes them further. The data they are collecting is amazing as far as I'm concerned.
It's pretty apparent from some on here that that they have a hard time accepting that data.
I'm also pretty sure he has had his time in the RAC/WB process to try and sway policy.
So who is it that's not listening? DWR, Legislature, or general public?
 
Vanilla said:
An old fashion bobacatbess melt down. I’ve missed those.

But really, people should go listen and decide for themselves how they feel about it. Not everything stated in this comported with my view of the world, but I’m smart enough to realize there are people smarter than me, so I’m willing to listen to them. Don’t get distracted by loud yelling and complete misrepresentations. Just go listen for yourself.

My favorite quote of the podcast, when asked about all the “study areas” and proposals they brought up last year:

Best quote of this podcast:

“I’m not against trying them, but if we are going to try stuff, let’s try the one that biology says will work.”Would That Also Be Known As We Don't Need To Do Any More STUPID SSHITT?
Click to expand...
 
middlefork said:
I respect his views. He verifies earlier studies and takes them further. The data they are collecting is amazing as far as I'm concerned.
It's pretty apparent from some on here that that they have a hard time accepting that data.
I'm also pretty sure he has had his time in the RAC/WB process to try and sway policy.
So who is it that's not listening? DWR, Legislature, or general public?
Click to expand...
I’ve never seen him at any public Wildlife Board or RAC meeting but I haven’t been to any for a number of years.

These “research professionals” seem to try to keep their distance when it comes to public meetings. They are hired by different entities to research and articulate their findings in written reports and they seem to try to stay above the fray, at least that’s how it’s seemed to me.
 
Hey Lumpy?

You Got Any Units Down Your Way That Needs The Tags Doubled?

2lumpy said:
I’ve never seen him at any public Wildlife Board or RAC meeting but I haven’t been to any for a number of years.

These “research professionals” seem to try to keep their distance when it comes to public meetings. They are hired by different entities to research and articulate their findings in written reports and they seem to try to stay above the fray, at least that’s how it’s seemed to me.
Click to expand...
 
I'm Glad The Fish Were Biting A Little!

Not F'N One Of Them Argued With Me When I Released Them!

Unlike Dealing With The KING Niller!
 
As low as the population has gotten on the units around me, I’m not sure if raising or lower the number of tags would change much. Because…………. there are not that many deer, male or female, left. With the efficiency of the hunters now days, I believe there are only X number of bucks to kill and when we are able to kill 90% of them……… with either 1,000 tag holders or with 2,000 tag holders, it’s changes the hunt success ratio, but it don’t change the harvest number, in any significant way.

So…….. doubling the tags won’t kill many more deer.

We are killing nearly every yearly buck already. The only hope for any deer harvest, every fall, is praying for fawn survival from the previous June, to give hunters a few hundred yearling bucks to shoot the following fall. We aren’t carried over hardly any bucks, each fall, for the last 50 years. Combine hunter efficiency with extremely low female numbers, there simply are not that may yearlings to kill on any unit around me. So the number of tags issued hardly matters at all anymore

Does that make any sense?
 
elkassassin said:
Hey Lumpy?

You Got Any Units Down Your Way That Needs The Tags Doubled?
Click to expand...
As low as the population has gotten on the units around me, I’m not sure if raising or lower the number of tags would change much. Because…………. there are not that many deer, male or female, left. With the efficiency of the hunters now days, I believe there are only X number of bucks to kill and when we are able to kill 90% of them……… with either 1,000 tag holders or with 2,000 tag holders, it’s changes the hunt success ratio, but it don’t change the harvest number, in any significant way.

So…….. doubling the tags won’t kill many more deer.

We are killing nearly every yearly buck already. The only hope for any deer harvest, every fall, is praying for fawn survival from the previous June, to give hunters a few hundred yearling bucks to shoot the following fall. We aren’t carried over hardly any bucks, each fall, for the last 50 years. Combine hunter efficiency with extremely low female numbers, there simply are not that many yearlings to kill on any unit around me. So the number of tags issued hardly matters at all anymore. That’s my opinion, for what it’s worth.

Does that make any sense?
 
2lumpy said:
As low as the population has gotten on the units around me, I’m not sure if raising or lower the number of tags would change much. Because…………. there are not that many deer, male or female, left. With the efficiency of the hunters now days, I believe there are only X number of bucks to kill and when we are able to kill 90% of them……… with either 1,000 tag holders or with 2,000 tag holders, it’s changes the hunt success ratio, but it don’t change the harvest number, in any significant way.

So…….. doubling the tags won’t kill many more deer.

We are killing nearly every yearly buck already. The only hope for any deer harvest, every fall, is praying for fawn survival from the previous June, to give hunters a few hundred yearling bucks to shoot the following fall. We aren’t carried over hardly any bucks, each fall, for the last 50 years. Combine hunter efficiency with extremely low female numbers, there simply are not that may yearlings to kill on any unit around me. So the number of tags issued hardly matters at all anymore

Does that make any sense?Ya It Does!
Click to expand...
Does that make any sense?Ya It Does!

But In The podcast That Niller Is So Proud Of They Claim The More Bucks We Shoot The Better The Hunting Will Be!

They Claim Them Bucks That Make It Through Are Just Taking Up Landscape & Eating Food On That Landscape!

Funny How Back In The Banner Days Of Mule Deer They Done As Well As They Did Without All This BULLSSHITT Management That's Managed Them To Death Today!
 
I would have to agree that if all that is available is forked horn bucks going into hunting seasons it's a sign that something is out of sink.

When Colo went from all OTC deer tags to all limited it shifted things from nearly only forked horn bucks to B&C class bucks in around 5 to 7 years' time.

The total opposite was true the past 5ish years. Colorado went from a mule deer mecca to heading the direction of forked horn bucks in only a few years. Putting pressure on old age class bucks by increasing buck tags and late rifle season rut hunts has definitely set things into the toilet in a hurry!

Take a look at Colo's B&C records and it is super evident by the number of listings the shifts in buck age structure during those time periods. To me, mature bucks are a pretty good sign that a mule deer population is healthy and is doing pretty darn well! Mature bucks do more than just browse and poop!

Mature bucks carry the very best genetics in the herd and pass them along to their progeny. They also teach younger bucks how to make it through drought and extreme winters. A lot of that is lost if all that is alive is young forked horns trying to figure out how to breed does and survive.
 
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elkassassin said:
Does that make any sense?Ya It Does!

But In The podcast That Niller Is So Proud Of They Claim The More Bucks We Shoot The Better The Hunting Will Be!

They Claim Them Bucks That Make It Through Are Just Taking Up Landscape & Eating Food On That Landscape!

Funny How Back In The Banner Days Of Mule Deer They Done As Well As They Did Without All This BULLSSHITT Management That's Managed Them To Death Today!
Click to expand...

Back in the 1950 and 1960, no one was interested in the number of buck per 100 does because there where so many deer, both male and female, the State allowed multiple either sex tags. I gaurandamntee ya, they were not paying attention to gender ratios. I do know this, in the mid 1950’s a wildlife film maker, on behalf of the Utah F & G, filmed over 400 buck deer in Big John Flat on the Beaver Mt Unit. Accord to the documentary the F & G were scared the entire mule deer population was going to die off like they did on the Kaibab Mountain….. from starvation, due to over population. The F &G used that film to advertise in California to get California hunters to come and kill more deer that the Utah hunters were not killing.

All I can say about the ideal number of bucks per hundred does, to produce surplus male and females is, they didn’t have any problems growing surplus populations in the 1950 and 1960, when there were huge surplus populations of bucks and does. Then in the 1980 when we’re had an average of 4 buck per hundred doe, our numbers went in the tank and they stated issuing thousands of antlerless tags again, to get the ratio up to 15 buck per hundred doe. They did it out of resentment and to prove to the sportsmen who was in charge of the resources. That’s when the decline began to spiral down. (Yes the local winter climate got warmer then too. Predation was increasing as well, due to the outlawing of 1080 poison. ) That’s when these 50 other contributing factor that Doc McMillin and you have talked about started to have a multiplying factor on our mule deer populations.

I’ll will can tell you or anyone else is, when we had the surplus populations in the 50s and 60’s we had as much as a million more mule deer in Utah and comparing the fawn survival ratios, the predator ratios, the buck/does, the tag numbers, the success ratios all play out differently than they do now. So comparing the dynamics of then to now is probably not fair to either side of the buck vs doe ration discussion, tag number equation.

I was very very much involved in the State moving to managing for buck to doe ratio when it has at 4 per 100 in 1983 when sportsmen ganged up on the DWR, but populations were extremely different then and my bottemline today would be very different today than it was in 1983. But other than this forum I refuse to even speak to it anymore. It’s no longing my personal problem. It’s someone else’s to deal with. I did what I could.

We’re nearly out of mule deer, I’ve only cared about regrowing our populations back, on units that haven’t been over taken by city growth. Right now, I don’t care about the number of buck per hundred does because we essentially have none of either, as compared to what we can have. Nor do I care about the number of tags we sell or what we shoot them with, or when we shoot them. All I care about is growing larger herds to secure a future of hunting for my grandchildren and their children. That’s it, nothing more nothing less, and quite frankly that’s all I’ve cared about for the last 30 years.

So……. as I’ve said numerous times, to that end, that is all I’ve wanted. If Doc McMillin has a solution than can do that, whether it’s 10/100 or 50/100 buck/does, if he wants to catch cougars with fish hooks and wire cable, if he wants to issue 200,000 or no tag, revoke LifeTime Tags or leave them to expire, I don’t give a sh!t.

Just grow some damn mule deer again…….. they don’t like my way or how I’d do it, I’m fine with that……. as long as someone steps up does it……… anyway, anyhow. These guys asked for the job………. so show the hell up and do it…….
 
I’ll reiterate, people need to go listen to the podcast and not listen to what bessy says it says. He’s back to his fake news lying ways again, I guess.

Bessy doesn’t want people to listen. I wonder why?

I say listen, then decide for yourself!
 
The KING Might Wanna Read Posts 67 & 68!

Then Re-Read Them Again Since There's Only A Small F'N Chance Any Of It Sinks In To Your THICK F'N Head!


Vanilla said:
I’ll reiterate, people need to go listen to the podcast and not listen to what bessy says it says. He’s back to his fake news lying ways again, I guess.

Bessy doesn’t want people to listen. I wonder why?

I say listen, then decide for yourself!
Click to expand...
 
And One More thing Niller!

Lumpy Has Forgot More About Deer Management Than You'll Ever Know!

After 50+ Years?

Should We Maybe Start Doing Something SMART When It Comes To Deer Management?

Just Like jims Says!

We've Seen The Same Kinda PISS POOR Management Of Deer In Colorado!

I Did Give Colorado Credit For Alot Of Years When They Were Managing Deer Way Better Than What Was Happening Here!

But GREED Set In For The Almighty Dollar & They Went As LOW As To Start 4th Season Rifle Hunts!

Took A Few Years But It's Showing Now!

The Big Thing Here In DRATville Was When They Started The Smaller Units Statewide To Manage The Deer Better!

How TF Did That Pan Out For Everybody?

It's Over!

It's Been Over For 50+ F'N Years!

Go Shoot Your PISSCUTTER & Drape Him Over The Tailgate Like You've Killed Some Knida GAWD-DAMNED Trophy!

Tell Everybody You Shot A Mature Buck & Remember that Only Takes An Animal That Lives To a MAXIMUM Age of 5 In Today's World!

Put Him On Facebook!

Put Him On Instagram!

Show The Whole World What A Bad-Ass Hunter You Think You Are!
 
elkassassin said:
The KING Might Wanna Read Posts 67 & 68!

Then Re-Read Them Again Since There's Only A Small F'N Chance Any Of It Sinks In To Your THICK F'N Head!
Click to expand...

I read em, and I responded to em. They should listen to the podcast and not what YOU say was in the podcast. They’ll be much better served.
 
What THEY Posted Has Nothing To Do With ME!

Your FAKE BLAME IT ON BESSY BS Doesn't Always Work For You Now Does It?

That: 'Lumpy Has Forgot More About Deer Management Than You'll Ever Know'! Hurt a Little?

Well I'll Say The Same For jims!

That'll Hurt Even A Little More There Tough Guy NILLER!

Vanilla said:
I read em, and I responded to em. They should listen to the podcast and not what YOU say was in the podcast. They’ll be much better served.
Click to expand...
 
Here is a recent. excellent podcast that mostly focuses on Wyoming but likely holds true in Utah as well.

The Utah podcast is definitely revealing about the importance of predator control but seemed to down-play the importance of habit improvement and other projects that negatively impact mule deer numbers. I don't even think they even mentioned buck to doe ratios in the Wyoming podcast?

I really believe Wyoming is at the forefront of making changes and management strategies that will almost immediately benefit mule deer. Wyoming is making strides in the right direction to improve deer health and vigor so that their herds are more resilient and have better opportunity to survive drought, winterkill, auto collisions, predators, etc that put more deer on the mountain.

www.rokslide.com

Mule Deer on the Edge

Robby hosts Troy Fieseler and Luke Schultz of the Wyoming Game & Fish Department. Troy and Luke manage the habitat of the Wyoming Range mule deer herd. They explain the concept of mule deer on the edge.
www.rokslide.com www.rokslide.com
 
2lumpy said:
As low as the population has gotten on the units around me, I’m not sure if raising or lower the number of tags would change much. Because…………. there are not that many deer, male or female, left. With the efficiency of the hunters now days, I believe there are only X number of bucks to kill and when we are able to kill 90% of them……… with either 1,000 tag holders or with 2,000 tag holders, it’s changes the hunt success ratio, but it don’t change the harvest number, in any significant way.

So…….. doubling the tags won’t kill many more deer.

We are killing nearly every yearly buck already. The only hope for any deer harvest, every fall, is praying for fawn survival from the previous June, to give hunters a few hundred yearling bucks to shoot the following fall. We aren’t carried over hardly any bucks, each fall, for the last 50 years. Combine hunter efficiency with extremely low female numbers, there simply are not that many yearlings to kill on any unit around me. So the number of tags issued hardly matters at all anymore. That’s my opinion, for what it’s worth.

Does that make any sense?
Click to expand...
If 90 percent of the bucks are being killed each year, including just about every yearling. How are the people counting 15-20 bucks per 100 does within a herd of 4 or 5 thousand deer after the hunts are over each winter? Your math doesn't add up.
 
jims said:
The Utah podcast is definitely revealing about the importance of predator control but seemed to down-play the importance of habit improvement and other projects that negatively impact mule deer numbers.
Click to expand...

I thought he illustrated the importance of health of the mother and the need for improved summer range for better fawn health and thereby fawn survival pretty clearly.

I don’t think the guys running the podcast were all that interested and they wanted to focus more on management strategies in Utah, like buck:doe ratios, weapons, etc. that have never worked and still aren’t working. But Brock made clear what he hoped would happen as the #1 thing, however, and it absolutely deals with habitat. Fire at the high summer ranges to provide better habitat in those areas is what he said would have the best impact.

The predator stuff was enlightening to me on the podcast as well.

I will find time this week to listen to the Wyoming podcast. I like learning from people that know what they’re talking about!
 
Once You Get On The WB You Should Have It All Fixed Immediately!

We're Rootin For You!

Vanilla said:
I thought he illustrated the importance of health of the mother and the need for improved summer range for better fawn health and thereby fawn survival pretty clearly.

I don’t think the guys running the podcast were all that interested and they wanted to focus more on management strategies in Utah, like buck:doe ratios, weapons, etc. that have never worked and still aren’t working. But Brock made clear what he hoped would happen as the #1 thing, however, and it absolutely deals with habitat. Fire at the high summer ranges to provide better habitat in those areas is what he said would have the best impact.

The predator stuff was enlightening to me on the podcast as well.

I will find time this week to listen to the Wyoming podcast. I like learning from people that know what they’re talking about!
Click to expand...
 
Well I am going to blame the elk for the demise of the deer herd as much as anything. When the state made elk king in this state and focused on them the deer herd went down. The manti, fish lake , beaver and others when there was not as many elk were way better for deer than now. Let's get rid of more elk and bring the deer back
 
I Won't Argue With You!

But We'd Have To Get Rid Of Them All!

If We Took The Money Generated By Elk Hunting Somebody Would Be BAWLING!

But Hey!

They Could Always Quadruple The Amount Of Deer Tags & They'd Magically Multiply!



elkhunter81 said:
Well I am going to blame the elk for the demise of the deer herd as much as anything. When the state made elk king in this state and focused on them the deer herd went down. The manti, fish lake , beaver and others when there was not as many elk were way better for deer than now. Let's get rid of more elk and bring the deer back
Click to expand...
 
I have listened to that podcast twice and found it very interesting. It calls into question many of the current beliefs and practices relating to wildlife management. I think we’d all agree that what we are currently doing with mule deer is not working. Over the last four decades, we have pumped tens of million dollars into habitat improvement and cut tags drastically. What has been the impact on our deer herds?

Don Peay proclaimed 10 years ago that Utah would become “the Serengeti of the west” as a result of our high money tags and our investment in habitat restoration. The reality is we have lots of healthy habitat with very few deer occupying it. I agree there are a number of factors impacting mule deer, but this podcast challenges a number of current practices that are not helping, and frankly may be hurting, our deer herds.

After Robiland shared that podcast with me, I’ve sent it to several of my hunting buddies. Everyone should listen to it and see what you think for yourselves.

Hawkeye
 
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Hawkeye said:
I have listened to that podcast twice and found it very interesting. It calls into question many of the current beliefs and practices relating to wildlife management. I think we’d all agree that what we are currently doing with mule deer is not working. Over the last four decades, we have pumped tens of million dollars into habitat improvement and cut tags drastically. What has been the impact on our deer herds?

Don Peay proclaimed 10 years ago that Utah would become “the Serengeti of the west” as a result of our high money tags and our investment in habitat restoration. The reality is we have lots of healthy habitat with very few deer occupying it. I agree there are a number of factors impacting mule deer, but this podcast calls on the question a number of current practices that are not helping, and frankly may be hurting, our deer herds.

After Robiland shared that podcast with me, I’ve sent it to several of my hunting buddies. Everyone should listen to it and see what you think for yourselves.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
Actually….. I’d be way more interested in what the UDWR leadership, law enforcement and biologists think about it. They are the gate keepers. What hunters or college scientists think about it doesn’t mean squat. Doctor McMillin isn’t the first research scientist I talked to over the years. Just saying……. Doc McMillin opinions are “not” where the rubber meets the road…….. unfortunately.
 
2lumpy said:
Actually….. I’d be way more interested in what the UDWR leadership, law enforcement and biologists think about it. They are the gate keepers. What hunters or college scientists think about it doesn’t mean squat. Doctor McMillin isn’t the first research scientist I talked to over the years. Just saying……. Doc McMillin opinions are “not” where the rubber meets the road…….. unfortunately.
Click to expand...

And the wildlife board, since they will be setting the policies!

As I stated above, I sure hope this new mule deer committee is listening to the scientists that have the data. I won’t hold my breath as my guess is there will be some antler point restrictions, weapon restrictions, and tag cuts that come out of that committee, nothing more.

And we’ll keep spinning our wheels wondering why things aren’t improving.
 
And Don't Forget About A Committee Of 11-12 Pushing Regulations For 10's Of Thousands!

Probably 2 Persons That Are Familiar With What's Going On & Misc Others Of Different Kinds That Probably Don't Know Or Care!

They Might Even Have A GREENIE On That Committee For All We Know!
Vanilla said:
And the wildlife board, since they will be setting the policies!

As I stated above, I sure hope this new mule deer committee is listening to the scientists that have the data. I won’t hold my breath as my guess is there will be some antler point restrictions, weapon restrictions, and tag cuts that come out of that committee, nothing more.

And we’ll keep spinning our wheels wondering why things aren’t improving
Click to expand...
 
I would be curious what habitat improvement projects have had millions of dollars spent on them with no benefit to mule deer?

Is habitat, browse, water, cover, etc really in excellent condition or is one of these a limiting factor?

Also, if habitat is awesome and there are no deer there must be something preventing healthy does and fawns from prospering.

Winterkill, drought, elk, predators, loss of winter range, road kill, tag allotments….all of the above?
 
2lumpy said:
Actually….. I’d be way more interested in what the UDWR leadership, law enforcement and biologists think about it. They are the gate keepers. What hunters or college scientists think about it doesn’t mean squat. Doctor McMillin isn’t the first research scientist I talked to over the years. Just saying……. Doc McMillin opinions are “not” where the rubber meets the road…….. unfortunately.
Click to expand...
Lumpy-

That is a fair point, but frankly Dr. McMillan is working jointly with the DWR on a number of these studies. Given that relationship, I would hope that the DWR would consider his findings with an open mind. As we both said above, what we are currently doing is not working. Therefore, I was happy to hear about new studies that are producing different data and findings. I’m sure you are familiar with the time-tested definition of insanity — to keep doing the same thing and expect different results.

Hawkeye
 
Hawkeye said:
Lumpy-

That is a fair point, but frankly Dr. McMillan is working jointly with the DWR on a number of these studies. Given that relationship, I would hope that the DWR would consider his findings with an open mind. As we both said above, what we are currently doing is not working. Therefore, I was happy to hear about new studies that are producing different data and findings. I’m sure you are familiar with the time-tested definition of insanity — to keep doing the same thing and expect different results.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
Hey hawky!

Would That Be AKA Doing The Same STUPID SHHitt For Decades?

Good to Hear From You!

You're A Little Mellower Than Your Buddy Niller!:D
 
jims said:
I would be curious what habitat improvement projects have had millions of dollars spent on them with no benefit to mule deer?

Is habitat, browse, water, cover, etc really in excellent condition or is one of these a limiting factor?

Also, if habitat is awesome and there are no deer there must be something preventing healthy does and fawns from prospering.

Winterkill, drought, elk, predators, loss of winter range, road kill, tag allotments….all of the above?
Click to expand...
Jims-

I never said there was no benefit to habitat improvement projects. Rather, I stated that the average sportsman has not seen much of a return on their massive investment in mule deer habitat over the last 40 years. The state of Utah, together with conservation organizations, have invested literally tens of millions of dollars in habitat restoration during that time period. According to them, they have done more habitat restoration work than most western states combined. I’m sure those projects have helped some of the animals in the areas. However, if habitat was the limiting factor for mule, deer, and habitat improvement was the key to growing herds, then Utah arguably should be leading all western states when it comes to mule deer numbers. The reality, however, is our deer herds are in no better shape than any other western state despite 10 millions of dollars, thousands man hours, and numerous worthwhile projects. There is obviously much more to the equation. I agree that habitat is one of many factors.

What if Dr. McMillan is correct and the push to increase back to ratios across the state has significantly limited herd productivity? Wouldn’t that be important to know and understand?

Jason
 
elkassassin said:
Hey hawky!

Would That Be AKA Doing The Same STUPID SHHitt For Decades?

Good to Hear From You!

You're A Little Mellower Than Your Buddy Niller!:D
Click to expand...
Bessy, I am all for trying something different - especially if it’s supported by scientific data. However, we will never be able to address all 50 problems at the same time. We have to start somewhere.

I hope we can finally take “the ride” during the fall of 2024.

Hawkeye
 
Hey hawky!

I Was Hoping To Make THE RIDE Last Fall!

But I Know It Didn't Work Out For You & Niller!

Get It Planned Now!

Talk With Niller!

Preferably The 3rd Week In November!

Let's GIT-R-DONE!






Hawkeye said:
Bessy, I am all for trying something different - especially if it’s supported by scientific data. However, we will never be able to address all 50 problems at the same time. We have to start somewhere.

I hope we can finally take “the ride” during the fall of 2024.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
 
Hawkeye said:
Lumpy-

That is a fair point, but frankly Dr. McMillan is working jointly with the DWR on a number of these studies. Given that relationship, I would hope that the DWR would consider his findings with an open mind. As we both said above, what we are currently doing is not working. Therefore, I was happy to hear about new studies that are producing different data and findings. I’m sure you are familiar with the time-tested definition of insanity — to keep doing the same thing and expect different results.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
As I stated earlier……. I’d support any effort that put’s more inventory in the warehouse. Doctor McMillin’s management methods, yours, bobcats, or Billy Bobs. For 40 years, I’ve been told I was Chicken Little…….. now, for the last 3 years, at least more people are finally seeing what a small handful of us have been living with. It’s finally time to see if anybody, with control is going to put this train wreck back on its track.

I’d love to see it, but I’m justifiably skeptical.
 
Hawkeye, you never answered my question. What projects did the millions of dollars go towards? It would be great to know specific results from these projects so managers know which projects worked and which ones failed.

Can you please attach a few of the project summaries in your next post? If millions were spent there likely are reports?

I have spent time on the Utah/Colorado border. If the winter range in Utah is anything like it is across the border in Colorado I can guarantee that there is a lot of habitat improvement projects that would benefit Utah mule deer in dramatic fashion.
 
jims said:
Hawkeye, you never answered my question. What projects did the millions of dollars go towards? It would be great to know specific results from these projects so managers know which projects worked and which ones failed.

Can you please attach a few of the project summaries in your next post? If millions were spent there likely are reports?

I have spent time on the Utah/Colorado border. If the winter range in Utah is anything like it is across the border in Colorado I can guarantee that there is a lot of habitat improvement projects that would benefit Utah mule deer in dramatic fashion.
Click to expand...
You can get onto SFW's website and they have all the millions of $$$ from the expo and where the money went to on all those projects. Last summer/fall, there was talk on here about all the projects done in Utah with so much feed and habitat with little to no deer. Ill search for them too, but there were lots of them done.
 
Was There Any To Do With Cheat Grass Removal?

Robiland said:
You can get onto SFW's website and they have all the millions of $$$ from the expo and where the money went to on all those projects. Last summer/fall, there was talk on here about all the projects done in Utah with so much feed and habitat with little to no deer. Ill search for them too, but there were lots of them done.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
Was There Any To Do With Cheat Grass Removal?
Click to expand...
A test area south of Beaver and another near Fountain Green have been funded by MDF and SFW (using this product that jims is very familiar with). It has worked miracles in Colorado. This will be the start of the third year of the study in Utah. I am looking forward to going over and looking at the Beaver sight again this spring.

It’s possible more Rejuvra projects have been done that I’m not aware of.

IMG_5027.jpeg
 
jims-

The WRI website posted by middlefork above shows projects going back to 2006. See https://wri.utah.gov/wri/ According to that site, Utah has completed 2,707 projects and improved over 2.5 million acres to the tune of $377 million in funding since 2006.

That is a good starting point but these projects have been funded with conservation dollars and matching funds going back to at least the 1990s. According to a recent press release from the DWR, the DWR restored over 148,000 acres in 2022-23 alone in conjunction with the WRI program and various conservation groups. See https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah...ershed-restoration-initiative-in-2022-23.html

Most of these are good, worthwhile projects that benefit the landscape and wildlife. I don't dispute that fact for a minute. My point is that given the massive investment Utah has made in habitat restoration and the tens of millions of dollars generated from conservation permits, you would think that Utah would be leading the West in herd numbers, herd health, and hunter opportunities. The reality, however, is that Utah is no different than any other western state I hunt and it certainly is not the "Serengeti of the West." That tells me that habitat is not likely the limiting factor for our herds and the average sportsman is not getting much of a return on their investment of the hundreds of premium tags taken out of the public draw each year.

Hawkeye
 
Hawkeye said:
jims-

The WRI website posted by middlefork above shows projects going back to 2006. See https://wri.utah.gov/wri/ According to that site, Utah has completed 2,707 projects and improved over 2.5 million acres to the tune of $377 million in funding since 2006.

That is a good starting point but these projects have been funded with conservation dollars and matching funds going back to at least the 1990s. According to a recent press release from the DWR, the DWR restored over 148,000 acres in 2022-23 alone in conjunction with the WRI program and various conservation groups. See https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah...ershed-restoration-initiative-in-2022-23.html

Most of these are good, worthwhile projects that benefit the landscape and wildlife. I don't dispute that fact for a minute. My point is that given the massive investment Utah has made in habitat restoration and the tens of millions of dollars generated from conservation permits, you would think that Utah would be leading the West in herd numbers, herd health, and hunter opportunities. The reality, however, is that Utah is no different than any other western state I hunt and it certainly is not the "Serengeti of the West." That tells me that habitat is not likely the limiting factor for our herds and the average sportsman is not getting much of a return on their investment of the hundreds of premium tags taken out of the public draw each year.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
Precisely right.

I know you hate for me to mention his name or give him any positive credit Hawkeye but that is why, 8 or 9 years ago Don Peay said he would not support anymore major habitat investments for mule deer in Utah. As I recall….. he said he had believed what the State biologists told him….. when they said, back in the 1990s, old decadent habitat was the primary reason for the decline in mule deer numbers, and after matching millions in habitat restoration projects, he had come to the same conclusion you just mentioned, “That tells me that habitat is not likely the limiting factor for our herds and the average sportsman is not getting much of a return on their investment”. I hope I’m not taking either yours or Don Peay’s remarks out of context, that certainly is not my intent.

After Don Peay’s decision not to support more major habitat projects is when his focus turned to fawn survival studies done by BYU’s life science department and Doctor McMillin and Doctor Larsen, which then lead to the Legislatures support for the State wide coyote bounty (still in place today) and more recently the Legislatures decision to charge the law on cougar hunting. Which I believe was and is necessary as well.

So, again I say, you are right in in your observation, and I also agree with McMillin as well when he says there are multiple reasons.

Regarding habitat investments, there is another wrinkle that needs to be looked at more closely…… that elkfromabove has mentioned passionately. That being cheatgrass.

All those millions of dollars spent in the 1990’s and 2000’s did not do anything to suppress cheatgrass. They tried but unsuccessfully. Now that Rejuvra has been developed and on the market, my personal opinion is we very much need to take another hard look at eradicating that scourge of the winter range, and like predator reduction, the sooner the better.

There is a serious problem however in doing that. The cost of Rejuvra is as much $300 or more per gallon, and with millions and millions of acres that need to be treated, I’m fearful it will take decades to find funding for such a massive under taking. And…… while it is extremely effective against cheatgrass it is not a one and done solution, in that it, like typical herbicides requires re-treatment from time to time, in as much as in time cheatgrass will return again to previously treated lands. So it’s a great solution but a costly one. Somehow, sportsmen need to assist in funding this effort if we are to have mule deer to hunt, we cannot push that cost entirely on to the rest of the State’s tax payers, in my opinion, anyway. If that makes sense.
 
Professor McMillan is the current Central Region RAC chair. He needs to press and lobby the Governor to add him (and others who believe in and follow actual data) to the Wildlife Board at the next vacancy.

I appreciate the WB and their service, but many of them over the past few years have difficulty orally communicating an intelligible thought, and too many of them have had direct links to the special interest groups (e.g., SFW, CWMUs) that have caused many of our issues in Utah.

Let's actually get some smart people on the WB who can understand and articulate the issues and workable solutions.
 
I'm Voting The KING Niller in On The WB As Well!

That Gonna Be Northern Region Niller?

elkhunterUT said:
Professor McMillan is the current Central Region RAC chair. He needs to press and lobby the Governor to add him (and others who believe in and follow actual data) to the Wildlife Board at the next vacancy.

I appreciate the WB and their service, but many of them over the past few years have difficulty orally communicating an intelligible thought, and too many of them have had direct links to the special interest groups (e.g., SFW, CWMUs) that have caused many of our issues in Utah.

Let's actually get some smart people on the WB who can understand and articulate the issues and workable solutions.
Click to expand...
 

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