Wasatch thoughts

C

Cam@strawberry

Very Active Member
Messages
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Submitted a comment regarding the proposal for tag cuts. Thought I’d share here for fellas to consider:

Cameron Phillips with Strawberry Bay. Rac members; grateful for your service. Would like to speak directly concerning the proposal to cut approximately 125 LE permits in response to falling age class on the Wasatch unit. I am opposed to the cuts for a couple of reasons chiefly centered on the over arching issue of point creep the entire state faces going forward.

Please consider these points:

1. The unit is over objective. We reacted strongly to the aggressive cow hunts in place from 2014-2019. The moves have been very successful in redistribution of elk across the landscape. Current population estimates have the Wasatch at 10,800 head. This means we have an excess of bulls to hunt. A welcome product of the large recruitment classes of 2019-2022. My experience on the ground concurs with this. Cutting permits is illogical when we consider it a reaction to a short term problem that will resolve itself with large age classes of bulls coming up the proverbial pipeline.

2. Hunter satisfaction remains steady. If we do not have a biological or population based argument to make for tag cuts we turn to social. Hunters have continued to make it clear that opportunities to hunt are much higher than antler size and age class on their priority list. We have worked in recent years with elk committee and management plans to move our strategies and plans accordingly. This proposal is a step backwards from that in my opinion.

Please consider taking an aggressive stand against the cuts. I would suggest or propose leaving tag numbers the same for the next 2 years and allow the larger recruitment classes to get to the management age before making significant changes.

Not doing so I believe will continue to perpetuate a boom bust cycle that we have seen for the last 2.5 decades. One that has us continually making knee jerk reactions without considering the context that has brought us to this point. We have a unique opportunity to break that cycle and allow hunters to realize the increased opportunities from creative management strategies hunters and biologists teamed up to implement just 5 years ago.

Thanks for your time, consideration, and service.

Cameron
 
Hey BEAVIS?

Hows Them Trophy Bulls Been Treating You The Last Couple Years?

Yup!

You'll Still Have Plenty Of Clientele For Whatever is Left On The Unit So It really Doesn't Matter To You!

Just Think!

The COW KILLER Tags Will Always Be There!

KEEP POUNDIN THE WASATCH!
 
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elkassassin said:
Hey BEAVIS?

Hows Them Trophy Bulls Been Treating You The Last Couple Years?

Yup!

You'll Still Have Plenty Of Clientele For Whatever is Left On The Unit So It really Doesn't Matter To You!

Just Think!

The COW KILLER Tags Will Always Be There!

KEEP POUNDIN THE WASATCH!
Click to expand...
The oldest schtick in the book continues.
 
berrysblaster said:
The oldest schtick in the book continues.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Put simply, there aren’t many, if any, that have a better pulse on the Satch elk situation than berrysblaster. Period.

I’m with you on one regard: show me the biological need for the herd to cut big bull tags. I’m not measuring herd health in inches. I want a real biological reason to cut these big bull tags. If there is one, I’ll be the first to support it.

I can only expect what is coming, but I hope some others can wade through the shpoop and not get drown out by nonsensical shouting and we can have a real discussion on this topic.
 
Vanilla said:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Put simply, there aren’t many, if any, that have a better pulse on the Satch elk situation than berrysblaster. Period.

I’m with you on one regard: show me the biological need for the herd to cut big bull tags. I’m not measuring herd health in inches. I want a real biological reason to cut these big bull tags. If there is one, I’ll be the first to support it.

I can only expect what is coming, but I hope some others can wade through the shpoop and not get drown out by nonsensical shouting and we can have a real discussion on this topic.
Click to expand...
The division is required to respond to falling age class trends, which we are seeing and is the impetus behind the recommendation. They are doing their mandated job by proposing the cuts.

I just fail to see the logic, and can’t get behind a proposal that is rooted in a ‘cover your butt’ mentality. Basically, they have to do it per the elk plans directives so this is what we are gonna do regardless of contextual circumstance and expectation moving forward.

I don’t like that.
 
Alright Ellkassassin I have some questions for you and I'm not trying to be a smart A$$.

I was very proactive during the time all these LE units and our current point systems were being designed. I spent a lot of time researching statistics and following the objective of this grand new idea. Like many, I had some concerns, but the new plan moved forward.

How involved were you in the process when this was designed? It didn't happen overnight while everyone was asleep.

If you were proactive and involved in the process, like i assume you were, what was the clear goal of this new idea? What concerns did you bring up and were they addressed?

From the original goal (not the made up one)..... how far off are we from this goal now in 2024?

Then last but not least, what issues (the ones people often complain about) were unforseen and or overlooked when these units and the whole point scheme was being designed.

I could be wrong, but I recall every one of the issues being complained about today being heavily discussed during the implementation of the new system.

I feel, from what I can recall, the units are being ran and managed exactly how they were designed almost 3 decades ago. The goal was to have more elk, have a healthy population and yes.... provide opportunity. Never once can I recall it being mentioned that we would be managing the new units off of horn size. I believe it would be managed off age class and overall herd health.

So what has changed from the goal of the original plan design from the 1990's to now? The only thing I can see is the expectations. People invested a lot of years and they had certain expectations.

I'm not saying I'm 100 percent correct and I'm not saying I agree with every management decision made, but I am saying, for my understanding, the Wasatch unit is being managed exactly how it was intended to be from the start.

I specifically remember people mentioning there would be some that would expect a guaranteed return on their investment. It was laughed at when one gentleman suggested, statistically, elk hunting on public land could become a once in a lifetime deal. Well it's happening folks.

I would really like to hear others opinions on this. I honestly feel the LE units are being ran as designed. Possibly even more conservative than originally designed. Berryblaster laid it out perfectly IMO. If the harvest can be raised, kept the same and still maintain a healthy herd, what more do we want?
 
300WBYMULES said:
I’ll share an opposing opinion. I welcomed the cuts. The quality of the Wasatch in the areas I’m familiar with it’s never been worse.
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I think this is why we as hunters are usually on different ends when it comes to tag cuts. Most people go to the same places every year, hunt the same places and then try and make a judgment call on the whole unit. no doubt places change over time and nothing is like it was as we remember it. but i think just because we don't see the animals in "our" canyon doesn't mean the whole unit is down. animals learn and move. for example they paved the road up gooseberry and across seven mile, you don't see the elk just off the road like 10-15 years ago. i doubt that they all have died, but think the just don't cross like they did before it was paved. i could also be totally wrong, just my observation.
 
I also have a question for Vanilla and Berryblaster on their thoughts.

I believe we reduced the age class objectives with the new elk plan. This was in the name of opportunity which i support. If we get into a situation where the age class falls below the objective, should we not take action? Or are you saying we should make exceptions based off other factors?

I'm honestly curious as to what you're thoughts are. I always tend to lean towards the opportunity side, but if we have an objective and it's not being met, should we modify the plan? I'm just not sure how I feel on this one. Once we start making exceptions, it seems like we open the door to squeezing in special interests in the name of "except "?
 
300WBYMULES said:
I’ll share an opposing opinion. I welcomed the cuts. The quality of the Wasatch in the areas I’m familiar with it’s never been worse.

The DWR would not be making the recommended cuts if the age class objective didn’t suggest it. I hope the cuts stick.
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I hope I’m not misunderstood, I’m not saying the division is wrong. Age class on the unit is falling, and quality last year was awful for a number of reasons.

My position is rooted in the belief that the age class issue will solve itself, via increased population, and by proxy larger age classes reaching management directive age.

I’m not fussed either way, just would rather see opportunities preserved where we can, and I really want to get away from boom bust management. We cut now and will have to add significantly in the next couple years as the excess bulls reach 5/6/7 years old.
 
berrysblaster said:
I hope I’m not misunderstood, I’m not saying the division is wrong. Age class on the unit is falling, and quality last year was awful for a number of reasons.

My position is rooted in the belief that the age class issue will solve itself, via increased population, and by proxy larger age classes reaching management directive age.

I’m not fussed either way, just would rather see opportunities preserved where we can, and I really want to get away from boom bust management. We cut now and will have to add significantly in the next couple years as the excess bulls reach 5/6/7 years old.
Click to expand...

But to be clear (for me), are you outfitting in the unit? Yes or No
 
In response to a couple posts in one: Yes, they are following the management planning age objective with the recommendation. However, following the plan is what they have to do, until they don’t. The management plan for the Beaver called for a lot more tags of late, and they didn’t give them. That is just one example. They’ve diverted from the plan more than once in recommendations in the past.

Also, just because it’s in the management plan does not mean it is biologically sound.

I do think it’s important to follow the set out plans, even if I don’t love them. That said, killing too few bulls is going to be a problem down the line. Sounds awesome to get more big bulls out there, but biologically, is that what the herd and the landscape needs? Biology should ALWAYS be priority #1 in big game management from this second forward. What is the best thing for long term sustaining of the herds? That is what we should do. Always.

I want smart people that are backed by data and real knowledge to be at the table leading these discussions.
 
I know the wasatch like the back of my hand. I have hunted it extensively for most of my life. I have hunted the unit in its entirety.

I have never seen the unit produce such a low quality product as I saw last year. 2023 was a meat bull hunt on the Wasatch.

I also have seen the unit when it was in its prime. I’m not talking antler size although it correlated.

If the unit is at objective which is what is being claimed, then we need to raise the objective and “grow more elk”. The wasatch used to hold thousands more elk than it does now.

I have never been a fan of buck to doe ratios or age objective because they do not reflect the overall herd health or numbers.

15 bucks per hundred does is the same whether it’s 15 bucks in a herd of 100 or 75 bucks in a herd of 500 deer. We would all prefer the herd of 500 deer over a herd of 100.

Age classification is the same thing. If 1/2 the guys on the mid season shoot a small 5 point because due to pressure they couldn’t turn up anything bigger - then the age classification of bulls harvested will go down. That age classification may in fact reflect the age of the average bull but it just as likely doesn’t reflect the average age of the mature bulls on the mountain.

All these proposals do nothing to fix the issues at hand.

We need more deer and elk on the mountain, period.
 
Hey mtngoat690?

You A NEWBIE Around Here?

If you've Spent Any Time At All On MM You'd Already Know My Answers!

I Voiced My Opinion LOUDLY When They Came Up With Their BS Plan To Manage LE ELK Units For A Maximum Of 5-6 Year Old Bulls!

Anybody Listen?

Notta!

bltg See's The Picture!

Niller wants It On Paper Or A Podcast,Then It Becomes GOSPEL To Him!

Mallardsx2 Wants To Know if BEAVIS Outfits On The Said Unit,YES SIR!

That's Just Too GAWD-DAMNED Bad The Wasatch Has Been Hunted Down Below The DWR's And The OPPOR-F'N-TUNISTS Objective Plan!

I Told You All It Would Happen & Here The HELL We Are!

I'm Sitting Back LMMFAO That Since The Wasatch Herd Was Hunted Down Below The Objective That They Have No Other F'N Choice But To Do What's Already In F'N Writing!

How You Like Them F'N Apples Niller Boy?
 
elkhunter81 said:
I think this is why we as hunters are usually on different ends when it comes to tag cuts. Most people go to the same places every year, hunt the same places and then try and make a judgment call on the whole unit. no doubt places change over time and nothing is like it was as we remember it. but i think just because we don't see the animals in "our" canyon doesn't mean the whole unit is down. animals learn and move. for example they paved the road up gooseberry and across seven mile, you don't see the elk just off the road like 10-15 years ago. i doubt that they all have died, but think the just don't cross like they did before it was paved. i could also be totally wrong, just my observation.
Click to expand...
I don’t hunt the same canyon ive moved about and looked at alot of the unit over a 20 year period.

I just think it’s obvious from the lack of bigger bulls you see over a wide sample it’s easy to see that the trophy potential is what it is. I know there’s still good bulls. I could draw any Wasatch tag if I wanted other than the early rifle and it’s not the one I think I’ll settle on. But Berrys group definitely takes some good bulls and I think he’s showing what the top end potential can provide from a knowledgeable outfitter with year after year experience on what is arguably some of the best habitat on the unit.

There was a time I could focus on one section of the unit and see good bulls. Multiple good bulls. Those days ended 15 years ago. I do love the unit and it’s got some awesome options. Very crowded. Hard to get away from crowds anymore on the Wasatch.
 
berrysblaster said:
I hope I’m not misunderstood, I’m not saying the division is wrong. Age class on the unit is falling, and quality last year was awful for a number of reasons.

My position is rooted in the belief that the age class issue will solve itself, via increased population, and by proxy larger age classes reaching management directive age.

I’m not fussed either way, just would rather see opportunities preserved where we can, and I really want to get away from boom bust management. We cut now and will have to add significantly in the next couple years as the excess bulls reach 5/6/7 years old.
Click to expand...
Well said and good point of view.
 
elkassassin said:
Maybe What The Outfitter Wants Will Over-ride What's In Writing?
Click to expand...
I doubt it Sir. They seem to hold the cuts due to not meeting the age class objectives.

I am hoping to see the cuts stay. But your right for the average hunter it is a 5 point ragbull hunt anymore. The number of 300” plus bulls taken anymore is slim Pickens.

But this year…….
 
A Question For BEAVIS?

I'm Not Looking For $$$ Numbers!

But Please Do Answer?

Do You Bring More Money In On A Guy That Brings A Quality Bull Back To The Marina?

Or Is Them Under Age Objective Bulls Bringing More Greenback In?

You're Wrong On Not Wanting Them 125 LE Bulls Cut!

Are you Looking In To The Future At All Or Not?

You Want The UDWR To Break Their Own Rules Just For You?

Like I Said!

You'll Still Book Up With Cow & PISSCUTTER Bull Hunts!

The BRAGGIN Board Won't Be Quite As Impressive But You're Gonna Be Fine!
 
That Was Directed At BEAVIS Tongue In Cheek Kinda Thing!

300WBYMULES said:
I doubt it Sir. They seem to hold the cuts due to not meeting the age class objectives.

I am hoping to see the cuts stay. But your right for the average hunter it is a 5 point ragbull hunt anymore. The number of 300” plus bulls taken anymore is slim Pickens.

But this year…….
Click to expand...
 
When The Rules That You All Were In Favor Of & Voted For You Didn't Believe Me This Would Show Up Down The Road In A Few Years Did You?

A Rule Is The Rule & You're Gonna Live With It!

Hows The 5-6 Year Old Bull Management Treating You Recently?

You Gonna Vote In Favor Of That STUPID Sshit again On LE Units?

Don't Listen To Me Though!

There's A Couple Other Guys That Are Good Hunters That Have Already Posted What They've Seen On The Wasatch The Last Couple Years!

Go Read & See What They Said!

berrysblaster said:
I hope I’m not misunderstood, I’m not saying the division is wrong. Age class on the unit is falling, and quality last year was awful for a number of reasons.

My position is rooted in the belief that the age class issue will solve itself, via increased population, and by proxy larger age classes reaching management directive age.

I’m not fussed either way, just would rather see opportunities preserved where we can, and I really want to get away from boom bust management. We cut now and will have to add significantly in the next couple years as the excess bulls reach 5/6/7 years old.
Click to expand...
 
Podcast Number 3 Should Be Out Before Long & You Can SUCK It Down Like A Big Old TREBLE Hook!

Vanilla said:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Put simply, there aren’t many, if any, that have a better pulse on the Satch elk situation than berrysblaster. Period.

I’m with you on one regard: show me the biological need for the herd to cut big bull tags. I’m not measuring herd health in inches. I want a real biological reason to cut these big bull tags. If there is one, I’ll be the first to support it.

I can only expect what is coming, but I hope some others can wade through the shpoop and not get drown out by nonsensical shouting and we can have a real discussion on this topic.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
Hey mtngoat690?

You A NEWBIE Around Here?

If you've Spent Any Time At All On MM You'd Already Know My Answers!

I Voiced My Opinion LOUDLY When They Came Up With Their BS Plan To Manage LE ELK Units For A Maximum Of 5-6 Year Old Bulls!

Anybody Listen?

Notta!

bltg See's The Picture!

Niller wants It On Paper Or A Podcast,Then It Becomes GOSPEL To Him!

Mallardsx2 Wants To Know if BEAVIS Outfits On The Said Unit,YES SIR!

That's Just Too GAWD-DAMNED Bad The Wasatch Has Been Hunted Down Below The DWR's And The OPPOR-F'N-TUNISTS Objective Plan!

I Told You All It Would Happen & Here The HELL We Are!

I'm Sitting Back LMMFAO That Since The Wasatch Herd Was Hunted Down Below The Objective That They Have No Other F'N Choice But To Do What's Already In F'N Writing!

How You Like Them F'N Apples Niller Boy?
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Actually, I am pretty new around here Elkassassin so I apologize for whatever I've missed.

I don't mean any disrespect, but it doesn't matter what you have said on monster mulies, my question was if you had participated in the process back in the 90's? If you did, what you are seeing is exactly what the plan was from the beginning. So why is it so disappointing to you? The objectives were all layed out from the start.

The part I get so confused about is what do we expect? I'm honestly asking this specifically. In those days, most the people in the meetings would have been ecstatic over a nice 6 point bull. That's what people wanted as an opportunity. They wanted more elk and an opportunity at a bull elk. Nobody at the time, that I can recall, were setting the standards for these units as high as we do today. That's what was for sale and we bought it! We have achieved the intended results. More elk on the landscape and more opportunities to hunt bulls.
 
You're Wrong With your Last Paragraph!

You've Surely Read The Hype Above Here Right?

BEAVIS Doesn't Want The Bull Tags Cut!

The Age Objectives Are Below The Battle Plan Number!

In The UDWRS Own Writing They Said They'd Do Something If Objective Numbers Got Below The Battle Plan!

Well here The hell We Are!

UDWR Doing Just What they Agreed To Here But BEAVIS Doesn't Wanna See It Happen!

HINT:This 5-6 Year Old Objective BS MANAGEMENT Didn't Happen Back In The 90's!

The Wasatch Is Probably By Far The Biggest LE Elk Unit In The State!

With proper Management It Grows Big Bulls & Lots Of 350"+ Bulls!

I've Got A friend in Heber With The initials DG!

I Call Him The Wasatch SHERPA!

Him & His Dad/Family Hunted The Same Area His Dad Hunted All His Life!

They've Took Some Awesome Bucks & Bulls!

But When He Had To Move Camp & Start Looking/Hunting Elsewhere On The Unit That Tells A Story!

Really Sad The Unit Was Managed For $$$ & 5-6 Year Old Bulls!

BEAVIS Might Not Want The 125 LE Permits To Be CUT!

They Are Getting CUT!

If You're A Person That Doesn't Really Care About A Chance At A Trophy Just Go Hunt Some General Hunts,There's Always A Chance!

And you're right The Objectives Were Laid Out & There is A Clause Saying If The Herd/Bulls Get Below The Objectives Something Will Be Done!

Now it's Time For The UDWR To Comply With Their Own Rules & Regs & In A Nice way Of Putting It To Tell BEAVIS To POUND SAND!













Mtngoat690 said:
Actually, I am pretty new around here Elkassassin so I apologize for whatever I've missed.

I don't mean any disrespect, but it doesn't matter what you have said on monster mulies, my question was if you had participated in the process back in the 90's? If you did, what you are seeing is exactly what the plan was from the beginning. So why is it so disappointing to you? The objectives were all layed out from the start.

The part I get so confused about is what do we expect? I'm honestly asking this specifically. In those days, most the people in the meetings would have been ecstatic over a nice 6 point bull. That's what people wanted as an opportunity. They wanted more elk and an opportunity at a bull elk. Nobody at the time, that I can recall, were setting the standards for these units as high as we do today. That's what was for sale and we bought it! We have achieved the intended results. More elk on the landscape and more opportunities to hunt bulls.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
You're Wrong With your Last Paragraph!

You've Surely Read The Hype Above Here Right?

BEAVIS Doesn't Want The Bull Tags Cut!

The Age Objectives Are Below The Battle Plan Number!

In The UDWRS Own Writing They Said They'd Do Something If Objective Numbers Got Below The Battle Plan!

Well here The hell We Are!

UDWR Doing Just What they Agreed To Here But BEAVIS Doesn't Wanna See It Happen!

HINT:This 5-6 Year Old Objective BS MANAGEMENT Didn't Happen Back In The 90's!

The Wasatch Is Probably By Far The Biggest LE Elk Unit In The State!

With proper Management It Grows Big Bulls & Lots Of 350"+ Bulls!

I've Got A friend in Heber With The initials DG!

I Call Him The Wasatch SHERPA!

Him & His Dad/Family Hunted The Same Area His Dad Hunted All His Life!

They've Took Some Awesome Bucks & Bulls!

But When He Had To Move Camp & Start Looking/Hunting Elsewhere On The Unit That Tells A Story!

Really Sad The Unit Was Managed For $$$ & 5-6 Year Old Bulls!

BEAVIS Might Not Want The 125 LE Permits To Be CUT!

They Are Getting CUT!

If You're A Person That Doesn't Really Care About A Chance At A Trophy Just Go Hunt Some General Hunts,There's Always A Chance!

And you're right The Objectives Were Laid Out & There is A Clause Saying If The Herd/Bulls Get Below The Objectives Something Will Be Done!

Now it's Time For The UDWR To Comply With Their Own Rules & Regs & In A Nice way Of Putting It To Tell BEAVIS To POUND SAND!
Click to expand...

I've openly admitted on this platform many times that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. I miss things and I'm wrong about things at times.


You mentioned in my last paragraph, I was wrong. Can you please expand on what part I'm wrong about?

I welcome any opportunity to educate myself.
 
If you would have painted a picture of the Wasatch today for anyone in the early 90s, those people would have done backflips they would be so excited for what was to come.

Elk hunting today is better on any unit in Utah than we could have dreamed 40 years ago.

So when people say it is worse than it’s ever been, I have to question what that means. When someone says “big bulls” are nonexistent anymore, I have to inquire what exactly is a “big bull?” When people say this isn’t what was hoped for in the 90s, I just think those people are dumb.

Goat, you’re 100% spot on. We can say that the Wasatch isn’t at its pinnacle of trophy production right now, but to say this isn’t what the goal was when we set out is beyond crazy. Nobody knew elk hunting like we have today when all this “new” system started 30+ years ago.

And you are also VERY correct that posting on Monster Muleys is NOT “getting involved.” Some mistakenly believe it is, and don’t realize there is a world that exists behind this website.
 
Silentstalker said:
I have never been a fan of buck to doe ratios or age objective because they do not reflect the overall herd health or numbers.

15 bucks per hundred does is the same whether it’s 15 bucks in a herd of 100 or 75 bucks in a herd of 500 deer. We would all prefer the herd of 500 deer over a herd of 100.

Age classification is the same thing. If 1/2 the guys on the mid season shoot a small 5 point because due to pressure they couldn’t turn up anything bigger - then the age classification of bulls harvested will go down. That age classification may in fact reflect the age of the average bull but it just as likely doesn’t reflect the average age of the mature bulls on the mountain.
Click to expand...

💯
 
Mtngoat690 said:
I've openly admitted on this platform many times that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. I miss things and I'm wrong about things at times.


You mentioned in my last paragraph, I was wrong. Can you please expand on what part I'm wrong about?

I welcome any opportunity to educate myself.
Click to expand...
Good luck getting that guy to give you a straight reasonable reply.
 
Hey Niller!

If The UDWR Says It's Below Age Objectives You Don't Need To Second Guess Them!

Maybe Re-Read Post # 16 From A Seasoned Hunter That Spends Quite A Bit A Time In That Unit!
 
Silentstalker said:
I know the wasatch like the back of my hand. I have hunted it extensively for most of my life. I have hunted the unit in its entirety.

I have never seen the unit produce such a low quality product as I saw last year. 2023 was a meat bull hunt on the Wasatch.

I also have seen the unit when it was in its prime. I’m not talking antler size although it correlated.

If the unit is at objective which is what is being claimed, then we need to raise the objective and “grow more elk”. The wasatch used to hold thousands more elk than it does now.

I have never been a fan of buck to doe ratios or age objective because they do not reflect the overall herd health or numbers.

15 bucks per hundred does is the same whether it’s 15 bucks in a herd of 100 or 75 bucks in a herd of 500 deer. We would all prefer the herd of 500 deer over a herd of 100.

Age classification is the same thing. If 1/2 the guys on the mid season shoot a small 5 point because due to pressure they couldn’t turn up anything bigger - then the age classification of bulls harvested will go down. That age classification may in fact reflect the age of the average bull but it just as likely doesn’t reflect the average age of the mature bulls on the mountain.

All these proposals do nothing to fix the issues at hand.

We need more deer and elk on the mountain, period.
Click to expand...
You could say that about any northern Utah unit in 2023 let's see how they rebound this year
 
Deerlove said:
You could say that about any northern Utah unit in 2023 let's see how they rebound this year
Click to expand...

Much of what caused lack of antler growth in 2023 can very easily rebound in one year. It was totally different from 2022 to 2023 in these areas, and that was only one year. This winter has not been nearly as hard as last year.

Elk on the Manti by and large carried their antlers for almost a month longer than normal before shedding in 2023. They came out of winter starved and with no energy to push those antlers out in mass form.

I will be very interested to go and see what 2024 holds. I’m guessing there will be some happy tag holders out there.
 
Pay Attention!

Numbers Are Not Going To rebound In One F'N Year!

Vanilla said:
Much of what caused lack of antler growth in 2023 can very easily rebound in one year. It was totally different from 2022 to 2023 in these areas, and that was only one year. This winter has not been nearly as hard as last year.

Elk on the Manti by and large carried their antlers for almost a month longer than normal before shedding in 2023. They came out of winter starved and with no energy to push those antlers out in mass form.

I will be very interested to go and see what 2024 holds. I’m guessing there will be some happy tag holders out there.
Click to expand...
 
Yes!

The Bulls That Survived Might Very Well Have Better Antler Growth!

That Does Nothing For Numbers This Year!
 
Ok here’s some more actual factual information.

1. Contrary to Bess’s claims the Wasatch is not under age objective. The three year trend is 5.9, 5.7, 5.0. Average is 5.5 Managed for 5.5-6 Per the plan iirc. Trend is down. Still within management bounds.

2. Population isn’t the issue THE WASATCH IS 2000 HEAD OVER OBJECTIVE.

We are talking about cutting 15%~ of existing permits and setting point creep back 2-3 years. ON A UNIT THAT IS OVER OBJECTIVE AND WITHIN AGE MANAGEMENT OBJECTIVES.

Anyways carry on with your banter
 
My Bad On Posting the 5-6 Year Old Objective Numbers!

It Doesn't F'N Matter Though!

If The DWR Says It's Below Objective Age Class They've Got Every Right To Cut Them Tags!

So BEAVIS?

Did They Add All 3 Years Up & Divide By Three?

Or Is That Your Doings?



berrysblaster said:
Ok here’s some more actual factual information.

1. Contrary to Bess’s claims the Wasatch is not under age objective. The three year trend is 5.9, 5.7, 5.0. Average is 5.5 Managed for 5.5-6 Per the plan iirc. Trend is down. Still within management bounds.

2. Population isn’t the issue THE WASATCH IS 2000 HEAD OVER OBJECTIVE.

We are talking about cutting 15%~ of existing permits and setting point creep back 2-3 years. ON A UNIT THAT IS OVER OBJECTIVE AND WITHIN AGE MANAGEMENT OBJECTIVES.

Anyways carry on with your banter
Click to expand...
 
And One More Thing BEAVIS?

I'm Gonna EDIT This:

Size Might Be A Little To Personal!

What Were The Age Class Of The Bulls You Guys Pulled Off The Wasatch In 23?
 
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elkassassin said:
And One More Thing BEAVIS?

I'm Gonna EDIT This:

Size Might Be A Little To Personal!

What Were The Age Class Of The Bulls You Guys Pulled Off The Wasatch In 23?
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Let me do some ‘splainin to you. 23 sucked, everyone knows it. No one is hiding from it, we killed a bunch of 5 points. Couple of good bulls as well,

It was an outlier due to winter. The most likely outcome for 24? Huge rebound. We have an abundance of elk and bulls on the landscape. The first of the larger recruitment classes post 2018 should hit 5.5 yrs old this year with an abundance of feed and stored fat.

I’d be absolutely thrilled to have a tag this year.
 
berrysblaster said:
Let me do some ‘splainin to you. 23 sucked, everyone knows it. No one is hiding from it, we killed a bunch of 5 points. Couple of good bulls as well,

It was an outlier due to winter. The most likely outcome for 24? Huge rebound. We have an abundance of elk and bulls on the landscape. The first of the larger recruitment classes post 2018 should hit 5.5 yrs old this year with an abundance of feed and stored fat.

I’d be absolutely thrilled to have a tag this year.
Click to expand...
 
The number of bulls on these north/central Utah units was not the issue in 2023.

If anyone believes we are lacking for numbers on those units that person has been grossly misinformed. They clearly don’t know that from personal real experience.

elkassassin said:
It Doesn't F'N Matter Though!
Click to expand...

This is the most bessy post ever. You’re right, facts and truth don’t matter to you. Never have!
 
If The DWR Has The Age Of The Bulls Harvested Along With Many With The Same Input That SilentStalker Gave Us In Post # 16 & The Age Of Bulls Taken Were Below The Objective Somethings Gonna Be Done!

Go Read Post # 16 Nilly!

Then Read It Again Nilly!

This Only Proves You Do Not & Will Not Look In To Or At The Future Of Game Herds!

The DWR Finally Gonna Do Something That Needs To Be Done & Of Course You're All PISSY Again!

TOUGH TITTY!

Vanilla said:
The number of bulls on these north/central Utah units was not the issue in 2023.

If anyone believes we are lacking for numbers on those units that person has been grossly misinformed. They clearly don’t know that from personal real experience.



This is the most bessy post ever. You’re right, facts and truth don’t matter to you. Never have!
Click to expand...
 
I wasn't going to chime in here, but what the he!!. My family and I have killed 4 great bulls over the years from the Wasatch (320-375) so in 2023 we put my mom and brother in for tags, they both drew early rifle. Neither had an opportunity at an elk, mostly due to age and health. It was the weirdest hunt I have experienced on this unit, period. Elk were not in their usual spots, rut activity was off in some areas and hot in others, and the quality of bulls were not being found in preseason scouting or hunting. This sentiment was shared by nearly every hunter we spoke to on the mountain over the hunt.
In my opinion, the reduction of tags is a knee-jerk reaction to negative surveys from unsuccessful hunters, not due to any biological or other data. We have seen that the division tends to cave to social pressures over biological data. I will concede that 2023 was an anomalous year with a late spring green up, and most likely negativity impacted antler growth. However, give it another year to see if there is a rebound before we start to yell "the sky is falling".
 
berrysblaster said:
Ok here’s some more actual factual information.

1. Contrary to Bess’s claims the Wasatch is not under age objective. The three year trend is 5.9, 5.7, 5.0. Average is 5.5 Managed for 5.5-6 Per the plan iirc. Trend is down. Still within management bounds.

2. Population isn’t the issue THE WASATCH IS 2000 HEAD OVER OBJECTIVE.

We are talking about cutting 15%~ of existing permits and setting point creep back 2-3 years. ON A UNIT THAT IS OVER OBJECTIVE AND WITHIN AGE MANAGEMENT OBJECTIVES.

Anyways carry on with your banter
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I’m quoting and reposting this because I think it’s not being understood by everyone.
 
You're Right Nilly!

BEAVIS Can Say The Herd Is Over Objective!

He's Not Wrong!

But He's Talking The Total Number Of Elk!

So Before You Put that Next Feather In Your Cap!

Get Yourselves A F'N Cow Tag & Tell Us All What A Great Hunt It Was!

Just Because The Total Herd Numbers Might Be Above Objectives Doesn't Mean The Total Number Of Bulls Taken In 23 Were At Objectives Or Above Objectives In Age!

The Plan Says If The Bulls Get Below The Age Objectives In The Plan Something Has Gotta Happen!

HERE THE HELL WE ARE Nilly!

You Won't Even Think Of Looking In To The Future Past Tomorrow Morning Let Alone In To The Future Of Our Game Herds!



Vanilla said:
I’m quoting and reposting this because I think it’s not being understood by everyone.
Click to expand...
 
Does The Total Herd Being 2,000 Over Objectives Say Anything For The Bulls?

Use Your Head Just Once!

Doesn't Matter At All!

We Are Talking Bulls!

Bulls That HAVE Been Hit Hard & The Age Of The Bulls Taken In 23 Were Below The Battle Plan Of The Objectives!

The UDWR Is At Least Doing Something To Help The Herd!

CUT EM!

CUT ALL 125 WHEN NEEDED!
 
elkassassin said:
You Won't Even Think Of Looking In To The Future Past Tomorrow Morning Let Alone In To The Future Of Our Game Herds!
Click to expand...

You're forgetting who posted their comment in this thread. It wasn’t me, but your constant obsession with me can keep you making it about me if you’d like. Need more pics?

And you might want to go re-read his comment. It was a good one! It talks about the future and his opinion.

I promise you this: if I have to trust a source about the Wasatch and it’s between only you and berrysblaster, you’re coming in third place.
 
elkassassin said:
Does The Total Herd Being 2,000 Over Objectives Say Anything For The Bulls?

Use Your Head Just Once!

Doesn't Matter At All!

We Are Talking Bulls!

Bulls That HAVE Been Hit Hard & The Age Of The Bulls Taken In 23 Were Below The Battle Plan Of The Objectives!

The UDWR Is At Least Doing Something To Help The Herd!

CUT EM!

CUT ALL 125 WHEN NEEDED!
Click to expand...
Another, ‘well actually’.

If I remember correctly we manage for a 2-1 bull to cow ratio. 2 cows to 1 bull. That’s a very fuzzy remember and I would be very much not shocked to learn I was wrong.

So busting out my Wasatch high mathematics, that would give us roughly 650~ extra bulls on the landscape.

We have bulls to hunt. Plenty. We have enough that if we just be patient they’ll get to age without any help from us, and over the next 5ish years we will likely see steady increases in tags, and age.

The train gets to the same station either way. Being 2000 head over objective kind of solidifies that.
 
I wonder if the age class falling has anything to do with the structure of the hunts now. The rut hunt is very short now and the majority of the tags are out of the rut. It makes sense to me that the numbers may dip for awhile and then correct itself in the near future?
 
ELKOHOLIC said:
I wonder if the age class falling has anything to do with the structure of the hunts now. The rut hunt is very short now and the majority of the tags are out of the rut. It makes sense to me that the numbers may dip for awhile and then correct itself in the near future?
Click to expand...
The falling age class has everything to do with the cow control permits of the mid 2010’s IMO. We put a serious hurt on the public land elk on the unit for 5+ years and as a result saw significantly impacted population recruitment. This is the bottom of that barrel. Objective at the time was 5500 head, antlerless elk hunt success rates fell from a steady 10 year average of 55% down to 22% I think. Bottom line? We didn’t have as many elk to grow elk with, and we killed and displaced ton of them with reckless/ignorant/lazy management.

The changes made by the Wasatch elk committee in 2018 were pretty substantial; private land only cow tags, raised the objective to 8900, ended control permits. We saw significant changes almost immediately. Elk recovered and returned to public land within 1-2 years. We hit objective, and now get to realize the benefits of calf recruitment on nearly 11,000 head as opposed to 5,500.

Those bigger recruitment classes are about to get to management age ie: bulls born in summer 2018 (population objective estimate was 7,000 iirc) are 6 this year. 2019 (objective estimate 7,700) will hit next year, and 2020 (estimate 8,500~) which was the first of what I would call the monster recruitment classes is set for 2026.

My whole premise is based on this, exercise a little patience, let these age groups get to maturity and then act. Logic would suggest the falling age trend will solve itself shortly without impacting point creep and hunting opportunities.
 
berrysblaster said:
Another, ‘well actually’.

If I remember correctly we manage for a 2-1 bull to cow ratio. 2 cows to 1 bull. That’s a very fuzzy remember and I would be very much not shocked to learn I was wrong.

So busting out my Wasatch high mathematics, that would give us roughly 650~ extra bulls on the landscape.

We have bulls to hunt. Plenty. We have enough that if we just be patient they’ll get to age without any help from us, and over the next 5ish years we will likely see steady increases in tags, and age.
Click to expand...
When The Age Objective Rules Were Set Up There Was Concern By Many Hunters Wanting To Know What Would Be Done If We Got Below Age Objectives!

The DWR Said If & When That Time Rolls Around Something Would Be Done!

I Don't Care If You Claim We Have How Many Bulls Within That Herd!

If It's Getting Below Age Objectives The DWR Is Doing The Right Thing!

You May Not Like It!

Rules Are Rules And That's How It Is BEAVIS!

Maybe You Ought To Become Head Haunch Of The DWR & Manage It As You Wish!

You'd Have The Whole State F'ED Up Within 5 Years!

If You Are Worried About The 2,000 Head Over The Objective Start Slaughtering Your Breeding Stock & Let Us Know In A few Years How That Works Out For You!

You've Seen The Bull Age Drop With Your Own Eyes & You Still Don't See The Light!

KEEP POUNDIN Them!

We'll See How That Treats You In The Future That You Never Look In To!

berrysblaster said:
The train gets to the same station either way. Being 2000 head over objective kind of solidifies that.
Click to expand...
 
Back To Nilly!

Of Course You're Gonna Side With Anybody But Me Because You Don't Know WTF You're Talking About!

If Somebody Says Something Or Posts A Podcast You SUCK It To The Gills!

No,I Don't Need Another LOOK AT ME,LOOK AT ME Picture!

If You're Gonna Post A Pic Please Make It With A Fish Or Something Worth Looking At!

Vanilla said:
You're forgetting who posted their comment in this thread. It wasn’t me, but your constant obsession with me can keep you making it about me if you’d like. Need more pics?

And you might want to go re-read his comment. It was a good one! It talks about the future and his opinion.

I promise you this: if I have to trust a source about the Wasatch and it’s between only you and berrysblaster, you’re coming in third place.
Click to expand...
 
Harvest age objectives are a bad way to manage elk herds. They only tell you the age of elk that were harvested (by definition), which is totally irrelevant. A 300" bull may be 4 years old or he may be 12. Some hunters settle for smaller bulls for whatever reason (its their choice), but that doesn't mean larger and/or older bulls weren't available. The Wasatch has an abundance of smaller "mature" bulls running around. They may be young or their antler size may be due to genetics, nutrition, self-esteem issues, or puberty blockers. We should be managing for a healthy herd with bull:cow ratios, not harvest age objectives. And if people want more big bulls in the herd then stop shooting them all during the peak of the rut.
 
Do You Not remember Me SCREAMING About That Management When They Drempt It Up efa?

To Manage For PISSCUTTERS On LE Units Is What It Boils Down To!

Now Nilly & BEAVIS Wanna Take It A Step Lower Than That Even!

JFP!



El_Matador said:
Harvest age objectives are a bad way to manage elk herds. They only tell you the age of elk that were harvested (by definition), which is totally irrelevant. A 300" bull may be 4 years old or he may be 12. Some hunters settle for smaller bulls for whatever reason (its their choice), but that doesn't mean larger and/or older bulls weren't available. The Wasatch has an abundance of smaller "mature" bulls running around. They may be young or their antler size may be due to genetics, nutrition, self-esteem issues, or puberty blockers. We should be managing for a healthy herd with bull:cow ratios, not harvest age objectives. And if people want more big bulls in the herd then stop shooting them all during the peak of the rut.
Click to expand...
 
I think what Berry is saying is spot on. If there were lower calf production during the cow slaughter years, that would mean less bulls were being born for five years which would mean over the next five years as the older bulls are being thinned out by hunters, the only bulls available are young. Last year kind of proved that. I don’t think there is a lack of bulls, it’s just the bulls are currently lacking in age. I would think that should change dramatically over the next couple years, even without cutting tags.
 
So Shadow?

Nobody Is Arguing That Age Objectives Are Down!

And You Wanna POUND The Unit Again This Year With The Same Number Of Tags?

Think About That Just A Little!

When Was The Last Time Any Game Herd Magically Just Fixed Itself?


Shadow said:
I think what Berry is saying is spot on. If there were lower calf production during the cow slaughter years, that would mean less bulls were being born for five years which would mean over the next five years as the older bulls are being thinned out by hunters, the only bulls available are young. Last year kind of proved that. I don’t think there is a lack of bulls, it’s just the bulls are currently lacking in age. I would think that should change dramatically over the next couple years, even without cutting tags.
Click to expand...
 
It All Boils Down To GREED & MONEY!

There's Alot Of reasons Why!

A Big Combination Of 50+ Issues!

But This Thread Shows The 2 Biggest Factors In Any Of Today's Modern Day Hunting!

$$$ & GREED!
 
Goodness. I have never seen such a whiny little baby in my life.

Get outside and do something before your head explodes Bessy. You look like a petulant child right now.

That is my free advice for the day. You’re paying for the next time.
 
elkassassin said:
So Shadow?

Nobody Is Arguing That Age Objectives Are Down!

And You Wanna POUND The Unit Again This Year With The Same Number Of Tags?

Think About That Just A Little!

When Was The Last Time Any Game Herd Magically Just Fixed Itself?
Click to expand...
The age class is down. Right about where it’s managed to be. Now suppose we cut tags back to a couple hundred, like it was 20 years ago and let 5-600 bulls grow another year. Three years down the road the herd is over objective again and we can slaughter cows to reduce the herd size. Calf production will drop again and we’ll repeat this cycle again.
 
You & A Few Others Are Whining About The Tag Cuts!

TOUGH F'N TITTY There Nilly My BOY!

The UDWR Who You Think They Post Nothing But GOSPEL Have Seen The Age Objective On The Wasatch Get Down Below Where It Should Be!

They Recommend Cutting Some Tags!

They Are Doing The RIGHT Thing Rather You F'N Like It Or Not!

But Theres A Bunch Of Whining BITTCHES On Here Including Yourself Not Liking That TAG CUT Thing,To F'N Bad There Nilly!

For Once & Not Very Often The DWR Recommends Something That Should Be Done & You Can't Handle It!

Ain't That Just Too F'N Bad Nilly?

Carry On With Your JUST DOUBLE THE TAGS BS Management,That Should Fix everything!

By 2025 You Should Have everything Fixed!






Vanilla said:
Goodness. I have never seen such a whiny little baby in my life.

Get outside and do something before your head explodes Bessy. You look like a petulant child right now.

That is my free advice for the day. You’re paying for the next time.
Click to expand...
 
Vanilla said:
You're forgetting who posted their comment in this thread. It wasn’t me, but your constant obsession with me can keep you making it about me if you’d like. Need more pics?

And you might want to go re-read his comment. It was a good one! It talks about the future and his opinion.

I promise you this: if I have to trust a source about the Wasatch and it’s between only you and berrysblaster, you’re coming in third place.
Click to expand...
Or 4th place LOL
 
Hint Shadow?

If The Age Objectives Do Come Up A Little Which They Need To & Magic Happens In One Year,How Hard Would It Be To Up The Tags For The Following Year A Little?

I Know For Most Of You,You Can't Look Into The Future A Year Or Two But Think About It!



Shadow said:
The age class is down. Right about where it’s managed to be. Now suppose we cut tags back to a couple hundred, like it was 20 years ago and let 5-600 bulls grow another year. Three years down the road the herd is over objective again and we can slaughter cows to reduce the herd size. Calf production will drop again and we’ll repeat this cycle again.
Click to expand...
 
I Really Thought Most Hunters Were Smarter Than Most Of What's Been Posted Above But I've Been Proven Wrong Before!
 
Here's My Prediction Of What'll Happen With BEAVIS & His Thread!

The DWR Has Made A Recommendation For 125 Permits To Be Cut!

They Are In Fact Right!

BEAVIS & The Rest Will BAWL!

Then BAWL Some More!

Even If This Goes Through The RAC,Which I Don't Even Know If It's Gonna Be In The RAC'S?

I'd Bet Anything With The Number Of People BAWLING Like Babies, The WB Throws The TAG Cuts Out The Window On The WASATCH Which Is TOTAL BULLSSHITT!

What Is In Writing These Days Doesn't Mean JACK-F'N-SQUAT!

How You like That Nilly?
 
elkassassin said:
Here's My Prediction Of What'll Happen With BEAVIS & His Thread!

The DWR Has Made A Recommendation For 125 Permits To Be Cut!

They Are In Fact Right!

BEAVIS & The Rest Will BAWL!

Then BAWL Some More!

Even If This Goes Through The RAC,Which I Don't Even Know If It's Gonna Be In The RAC'S?

I'd Bet Anything With The Number Of People BAWLING Like Babies, The WB Throws The TAG Cuts Out The Window On The WASATCH Which Is TOTAL BULLSSHITT!

What Is In Writing These Days Doesn't Mean JACK-F'N-SQUAT!

How You like That Nilly?
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There is one who bawls more often than the rest, just my observation
 
elkassassin said:
But Theres A Bunch Of Whining BITTCHES On Here Including Yourself Not Liking That TAG CUT Thing,To F'N Bad There Nilly!
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This is the most ironic post ever.

I’ve never been in someone’s head as badly as I am with Bessy and I haven’t even tried.

Has anyone seen a grown man (using both terms very loosely here) throw a tantrum like this before? It’s a first for me.
 
You Seen My Prediction Nilly!

You Like It?

Vanilla said:
This is the most ironic post ever.

I’ve never been in someone’s head as badly as I am with Bessy and I haven’t even tried.

Has anyone seen a grown man (using both terms very loosely here) throw a tantrum like this before? It’s a first for me.
Click to expand...
 
The one where you predicted something that already happened and was the genesis for this thread.

You really went out on a limb.

What a loser. I’m done with you Bessy. Like I’ve said, I can put up with stupidity. I have no time for dishonest people. Best wishes in your quest to end hunting.
 
Berryblaster's argument make sense if the facts are true(I have no reason to argue).
We are coming into the first year for recommendations of the new elk plan implemented last year. A year where several recommendation were reduced by the WB. And some begrudgingly allowed.
If there is one thing constant with the WB they will be quick to reduce tags and very slow to increase them.
I believe there is a 3 year review? Can no one wait? Or is it the old sky is falling?
It just blows my mind there are this many anti hunters on this web site.
 
middlefork said:
If there is one thing constant with the WB they will be quick to reduce tags and very slow to increase them.
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Yep

IMG_1076.jpeg

middlefork said:
It just blows my mind there are this many anti hunters on this web site.
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Yep!
 
It Blows My Mind On How Many On Here Can't Follow The F'N Rules!

And How Many OPPOR-F'N-TUNISTS There Are!



middlefork said:
Berryblaster's argument make sense if the facts are true(I have no reason to argue).
We are coming into the first year for recommendations of the new elk plan implemented last year. A year where several recommendation were reduced by the WB. And some begrudgingly allowed.
If there is one thing constant with the WB they will be quick to reduce tags and very slow to increase them.
I believe there is a 3 year review? Can no one wait? Or is it the old sky is falling?
It just blows my mind there are this many anti hunters on this web site.
Click to expand...
 
Opportunity to hunt is what people that like to hunt would vote for every time. Sitting around talking about hunting on a website gets old. I would rather go hunting and I don’t need trophy racks to have fun and create memories. Hunting should be fun and enjoyable. Again the Wasatch unit has put plenty of smiles on hunters faces that are grateful for the opportunity even in recent years. Manager expectations properly and you won’t ruin the memories and fun that the Wasatch unit can provide. If you want more than this “opportunity” unit can provide then put in for a top tier unit and wait the 30+ years for your once in a lifetime hunt. Utah wildlife management provides hunters the opportunity to take many different paths so pick your path and please don’t make them all the same. I have post these pictures before but here are some smiles from hunters that like to hunt, my bull from a 2021 archery hunt and my girls smiles from a 2023 mid season hunt. 20” more of antler on either bull would not have changed a thing for us. The Wasatch unit still has a three year average that meets the age objective so no tag cut should be considered. Some on this thread keep missing the point that the age objective is still meeting what was set for the Wasatch unit. Don’t take opportunity away from those that could draw the tag this year and have a fun and enjoyable fun. Berryblaster thank you for a sensible approach and your knowledge of the unit.

44A324FD-2D48-4DB3-8FB9-5E20232A3BCD.jpeg


620B00E6-7DFB-40D7-B8C6-CCFF1B16F296.jpeg


6FC0A375-9600-4B02-B8B1-41A330166AC0.jpeg


5C0C03DE-CF3E-4111-89FF-A8C9C7661968.png
 
Leave the wasatch alone those that want to hunt bulls with no age class can hunt it. It’s not for me Southern Utah is and that’s fine it keeps me out of their way and them out of mine.
 
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Yup!

Keep POUNDING It!

Even When The DWR Is Trying To Do Their Job As Per The Rules Set Up A Few Years Ago!

Any Hunter With A Set Of Eyes Can See This Unit Has Been Going The Other Direction But The Almighty OPPORTUNISTS Are Too F'N Blind Or Should I Say They Don't Care For The Future Of This Unit!

Carry On With The BAWLING!

I Made My Prediction!
 
elkassassin said:
Yup!

Keep POUNDING It!

Even When The DWR Is Trying To Do Their Job As Per The Rules Set Up A Few Years Ago!

Any Hunter With A Set Of Eyes Can See This Unit Has Been Going The Other Direction But The Almighty OPPORTUNISTS Are Too F'N Blind Or Should I Say They Don't Care For The Future Of This Unit!

Carry On With The BAWLING!

I Made My Prediction!
Click to expand...
If the information Berryblaster supplied is correct, the age class is still 5.5 over the last 3-years on average, then the unit is still within the age class that is supposed to be managed for. Straight off the DWR website:

Many of our limited-entry and once-in-a-lifetime big game species hunts are managed for an "age objective." This means that we determine how many buck and bull permits to issue each year based upon the age data collected from hunter-harvested animals the previous three years, while still maintaining a higher "quality"


If age class was low last year, then that isn't enough to trigger the reduction in tags. Therefore, the DWR isn't following their mandate as you keep "BAWLING" about by reducing tags. They are mandated to keep the age class between 5.5-6.0 on the Wasatch.

I fully support the folks that don't want to see these tags cut from the Wasatch. And hope that the DWR follows their mandate and keeps the three year average what they are basing their decisions off of, not some knee jerk reaction to one seasons data.
 
If!

If!

Now We've Got A Nevada ArmChair Biologist CHIMING In!

SWEEEEEEEET!

Nilly Will Love You!

eshunt said:
If the information Berryblaster supplied is correct, the age class is still 5.5 over the last 3-years on average, then the unit is still within the age class that is supposed to be managed for. Straight off the DWR website:

Many of our limited-entry and once-in-a-lifetime big game species hunts are managed for an "age objective." This means that we determine how many buck and bull permits to issue each year based upon the age data collected from hunter-harvested animals the previous three years, while still maintaining a higher "quality"


If age class was low last year, then that isn't enough to trigger the reduction in tags. Therefore, the DWR isn't following their mandate as you keep "BAWLING" about by reducing tags. They are mandated to keep the age class between 5.5-6.0 on the Wasatch.

I fully support the folks that don't want to see these tags cut from the Wasatch. And hope that the DWR follows their mandate and keeps the three year average what they are basing their decisions off of, not some knee jerk reaction to one seasons data.
Click to expand...
 
Ol Bessy has taken a beating here.

The best part? Not once have I suggested I don’t want age. I’ve literally repetitively stated that age is coming and coming quickly in large numbers. If it wasn’t I’d be 100% supportive of cutting tags and probably doing so more aggressively than suggested.

IMO, the Wasatch will have an excess of age AND population beginning in 2025 and lasting through the end of the decade. We get that whether we cut tags or not. It’s coming because of the number of elk on the landscape. So no point in cutting tags.
 
More and bigger elk are not the solution to the problem, they are the problem. (Ronaldo Magnus with a twist)

Knock about 6,000 out of this herd and see if we can get a half dozen decent bucks back in the unit
 
Did The New Name Change Come With A Gender Change?

I Haven't Took A Beating At All!

But I Have Been Known To Hand A Few Out!

Like I Said!

When PISSCUTTERS & COWS Is All That's Left You'll Still Be Able To Post Them On Your BRAGGIN BOARD!

Cam@strawberry said:
Ol Bessy has taken a beating here.

The best part? Not once have I suggested I don’t want age. I’ve literally repetitively stated that age is coming and coming quickly in large numbers. If it wasn’t I’d be 100% supportive of cutting tags and probably doing so more aggressively than suggested.

IMO, the Wasatch will have an excess of age AND population beginning in 2025 and lasting through the end of the decade. We get that whether we cut tags or not. It’s coming because of the number of elk on the landscape. So no point in cutting tags.
Click to expand...
 
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twopointdn said:
Opportunity to hunt is what people that like to hunt would vote for every time. Sitting around talking about hunting on a website gets old. I would rather go hunting and I don’t need trophy racks to have fun and create memories. Hunting should be fun and enjoyable. Again the Wasatch unit has put plenty of smiles on hunters faces that are grateful for the opportunity even in recent years. Manager expectations properly and you won’t ruin the memories and fun that the Wasatch unit can provide. If you want more than this “opportunity” unit can provide then put in for a top tier unit and wait the 30+ years for your once in a lifetime hunt. Utah wildlife management provides hunters the opportunity to take many different paths so pick your path and please don’t make them all the same. I have post these pictures before but here are some smiles from hunters that like to hunt, my bull from a 2021 archery hunt and my girls smiles from a 2023 mid season hunt. 20” more of antler on either bull would not have changed a thing for us. The Wasatch unit still has a three year average that meets the age objective so no tag cut should be considered. Some on this thread keep missing the point that the age objective is still meeting what was set for the Wasatch unit. Don’t take opportunity away from those that could draw the tag this year and have a fun and enjoyable fun. Berryblaster thank you for a sensible approach and your knowledge of the unit.

View attachment 141821

View attachment 141822

View attachment 141823

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200%
 
I've never had a Wasatch tag. Couple inlaws have.

From my perspective it reminded me a lot of the unit I'm familiar with, the Manti.

My son and I like a lot of us watched with both fascination, and horror the elk in Feb and March last winter that were everywhere, but every week the toll was pretty brutal.

As an armchair I expected the bulls that made it would be huge with all the Feed and water.

I was 200% wrong. Everything was stagnated. And not just the northern units.

On top of that, talking to DWR, they believed that as green up started, a lot of the usual canyons were still buried. So with that and loss of a lot of lead cows, elk went to places they normally didn't, and some liked it and stayed.

2023 needs to be tossed for stats, it's a one off.

Now, I believe the Manti is over tagged. Seems it and the Wasatch are similar in the minds of DWR, so I'll assume the same for it.

I do believe that given 2023 was a hammer, you need to see what this year brings. 2 years gives you an idea.

If next spring the numbers are down, that's when you make cuts.


As an armchair, this year might actually be the horn producer?
 
Some guys want to hunt that’s fine. I’m more than happy to accumulate points and pack a bugle on top units with a video camera and get a chance at a big bull every year with my calls. I’m also glad that guys can cycle through on the wasatch quickly. And it can, has and will produce some great bulls still. Mid-season isn’t for me but it’s a great option for guys wanting a better chance then the any bull units for a branch bull. The beaver and boulder will show if the mid-season hunt devastates age. I bet it won’t because guys that want big will let bulls walk that aren’t and guys that don’t truly want big usually don’t shoot big on a better unit because it’s a tough mental game and most people breakdown and panic after a few days. I’ll draw a pronghorn tag before my wait period is up and put back in for elk and be hunting the manti with a bow in no time at all.
 
So Hossy?

You're Saying The Manti Is Over-Tagged?

Wait Till Nilly & His Make Believe Management Gets That Unit DOUBLE TAGGED!

Your Thoughts Hossy?
 
hossblur said:
I've never had a Wasatch tag. Couple inlaws have.

From my perspective it reminded me a lot of the unit I'm familiar with, the Manti.

My son and I like a lot of us watched with both fascination, and horror the elk in Feb and March last winter that were everywhere, but every week the toll was pretty brutal.

As an armchair I expected the bulls that made it would be huge with all the Feed and water.

I was 200% wrong. Everything was stagnated. And not just the northern units.

On top of that, talking to DWR, they believed that as green up started, a lot of the usual canyons were still buried. So with that and loss of a lot of lead cows, elk went to places they normally didn't, and some liked it and stayed.

2023 needs to be tossed for stats, it's a one off.

Now, I believe the Manti is over tagged. Seems it and the Wasatch are similar in the minds of DWR, so I'll assume the same for it.

I do believe that given 2023 was a hammer, you need to see what this year brings. 2 years gives you an idea.

If next spring the numbers are down, that's when you make cuts.


As an armchair, this year might actually be the horn producer?
Click to expand...
I couldn’t agree with you more I saw so many solid bulls on the manti that just couldn’t break that 280-300 range. But I think there could be some really good bulls available this year.
 

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