middlefork
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The first 2 hours or so is pretty much deer related. But it is all interesting.
They said the mule deer committee was meeting after. Hope they don't make things worse.The first 2 hours or so is pretty much deer related. But it is all interesting.
They said the mule deer committee was meeting after. Hope they don't make things worse.
"Committee."
This is the new Biologist.
LOL ........
You are probably right.I Guess If Something Doesn't Go Quite Right They Can Say:
It Isn't Our Fault We Went With What The Committee Recommended!
Careful what you wish for... The biology and data we do have is nascent and murky, the biologists even admit it themselves (listen to the recent Rokslide and GoHunt podcasts). As we are not even near carrying capacity on the majority, if not all, of our general season units, I have a hard time envisioning how killing more bucks will do anything to increase overall fawn recruitment. Thats the reccomendation they've hinted to in both of those podcasts and it terrifies me to be honest...We need that committee to listen to biology and data, not misguided hunters.
Obviously none of you have watched this. It's not as simplified as the Rokslide and Gohunt podcasts
I used to subscribe to this line of thinking as well, but from all there birthing studys they have done 90% of the fawns are born in a 2 week time frame anyway.I totally agree with Nevada sheep. All this data is good but we don’t have deer numbers wise to even think about lowering the buck population. In fact it was mentioned that maybe having more bucks would help breed doe earlier and then fawns would be born earlier giving them a better chance of survival.
Why would they? It’s easier to shout ignorantly than to actually be educated.
For the record, I’m including myself in the possibility of being a “misguided hunter.”
We spend enormous amounts of time and resources to gather data. We probably ought to use it instead of catering to a bunch of whiny hunters that don’t know what we are talking about.
I used to subscribe to this line of thinking as well, but from all there birthing studys they have done 90% of the fawns are born in a 2 week time frame anyway.
In a perfect world, we need improved summer range habitat (e.g. prescribed burns), we need to limit development on winter range and migration corridors (I’m afraid this one is impossible thanks to Utah’s growth-centric politic base), and we need to hope and pray for decent weather.
It’s interesting, one of the podcasts I said that I learned some things from and have been blasted 7200 times since (in a two week period…) talks about summer range being the most important thing, and hinted strongly we need more fires to help our deer herds. But…I’m sure some would just prefer tag cuts over that happening.
As for development on winter range, the legislator hunters love to hate did something pretty huge on that this last session. Check it out.
HB0382
le.utah.gov
"guided" or "controlled" or "owned" Biologists presenting manipulated data are FAR more dangerous than misguided hunters.We need that committee to listen to biology and data, not misguided hunters.
You are 100% right on that one - though the "guiding" "controlling" and "owning" in Utah comes from one source...SFW and other special interest groups ."guided" or "controlled" or "owned" Biologists presenting manipulated data are FAR more dangerous than misguided hunters.
Take a look at the last 40 years in UT and you'll have a perfect case study.
This started way way way before SFW. All of you Johnny Come Lately's don't look a the entire picture. SFW ONLY exists due to decades of mismanagement from the state agencies.You are 100% right on that one - though the "guiding" "controlling" and "owning" in Utah comes from one source...SFW and other special interest groups .
Until that changes, Biologists can only do so much.
See they have you focused only on tag cuts rather than all of the other options and possible fixes to help the herds. I personally have said there are so many options outside of tag cuts. The state would rather cut tags, and do nothing else to help the herds. Then they can have guys like you fight the battle to tell those of us that have been fighting for 5 decades to shut up. You are all being played while the herds continue to suffer.Unfortunately it’s often the misguided hunters forcing the bureaucrats into the recommendations they make. So, sorry muley73, but you’re missing the point of what I’m saying.
In fact, what you’re saying is exactly what I’m advocating for to stop!
We are obtaining incredible data. More so than any other western state currently. What is the point if we are not going to use it? If we are just going to let idiots like me and you force them into things that don’t work anyway and just further the mule deer’s demise in our state?
Heck, I don’t even know if we can save this species. It may be destined to die off as a weaker species not biologically advanced enough to adapt to its changing circumstances. That sucks if that is true, but I hope we don’t let hunters that only care about one thing that doesn’t have anything to do with biology decide what options we follow to see if we can turn this thing around.
Or we can just cut tags again. Maybe this time it will finally work? 30+ years of doing it and cutting more than 70% of the tags hasn’t worked yet, but maybe…just MAYBE it will work the next time.
Okay, forget summer range and just cut tags Bessy. We get it!
How many times you going to say my name? I can send nudes if you need them that badly.
So what are the other options that have been tried besides tag cutsSee they have you focused only on tag cuts rather than all of the other options and possible fixes to help the herds. I personally have said there are so many options outside of tag cuts. The state would rather cut tags, and do nothing else to help the herds. Then they can have guys like you fight the battle to tell those of us that have been fighting for 5 decades to shut up. You are all being played while the herds continue to suffer.
So what are the other options that have been tried besides tag cuts
See they have you focused only on tag cuts rather than all of the other options and possible fixes to help the herds. I personally have said there are so many options outside of tag cuts. The state would rather cut tags, and do nothing else to help the herds. Then they can have guys like you fight the battle to tell those of us that have been fighting for 5 decades to shut up. You are all being played while the herds continue to suffer.
You’re sounding like elkASS now, and that isn’t a compliment. We need to do a lot of new things. I think we agree on that. You’re just too stuck in some faux fight that is a decade plus old that you can’t see we want the same thing.
Keep on your quest to make this about what you want it to be about.
Just kicking against the pricks. It’s effective, I hear!
Disagree. You just have to have the right people on the committee and the right leader running the show. This is where most committees fail.
I don’t want the same one or two people making all the decisions on anything! Even if one of those two is me.
Your plan has been in place the last 40+ years. So far it hasn't worked well. Do you think cutting tags for the next 40 years will be better? Why can't we try something else and hear from some different people who don't "BAWL" all the time. Do different ideas scare you? I have a pile of bull calves I will sell you. You buy them feed them and keep them from the feed lot and slaughter house and report back next year on how your bull calf herd has increased.Hey Nilly?
deadibob isn't Wrong!
The Only Reason Committee's Were drug In To Game Management Is So Others Have Somebody-else To Blame When The BS Doesn't Work,Again!
Now It's took A Few Days Nilly To get Your Blood Pressure Back Down & That's A Good Thing!
So Now it's The KINGS turn To Make A PROPOSAL On The Deer Plan/Management!
I Knew The Opportunists Wouldn't Like Mine & I Gave Them 3 Units,The Guys Wanting A Chance At Better Quality Got 3 Units,I Kept The Rest Of The State Perty Much STATUS-QUO For Some Of The People That Love It Just The Way It Is & For Others That Have Points Built Up Working On Drawing A Medi-Oaker Tag Someday!
I Didn't Really Change That Much!
You & Your Boys Like Notdon,elkhunter81,Brock & Whoever-else That's On The Opportunist List Get To Manage Them Other 3 Units Just As You Please,You Don't Like CUTTING TAGS So I Suggest You Add All The Tags You Want In Them 3 Units,You Can THUMP Your Chest & Show All The Opportunists The LOOK AT ME & LOOK WHAT I DID,I Promise You I Won't Be Mad,I'll Also Promise You I Won't Be There In Any Of Them 3 Units!
So Post up Your PROPOSAL Nilly!
Just Remember A Couple Things:
Your Plan & New Management Needs To Have Something In It For Everybody,No Different Than My PROPOSAL!
No,I'm Not Trying To Raise Your Blood Pressure Again!
Everytime I Get Your Blood Pressure Up You Start Posting Stuff That Don't Need to Be On A Hunting Forum!
I Haven't Even Used The F Word In This Post!
Seriously,What's Your Recommended Plan/Proposal?
Exactly. When you start compromising the best you can hope for is to land on middle ground. The best and worst ideas go away.Committees are a joke. Any time you have two or more people try and decide something it will never come up with the best solution.
Your plan has been in place the last 40+ years. So far it hasn't worked well. Do you think cutting tags for the next 40 years will be better? Why can't we try something else and hear from some different people who don't "BAWL" all the time. Do different ideas scare you? I have a pile of bull calves I will sell you. You buy them feed them and keep them from the feed lot and slaughter house and report back next year on how your bull calf herd has increased.
Does, habitat, roads. Those are the 3 areas I would focus on to help grow the herd
Hey Nilly?
deadibob isn't Wrong!
I disagree. Get the right people in the room having the right conversations and committees can be fantastic and produce incredible ideas.
Like I said before, they fail when the wrong people are in the room being led in the wrong ways. Example: why do we give so much of a voice to ag producers when crafting big game policies? It certainly isn’t so we can grow big game herds! But there they are, not only a part of the discussion, but controlling many of them.
If anyone thinks they have all the best answers to every question, they’re an idiot. I want more voices coming up with better ideas.
But then again, I want to see things change and I like mule deer. Not everyone here does.
I have paid attention you constantly focus on buck numbers and size.If you Had Paid Any Attention Just On Here the Last 25 Years I've Said There Shouldn't Be A F'N Doe Permit Anywhere In This State!
What'Ya Gonna Do With The Roads?
There Is SOME Fencing That Happens Each Year!
But The Herd Is Diminishing Quicker Than What Road Fencing Is Taking Place!
No!
I'm Not Bad Mouthing The Fencing Projects!
You Gonna Talk All The DRATS In To Slowing Down?
I have paid attention you constantly focus on buck numbers and size.
I'm talking about dirt roads. Way too many. Let's close a few down. Why do we need a road in every draw during the hunting season.
Never been better, you?
Just Curious To See What Your Battle Plan Is?
I laugh that within the last 3 days you criticized my ideas I'd like to see us start with that I posted on this very website, and now you are demanding "my plan," not once, not twice, not three times, but now FIVE times over the last 12 hours.
You truly have lost your marbles.
Other than their theory that lower b/d ratio equals more deer, I found their research and data to be accurate and 100% believable.
I am glad they are taking a hard look at elk vs deer conflicts.
With the summer range projects I would encourage all to get in, do the work and get out.
There is some work going on east of salt lake on the wasatch that is now going on year number three, were they have been running chainsaws most of the time. End it already!!!
Bess,Lowering Buck To Doe ratio's Lower Than They Already Are & Issuing MORE TAGS Ain't The Fix!
But With A New Management Plan As I Proposed For The Opportunists I'd Gladly Let Them Try It On Their New 3 Units!
I'm Not Against Them trying It But To Try It Statewide Would Be Total BULLSSHHITT!
Bess,
I agree….try it on 3 units, try some other options on 3 other units and some more on 3 other units.
That was the entire thought process Beijing Option 2. Give the DWR the ability to manage each herd individually with more focus on what they unit needed specifically to grow. The DWR chose to continue to blank manage with the opportunity crowd giving them support and justification to keep it the status quo.
I don’t care if you manage 3 units for OTC tag and have at it and see how that plays out.
Just stop with the blanket management and micro manage each unit for higher overall deer numbers period the end.
If you handed the state over to a private entity there is no question they would grow more deer…so there is a way…it’s just a matter of if we are willing to accept it.
If you handed the state over to a private entity there is no question they would grow more deer…so there is a way…it’s just a matter of if we are willing to accept it.
How'd That Work Out Nilly?
Some might (correctly) argue we already did that with SFW. Had it work out?
Don’t blame me. I opposed it when it happened and have always opposed the “conservation” organization that forced it through against the will of the Division.
I have yet to see a committee produce anything butt half-azz compromises. Get the right people in the room? When has that ever happened? You also said the right leader. What kind of leader is the right one? A leader can’t change all the minds on a committee and if he could the others wouldn’t matter and you would still have one person making all the decisions.I disagree. Get the right people in the room having the right conversations and committees can be fantastic and produce incredible ideas.
Like I said before, they fail when the wrong people are in the room being led in the wrong ways. Example: why do we give so much of a voice to ag producers when crafting big game policies? It certainly isn’t so we can grow big game herds! But there they are, not only a part of the discussion, but controlling many of them.
If anyone thinks they have all the best answers to every question, they’re an idiot. I want more voices coming up with better ideas.
But then again, I want to see things change and I like mule deer. Not everyone here does.
The theory that less bucks and more does is a contradiction to what wildlife biology has taught for decades. If there aren’t enough bucks to breed all the does in the first cycle then the fawns don’t all drop together but rather at subsequent times.Other than their theory that lower b/d ratio equals more deer, I found their research and data to be accurate and 100% believable.
I am glad they are taking a hard look at elk vs deer conflicts.
With the summer range projects I would encourage all to get in, do the work and get out.
There is some work going on east of salt lake on the wasatch that is now going on year number three, were they have been running chainsaws most of the time. End it already!!!
I have yet to see a committee produce anything butt half-azz compromises. Get the right people in the room? When has that ever happened? You also said the right leader. What kind of leader is the right one? A leader can’t change all the minds on a committee and if he could the others wouldn’t matter and you would still have one person making all the decisions.
Shed hunting is becoming a joke. But I love to shed hunt. I have yet to see people driving all over the place, mostly since the places I hunt are miles in and STEEEEEEP crap. Maybe I need to change my locations, LOL!!! Without giving away your spot, can you give an idea of general area or even county youre seeing all the ATV's in the brush? THIS SHIZZZZ ticks me off. I dont see ATV's but I do see more and more E-bikes.Okay! I want to touch on shed hunting.
I have been out shed hunting every weekend since the end of February and holy crap. I just couldn’t believe the light switch that got turned on in one week with Atv and side by side tracks all over the sage brush flats.
All of this is happening during the week when there is hardly any shed hunters out on the landscape. Because they know they can get away with it.
So how do we fix this problem. I think me personally utah should open shed season April 1 and then let non residents come in on May 1.
let’s get everyone out on the landscape all at once.
The fact that you think Option 2 came from SFW proves my point on reality.Some might (correctly) argue we already did that with SFW. Had it work out?
Don’t blame me. I opposed it when it happened and have always opposed the “conservation” organization that forced it through against the will of the Division.
They then use guys like you to justify it. Look at your comment, you oppose it not for the merit of the idea but because it came from an entity that was not the DWR. That shows you care more about the politics of the situation more than the actual betterment of the resource.
No it doesn’t. Swing and a miss. Strike one.
Yes it does.....Homerun.
It’s hilarious how flattered you are with yourselves.
Carry on.
Well how about defining a good committee leader for us and wtf is the difference between a good vs bad committee leader? What can that leader do other than allocate time for speaking , be a spokesman for the group and designate assigned seats? I would say the definition of a good committee leader would be the SOB that brought coffee and donuts.I’ve been on committees that have produced fantastic ideas. Not for our wildlife management, but therein lies my point: they keep having the wrong people under the wrong leadership.
And a real leader isn’t there to change everyone else’s minds. That is not leadership.
Well how about defining a good committee leader for us and wtf is the difference between a good vs bad committee leader? What can that leader do other than allocate time for speaking , be a spokesman for the group and designate assigned seats? I would say the definition of a good committee leader would be the SOB that brought coffee and donuts.
I will agree that committees can produce fantastic IDEAS. But getting a group of people to agree on a fantastic idea rarely if ever happens because they either have their own agenda or just want to change it up in some assinine way so they can say they were integral to the outcome.
Either way by the time that fantastic idea gets everyone’s stamp of approval it has become a watered down, do nothing piece of crap so the members can say we did something, pat theirselves on the back and take a photo op.
I would like references to all these great and wonderful committees you have seen or been a part of.
Book Cliffs of all places. This is why it pisses me off so bad. The deer and Elk herd is hurting out there then they pull this crap.Shed hunting is becoming a joke. But I love to shed hunt. I have yet to see people driving all over the place, mostly since the places I hunt are miles in and STEEEEEEP crap. Maybe I need to change my locations, LOL!!! Without giving away your spot, can you give an idea of general area or even county youre seeing all the ATV's in the brush? THIS SHIZZZZ ticks me off. I dont see ATV's but I do see more and more E-bikes.
Thanks for the response and explanation. I'd be ticked off too. I really hope you can catch these guys and the DWR and whoever else lays the smack down on them. Keep us posted!Book Cliffs of all places. This is why it pisses me off so bad. The deer and Elk herd is hurting out there then they pull this crap.
2017 and last year’s shed closure wasn’t bad at all other then boot tracks. But I can live with that.
Nilly?
You OK?
Never been better, you?
I’m sorry. that sucks I could only imagine that would drive me crazy. I pray for a speedy recovery for you.Thanks for the response and explanation. I'd be ticked off too. I really hope you can catch these guys and the DWR and whoever else lays the smack down on them. Keep us posted!
I have not shed hunt this year and it makes me sick. I ruptured my patellar tendon Feb 6. I am today just barely starting to walk. Zero leg strength and can barely bend my knee. I hope to be back to able to hunt this fall.
Damn, that doesn’t sound good… What’s the Doc say on recovery time?Thanks for the response and explanation. I'd be ticked off too. I really hope you can catch these guys and the DWR and whoever else lays the smack down on them. Keep us posted!
I have not shed hunt this year and it makes me sick. I ruptured my patellar tendon Feb 6. I am today just barely starting to walk. Zero leg strength and can barely bend my knee. I hope to be back to able to hunt this fall.
Well, it was 6 weeks of ZERO walking or leg bend. My quad and calf look like a wet noodle. But he said it takes 6-8 months to get back to full activity. So fingers crossed for September to be back and ready to hunt. So this years apps, I am just laying low. I didnt want top take a chance and do something this fall and push it and be miserable. I did apply for Wy archery elk right before this happened. But everything else is just points and wait until next year.Damn, that doesn’t sound good… What’s the Doc say on recovery time?
Where is this perfect world in which these effective committees are to be found? The only perfect committee I can even imagine is the one where I’m in charge and I have my single handed three pound sledge hammer. Other than that it just ain’t happening “YOU’RE OUT OF LINE SIR” WHACK! “THE COMMITTEE WILL NOW COME TO ORDER”Deadibob, for committee to be effective there has to a vision and clear goal. This is another area our wildlife committees often fall short. But if your committee is staffed with the right people to help accomplish that goal, a good leader brings out ideas from everyone and keeps the committee focused on the task at hand. They won’t dominate the discussion, but will guide it in fruitful directions and ensure the committee meets its goals.
A blank canvass with no vision, the wrong people on the committee, and poor leadership is a recipe for exactly what you describe. Unfortunately, that is often how you can describe our wildlife committees.
If I was starting a committee to increase mule deer in Utah, I’d give them that clear charge: Your task is to figure out ways in which we can increase mule deer in Utah. I would then find the best and brightest from various places to ensure that we get a wide array of ideas in our discussions, but it would not include people that have a vested interest in keeping big game numbers down. That would be counterproductive to the goals of the committee. And then we’d get to work!
This won’t ever happen here because there are groups that have too much invested in never seeing mule deer bounce back. There are too many whiny hunters that are dead set on being the only people that can hunt and telling everyone else how they have to do it when those mere peasants get the chance to have a tag in their pocket. So round and round we go, over and over again on the same lame merry-go-round and continue to watch our mule deer decrease. Just like some want, apparently!
Let me guess, you started your committee last August and you’re still looking for the best and brightest.Deadibob, for committee to be effective there has to a vision and clear goal. This is another area our wildlife committees often fall short. But if your committee is staffed with the right people to help accomplish that goal, a good leader brings out ideas from everyone and keeps the committee focused on the task at hand. They won’t dominate the discussion, but will guide it in fruitful directions and ensure the committee meets its goals.
A blank canvass with no vision, the wrong people on the committee, and poor leadership is a recipe for exactly what you describe. Unfortunately, that is often how you can describe our wildlife committees.
If I was starting a committee to increase mule deer in Utah, I’d give them that clear charge: Your task is to figure out ways in which we can increase mule deer in Utah. I would then find the best and brightest from various places to ensure that we get a wide array of ideas in our discussions, but it would not include people that have a vested interest in keeping big game numbers down. That would be counterproductive to the goals of the committee. And then we’d get to work!
This won’t ever happen here because there are groups that have too much invested in never seeing mule deer bounce back. There are too many whiny hunters that are dead set on being the only people that can hunt and telling everyone else how they have to do it when those mere peasants get the chance to have a tag in their pocket. So round and round we go, over and over again on the same lame merry-go-round and continue to watch our mule deer decrease. Just like some want, apparently!
Vanilla, Are you a Democrat by any chance? The hunter knows notthhiingg. Give it to a government worker. He will take you to the promised land. Don't challenge, just do.
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