2019 Statewide Deer Management Plan is online.

E

elkfromabove

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-19 AT 07:31PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-19 AT 07:27?PM (MST)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2019-11_rac_packet.pdf

Also:
- Bucks, Bull, OIAL 2020 Season Dates.
- CWMU Management Plans.
- Proposed rule ammendments to address point creep, lost opportunities and equity in the hunt drawing process.
- Big Game Application Timeline. (Informational)

It looks like these meetings are gonna be LONG ones!

Feel free to break this thread down into separate threads per separate issues.
Lee
 
Couple of things about this I really like, but the main thing I hope gets approved is the tag surrendering rule changes. Utah?s current rule regarding surrendering a tag are a joke. Many high point holders draw tags, don't find something that suits them, then turn the tag back in to get their points reinstated, including a new point for the current year. As if this wasn?t bad enough, then the surrendered tag goes to an alternate who is almost certainly not in the bonus pool. The proposed rule change seems to address this by requiring the tag to be turned in at least 30 days before the hunt, and you will not receive a point for the current year, similar to the way Colorado does it. I would also like a rule requiring all bonus tags surrendered, to be re-issued to the next bonus tag eligible applicant, not the random pool.
 
>Couple of things about this I
>really like, but the main
>thing I hope gets approved
>is the tag surrendering rule
>changes. Utah?s current rule regarding
>surrendering a tag are a
>joke. Many high point holders
>draw tags, don't find something
>that suits them, then turn
>the tag back in to
>get their points reinstated, including
>a new point for the
>current year. As if this
>wasn?t bad enough, then the
>surrendered tag goes to an
>alternate who is almost certainly
>not in the bonus pool.
>The proposed rule change seems
>to address this by requiring
>the tag to be turned
>in at least 30 days
>before the hunt, and you
>will not receive a point
>for the current year, similar
>to the way Colorado does
>it. I would also like
>a rule requiring all bonus
>tags surrendered, to be re-issued
>to the next bonus tag
>eligible applicant, not the random
>pool.

Well!

REDDOG Ain't Gonna like it if He Can't turn his Tag in 30 Seconds before Closing time/Night before Season!











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
-Let's shoot more does
-Let's set realistic unit population goals(meaning we are going to lower the number so we stop getting beat up for low numbers)
-Maintain lower buck doe ratios on all units. (Our LE is 25-35...Colorado has their worst units 0-1 point to draw units at 30.).
And so on and so on and so on.....

And what do people comment about. It's unfair that high tag holders turn their tags back late. Geesh!!!
 
>-Let's shoot more does
>-Let's set realistic unit population goals(meaning
>we are going to lower
>the number so we stop
>getting beat up for low
>numbers)
>-Maintain lower buck doe ratios on
>all units. (Our LE is
>25-35...Colorado has their worst units
>0-1 point to draw units
>at 30.).
>And so on and so on
>and so on.....
>
>And what do people comment about.
> It's unfair that high
>tag holders turn their tags
>back late. Geesh!!!

Yep, I noticed that as well.....harvest more does but somehow get our herds up to over 400k??
 
Very very frustrating. How hard is it to not give out doe tags. Cut the tags by 20 or 30% raise the price 20 to 30% if you're that worried about Revenue.
 
This is gonna turn into such a mess.... I'm afraid this this the beginning to the end.

The one thing I am really opposed to, is only being allowed to apply for a GS deer tag or a DH deer tag, but not both in the same year. The point creep issues they are trying to address, really has nothing to do with General deer hunts. It's OIL and LE hunts that everyone is complaining about point creep over, not the general. The majority of GS tags right now are guaranteed with 2 points or less. Dedicated doesn't have a real high demeans compared to the GS tags. By doing this, they aren't solving anything. If they decide to go this route, they need to include the LE deer hunts into this as well. You have 3 different deer hunts you can apply for every year, but you can only apply for one. You have to pick which one you want to apply for.




@screaminseagull
 
How about actually using the 60 units identified by the DWR. Then make 30 at 40/100 buck doe ratio with a 4 point or better. Add in a management draw.

And the other 30 guarenteed draw. With no limit on applicants and no antler restriction.

With the option being a 15 year buy in. Once you choose the route you're in that system or those units for 15 years.

You wanna hunt every year there you go there are you units. You want a unit managed for more mature age class well there you go to. Take your pick. But you don't get both. You don't get to apply for LE and general. It eliminates a lot of point creep and it offered both options to sportsmen and women.
 
Are they ever going to just combine the Pref points and Bonus points into just 1 point system-----Bonus preferably with the 50/50 allocation.


It's all draw anyways why do we still have 2 point systems...??



Robb
 
I agree. Lets just do 1 point system. Apply for all you want and can only draw the 1 deer tag. Its all LE any ways.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-19 AT 09:20AM (MST)[p]Here?s how you fix point creep:

NO SUCH THING AS GENERAL SEASON

Make it all 1 draw system, with no waiting period. Have more seasons for all units:
Archery
1st muzzleloader
1st rifle
2nd rifle
2nd muzzleloader
Also make the extended units separate hunts from the regions they are tied into.

Point creep will fall fast and hard. People who want to hunt will.

And no more dedicated hunter, pick a weapon/season
 
I feel like these proposals are going the wrong direction.

Stupid proposals. I guess I'll be attending the rac this year not that it?ll make a difference but I think some of this stuff is BS
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-19 AT 01:39PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-19 AT 01:36?PM (MST)

>LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-19
>AT 09:20?AM (MST)
>
>Here?s how you fix point creep:
>
>
>NO SUCH THING AS GENERAL SEASON
>
>
>Make it all 1 draw system,
>with no waiting period. Have
>more seasons for all units:
>
>Archery
>1st muzzleloader
>1st rifle
>2nd rifle
>2nd muzzleloader
>Also make the extended units separate
>hunts from the regions they
>are tied into.
>
>Point creep will fall fast and
>hard. People who want to
>hunt will.
>
>And no more dedicated hunter, pick
>a weapon/season

This^^^

and while you're at it, manage EVERY unit for 23 bucks per 100 does, no more LE units. That will result in a spread out age class of bucks across all units and all the does will get bred first estrus, not the 2nd or 3rd. That will result in larger fawns going into winter which would boost survival rates. It would also boost tag numbers on existing LE units cycling more hunters thru the unit.

Stop shooting does, except in cases of depredation or where the winter range can't support the herd numbers.
 
>When and where is the Southern
>RAC meeting this year?
>We need to attend and
>at least let our voices
>be heard.


All of the info is right there when you open the link that this thread is based on at top.

There is also a link to officially place a comment in the record prior to any of the rac meeting.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-19 AT 12:08PM (MST)[p]If anybody is going to any of the RAC meetings, and wants to challenge the DWR?s Mule Deer numbers ,,that this plan is based on.

First read the plan, then go to pages 27 through 30, of the plan. ( literature sited)

Read the studies, and methodology they
use to come up with these numbers.

You will see that they are using computer programs that use data that has been attained through some very strange ways,, that seems to be more about ?make work? for biologists, and tricking the computer programs into kicking out desirable numbers.

Ask the biologists , and RAC board members to their faces if they have faith in the data and the numbers being put forward.
 
I plan on going. I think we need a large group of us to go and support the ones who talk about these issues. Does anyone have an idea of how we need to approach the meeting. Emails to the RAC before hand etc.
 
>Some really good ideas here, wish
>they would take your guy's
>advice.

But first you have to give them your advice!!!!

SO DO IT by attending the meetings, emailing them, calling them, faxing them, or going to the 2nd link above and filling out the questionnaire comment space telling them what you want and why.
(Hint: Tell them want you want, not what you don't want.)
 
>I plan on going. I
>think we need a large
>group of us to go
>and support the ones who
>talk about these issues.
>Does anyone have an idea
>of how we need to
>approach the meeting. Emails
>to the RAC before hand
>etc.


I can not make it to this meeting, but I have placed my comments in the record.

There is plenty of different ideas about what is wrong with the deer herd in Utah.

That being said, with out a doubt the overwhelming theme among most people hunting Utah is their disbelief of the numbers being put out by the DWR.

Those numbers are that basis for all the decisions being put into the Mule Deer plan.

I say go strait to that point and don't back down when they (very nicely) call you ignorant.
 
A few years ago I could see the trend starting to happen. So went to a Southern RAC meeting and one of the big wigs up north just laughed and told me the deer were out there, I just had to hunt harder and go find them.
 
>I plan on going. I
>think we need a large
>group of us to go
>and support the ones who
>talk about these issues.
>Does anyone have an idea
>of how we need to
>approach the meeting. Emails
>to the RAC before hand
>etc.

You guys need to email them right now about your ideas. So they have time to think about it before going to a vote. They usually have their minds made up before the meeting because others have reached out to them already.
 
>A few years ago I could
>see the trend starting to
>happen. So went to
>a Southern RAC meeting and
>one of the big wigs
>up north just laughed and
>told me the deer were
>out there, I just had
>to hunt harder and go
>find them.


Southernhunter , you are just the person to get up and voice your opinion at the RAC meeting,, get a bunch of the kids that you work with together and their parents. Formulate a plan before the meeting.

Tell them how you were talked down to the last time you were at a RAC meeting and questioned the DWR mule deer count.

Tell them how you know the situation is even worse now no matter what their computer programs are telling them.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-19 AT 05:23PM (MST)[p]>I plan on going. I
>think we need a large
>group of us to go
>and support the ones who
>talk about these issues.
>Does anyone have an idea
>of how we need to
>approach the meeting. Emails
>to the RAC before hand
>etc.

Here's how I do it. It seems to work for me and probably will work for you.

Beforehand, I do my homework by actually studying, not just reading, the proposals in their entirety including the somewhat boring legal part. And that studying includes taking notes and understanding what's being proposed. Then I think about the probable consequences both good and bad and how this might play out in the long run and then I write down what I want to say (For me, no script, just notes). Be sure to keep it positive 'cause they want to hear what you would like, not what you don't like.

Before you go, make sure you're dressed for the part. Physical appearances count (that's why they wear white shirts and ties), but you don't need to go too far. Just look respectable and clean.

Then, when you get to the meeting (come a bit early, see below), make sure you sign in and pick up the info on the table. And fill out the comment card(s) and hand them in.

During the meeting, you'll get chances to speak at the microphone and you'll be videoed. Be prepared for that! Clearly state your name and the town you're from. That does 3 things. It puts a name to a face, it tells them how far you've come and it gives them an indication of how serious you are.

There are 2 chances to speak on the issue at hand. First, you get to ask questions. Please make sure they are questions, not comments! They'll call you out if you try to make comments at this point! However, be aware that you can convey a lot of your ideas if you ask the right questions. For instance, during a Southern RAC meeting, I once asked if they had any objections to adding shotguns to the list of short range weapons and they said they had no objections. At the time, they were proposing HAM (Handgun, archery, muzzy) hunts, but guess what? We now have HAMS hunts. In any case, with questions, you can find out more about why the DWR is making the proposal, how they plan on implementing it and you can clarify something that you may not understand.

Your second opportunity to speak is during the comment portion. (Remember the comment cards?) You'll get 3 minutes to make your point so be concise and don't try to change the whole system all in one meeting. Stick with just one item or two for now. It usually takes several meetings (and sometimes several years) to get the job done. For instance, during the 2014 Mule Deer Committee meetings, I suggested we add more extended archery units to the system. And then, later on, during several Wildlife Board meetings I made the same suggestion, but it was never even discussed in those meetings, but after one Wildlife Board meeting, Jim Karpowitz and John Bair separately privately told me they thought it was a good idea and that they would like to pursue the idea. Now, how much influence, if any, I had on the establishment of the new extended archery units since that time is impossible to calculate, but at least they heard some of it from me, so I know I did MY job. In fact, I can think of several other things I've suggested over the years(some in concert with others and some by myself) that are now implemented and/or are policy.

You or I won't win all the time at every meeting and some of your/my great ideas may NEVER make it, but you can still make some difference if you've got a good idea and are persistent enough! SFW has members at EVERY meeting and their appearance makes a difference.

Which brings me back to my second paragraph about physical appearance. Not only should you look good when you're there, you have to be there in the first place. I found out that if you show up often enough, they notice when you're NOT there.

And FWIW, emails, letters, faxes, phone calls, and other forms of contact that come on a regular basis are noticed when they stop coming.

I hope you get to attend this meeting (and others) and I hope this helps when you do!
Lee
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-19 AT 10:24PM (MST)[p]I have sent emails, contacted politicians, wrote letters. I filled out the link above and sent it to every knowledgeable hunter I know. You're right though, I could do more. Let's get something together.
 
All of us need to email and be on the same page with this. When the meeting time comes we also need to try to be in attendance and really let them know of our concerns and give our ideas of how we can help change the current down turn. I agree Dogvalley, killing more doe is not going to help reverse the trend, just going to help them justify the buck to doe ratio.
 
>I like to ask, how is
>putting more doe permit out,
>going to improve the population
>of our deer herd.

If you actually knew the logical/mathematical/biological answers to that question, you wouldn't need to ask it. Perhaps you ought to do some serious research and let us know what you find.
 
I do not want to sound like a wet blanket and I do agree the DWR has there head in the sand on the number of deer in this state but they also have there hands tied when it comes too drastic changes maid in permit reduction and increase in license fees so if you are going too come together for the RAC meetings then you need to stay together and take on the state legislature because they are the ones that control the deer hunting in the state of Utah.
The DWR can make changes with all other species they can make different season's for deer but they can not make any significant changes for the regular season (third weekend of October) deer hunt without approval of the state legislature.
I am not real familiar with the doe hunts i have not kept up on the female hunts but I do believe most of the doe hunts are designed around private agriculture too trie and alleviate the pressure on crops. You can correct me if I am wrong.
 
I keep hearing state legislature calls the shots, which is true. But don't they take into serious consideration what is recommended by the DWR. The legislature aren't the ones providing themselves with estimated game population?s, the division provides the legislature with those numbers.
 
I have always thought that the reasons on returning tags should be very limited. If it were me I would extend the penalties out to less than 60 days prior to the hunt.

And I disagree with the variances, particularly on the expo and conservation tags.

Losing your preference points by obtaining any tag will certainly bite a few people. I always thought they wanted those cows and does killed. I though that's why they let you hunt them at the same time if you had another permit for the same area.

But carry on! Are we not arguing about the last few remaining deer in the state of Utah?

If everyone on this board did not shoot a deer next year in any state would that save the herd? Pretty simple, convince the 90,000 + hunters to get a tag and not kill. It is not the people hunting that is the problem it is the people killing the deer. Right?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-19 AT 08:57AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-19 AT 08:56?AM (MST)

The archery hunt ends September 11..

Why cant they just end the archery hunt on the 3 Friday of September every year.

can someone please explain why they do this SH!!?

Technology is a big big problem and it will never go away...

The only way to help bring the bucks back is make it 4 point or better or Hell 3 point or better

I just got done last week with my muzzle load elk hunt and seen well over 100 deer and no bucks at all not even a spike something needs to be done and yesterday...
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-19 AT 11:16AM (MST)[p]>So, did anyone on this forum
>attend the Central RAC meeting
>in Springville yesterday evening? If
>so, how about an update?
>


Yep, I sure did.
I'll respond later when I have more time.

Point creep was the heaviest hit topic.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-19 AT 01:42PM (MST)[p]>Here?s how you fix point creep:

>NO SUCH THING AS GENERAL SEASON

>Make it all 1 draw system, with no waiting period. Have >more seasons for all units:
>Archery
>1st muzzleloader
>1st rifle
>2nd rifle
>2nd muzzleloader
>Also make the extended units separate hunts from the >regions they are tied into.

>Point creep will fall fast and hard. People who want to >hunt will.

>And no more dedicated hunter, pick a weapon/season


headshot05 -

IF you get your way on that then if I am a Lifetime License Holder I am guaranteed to hunt the Henrys every year!! How many Life Time License Holders are there? Last I heard it was several thousand.
 
The notion that Utah can have world-class LE deer hunts, manage point creep, put scopes on modern muzzleloader rifles, maintain ?pseudo-general hunting?, sell hundreds of high- dollar auction tags, increase population size with 17 bucks etc., etc. is just mind boggling to me. There is no logical way to get here, it's all very contrived.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-19 AT 09:18AM (MST)[p]
>
>
>headshot05 -
>
>IF you get your way on
>that then if I am
>a Lifetime License Holder I
>am guaranteed to hunt the
>Henrys every year!! How
>many Life Time License Holders
>are there? Last I
>heard it was several thousand.
>


Simple, Put a cap of lifetimers on each unit. No more than 20% and let them have a choice of 5 units to be drawn from before the other 80% are drawn.
 
I like your idea. With that idea that means If I am a lifetime license holder then 20% of the Henrys tags are guaranteed to my group. Sounds like a good deal for Lifetime License Holders!!!

I imagine that those that aren't Lifetime License holders probably would hate to have 20% of the Henry tags dedicated to Life time License holders. That would make the Henrys, the Pauns, and all other Limited Entry Deer Units a lot harder to draw for the 80%.
 
Give lifetime license holders chance to 1) continue program with requirement to draw tags just like everyone else with free application and tag fees or 2) apply for a refund with proof of identity at DWR office. Use expo revenues to pay out those that want refunds.
 
>I like your idea. With
>that idea that means If
>I am a lifetime license
>holder then 20% of the
>Henrys tags are guaranteed to
>my group. Sounds like
>a good deal for Lifetime
>License Holders!!!
>
>I imagine that those that aren't
>Lifetime License holders probably would
>hate to have 20% of
>the Henry tags dedicated to
>Life time License holders. That
>would make the Henrys, the
>Pauns, and all other Limited
>Entry Deer Units a lot
>harder to draw for the
>80%.


Another idea would be that if any unit that takes more than 8+ points would be off limits to lifetimers as a first choice draw and they would have to build and use points for those hard to draw units. The 20 percent cap would only be on units taking under 8 points to draw.
 
When I was going to purchase a life-time license years ago, I called the DWR. Their words to me were I would be guaranteed a license each year, but it may be the worse units in the state. If there was a premium or limited entry unit I would not be included using my life-time license status.
 

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