2021 utah permit recommendations

Master Baiter

Member
Messages
28

A few interesting ones. Wish they would eliminate ALL for deer permits until the state wide numbers begin to trend in the right direction again.
 

Bwht4x4

Active Member
Messages
904
So if that is better why stop at 50,000? Might as well drop it some reasonable number like 15,000.

They keep dropping the tag numbers without any improvement in herd numbers. Almost like is doesn't make any difference. LOL
I'm all for it! I threw 50k out just as a number to start a conversation.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
5,146
Let’s shut down all hunting for the next decade! That will leave more deer for the predators and the automobiles!

Hawkeye


I was thinking the same thing. If we would give $fw maybe 800 tags, approve 10 more CWMU, and cut deer tags to 200, imagine what the "Serengeti of the West" could be. Just think about it, you could take up golf, but there would be lots of 30" bucks. And the money raised for conservation would be fabulous. With 800 tags, $fw could get Florida Georgia line to play, your 1:2,000,000 lotto ticket will give you hope👍


Or. Ill listen to tag cut bull, when "conservation" tags take a cut, the welfare expo takes a cut, and CWMUs take a cut. Then ill know we are serious
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
5,146
Also, before the usual BS starts. MM will hold its "im not full of crap" photo contest.

To enter:

1. Post your "I wish they would cut tags" post.

2. Submit pic of YOUR 2021 deer tag.

3. Submit video/pics of you cutting up/burning your 2021 deer tag.


The winner gets a custom built home, a 2021 Ford Bronco, a 5 cases of .223.

(Founders not worried about the prize ammount. Not one guy has ever entered this contest)
 

Hawkeye

Very Active Member
Messages
2,689
I meant ALL DOE tags in my original post. I feel the cuts made this year were sufficient and a step in the right direction. But killing does needs to stop until numbers are trending upwards.
Well, that change makes a just a bit of a difference. Finally something we agree upon. (y)

Hawkeye
 

MuleyKiller

Member
Messages
76
The reason that we never see a change in the trends is because the changes that they make are not significant enough or drastic enough! Opportunity to hunt for all, and balancing the DWR checkbooks are their #1 priorities. Until there priorities change the deer numbers/hunting will not change! Remember people its a business. Take care of the customers with Opportunity, And take care of the bottom line at the Bank. Until these things change nothing else will.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
5,146
The reason that we never see a change in the trends is because the changes that they make are not significant enough or drastic enough! Opportunity to hunt for all, and balancing the DWR checkbooks are their #1 priorities. Until there priorities change the deer numbers/hunting will not change! Remember people its a business. Take care of the customers with Opportunity, And take care of the bottom line at the Bank. Until these things change nothing else will.


Um, as opposed to the alternative, taking care of the few and going broke?

Great plan that would be😳
 

roadrunner

Very Active Member
Messages
2,522
Also, before the usual BS starts. MM will hold its "im not full of crap" photo contest.

To enter:

1. Post your "I wish they would cut tags" post.

2. Submit pic of YOUR 2021 deer tag.

3. Submit video/pics of you cutting up/burning your 2021 deer tag.


The winner gets a custom built home, a 2021 Ford Bronco, a 5 cases of .223.

(Founders not worried about the prize ammount. Not one guy has ever entered this contest)
Until now... :cool:
 

Bocephus

Active Member
Messages
707
I agree with all the tag decreases in the southern units. Only numbers that made me scratch my head is Mt Dutton; only 225 buck tags but they are still going to issue doe tags? Even if it is only 10 doe tags it should be zero if the herds that bad
Dutton is struggling no doubt!
 

DeerHunter53

Very Active Member
Messages
1,836
Let’s shut down all hunting for the next decade! That will leave more deer for the predators and the automobiles!

Hawkeye
That sounds like Kali don't hunt the predators and shut down all hunting. Just limit the technology, limit the seasons to one season, and cut the season time to 10 days period.
 

Utahlefty

Member
Messages
82
I know this will sound rude but I don't mean it to be:

Filling out the online feedback form will be a way more effective way to communicate your opinion than posting it here.

We receive everyone of them individually as an email and we do read every one of them. Unfortunately that mean's I get 500-1000 emails before each meeting but that's part of the gig.

They're starting to trickle in and so far the 30 or so I've read have generally supported the biologist's proposal.

Be as specific as possible - if we live 300 miles away from your area we don't automatically know what questions to ask, right?

Feedback dropdown list is right before the first video in the series:

 
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Nevadahunter

Active Member
Messages
224
I know this will sound rude but I don't mean it to be:

Filling out the online feedback form will be a way more effective way to communicate your opinion than posting it here.

We receive everyone of them individually as an email and we do read every one of them. Unfortunately that mean's I get 500-1000 emails before each meeting but that's part of the gig.

They're starting to trickle in and so far the 30 or so I've read have generally supported the biologist's proposal.

Be as specific as possible - if we live 300 miles away from your area we don't automatically know what questions to ask, right?
Could you please place a link for the online feedback form? Thanks
 

Utahlefty

Member
Messages
82
Could you please place a link for the online feedback form? Thanks

After watching the presentations by the biologists you're given the opportunity to submit feedback via a Formstack submission -- it's a dropdown box right before the first video

*edited original post to include feedback link
 

Hawkeye

Very Active Member
Messages
2,689
It looks like the deer and elk herds are really struggling on the Book Cliffs. I know things generally suck statewide but does anyone know what is going on with those specific herds? My gut tells me it is a predator problem but perhaps there is more to it? Elkass and you other locals what have you to say?

Hawkeye
 

ruger1022

Active Member
Messages
179
It looks like the deer and elk herds are really struggling on the Book Cliffs. I know things generally suck statewide but does anyone know what is going on with those specific herds? My gut tells me it is a predator problem but perhaps there is more to it? Elkass and you other locals what have you to say?

Hawkeye
I was on a rangeland tour of the Book Cliffs not too long ago. The wild horses and droughts are leading to poor rangeland conditions, which are impacting the body condition score, pregnancy rates, winter survival, etc. of the deer/elk there. I'm sure the predators play a large role, but the land just isn't supporting what it once did.
 

JakeH

Very Active Member
Messages
2,547
It looks like the deer and elk herds are really struggling on the Book Cliffs. I know things generally suck statewide but does anyone know what is going on with those specific herds? My gut tells me it is a predator problem but perhaps there is more to it? Elkass and you other locals what have you to say?

Hawkeye
Both the deer and elk herds are in horrible shape, 15 years ago i could drive around in the winter and easily see 1500 deer. This winter i was lucky to see 100-200. Elk numbers especially bigger bulls numbers really started dropping about 7 years ago, personally i think the spike hunt has been having a very negative effect, combined with poor range conditions and low fawn/calf survival rates due to drought and predators both herds are in really bad shape.
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
Messages
1,369
Agree with everything JakeH said above. I have had family members/friends with archery deer and elk tags fairly frequently over the past 12 years on the Book Cliffs. The number of deer seen 12 years ago compared to this past year is night and day.

The drought, wild horses, cattle and other factors have really hammered the range conditions out there and it is certainly having an impact on deer/elk. I 100% agree that the spike hunt has had a huge negative impact on the elk out there as well. Time to pull the spike hunt from that unit.
 

Camper_A1

Active Member
Messages
902
It would be interesting to see if grazing permits are also cut in the Books if the range conditions are that bad. Anyone have grazing permit numbers for each of the deer units?
 

ruger1022

Active Member
Messages
179
I can guarantee AUMs are being cut on the book cliffs. They have been cut everywhere. It wasn’t too long ago the Rocky Mountain elk foundation and the nature conservancy bought out over 8000 AUMs on the books to be allocated to wildlife.
 

Daxter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,396
It would be interesting to see if grazing permits are also cut in the Books if the range conditions are that bad. Anyone have grazing permit numbers for each of the deer units?

That would be interesting to see. It's hard to get specific numbers. Not much for transparency or accountability. The rumors I've heard are that one of the main grazers down there has basically split their operation into two separate operations over the last few years and that now they are running more cows than ever.
 

gundog2

Active Member
Messages
121
Utah is so clever to have the BEST OF BOTH WORLDS with deer hunting “Opportunity” AND “Quality”. No need to make a choice between the two. What could possibly go wrong? I love it.
 

Cooper

Very Active Member
Messages
1,285
I was thinking the same thing. If we would give $fw maybe 800 tags, approve 10 more CWMU, and cut deer tags to 200, imagine what the "Serengeti of the West" could be. Just think about it, you could take up golf, but there would be lots of 30" bucks. And the money raised for conservation would be fabulous. With 800 tags, $fw could get Florida Georgia line to play, your 1:2,000,000 lotto ticket will give you hope👍


Or. Ill listen to tag cut bull, when "conservation" tags take a cut, the welfare expo takes a cut, and CWMUs take a cut. Then ill know we are serious
This is spot on!!!
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
26,306
Well Hawkeye!

Maybe You need to Come Out in November & We'll Go for a Ride!

And Bring a Lunch,You'll need it!

We'll Cover as Much Ground as We can in One Day From Break of Daylight Till Dusk!

You Won't Need Your Rifle!

Even If Poaching Was Legal I Doubt We Could Find a Buck any Bigger than a PISSCUTTER Even During the Full Blown Rut!

Ya,It's That F'N Good!

UN-F'N-Believable PISS POOR MANAGEMENT at it's Best!

Ya'll Think The Ole cat was Wrong about the F'N Spike Hunts?

Well!

Here We F'N Are!

They Can Make all the F'N Phony Excuses they Want!

And anybody that wants to Can Suck the BS to Their Gills if they'd Like!

PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!

Spike Hunts in LE Units,WAFJ!

Slaughter the Breeding Stock/Cows,GOOD GAWD-A -MIGHTY!

TOO MANY F'N SPIKE TAGS,ONE WOULD BE TOO F'N MANY!

SLAUGHTERING COWS FOR NOTHING MORE THAN F'N GREED & MONEY!

TOO MANY BIG BULL TAGS,Shoulda Never been a Problem but the Upcoming/Future Big Bulls were Slaughtered as F'N Spikes!

Too Many Tags of All kinds!

This Goes for Both Elk & Deer!

The Unit Will Produce Bulls as Big as any Unit when Managed Properly!


A PRIME EXAMPLE OF HOW NOT TO MANAGE A UNIT!

I Can't Wait For Somebody To CHIME in saying it's:

Just the Horses Fault!

Too Many Moo Cows!

Too Many Predators!

Yup!

There's Too Many Predators alright!

And They are of the F'N Human Kind!

End of F'N Story!


















It looks like the deer and elk herds are really struggling on the Book Cliffs. I know things generally suck statewide but does anyone know what is going on with those specific herds? My gut tells me it is a predator problem but perhaps there is more to it? Elkass and you other locals what have you to say?

Hawkeye
 

Dangbig

Member
Messages
38
Well Hawkeye!

Maybe You need to Come Out in November & We'll Go for a Ride!

And Bring a Lunch,You'll need it!

We'll Cover as Much Ground as We can in One Day From Break of Daylight Till Dusk!

You Won't Need Your Rifle!

Even If Poaching Was Legal I Doubt We Could Find a Buck any Bigger than a PISSCUTTER Even During the Full Blown Rut!

Ya,It's That F'N Good!

UN-F'N-Believable PISS POOR MANAGEMENT at it's Best!

Ya'll Think The Ole cat was Wrong about the F'N Spike Hunts?

Well!

Here We F'N Are!

They Can Make all the F'N Phony Excuses they Want!

And anybody that wants to Can Suck the BS to Their Gills if they'd Like!

PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!

Spike Hunts in LE Units,WAFJ!

Slaughter the Breeding Stock/Cows,GOOD GAWD-A -MIGHTY!

TOO MANY F'N SPIKE TAGS,ONE WOULD BE TOO F'N MANY!

SLAUGHTERING COWS FOR NOTHING MORE THAN F'N GREED & MONEY!

TOO MANY BIG BULL TAGS,Shoulda Never been a Problem but the Upcoming/Future Big Bulls were Slaughtered as F'N Spikes!

Too Many Tags of All kinds!

This Goes for Both Elk & Deer!

The Unit Will Produce Bulls as Big as any Unit when Managed Properly!


A PRIME EXAMPLE OF HOW NOT TO MANAGE A UNIT!

I Can't Wait For Somebody To CHIME in saying it's:

Just the Horses Fault!

Too Many Moo Cows!

Too Many Predators!

Yup!

There's Too Many Predators alright!

And They are of the F'N Human Kind!

End of F'N Story!
I agree if they dropped the spike hunts we could hunt big bulls a lot more
 

Hunt4Elk6x6

Member
Messages
35
How come the Manti is the red headed step child when it comes to management? No change to deer tags when the population has drastically been decreasing for years and an astronomical amount of elk tags with an even bigger increase this year? Does the DWR even spend an ounce of time in this unit? I hate watching its drastic decline.
 

ridgetops

Very Active Member
Messages
1,863
How come the Manti is the red headed step child when it comes to management? No change to deer tags when the population has drastically been decreasing for years and an astronomical amount of elk tags with an even bigger increase this year? Does the DWR even spend an ounce of time in this unit? I hate watching its drastic decline.
The guys I know that hunt that unit are having no problem seeing plenty of mature bucks. The three year average buck/doe ratio hasn't changed in the last three years and it is still right where the DWR has it managed for. So that's probably why no tags have been cut.
 

gundog2

Active Member
Messages
121
They need to lower the recommended 74k general deer permits in 2021 to less than 50k for five years!
This is probably true, but people with lifetime permits need to start drawing tags like everyone else. The video presentation on deer permit recommendations made it clear that the number of applicants is increasing at same time that tag numbers are decreasing. Either we make this a true general hunt or start making everyone draw tags.
 

fullthrottle

Very Active Member
Messages
1,170
I’m confused... wasn’t it only a couple years ago the division was popping off saying how great the deer herds in Utah were doing? All the youngbloods were eating that crap up. Now all the sudden numbers are in the tank, and we are cutting tags? What the deer really need is less charts, graphs, along with some honest population estimates. The DWR needs to stop kidding themselves.
 

copple2

Active Member
Messages
665
I’m confused... wasn’t it only a couple years ago the division was popping off saying how great the deer herds in Utah were doing? All the youngbloods were eating that crap up. Now all the sudden numbers are in the tank, and we are cutting tags? What the deer really need is less charts, graphs, along with some honest population estimates. The DWR needs to stop kidding themselves.
This is spot on!

Now tag numbers are closer to where they were a few years ago. These so called population counts are a joke.
 

MuleyKiller

Member
Messages
76
If the DWR would Cut Tags in half statewide for Deer, This would be a step in the right direction. Then Charge everyone Double then we might start to see the trend change, and they could still balance there finances. Everyone would pay double for a tag I guarantee it. I read all of the DWR's statements about how they are managing to the Approved objective. Well the approved objective is not working. Overall deer numbers are in the tank and buck to doe ratio's obviously is not working! Also how does the DWR not have complete knowledge about Grazing permits on the units they are managing. And then lets take the steps necessary to manage the predators and limit the hunting pressure. Like everyone has said before. Shorten hunt dates , not as many spikes and cow hunts, absolutely no doe hunts. Lets get out and enforce the rules and regulations! We cannot keep managing ANY PART OF THIS STATE FOR OPPURTUNITY, it is a recipe for continued decline in every aspect of our states wildlife! Its not like we need to analyze anymore data to see the current system is broken.
 

Hawkeye

Very Active Member
Messages
2,689
You Read Post # 31 Hawkeye?

Elkster-

Yes, I read your post. I would love to come out there and tour the Bookcliffs with you this fall. I will bring a cooler full of cold Mountain Dews! (Diet for me 😁 ) I have always wanted to see you perform a "high mountain tune up"!

Nobody disputes the fact that the Bookcliffs are really struggling. You point to antlerless and spike tags as the reasons for the decline in the elk herds. I have never been a fan of large numbers of antlerless and spike tags in our LE units. However, why do you disagree with the folks that also point to the poor condition of the range, wild horses and predators? Do you agree that those factors are also contributing to the problem? What about the deer herd? Antlerless and spike elk tags should be helping our deer herds, right?

Hawkeye
 
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elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
26,306
Hey Hawkeye!

Not Saying them Other Factors Don't add to the Problem because they Do!

But Most People/Hunters Blame One Item & One Item Only!

There's 50+ Reasons and You're Smart enough to know that!

(((Humans,The Biggest Predators!)))

(((GREED!)))

(((Wildlife Sold & Herds Destroyed for nothin But GREED & MONEY!)))



Elkster-

Yes, I read your post. I would love to come out there and tour the Bookcliffs with you this fall. I will bring a cooler full of cold Mountain Dews! (Diet for me 😁 ) I have always wanted to see you perform a "high mountain tune up"!

Nobody disputes the fact that the Bookcliffs are really struggling. You point to antlerless and spike tags as the reasons for the decline in the elk herds. I have never been a fan of large numbers of antlerless and spike tags in our LE units. However, why do you disagree with the folks that also point to the poor condition of the range, wild horses and predators? Do you agree that those factors are also contributing to the problem? What about the deer herd? Antlerless and spike elk tags should be helping our deer herds, right?

Hawkeye
 

WhiskeyDog

Active Member
Messages
216
Elkassassin it right. There's a heap of problems on the Bookcliffs. It has been so poorly managed that it's truly sad. I've spent a considerable percentage of my life on that mountain and none of my family even applies there anymore because it sickening. The buffalo are cool, but putting them on the mountain turned out to be a mistake. The horses are a serious problem and even after the big gather this fall, they are still everywhere. There's a growing number or feral/wild cattle, on top of the large numbers of permitted cattle. The feed is going downhill every year, drought, over grazing and years removed from the benefits of the fire are all playing part. I'm not trying to say the predators don't have an impact on game, but the bear and lion numbers are largely in the same or worse shape than deer or elk. They're having way less impact than they used to, just off simple numbers. If the deer and elk were managed properly we could have a lot more predators and they still wouldn't be the limiting factor. 10-15 years ago we had more deer, elk, bighorn sheep, bears, lions even turkeys. We need to look at why it worked then and what we've changed.

The winter range on the south side is getting worse every year. Used to be that every major canyon on the south side had a ranch with ag crops that supported the deer. Now there's nothing. Hell DWR owns what used to support the most deer and it's nothing but a dirt flat with a few tumbleweeds now. They keep trying to plant shrubs that never grow.

I think every person that has truly spent the time on the Books has argued, begged, pled, cried, stomped their feet about the continued spike and cow slaughters, but they keep happening and it's always some big reason why we gotta do it to fix the herds for the future, but the herds keep crashing. The DWR management needs gutted and start over with somebody that's willing to fix the problems not just bullshit everyone in the name of "opportunity".
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
26,306
Right On WhiskeyDog!

It's Pitiful!

The LE Big Bulls are Way Down!

Several of The Local Spike Hunters are Wondering Why They haven't been able to Find any Spikes the last Few Years!

They're Killing Damn Near Everyone of them from year to year!

Well!

I've Just Enhanced My Odds Of Drawing any Tags Once again!:D
 

cannonball

Very Active Member
Messages
1,092
Like I said before, the DWR could not count fish in a fishbowl. The DWR’s counts have always been suspect but the overall herd numbers are trending in the wrong direction.
Maybe the kid hunters, DWR, and WLBoard should be listening to the old coffee shop drinkers. They saw the problem all along - just no one would listen.
 

berrysblaster

Very Active Member
Messages
1,922
I'd point at the models that predict overall mortality before I'd go after counts.

If you are off by 1% on hwy mortality, habitat mortality, predation, hunting, fawn recruitment, etc etc, you are talking about a pretty significant chunk of animals.

Hell, just take 2 of those and have a standard deviation outside what the model takes into account and you have a recipie for consistent declines.

Model innaccuracies with regard to mortality make much more sense to me then anything else except habitat loss.
 

MuleyKiller

Member
Messages
76
I'm not sure why we even count bucks in our buck to doe ratio's. The only thing we should be counting are Doe and fawns. The deer herd in Utah is in the tank. Why do we care how many bucks there are. if you focus on the Doe and Fawns and growing there numbers, the number of bucks will take care of itself. We need more deer!
 

bucks

Member
Messages
63
Drive from Heber city to Duchesne on any given day,I will guarantee you will see at least 5-10 deer hit on the road, not counting the ones that managed to crawl 50' off the side of the road,Then lets look at all the new subdivisions like red ledges,toughe? glen wild the colony, deer run,Timber lakes,Just to mention a few the deer and elk have no were to go??!!!!!!!!!The world is over populated and we are all going to suffer from it.:oops: not sure cutting tag numbers are going to help at this point.
 

buckhorn

Very Active Member
Messages
2,190
I'm not sure why we even count bucks in our buck to doe ratio's. The only thing we should be counting are Doe and fawns. The deer herd in Utah is in the tank. Why do we care how many bucks there are. if you focus on the Doe and Fawns and growing there numbers, the number of bucks will take care of itself. We need more deer!
Last I heard bucks need to breed the does in order to make baby deer.
 

MuleyKiller

Member
Messages
76
Don't get me wrong I agree with cutting buck tags, which will allow for more mature bucks to survive and to Breed Doe's. But if we do not take measure's to increase all the deer number's and to create a larger healthier herd, then there won't be any bucks coming up to manage. Deer numbers are down and trending downward statewide. Cutting 4000 Buck tags statewide isn't going to do anything thing to help out the deer herd.
 

Utahlefty

Member
Messages
82
Well, the public.comment period looks to be about over as Staci emailed.us the combined comment packet this morning for the RAC meetings this week.
Unfortunately, feedback was typically sparse.

There were six presentations to comment upon and comment numbers were :28,17,11,8,8,7. Or. 79 total opinions per region or 0.014% statewide.

I'f you're curious, 60 of the 79 supported the proposal (s) in the northern region.

I was wrong before, you guys literally did provide more commentary here than the whole state did through official.chanels.....
 

Carp

New Member
Messages
4
Well, the public.comment period looks to be about over as Staci emailed.us the combined comment packet this morning for the RAC meetings this week.
Unfortunately, feedback was typically sparse.

There were six presentations to comment upon and comment numbers were :28,17,11,8,8,7. Or. 79 total opinions per region or 0.014% statewide.

I'f you're curious, 60 of the 79 supported the proposal (s) in the northern region.

I was wrong before, you guys literally did provide more commentary here than the whole state did through official.chanels.....
I don’t think the general hunting public majority has any idea about these video presentations, RAC processes or how any of this even works in the first place. You could post the link 10 times a day for a month and people still wouldn’t see it. They just apply every year on the last day of the application season, in a manner like grabbing a fist full of darts and throwing them at the dart board, hoping something sticks. Then when it doesn’t, blames the DWR for about a week on every Facebook wildlife related post then tries again the following year. Look at the numbers of views on the video presentations vs how many applicants there are per species. That should tell you all you need to know right here. People on forums are generally a little more invested in the game than hunting until 10 opening morning then calling it a year, like most of utah seems to do (thank you Jesus!).

the herd numbers are down overall statewide, more in some areas than others, but I don’t think they are as bad as some want us to believe. I get out quite a bit, and I’m seeing animals, healthy animals, all the time in all areas. People want a kill when they get a tag in their pocket, not a hunt. When that bank account gets hit, they feel that they have paid for an animal. When they can’t find one to empty that .30-06 at 3 times, they get angry and want to point fingers at everyone but themselves. Deer and elk are much smarter than they once were. Natural selection and evolution will do that to any thriving species. They’ve learned over time where they need to be to avoid humans, at least as much as they possibly can. When they fail at doing so, they don’t make it much longer after that. I know it feels like the backcountry is full of hunters now, but the reality is only a small percentage are getting into these hard to reach areas, where many animals go for refuge now. I personally don’t know any true back country hunters, rifle, muzzy, archery guys, that put in the time to find animals before the hunt, that will say there isn’t any big deer left in the state or that the elk have been decimated. And I know a lot of them. They just keep their mouth shut and listen to everyone ***** and do their own thing and fill their tags when the opportunities they work very hard for, present themselves.

the thing people really need to understand when they pay for a tag, is you are paying for an opportunity to go hunting. What you do with that opportunity is up to you.
 
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Utahlefty

Member
Messages
82
I don’t think the general hunting public majority has any idea about these video presentations, RAC processes or how any of this even works in the first place. ....


I know it feels like the backcountry is full of hunters now, but the reality is only a small percentage are getting into these hard to reach areas, where many animals go for refuge now.

One thing that I've suspected but been unable to get data on for some time now: The Utah general deer hunt has always been a big revenue source for the DWR but I bet half of the tags they do sell are bought by folks who aren't in any danger of killing anything -- it's just a social event to them.

I have a work colleague who's whole family camps out at the same spot every year. They try to get 8-10 tags amongst themselves but I don't think any of them have shot a deer in 30 years.

What's the percentage? I wouldn't be surprised if it's over 50% and cutting tags might have a very small impact on the number of deer killed overall as 80% of the deer are probably killed by 20% of the tag holders
 

buckhorn

Very Active Member
Messages
2,190
I guess a little be is better than none at all.
I heard they’re proposing 4 additional tags for the oak creek. I wonder if those would all go to resident or if the nonresident would get one?
If so would it go to the bonus or random?
 

ridgetops

Very Active Member
Messages
1,863
I heard they’re proposing 4 additional tags for the oak creek. I wonder if those would all go to resident or if the nonresident would get one?
If so would it go to the bonus or random?
What I understand is they are all going to resident and the any weapon season.
 

buckhorn

Very Active Member
Messages
2,190
What I understand is they are all going to resident and the any weapon season.
I just talked to Mike Wardle and he confirmed that if approved they are all going to resident but two will go to the any legal weapon and one each for the archery and Muzzy.
Nada for nonresident.
 

elkantlers

Very Active Member
Messages
2,552
Get rid of the lifetime License.
There is actually some talk on that very subject. They are talking about paying the Lifetime permit holders a Prorated amount, depending on how long they have had the license, and then eliminating them. They say some people could get as much as $250 of their original $500 back.
 

BIGJOHNT

Long Time Member
Messages
5,013
There is actually some talk on that very subject. They are talking about paying the Lifetime permit holders a Prorated amount, depending on how long they have had the license, and then eliminating them. They say some people could get as much as $250 of their original $500 back.
I don't think they can get rid of the lifetime license holders. If they tried there would be a huge lawsuit ! Breech of contract. Beside their is only a little over 3000 of us left! Most of us don't feel the need to kill just any deer to fill our tag every year. It is nice just knowing we have the privilege to hunt every year.
 

elkantlers

Very Active Member
Messages
2,552
I don't think they can get rid of the lifetime license holders. If they tried there would be a huge lawsuit ! Breech of contract. Beside their is only a little over 3000 of us left! Most of us don't feel the need to kill just any deer to fill our tag every year. It is nice just knowing we have the privilege to hunt every year.
Administrative rule R657-17-3. says Lifetime license holders "May" receive a deer tag. Not "will". That's how they plan on getting around it.
You will still be able to Fish and hunt small game though.
 

fin little

Active Member
Messages
733
The shortest amount of time anybody has had a lifetime license is 27 years. They won't be around much longer. There worth alot more than we paid. Death comes to all of us.
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
10,329
The shortest amount of time anybody has had a lifetime license is 27 years. They won't be around much longer. There worth alot more than we paid. Death comes to all of us.
I bought mine right before they end them about 30 or so years ago. $500. That was a lot for me then! Glad I did it. Dad was right on that one. He pushed me hard to find $500.
 

fin little

Active Member
Messages
733
I bought mine right before they end them about 30 or so years ago. $500. That was a lot for me then! Glad I did it. Dad was right on that one. He pushed me hard to find $500.
My little brother bought what we believe was the last one sold. I think it was Feb or March of 94. He was living out of state in the USAF. He had to have it approved by the DWR director after they refused to sell him one. Worth the trouble it turns out.
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
10,329
My little brother bought what we believe was the last one sold. I think it was Feb or March of 94. He was living out of state in the USAF. He had to have it approved by the DWR director after they refused to sell him one. Worth the trouble it turns out.
Didn’t they offer a limited few each year in a draw after they quit selling them unlimited?
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
10,329
I dont know. I thought they cut them off on a certain published date so everyone had a chance.
You're probably right. I was thinking I was only about 19 or 20, but must have been a bit older. I should just google history rather than rely on my own memory. :)
 

Hawkeye

Very Active Member
Messages
2,689
I vote to cancel all lifetime licenses and ban those folks from hunting since they have had guaranteed tags for the last 27+ years! ;)

On a serious note, the lifetime licenses are a real issue when it comes to mule deer management and hunter management in Utah. With the move to micro units some time ago, Utah has essentially moved to a system where all tags are LE tags. However, we have to maintain 2 separate systems and different types of points (BPs and PPs) due in large part to lifetime licenses. I think Utah would have moved to a single point system for deer some time ago but the State does not know what to do with lifetime licenses. If we are waiting for all of the lifetime license holders to die off or retire from hunting, we could be waiting a long time. For instance, if a dad purchased a lifetime license for his 14 year old son in 1994, that son would now be a 41 year old man. Theoretically, that man could be hunting for three more decades.

So what is the solution to this issue? Is the state really considering a prorated buyout of those licenses? I would be interested in hearing other thoughts and suggestions that would help address the issue and still treat those who bought lifetime licenses fairly.

Hawkeye
 

elkantlers

Very Active Member
Messages
2,552
all the DWR needs to do is pick one area that is 1 sq mile and make it a general area ( micro micro unit ). Then make everything else LE. The lifetime tag holders can hunt that 1 general area every year, OR they can apply for a LE tag with the rest of us.
I vote to cancel all lifetime licenses and ban those folks from hunting since they have had guaranteed tags for the last 27+ years! ;)

On a serious note, the lifetime licenses are a real issue when it comes to mule deer management and hunter management in Utah. With the move to micro units some time ago,
Utah has essentially moved to a system where all tags are LE tags. However, we have to maintain 2 separate systems and different types of points (BPs and PPs) due in large part to lifetime licenses. I think Utah would have moved to a single point system for deer some time ago but the State does not know what to do with lifetime licenses. If we are waiting for all of the lifetime license holders to die off or retire from hunting, we could be waiting a long time. For instance, if a dad purchased a lifetime license for his 14 year old son in 1994, that son would now be a 41 year old man. Theoretically, that man could be hunting for three more decades.



So what is the solution to this issue? Is the state really considering a prorated buyout of those licenses? I would be interested in hearing other thoughts and suggestions that would help address the issue and still treat those who bought lifetime licenses fairly.

Hawkeye
 

Zeke

Long Time Member
Messages
9,309
Hawkeye,
I think you're trying to pass off your first sentence as a joke and then you go on to say its a "real" issue.
The real issue is that most of those guys don't shoot a deer every year or probably not often at all. They're (me) are getting older and attrition will take it's toll naturally on that VERY small group.
We're talking about a small drop in the bucket which will have zero positive impact on the herd health if eliminated.
Simply put, if they're eliminated, the tags will simply be issued to others so make that your point! YOU WANT MY TAG!
 

Hawkeye

Very Active Member
Messages
2,689
Easy there Zeke! I do not want your deer tag and I certainly do not want to ban you from hunting. That first sentence was a joke. I thought the emoji made that clear. ;)

The problem is that from a logical standpoint the state probably needs to move to a single application system and a single bonus point system. Limited Entry (LE) and General is not reality anymore because every unit has essentially become a LE unit. My concern has little to do with the impact you have on the deer herd by obtaining a tag every year with your lifetime license. I have no issue with the state providing you guys a tag every year. The question is what tag should you get? Should the lifetime licenses prevent the state from moving to a single, unified deer application system and a single bonus point system? How do you move to a single bonus point system that includes all deer units (LE and General) and still do right by the lifetime license holders? Do you allow those individuals to have their pick of any unit in a combined system, including the Henries, the Paunsaugunt and Oak Creek? Or do you combine the units into a single system and allow the lifetime license holders choose a tag from 8-10 of the lesser units? What other options are available?

Zeke, what ideas do you have to address these issues? I frankly do not see the state continuing indefinitely with two separate application and bonus/preference systems given the current situation.

Hawkeye
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
26,306
BIGJOHN is Gonna Be Rich with that 250.00!:D

No Consideration for Inflation I Guess?

BEND OVER!

Get the Lube Ready!
 

buckhorn

Very Active Member
Messages
2,190
I watched the Southern RAC meeting yesterday and when Atkinson brought up the issue of lifetime licenses everybody went silent and it got swept under the rug immediately.
I did like the motion to address the issue of folks being able to pay cash for dedicated hunter hours.
 

JakeH

Very Active Member
Messages
2,547
all the DWR needs to do is pick one area that is 1 sq mile and make it a general area ( micro micro unit ). Then make everything else LE. The lifetime tag holders can hunt that 1 general area every year, OR they can apply for a LE tag with the rest of us.
LOL, I had a similar idea, but decided not to post it since I have had some "discussions' with people about this in the past and didn't really feel like furthering the discussion's. LOL
 

deadibob

Very Active Member
Messages
2,673
I vote to cancel all lifetime licenses and ban those folks from hunting since they have had guaranteed tags for the last 27+ years! ;)

On a serious note, the lifetime licenses are a real issue when it comes to mule deer management and hunter management in Utah. With the move to micro units some time ago, Utah has essentially moved to a system where all tags are LE tags. However, we have to maintain 2 separate systems and different types of points (BPs and PPs) due in large part to lifetime licenses. I think Utah would have moved to a single point system for deer some time ago but the State does not know what to do with lifetime licenses. If we are waiting for all of the lifetime license holders to die off or retire from hunting, we could be waiting a long time. For instance, if a dad purchased a lifetime license for his 14 year old son in 1994, that son would now be a 41 year old man. Theoretically, that man could be hunting for three more decades.

So what is the solution to this issue? Is the state really considering a prorated buyout of those licenses? I would be interested in hearing other thoughts and suggestions that would help address the issue and still treat those who bought lifetime licenses fairly.

Hawkeye
What a bunch of jealous little girls. Boo Hoo they have a lifetime license and I don't so let's get rid of all lifetime licenses. This comes up every year and every year the whiners come out pissing and moaning. A few thousand tags (and fewer every year) is nothing compared to the number of general tags given out every year. Some license holders don't even put in for their tag any more.

I was a 22 year old college student driving truck part time and had to get a loan on my new at the time Winchester stainless classic .338 winny at the pawn shop. I had two buddies that bought them as well. We told everyone we knew to buy one and to a man they all said why would I spend $500 when I can just go buy a deer tag over the counter.

It's nice not having to buy a fishing or small game license either. I plan to be the last man standing with a lifetime license and hunting deer well into my 90's. I guess you guys should have thought ahead. Maybe it's not to late for you to go buy some bitcoin.

Y'all think you hate socialism until it's something that you think affects you directly. Maybe you should come take my primers and powder away as well since I thought ahead on that one too.

Say hello to the BUTTHURT FAIRY for me 😂
 

JakeH

Very Active Member
Messages
2,547
Lmao, exhibit "A" of why i chose to keep quiet.

They are coming for your license bud, it's only a matter of time. Then you can give the butthurt fairy a big ol' kiss from me.
 

Hawkeye

Very Active Member
Messages
2,689
Wow. Talk about "butthurt." Pot, meet kettle!

Bobby, I am not crying about you gettting a general deer tag every year or blaming you and Zeke for destroying our deer herds. You might want to work on your reading comprehension.

Rather, my posts are focused on how can the DWR do right by lifetime licenses holders and still make necessary changes to the our application and bonus point system. Let's face it, the system has changed drastically since 1994 when they stopped selling lifetime licenses and there really are no general units anymore.

Should the DWR continue down the road of of two separate application systems for deer and two points systems? Or should they accept the fact that the whole state is essentially LE now and merge the two systems into a single system? Frankly, I think the state would have already merged the two systems but they are concerned about how to address lifetime licenses. Those are facts. I am predicting that change is coming in the next few years. So if you want to be part of the discussion then feel free to chime in with some constructive suggestions on how to move forward. Or you can throw a fit, accuse everyone else of being jealous crybabies, and refuse to accept reality that change is inevitable.

Despite your tantrum, I still personally believe that the state should look for a compromise that allows them to make necessary changes but still treats lifetime licenses holders fairly. And I am sorry to inform you but that does not mean you automatically get to hunt the Henries every year. :cry:

Hawkeye
 
Last edited:

ridgetops

Very Active Member
Messages
1,863
This thread sure got high jacked. I had the chance to by a lifetime license the year they ended the program. Like deadibob said, there were probably hundreds of guys calling everyone they knew to convince them into buying the LL. A freind of mine called me and was telling me how this would be a great way to "beat the system". We would never have to stand in line again at midnight or if and when the deer hunt goes to a draw. The LL guys will always be first in line. This is what was being sold as a selling point. The idea of buying my way to the front of the line and taking someone else's tag that they never had a chance at getting, didn't sit well with me. Even if I had a ton of money to spend, I'd never buy an auction tag because I believe those tags are being stolen from the average joe and should be in the general public draw, just like the LL tags should be.
 

Delta Bravo

Member
Messages
75
Wow. Talk about "butthurt." Pot, meet kettle!

Bobby, I am not crying about you gettting a general deer tag every year or blaming you and Zeke for destroying our deer herds. You might want to work on your reading comprehension.

Rather, my posts are focused on how can the DWR do right by lifetime licenses holders and still make necessary changes to the our application and bonus point system. Let's face it, the system has changed drastically since 1994 when they stopped selling lifetime licenses and there really are no general units anymore.

Should the DWR continue down the road of of two separate application systems for deer and two points systems? Or should they accept the fact that the whole state is essentially LE now and merge the two systems into a single system? Frankly, I think the state would have already merged the two systems but they are concerned about how to address lifetime licenses. Those are facts. I am predicting that change is coming in the next few years. So if you want to be part of the discussion then feel free to chime in with some constructive suggestions on how to move forward. Or you can throw a fit, accuse everyone else of being jealous crybabies, and refuse to accept reality that change is inevitable.

Despite your tantrum, I still personally believe that the state should look for a compromise that allows them to make necessary changes but still treats lifetime licenses holders fairly. And I am sorry to inform you but that does not mean you automatically get to hunt the Henries every year. :cry:

Hawkeye
Why do the deer draws and hunt types need to be combined? What does that accomplish? You seem to imply that your opinion/idea is the only valid one, based off your posts, so please tell us what biological benefits will come from combining the LE and GS hunts into 1 draw? How will this help declining deer numbers? How will this help opportunity? How will this help hunting recruitment and retention? How will this preserve our strong deer hunting traditions in utah? How would this change benefit everyone? animals included.
 

Hawkeye

Very Active Member
Messages
2,689
Delta-

Those are some good questions. I posted this in the other thread but I thought it might be helpful here to address your questions.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, and I agree that the state needs to find a fair resolution with lifetime license holders. I am just trying to point out the elephant in the room that some people refuse to recognize. The problem is the system has changed drastically since 1994. Lifetime license holders were promised a "General Deer Tag" each year. Guess what? There really are no general units anymore. We still call some deer units "General Units" even though they take 3-4 years/preference points to draw a tag. (Pine Mountain). The reality is that the entire state is now essentially Limited Entry and there are no General Deer tags.

Think about the elk system for a minute. You have Limited Entry units that require you to draw a tag and acquire bonus points and you General Units where you can buy a tag over the counter and hunt in one of several General Units. With regard to elk you have actual LE and General Units. With deer, we really only have LE Units. Sorry to break the bad news. The situation will only get worse as our deer herd numbers continue to drop, tag numbers are reduced, and application numbers increase. At this point, the two separate application systems and the separate BP and PP systems are becoming less useful each year.

So, if we reach a point in the near future where a “General Unit” such as Pine Valley takes 10 years for a resident to draw, is it fair to allow lifetime license holders to automatically get one of those tags every year? And if the state eventually makes the decision to move to a single application system and Bonus Point system for all deer units, is it fair to allow lifetime license holders to automatically pick the tag of their choosing (Henries, Paunsaugunt, etc.)? If you answered "no" to either of those questions, then you should understand where some of us are coming from in asking questions about how to address lifetime licenses in a fair and equitable manner. I don't have all of the answers, but one thing is for sure, change is coming!

Jason
 

Nevadahunter

Active Member
Messages
224
So, if we reach a point in the near future where a “General Unit” such as Pine Valley takes 10 years for a resident to draw, is it fair to allow lifetime license holders to automatically get one of those tags every year?
I watched the Southern Utah RAC meeting last night and when the lady from the DWR said with the current trend analysis residents will be waiting 8-10 years for a Southern Utah deer tag in the next couple years my jaw dropped.
 

Hawkeye

Very Active Member
Messages
2,689
When that happens, will we still call those units “General Units” and guarantee a tag every year to all of the lifetime license holders? 😳 Once again, change is coming so you might as well be part the discussion and help find an equitable solution.
 

Delta Bravo

Member
Messages
75
Delta-

Those are some good questions. I posted this in the other thread but I thought it might be helpful here to address your questions.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, and I agree that the state needs to find a fair resolution with lifetime license holders. I am just trying to point out the elephant in the room that some people refuse to recognize. The problem is the system has changed drastically since 1994. Lifetime license holders were promised a "General Deer Tag" each year. Guess what? There really are no general units anymore. We still call some deer units "General Units" even though they take 3-4 years/preference points to draw a tag. (Pine Mountain). The reality is that the entire state is now essentially Limited Entry and there are no General Deer tags.

Think about the elk system for a minute. You have Limited Entry units that require you to draw a tag and acquire bonus points and you General Units where you can buy a tag over the counter and hunt in one of several General Units. With regard to elk you have actual LE and General Units. With deer, we really only have LE Units. Sorry to break the bad news. The situation will only get worse as our deer herd numbers continue to drop, tag numbers are reduced, and application numbers increase. At this point, the two separate application systems and the separate BP and PP systems are becoming less useful each year.

So, if we reach a point in the near future where a “General Unit” such as Pine Valley takes 10 years for a resident to draw, is it fair to allow lifetime license holders to automatically get one of those tags every year? And if the state eventually makes the decision to move to a single application system and Bonus Point system for all deer units, is it fair to allow lifetime license holders to automatically pick the tag of their choosing (Henries, Paunsaugunt, etc.)? If you answered "no" to either of those questions, then you should understand where some of us are coming from in asking questions about how to address lifetime licenses in a fair and equitable manner. I don't have all of the answers, but one thing is for sure, change is coming!

Jason
Yes, it is fair. They scraped together $500 and made an investment in the future back when they had the chance. We need to quit worrying about what’s ‘fair’ and focus more on what’s ‘right’. And that is to honor the agreement the state made with LL holders when they took their money 30 or so years ago. The state and government expect you to honor the deals you make with them. And hold you accountable for your breech of any contracts you agree to. It’s time we the people, start holding the government accountable for their actions. There isn’t that many LL if you look at the big picture. And I don’t see them taking tags from everyone else or taking opportunities either. We do still have “general units” even if the definition and management techniques have changed over time. Your limited entry units are much more restricted on tag numbers than the general units. If you were to combine all deer hunt types into a single draw, you’d create many more issues than we have now. The way things are going currently aren’t that bad. And I don’t hear hardly anyone calling for a change in the draw and deer hunt structures. It might be a broken system, but we certainly don’t need anymore “fixing”.

until we quit giving our public draw permits to a private organization that pimps them out every year for a profit, stealing countless opportunities and memories from your average hunters, I’m not too concerned with a few LL holders calling dibs on their permits they paid for back before many of us were even out of diapers. There’s 30 general units in the state. Not every LL is going to pick the same unit and take all the tags from the draw quota. The few I personally know pick the less desirable units in the whole state, just cuz it’s where they grew up hunting and draw odds are better for the others in their party to get a tag often.

change does need to happen. But the only change I’m seeing people screaming for does nothing biologically for our animals or fix any issues with the declining animal numbers we are facing. It only changes what people think is “fair” on a social level. We don’t need to manage feelings. We need to manage wildlife and worry about what’s best for them.
 

Hawkeye

Very Active Member
Messages
2,689
Delta, you make some good comments, and I can certainly see both sides of the issue. I guess we will just have to sit back and see what happens. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a simple biological fix to grow our deer herds. Therefore, the future will likely include more debates and tough decisions about how to "fairly" divide up the ever-shrinking pie.

Hawkeye
 

Servehim

Very Active Member
Messages
1,419
Let’s shut down all hunting for the next decade! That will leave more deer for the predators and the automobiles!

Hawkeye
Hawkeye, the Jicarilla Apache tribe totally shut down mule deer hunts for ( I think 5yrs) took on massive predator control programs and Amazingly look whats happened. A success story to celebrate for sure. UTAH has over hunted the mule deer and imo a pause would do wonders for future generations
 

deadibob

Very Active Member
Messages
2,673
Wow. Talk about "butthurt." Pot, meet kettle!

Bobby, I am not crying about you gettting a general deer tag every year or blaming you and Zeke for destroying our deer herds. You might want to work on your reading comprehension.

Rather, my posts are focused on how can the DWR do right by lifetime licenses holders and still make necessary changes to the our application and bonus point system. Let's face it, the system has changed drastically since 1994 when they stopped selling lifetime licenses and there really are no general units anymore.

Should the DWR continue down the road of of two separate application systems for deer and two points systems? Or should they accept the fact that the whole state is essentially LE now and merge the two systems into a single system? Frankly, I think the state would have already merged the two systems but they are concerned about how to address lifetime licenses. Those are facts. I am predicting that change is coming in the next few years. So if you want to be part of the discussion then feel free to chime in with some constructive suggestions on how to move forward. Or you can throw a fit, accuse everyone else of being jealous crybabies, and refuse to accept reality that change is inevitable.

Despite your tantrum, I still personally believe that the state should look for a compromise that allows them to make necessary changes but still treats lifetime licenses holders fairly. And I am sorry to inform you but that does not mean you automatically get to hunt the Henries every year. :cry:

Hawkeye
My reading comprehension is good enough to see that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth in your posts and also when you state your thoughts as fact:
"Frankly, I THINK the state would have already merged the two systems but they are concerned about how to address lifetime licenses. Those are FACTS."
I think that the word FACTS doesn't mean what you think it means:unsure:

The word fair keeps coming up here and fair has nothing to do with the issue. The issue was decided FAIR and square when we paid our money, end of story. Another thing you have brought up more than once is about hunting the Henries or other premium L.E. units. None of us has ever even suggested that to be the case. If I wanted to hunt the Oak Creek unit I could do it every day seeing as I live here and no one would be the wiser but I follow the regulations to a T.

I do hope that everyone here hoping or suggesting that the state somehow buy back our licenses feels the same way about buy backs when Uncle Joe decides to buy back your guns as he has been talking of doing. After all fair is fair and you can't change your stance when it effects you personally.
 

treedagain

Long Time Member
Messages
5,388
Big difference between buying back a license and guns by Biden.
You would still have your lifetime license, small game-fish. You lost your general tag when they went to a DRAW.
Over the counter= general.
Draw= not general.
 

gwp4me2

Member
Messages
5
So wouldn't we still have 2 draw systems? One where all tags go to those with the most points and another that only gives 1/2 the tags to highest points and the others to a random draw? I'm glad I won't be playing any of the game anymore. Give me my last LE archery elk tag this year and I'm moving to the sidelines to fish and hunt small game until the state ruins all that.
 

deadibob

Very Active Member
Messages
2,673
Big difference between buying back a license and guns by Biden.
You would still have your lifetime license, small game-fish. You lost your general tag when they went to a DRAW.
Over the counter= general.
Draw= not general.
No difference at all. Biden's still gonna let you keep your ten round mags if you can pass a psychological evaluation by a shrink of the Attorney Generals choosing.
 

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