60 Years of Utah Deer Hunting Observation

[cannonball]

Over these last 60 years, I have hunted deer in Utah from Ogden Canyon to Waweep/Paunsaugunt and most everything in-between and here are my observations. Most hunting was done on the Pahvant, Fishlake, boulder, and Monroe. In the earlier years, these areas were a 14-day hunt and it was over. No bow hunt, 2 permits were issued for elk on the Fishlake. There were no elk on Monroe nor Pahvant. On the 20th of October, almost all of the deer were on top of the mountain until the hunters had pushed them the first week to the lower elevations. Then you could find a few bucks in the foothills. There were deer everywhere - no empty holes like you see now. It was commonplace to see 20 to 40 buck in one herd, especially on the Pahvant mountain. Most hunters had a lever-action Winchester 30-30 and no scope. Most private land was open to everyone. Taxidermy was done by putting sawdust in a bleached skull and most looked terrible. Probably 95% of hunters cared less about even keeping the horns. They were meat hunters. Any guide service was non-existent or nearly so in Utah.

Yip, you've got it. 14 days and you were done hunting. My observation is that there were 10 times the deer in Utah then than now. Elk are now doing marvelous - Deer are suffering regardless what your are told. I've seen this coming for many years. I really think the deer numbers are a white-wash job. The shame of it. All of the deer on the mountain are being hunted so much, that the whole herd ends up around the towns. The town and valley people see them and think there are too many deer. If fact I was told that just the other day when a friend, who built in the farmland had three deer in his field said they need to shot. They were eating his newly planted trees.

Any way I can take most anything, but these BS deer numbers are hard to swallow. I am sure there are some of you old-timers out there who have some experiences with deer hunts from the old days.

 

[Tikka]

I was talking to my boys the other day about our beloved mule deer...

Well I believe what I said above maybe true we "all of us" love mule deer to death...

Nonstop harassment and I think they cant take that amount of stress well...

So cannonball your "14 day's and you were done" probably had a lot to do with the health of the herds...

 

[cannonball]

Then: 14 days chasing deer from the top of the mountains to the foothills.

Now: 90 days chasing deer and elk along with more predators pushing them down further, and finally our beloved DWR saying we have too many deer because the farmers have the total deer herd in their field

I will let you come to your own conclusion.

It would take a blind man not to see what is happening!!!!

 

[Castnshoot]

Cannonball, I am about 15 years behind you,, but I hear you.

At the latest Wildlife Board meeting one of the board members warned the whole of the many DWR wildlife biologists to beware of being influenced by any ?coffee shop ? opinions.

They would tell you that what you know to be the truth,,,is just some old guys opinion. So there in lies the problem.

 

[cantkillathing]

I wish somebody with money would put a law suite against the DWR about false advertising, maybe then something would change.

 

[cannonball]

>Cannonball, I am about 15 years
>behind you,, but I hear
>you.
>
>At the latest Wildlife Board meeting
>one of the board members
>warned the whole of the
>many DWR wildlife biologists
>to beware of being influenced
>by any ?coffee shop ?
>opinions.
>
>They would tell you that what
>you know to be the
>truth,,,is just some old guys
>opinion. So there in lies
>the problem.

I know. The young age and closed minds doesn't leave any room for an old person's opinion in their language. Oh well! I believe I have all my marbles and when 100% of those old people who hunted during that time all had the same picture just maybe someone would listen. I guess not.

To change the point of conversation. With all those cameras on every waterhole. If you are not seeing at least 52 different deer for every different cougar you are taking a picture off, there is no room for you to hunt in the mountains. Rule of thumb is that a cougar eats one deer a week.

Guess I'll go back to sleep now.

 

[notdonhunting]

I will agree with what you are saying the pressure for the amount of time is significant and the growth of the elk herd has a considerable effect on the deer herd. But What I remember it was possible to kill two bucks but one had to be with a primitive weapon and you could hunt Archery or Blackpowder and still hunt Rifle I can not remember the exact year but I think it was 1985 that they stopped this practice. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[fullthrottle]

Huh, I'm not that old, but I'm old enough to know the deer numbers are horrible compared to what they used to be. Early 80?s when I was a kid sitting in a tree stand with dad. I remember numerous times Having groups of 6, 8,10 bucks walk right under the tree. It seemed like we always had deer coming under the tree. Now days you are lucky if you have a few doe?s come under. Everywhere you went you saw deer. I remember going out to the winter range around thanksgiving and seeing tons of deer and numerous big mature bucks. Scouting in the summertime if you didn't see 40 bucks a day driving the roads, you were scratching you're head wondering where the deer were. Now days if you see a mature buck it's surprising. Anyone who thinks the deer numbers are even ok right now, doesn't have a clue.

 

[ISO_Joe]

I think I saw more deer (does and fawns) this year than any other years I have hunted. I think the deer heards are fine just to many bucks getting shot. With hunting becoming more popular and the population in utah going up the greed has also. To many tags are being issued and to much pressure is my guess..

 

[fullthrottle]

Huh ?deer herds are just fine? interesting take. What do you other guys/gals think? Does the deer herd seem just fine to you?

 

[hossblur]

So, now let's finish T HE OP.

250,000 tags. Not saying hunters because im old enough to remember how many "grandma shot".

Absolute war on predators including poisoning. Which will never happen again.

Winter range. 1/2 is covered in houses.

60 years ago how was the freeway?

Like the man said he hunted STATEWIDE. There wasn't LE. There especially wasn't CWMU. Which has artificially concentrated hunters onto smaller areas.

I'd agree with tech and guides.

But simple reality is Utah can't hold 800k deer. We get even a slightly rough winter and we get horrific winter kill because there ain't winter range. And there sure ain't flatland to escape.

I don't buy the numbers, but mostly because they include land that isn't huntable. Take out non huntable land. LE, and CWMU, and those are the real numbers.

But pull up a map from 60years ago, and one from today. Look only at the acreage LE covers, it ain't hard to see why it's a "pumpkin army" every year. Now add to that cities expanding, and CWMU, and it's pretty easy to see why "your area" is crowded.

We have lost acres to cities and freeways.

But they ain't close to the areas LE and CWMU swallow.

In short. We sacrificed places like the fishlake and Manti, so very few could hunt Deseret and Henry's.

We cut another 30k tags, but create 10 more CWMU, we gained nothing.

You want better deer, grow more does.

You want better hunting, open more access.

Utah is doing the opposite.

But the rub is, IT AINT THE BIOLOGISTS THATT CREATED THIS MESS, ITS THE WB.

Enjoy the expo. When You see all the mounts, DONT WONDER how deer hunting is bad for average folks but for THE SPECIAL folks things seem great.

Just play the lotto.

From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[Vanilla]

I didn't hunt on my own tag this year at all. Just didn't have time. I helped two other deer tag holders this year In different seasons and everywhere I was at on those two hunts was told told ?this is the worst we've seen it here.? All the while I thought we were seeing pretty good numbers of deer and I was impressed overall with the numbers.

The size of bucks (or lack thereof) was a little bit surprising to me, but not terribly far off from what I expected.

I also went up with my brother for one day on his archery tag and we saw decent number of deer and a couple nice ones just before dark that we never got a chance at.

That was my personal experience in three different areas of the state this year.

 

[Vanilla]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-19 AT 07:19PM (MST)[p]I remember a day hunting on Wasatch East several years ago where I hiked down a small canyon and set up in the dark watching a funnel area through a decent sized clearing. I sat and counted every deer that walked through. There was more than 120 deer I watched in just a couple hours. I was blown away! Not a single buck with antlers. Not even a spike, a forky, or anything. Only does and fawns. I don't remember what year that was. My guess is 5 years ago?

I thought that was really weird to not even see a small buck come through with that many deer. It's one thing to see a dozen deer and no bucks, but 120+ in the same place and not a buck?

 

[hogg_65]

How many hunters, hunted the United Sportsmen properties? Aren't all those properties now cwmu?? I'm asking because i'm not sure. I know people that used to hunt those U.S properties and they talk about the good hunting and also a lot of hunters. I agree with those statements above. There is a lot of places us general tag holders cant touch anymore.

 

[Vanilla]

>How many hunters, hunted the United
>Sportsmen properties? Aren't all those
>properties now cwmu?? I'm asking
>because i'm not sure.
>I know people that used
>to hunt those U.S properties
>and they talk about the
>good hunting and also a
>lot of hunters. I agree
>with those statements above. There
>is a lot of places
>us general tag holders cant
>touch anymore.


My dad had access to a large United Sportsman property up Chalk Creek before it became United Sportsman. I was a little jammer, but those were the days! Then people figured out how to market the deer.

 

[hossblur]

>How many hunters, hunted the United
>Sportsmen properties? Aren't all those
>properties now cwmu?? I'm asking
>because i'm not sure.
>I know people that used
>to hunt those U.S properties
>and they talk about the
>good hunting and also a
>lot of hunters. I agree
>with those statements above. There
>is a lot of places
>us general tag holders cant
>touch anymore.

My in-laws used to hunt chalk creek US. Until the boys got old enough to hunt. Too expensive, so they moved to kind as.

Simple solution is blow up CWMU. Landowners can sell all the trespass fees they want. BUT, they are under the same seasons as ever one else, AND their hunters are subject to the SAME rules in regards to WAITING PERIODS.

Without those super liberal seasons, and guaranteed return clients year after year the landowner would have to COMPETE(interesting concept) for business same way EVERY OTHER BUISNESS DOES.

Superior product
Superior service
PRICING

The landowner would be able to HIRE guides, or not, BUT ONLY the land owner. To sell a trespass pass you have to own land, no leases to guides.

Competition keeps prices in "check", not having guaranteed clientele because of guaranteed tags means opening possible access, thus spreading out pressure.

And we don't have to cut A SINGLE tag to accomplish that.

We just cut off the sweetheart deals.






From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[Vanilla]

>Simple solution is blow up CWMU.
> Landowners can sell all
>the trespass fees they want.
> BUT, they are under
>the same seasons as ever
>one else, AND their hunters
>are subject to the SAME
>rules in regards to WAITING
>PERIODS.
>
>Without those super liberal seasons, and
>guaranteed return clients year after
>year the landowner would have
>to COMPETE(interesting concept) for business
>same way EVERY OTHER BUISNESS
>DOES.
>
>Superior product
>Superior service
>PRICING
>
>The landowner would be able to
>HIRE guides, or not, BUT
>ONLY the land owner.
>To sell a trespass pass
>you have to own land,
>no leases to guides.
>
>Competition keeps prices in "check", not
>having guaranteed clientele because of
>guaranteed tags means opening possible
>access, thus spreading out pressure.
>
>
>And we don't have to cut
>A SINGLE tag to accomplish
>that.
>
>We just cut off the sweetheart
>deals.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.

I've always been a supporter of the CWMU program because I feel like it's a win-win. Animals get hunted, landowners get a benefit, and the public benefits too. Of course, there are scales of benefit involved, but I do believe the program is a win-win. I'm curious how what you describe would go. I'm not sure it would be as clean as you say as there are A LOT of dominoes to fall if you went down that hole that are not accounted for above in your post.

Landowners tags. Deprivation claims. Just to name a couple. You?ve got me thinking, though. I wonder what the world would look like as you describe it after things leveled out?

 

[cannonball]

>Cannonball, I am about 15 years
>behind you,, but I hear
>you.
>
>At the latest Wildlife Board meeting
>one of the board members
>warned the whole of the
>many DWR wildlife biologists
>to beware of being influenced
>by any ?coffee shop ?
>opinions.
>
>They would tell you that what
>you know to be the
>truth,,,is just some old guys
>opinion. So there in lies
>the problem.

Actually "coffee shop" talk is most what you have from the experts. I guess it is really called "book shop" from the same unversity that studied that coyotes don't eat sheep - that those stacked rock formations were put there by the Fremont Indians, when in reality Lorenzo put them up years ago. In other words help us all from that wildlife board member and the obvious.

 

[deadibob]

>I think I saw more deer
>(does and fawns) this year
>than any other years I
>have hunted. I think the
>deer heards are fine just
>to many bucks getting shot.
>With hunting becoming more popular
>and the population in utah
>going up the greed has
>also. To many tags are
>being issued and to much
>pressure is my guess..


This is a very minority opinion. Sometimes the stars align though and you see a few does and fawns still.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller!

Just FYI!

CWMU's are Big Business!

Which = Big Money!

Maybe Hoss could add them to the $FW List?











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Mbogo]

Pressure on the resource will only get worse.
60 years ago Utah's population was around 900k.
Now it's over 3 million.

 

[Vanilla]

Bess, you talk to me like I don't know anything. I'm going to hunt you down at the expo and tip over your walker!

I've been around a day or two and seen a thing or two.

 

[hossblur]

>
>>Simple solution is blow up CWMU.
>> Landowners can sell all
>>the trespass fees they want.
>> BUT, they are under
>>the same seasons as ever
>>one else, AND their hunters
>>are subject to the SAME
>>rules in regards to WAITING
>>PERIODS.
>>
>>Without those super liberal seasons, and
>>guaranteed return clients year after
>>year the landowner would have
>>to COMPETE(interesting concept) for business
>>same way EVERY OTHER BUISNESS
>>DOES.
>>
>>Superior product
>>Superior service
>>PRICING
>>
>>The landowner would be able to
>>HIRE guides, or not, BUT
>>ONLY the land owner.
>>To sell a trespass pass
>>you have to own land,
>>no leases to guides.
>>
>>Competition keeps prices in "check", not
>>having guaranteed clientele because of
>>guaranteed tags means opening possible
>>access, thus spreading out pressure.
>>
>>
>>And we don't have to cut
>>A SINGLE tag to accomplish
>>that.
>>
>>We just cut off the sweetheart
>>deals.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>>PUBLIC LAND.
>
>I've always been a supporter of
>the CWMU program because I
>feel like it's a win-win.
>Animals get hunted, landowners get
>a benefit, and the public
>benefits too. Of course, there
>are scales of benefit involved,
>but I do believe the
>program is a win-win. I'm
>curious how what you describe
>would go. I'm not sure
>it would be as clean
>as you say as there
>are A LOT of dominoes
>to fall if you went
>down that hole that are
>not accounted for above in
>your post.
>
>Landowners tags. Deprivation claims. Just to
>name a couple. You?ve got
>me thinking, though. I wonder
>what the world would look
>like as you describe it
>after things leveled out?


It would look a lot like it did pre CWMU.

You look at tags.

Dude X will spend all winter shopping at the banquets. If he doesn't snag a tag he then puts in the draws.

If he doesn't draw, he goes shopping again.

Why do we have a system where you and I are subject to WAITING PERIODS, but then another system to buy around them.

Who is it really a win win for? These CWMUs are just private hunting club's. No different than a high fence area, only high fence areas actually BUY their animals. CWMU just attract from outside via pressure regulation, (or helicopter). Proof of that is all the smaller CWMU that surround Deseret trying to suck animals off it.

They can allow for rest days because they have 2-3months so there is no hurry.

Last. How many are ACTUALLY run by owners? The vast majority are leased to a subcontractor who then is given the same deal, without actually owning an acre.

Can I buy a lease on the Manti that will allow me 3 month hunting? Or the ability to sell my tag at an upcharge?" Why is the guide?

Last. The DWR actually encourages CWMU creation. While Montana pushes block management. Utah pushes fences and gates.


Last, last.

Times change. When it started Utah was rural. It ain't no more. Access is of more value than tags. The state should be focused on access.




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[elkassassin]

>Bess, you talk to me like
>I don't know anything. I'm
>going to hunt you down
>at the expo and tip
>over your walker!
>
>I've been around a day or
>two and seen a thing
>or two.

Did You Tell Hoss You attend the EXPO'S?









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Vanilla]

Difference is I've never paid to get in, and never will!

They do get some of my app fees though, begrudgingly. I still am 100% in favor of ending the welfare entitlement system known as conservation and expo tags. Put every one of them back in the public draw.

 

[elkassassin]

>Difference is I've never paid to
>get in, and never will!
>
>
>They do get some of my
>app fees though, begrudgingly. I
>still am 100% in favor
>of ending the welfare entitlement
>system known as conservation and
>expo tags. Put every one
>of them back in the
>public draw.

I'm Not against what you & Hoss are Saying Niller!

But How You gonna change it?









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Vanilla]

It's going to take a major philosophical change at the top. Meaning, in the governor?s mansion. And I'm not just talking a new governor, but a governor with a very different philosophy on wildlife management for the state than what we've had. When that philosophical change takes place, we can start making the philosophical change on the Wildlife Board. Then we can change the underlying issues that are symptoms of the larger problem with the philosophy.

 

[elkassassin]

>It's going to take a major
>philosophical change at the top.
>Meaning, in the governor?s mansion.
>And I'm not just talking
>a new governor, but a
>governor with a very different
>philosophy on wildlife management for
>the state than what we've
>had. When that philosophical change
>takes place, we can start
>making the philosophical change on
>the Wildlife Board. Then we
>can change the underlying issues
>that are symptoms of the
>larger problem with the philosophy.
>

So Niller?

You're Sayin We need some EX-COMMUNICATION?











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[ridgetops]

Just about everything in our lives has changed in a big way from 60 years ago.
Hasn't it?
I do agree with you about the counts being off.

 

[hossblur]

>>Difference is I've never paid to
>>get in, and never will!
>>
>>
>>They do get some of my
>>app fees though, begrudgingly. I
>>still am 100% in favor
>>of ending the welfare entitlement
>>system known as conservation and
>>expo tags. Put every one
>>of them back in the
>>public draw.
>
>I'm Not against what you &
>Hoss are Saying Niller!
>
>But How You gonna change it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!


Go look at $fw website. Took them about 3 min to post up the revenue and gate.(25yrs still can't quite do the accounting).

When the contract came up, $fw sold some bullshit about RMEF can't produce the numbers like $fw could.

DONT GO.

And ya they are using you tag guys head count. That's why you have to go to do it, whether you pay to get in or not.

The expo, losing attendance year after year is the most visible way to show YOU DONT SUPPORT $fw, which will carry weight when the next WB spot comes up.

Going to do tags "buy not paying to get in", is like an alcoholic who "only drinks beer".

"I'm possessed. Let's cut tags. Let's shut down the season".

Great. How about start with NOT playing the lotto?

"Oh, no, i can't do that. I got a .0000000000005% chance at a tag. Gonna drop $300 for the chance"

Bess. When you are serious about management, send us a pic of you on your porch during the expo, I'll believe your serious




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[elkassassin]

>>>Difference is I've never paid to
>>>get in, and never will!
>>>
>>>
>>>They do get some of my
>>>app fees though, begrudgingly. I
>>>still am 100% in favor
>>>of ending the welfare entitlement
>>>system known as conservation and
>>>expo tags. Put every one
>>>of them back in the
>>>public draw.
>>
>>I'm Not against what you &
>>Hoss are Saying Niller!
>>
>>But How You gonna change it?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I know so many people in
>>so many places
>>They make allot of money but
>>they got sad faces
>>
>>It Ain't Easy being Me!
>
>
>Go look at $fw website.
>Took them about 3 min
>to post up the revenue
>and gate.(25yrs still can't quite
>do the accounting).
>
>When the contract came up, $fw
>sold some bullshit about RMEF
>can't produce the numbers like
>$fw could.
>
>DONT GO.
>
>And ya they are using you
>tag guys head count.
>That's why you have to
>go to do it, whether
>you pay to get in
>or not.
>
>The expo, losing attendance year after
>year is the most visible
>way to show YOU DONT
>SUPPORT $fw, which will carry
>weight when the next WB
>spot comes up.
>
>Going to do tags "buy not
>paying to get in", is
>like an alcoholic who "only
>drinks beer".
>
>"I'm possessed. Let's cut tags.
> Let's shut down the
>season".
>
>Great. How about start with
>NOT playing the lotto?
>
>"Oh, no, i can't do that.
> I got a .0000000000005%
>chance at a tag.
>Gonna drop $300 for the
>chance"
>
>Bess. When you are serious
>about management, send us a
>pic of you on your
>porch during the expo, I'll
>believe your serious

So Hoss?

I'm the Only Problem?

It Will Only Take 'Me' Alone Not going to the EXPO?

And one More thing Hoss,You are WRONG,There Ain't No F'N Way My Odds are that Good!
>
>
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[BeDawg]

I think a great start would be to wage war on predators and not deer. That would be a start. Eliminating carnivores from the complex mule deer decline equation would be a great start.

 

[hossblur]

>>>>Difference is I've never paid to
>>>>get in, and never will!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>They do get some of my
>>>>app fees though, begrudgingly. I
>>>>still am 100% in favor
>>>>of ending the welfare entitlement
>>>>system known as conservation and
>>>>expo tags. Put every one
>>>>of them back in the
>>>>public draw.
>>>
>>>I'm Not against what you &
>>>Hoss are Saying Niller!
>>>
>>>But How You gonna change it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I know so many people in
>>>so many places
>>>They make allot of money but
>>>they got sad faces
>>>
>>>It Ain't Easy being Me!
>>
>>
>>Go look at $fw website.
>>Took them about 3 min
>>to post up the revenue
>>and gate.(25yrs still can't quite
>>do the accounting).
>>
>>When the contract came up, $fw
>>sold some bullshit about RMEF
>>can't produce the numbers like
>>$fw could.
>>
>>DONT GO.
>>
>>And ya they are using you
>>tag guys head count.
>>That's why you have to
>>go to do it, whether
>>you pay to get in
>>or not.
>>
>>The expo, losing attendance year after
>>year is the most visible
>>way to show YOU DONT
>>SUPPORT $fw, which will carry
>>weight when the next WB
>>spot comes up.
>>
>>Going to do tags "buy not
>>paying to get in", is
>>like an alcoholic who "only
>>drinks beer".
>>
>>"I'm possessed. Let's cut tags.
>> Let's shut down the
>>season".
>>
>>Great. How about start with
>>NOT playing the lotto?
>>
>>"Oh, no, i can't do that.
>> I got a .0000000000005%
>>chance at a tag.
>>Gonna drop $300 for the
>>chance"
>>
>>Bess. When you are serious
>>about management, send us a
>>pic of you on your
>>porch during the expo, I'll
>>believe your serious
>
> So Hoss?
>
>I'm the Only Problem?
>
>It Will Only Take 'Me' Alone
>Not going to the EXPO?
>
>
>And one More thing Hoss,You are
>WRONG,There Ain't No F'N Way
>My Odds are that Good!
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>>PUBLIC LAND.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!



Your the most vocal.

Plus I know you don't take crap wrong and wet yourself if someone uses your name

From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[elkassassin]

>>>>>Difference is I've never paid to
>>>>>get in, and never will!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>They do get some of my
>>>>>app fees though, begrudgingly. I
>>>>>still am 100% in favor
>>>>>of ending the welfare entitlement
>>>>>system known as conservation and
>>>>>expo tags. Put every one
>>>>>of them back in the
>>>>>public draw.
>>>>
>>>>I'm Not against what you &
>>>>Hoss are Saying Niller!
>>>>
>>>>But How You gonna change it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I know so many people in
>>>>so many places
>>>>They make allot of money but
>>>>they got sad faces
>>>>
>>>>It Ain't Easy being Me!
>>>
>>>
>>>Go look at $fw website.
>>>Took them about 3 min
>>>to post up the revenue
>>>and gate.(25yrs still can't quite
>>>do the accounting).
>>>
>>>When the contract came up, $fw
>>>sold some bullshit about RMEF
>>>can't produce the numbers like
>>>$fw could.
>>>
>>>DONT GO.
>>>
>>>And ya they are using you
>>>tag guys head count.
>>>That's why you have to
>>>go to do it, whether
>>>you pay to get in
>>>or not.
>>>
>>>The expo, losing attendance year after
>>>year is the most visible
>>>way to show YOU DONT
>>>SUPPORT $fw, which will carry
>>>weight when the next WB
>>>spot comes up.
>>>
>>>Going to do tags "buy not
>>>paying to get in", is
>>>like an alcoholic who "only
>>>drinks beer".
>>>
>>>"I'm possessed. Let's cut tags.
>>> Let's shut down the
>>>season".
>>>
>>>Great. How about start with
>>>NOT playing the lotto?
>>>
>>>"Oh, no, i can't do that.
>>> I got a .0000000000005%
>>>chance at a tag.
>>>Gonna drop $300 for the
>>>chance"
>>>
>>>Bess. When you are serious
>>>about management, send us a
>>>pic of you on your
>>>porch during the expo, I'll
>>>believe your serious
>>
>> So Hoss?
>>
>>I'm the Only Problem?
>>
>>It Will Only Take 'Me' Alone
>>Not going to the EXPO?
>>
>>
>>And one More thing Hoss,You are
>>WRONG,There Ain't No F'N Way
>>My Odds are that Good!
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>>>PUBLIC LAND.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I know so many people in
>>so many places
>>They make allot of money but
>>they got sad faces
>>
>>It Ain't Easy being Me!
>
>
>
>Your the most vocal.

Well Maybe!

But the Most Alerted around here as Well!


>
>Plus I know you don't take
>crap wrong and wet yourself
>if someone uses your name
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[notdonhunting]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-19 AT 08:26PM (MST)[p]So from what I understand if you do not support large scale tag decreases, you hat deer and do not care about our children and grandchildren's future.
If you you attend the hunting Expo you are for the destruction of game managment.
I guess I am a bad person.

It amazes me guys post ideas that might make a difference in the deer numbers and help improve mature bucks but because they are not exactly the ideas of the loudest posters (guys that post in capitals and guys that post one line sentences or attack anyone that opposes there views) there ideas are left in the dust.
Maybe guys just like to have an opportunity to hunt and are not worried about killing the next 200 incher and maybe guys really do like the Western Hunting Expo and think it is not a bad thing having SFW and Muley Deer Foundation run the show.
I do believe changes need to happen to help improve the deer numbers but no one has identified the reason the deer numbers has took such a drastic hit over the past 20 years.
The DWR tried antler point restriction back in the 1980s it did not make a difference, the DRW has decreased tag numbers dramatically over the last 30 years has not maide a difference, the DWR has implemented smaller hunt units around 10 years ago has not made a difference, the DWR is improving range conditions over the last 20 years has not made a difference.
Why do you think anyone would support more of the same.
Lose opportunity and make smaller units that you can hunt.
When someone asks why do that you all say "BECAUSE WE GOT TO DO SOMETHING".
We need to identify the problems it might be all the problems elkassasin listed but it needs to he identified and then work on the ones we can change.
The first problem I identify is the number of elk.
Know tell me how I am wrong.

 

[elkassassin]

>LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-19
>AT 08:26?PM (MST)
>
>So from what I understand if
>you do not support large
>scale tag decreases, you hat
>deer and do not care
>about our children and grandchildren's
>future.
>If you you attend the hunting
>Expo you are for the
>destruction of game managment.
>I guess I am a bad
>person.
>
>It amazes me guys post ideas
>that might make a difference
>in the deer numbers and
>help improve mature bucks but
>because they are not exactly
>the ideas of the loudest
>posters (guys that post in
>capitals and guys that post
>one line sentences or attack
>anyone that opposes there views)
>there ideas are left in
>the dust.
>Maybe guys just like to have
>an opportunity to hunt and
>are not worried about killing
>the next 200 incher and
>maybe guys really do like
>the Western Hunting Expo and
>think it is not a
>bad thing having SFW and
>Muley Deer Foundation run the
>show.
>I do believe changes need to
>happen to help improve the
>deer numbers but no one
>has identified the reason the
>deer numbers has took such
>a drastic hit over the
>past 20 years.
>The DWR tried antler point restriction
>back in the 1980s it
>did not make a difference,
>the DRW has decreased tag
>numbers dramatically over the last
>30 years has not maide
>a difference, the DWR has
>implemented smaller hunt units around
>10 years ago has not
>made a difference, the DWR
>is improving range conditions over
>the last 20 years has
>not made a difference.
>Why do you think anyone would
>support more of the same.
>
>Lose opportunity and make smaller units
>that you can hunt.
>When someone asks why do that
>you all say "BECAUSE WE
>GOT TO DO SOMETHING".
>We need to identify the problems
>it might be all the
>problems elkassasin listed but it
>needs to he identified and
>then work on the ones
>we can change.
>The first problem I identify is
>the number of elk.
>Know tell me how I am
>wrong.

Hey notdon!

My List is only a Fraction of what needs done/changed!

There Will NEVER be enough Changes made to bring it back!

Like I've said for years:

When 2 Points become the Cream of the Crop there will Be People Parading them around town like they're some kind of a Trophy!

SAD!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[notdonhunting]

The second item I would identify is highway mortality.
My brother drives a 40 mile stretch of highway every morning for work. A year ago there was 7 deer that was hanging out off the side of the highway. Every other morning or so there would be one of them deer hit by a vehicle this went on for about two weeks until there was only two deer left and then the two remaining deer moved on. The point of the story is if deer are around highways very much there is not going to be very many survive.

 

[Vanilla]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-19 AT 11:48PM (MST)[p]>I do believe changes need to
>happen to help improve the
>deer numbers but no one
>has identified the reason the
>deer numbers has took such
>a drastic hit over the
>past 20 years.
>The DWR tried antler point restriction
>back in the 1980s it
>did not make a difference,
>the DRW has decreased tag
>numbers dramatically over the last
>30 years has not maide
>a difference, the DWR has
>implemented smaller hunt units around
>10 years ago has not
>made a difference, the DWR
>is improving range conditions over
>the last 20 years has
>not made a difference.
>Why do you think anyone would
>support more of the same.
>
>Lose opportunity and make smaller units
>that you can hunt.
>When someone asks why do that
>you all say "BECAUSE WE
>GOT TO DO SOMETHING".
>We need to identify the problems
>it might be all the
>problems


This. THIS! We hear the shouts of trying to do the same stuff we've been doing that hasn't worked for 30 years. It's kind of comical to see people bash the DWR for poor management, then demand they do things they already tried and it didn't work. If we don't identify the limiting factor(s), we'll just keep doing things that don't work.


>The first problem I identify is
>the number of elk.
>Know tell me how I am
>wrong.


Okay, I will. I personally believe that is wrong.

 

[Vanilla]

>The second item I would identify
>is highway mortality.
>My brother drives a 40 mile
>stretch of highway every morning
>for work. A year ago
>there was 7 deer that
>was hanging out off the
>side of the highway. Every
>other morning or so there
>would be one of them
>deer hit by a vehicle
>this went on for about
>two weeks until there was
>only two deer left and
>then the two remaining deer
>moved on. The point of
>the story is if deer
>are around highways very much
>there is not going to
>be very many survive.

This to me seems like the largest problem we have the ability to fix. I would put it at number one across the state. We don't only need fencing, though. Our highways are cutting off important historical migration routes and putting deer in peril when they're simply trying to access vital winter ranges. We need fencing with wildlife underpasses or overpasses. These have proven to work.

But, and this is a big ?but,? who is going to pay for it? Just take that 40 miles of highway you mentioned. How much would it cost to do 40 miles of wildlife fencing with 10 wildlife underpasses? That would put one only every 4 miles. Would we need more than 10? I'd be interested to know how much just that short piece of highway you described would cost? Let alone the hundreds, or thousands of miles of highways this would be needed on around the state. I think it's a great idea, but the money has to come from somewhere.

 

[hossblur]

>LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-19
>AT 08:26?PM (MST)
>
>So from what I understand if
>you do not support large
>scale tag decreases, you hat
>deer and do not care
>about our children and grandchildren's
>future.
>If you you attend the hunting
>Expo you are for the
>destruction of game managment.
>I guess I am a bad
>person.
>
>It amazes me guys post ideas
>that might make a difference
>in the deer numbers and
>help improve mature bucks but
>because they are not exactly
>the ideas of the loudest
>posters (guys that post in
>capitals and guys that post
>one line sentences or attack
>anyone that opposes there views)
>there ideas are left in
>the dust.
>Maybe guys just like to have
>an opportunity to hunt and
>are not worried about killing
>the next 200 incher and
>maybe guys really do like
>the Western Hunting Expo and
>think it is not a
>bad thing having SFW and
>Muley Deer Foundation run the
>show.
>I do believe changes need to
>happen to help improve the
>deer numbers but no one
>has identified the reason the
>deer numbers has took such
>a drastic hit over the
>past 20 years.
>The DWR tried antler point restriction
>back in the 1980s it
>did not make a difference,
>the DRW has decreased tag
>numbers dramatically over the last
>30 years has not maide
>a difference, the DWR has
>implemented smaller hunt units around
>10 years ago has not
>made a difference, the DWR
>is improving range conditions over
>the last 20 years has
>not made a difference.
>Why do you think anyone would
>support more of the same.
>
>Lose opportunity and make smaller units
>that you can hunt.
>When someone asks why do that
>you all say "BECAUSE WE
>GOT TO DO SOMETHING".
>We need to identify the problems
>it might be all the
>problems elkassasin listed but it
>needs to he identified and
>then work on the ones
>we can change.
>The first problem I identify is
>the number of elk.
>Know tell me how I am
>wrong.


The DWR isn't just some independent group. They are controlled by the WB which is appointed by the governor.

The same governor who Peay drools over, takes hunting, mows his lawn, etc.

Thus, $fw has the majority vote. That's without the RAC which is again comprised of $fw.

Now. Where does Peay get all that money to "lobby" the governor? Where does the money come for campaign contributions? Where does the PR money come from?

It ain't from Peay personal budget. Ain't from a bake sale.

The governor knows ONLY what he is being told.

He sees the expo as a raging success. 54,000 folks attended. $8.1 million. The naysayers even show up(BHA).

Hunting in Utah is BIG BUISNESS

54,000 people think it's worth showing up, in February to "support" it.

So. When those WB seats come open, why wouldn't you fill it with $fw folks. 54,000 folks think it's the way to go.

Tell me I'm wrong notdon.

As for elk. I agree. They are detrimental to deer, especially on winter range that is marginal. But, so what?

Highways are by far the biggest killer. I disagree some with Vanilla. Random overpasses aren't effective.

However. We see Wyoming migration work, I think they do need to be targeted at migration pinch points.

As to where the money comes from. Missouri passed a sales tax to fund wildlife. I know where $250,000 could come from. Could probably find $3.75 from those lotto tickets you guy buy.

If only there was a process by which 200 tags get sold and ALL the money goes to a project like this. You know. If there was a WB that didn't make sure a special interest group had a funding mechanism making themselves viable.


PERHAPS IF DUDES QUIT FUNDING THAT SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP. They wouldn't have the clout to load the WB. And tgen maybe, just maybe, a different idea, or path might come about.

What did you expect.?

Did you think the special interest group that has been "saving the mule deer" for 30years was gonna come out and say they failed. That we need to change direction? That they were wrong?

YOU SERIOUSLY ARE DELUSIONAL.

Change don't start with a biologist. Change starts with leadership. WHO IS IN CHARGE? HOW DID TGEY GET THERE?

Enjoy the 80's country. Enjoy your Chaffetz. Fanboy Doyle.



But hey.


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[Vanilla]

Am I as ?delusional? on this as I was when telling you to be careful about BHA? Just wondering how right I'm going to be on this one too???

Best part of your post is you say you disagreed with me on something I didn't even say! You just can't write a better story than your posts sometimes. I'd say you just can't make this crap up, but then you go ahead and do I just that, make crap up. At least you stick to your script.

 

[elkassassin]

And There You Have it!

Fellow Sportsmen Arguing Amongst their-selves,Again!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[elkassassin]

So Niller?

You gonna Post a few other Problems with the Deer Herd?









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Vanilla]

Bessy, what the heck have YOU been doing on this very topic if it's not arguing amongst other sportsmen?

Sometimes you make me feel as if I'm eating crazy pills.

 

[hossblur]

>Am I as ?delusional? on this
>as I was when telling
>you to be careful about
>BHA? Just wondering how right
>I'm going to be on
>this one too???
>
>Best part of your post is
>you say you disagreed with
>me on something I didn't
>even say! You just can't
>write a better story than
>your posts sometimes. I'd say
>you just can't make this
>crap up, but then you
>go ahead and do I
>just that, make crap up.
>At least you stick to
>your script.


Learn to read.

I said if guys, in this case notdon think the same group that have been raking in millions "saving the mule deer" are going to admit failure and push THEIR WB to change course "your delusional".

I actually was agreeing with pretty much all you'd been saying.

BHA was the example I used.

HOWEVER, I could list about 15+ "hunting celebs", 20 or so companies who yap about public lands, North American Model, etc, then show up to kiss the ring as well.


And. I'll include every guy in here who bitched, complains, mashes teeth about "it's all about money", "no one will sacrifice", "it's all for the rich", etc, yet 1 weekend in Feb they get amnesia.





From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[OpeningDay]

As long as those (200) tags are part of the expo, the expo will live on forever. Like Bessy, there are far too many people playing that lottery. I would wager that its a fairly easy boycott if those tags were not in play.

 

[hossblur]

I agree. But that's the rub. Dudes in here calling for tag cuts, but those same guys can't even stay away from lotto tags.

So what they want is SOMEONE ELSE to not have a tag.

Or, they can draw a GS tag, then cut it up. No deer gets killed, less pumpkins, DWR still gets revenue.

But again. Just like democrats that call for tax increases but take deductions, the BESS crowd doesn't do it. I wonder why?

They don't believe their own ideas and plans?

Bess, muley73, and how many others want cuts. How about they lead the way.

We can even do a hashtag

#savindeer,

They can post IG pics, Tim tok vids of them cutting their tags up.

Or, they can support $fw, play the lotto, draw GS tags, play the points game, and yearly talk about how we "need drastic action".





From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[Finn]

3 things happen when you start getting old. The first thing is that you lose your memory. I don't remember what the other 2 things were.

But I do remember enough to know that "14 days and you were done hunting." ain't right. Neither is "no bowhunt".

I clearly recall the archery deer season that preceded the rifle season, and you could hunt and punch a tag on both seasons. Both seasons were either sex. There were no draws for deer tags - you just went down to the hardware store and bought a tag. Few hunted with compound bows.

Rifle season was 3 weeks long. Most of us didn't hunt deer on the 3rd weekend because it was the opening weekend of pheasant hunt. Pheasant hunt was a big deal back in the day. Most of us had already punched our deer tag by then, anyway.

Tradition. Most who read this will scratch their heads. But I clearly remember the Friday nights before opening morning with the World Series echoing across the mountain. I could point at every light and tell you which family was camped there. They always camped there. Now days, I rarely meet anybody I know. Few hunters have an idea of place.

Back then, hunting elk was hard work and involved days of searching on horseback until we were so saddle sore we couldn't hardly walk. Killing a mature bull was a big deal. And yup, we party hunted because it wasn't easy getting a tag.

I've seen the changes and I don't like where the changes are going with regard to hunting...I mean hunting as a lifestyle, not as recreational amusement. But the only constant in this life is change. Can't stop it.

There were many more deer. I think that's because there was a lot more winter range = irrigated farmlands. And Utah's population was 1/3 of what it is today = less development. All indications are that Utah's population is going to keep growing.

We also had much less access. Winter closed many areas. No ATVs, few 4X4s. Even the general rifle season was shut down every few years by bad weather in many places because nobody could get up the dirt roads.

The biggest change I've seen in my lifetime is affluence. Back in the day, none of us were wealthy enough to "camp" in $100,000 5th wheels with ATVs for everybody, $1,000 bows, trail cams, custom camo, laser range finders, $2,000 optics, computer enabled targeting systems. And back then, nobody talked about any "hunting industry". The only hunting celebrity I ever knew was Curt Gowdy. Although, to be fair, we also had films from time to time at the local ward house. And taxidermy? A good friend of mine recently told me that he has more than $30,000 invested in the mounts he has in his home. I have a small collection of antlers.

There was no SFW...in my way of thinking, the worst thing that ever happened to big game hunting in Utah, for a bunch of reasons.

There were no RACs, where closet biologists can present half-baked wishcraft notions to complicate hunting to a point where it damn near takes a lawyer to figure things out. The proclamation was 2 pages long. Now we have an application guidebook in addition to a field regulations book with so many complications that most deer hunters don't know whether to wind their butts or scratch their clocks. The warden where I hunt told me this year that he wrote out 2 ticket books on the opening day of rifle hunt this year, most for hunting outside of legal unit. Back in the day, there were no units.

What's the point of this boomer's rant? Simple. Big game hunting is about tradition, the animals we hunt and our connection to the lands where we live. It ain't about your ego. It ain't about big antlers. It sure as hell ain't about money. Continue down this path, as I know y'all will, and you'll do exactly what anti-hunters have been trying to do. Don't worry about PETA or HSUS. The most powerful anti-hunters in Utah wear camo.

 

[notdonhunting]

Amen Fin

As a kid in the late 1970 and early 1980 going on the deer hunt and then the pheasant hunt was like having Christmas twice. My older brothers would come in and wake me up tell me it was time to go hunting I would jump out of bed put all my clothes on and then they would laugh and tell me it was only midnight go back to bed.
The one thing that stands out the most in my memory was the constant sounds of gun fire sometimes I imagined it sounded like a war.
The pheasant hunt was the lines of hunters on the side roads by farms and then the local church ward putting on a pheasant lunching the young women (all the young men was out hunting pheasants) programs did very well they would not need another fund raiser the rest of the year.
Makes you miss the old days.
If only we could make America great again.

 

[hossblur]

Agree 99%. We had willys that we chained all 4 with deuce and a half chains. No atv could hang with that.



From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[notdonhunting]

We had an old Willy's that my older brother drove hunting one day we are coming down Beaver creek road up 12 mile canyon and we lost the brakes, what a ride no brakes and no power steering. My brother did pretty good but down towards the bottom there is a sharp turn if you over shoot that your going down around 200 feet rocky 45% hillside into 12 mile creek so he put the Willy's jeep into a Juniper tree. That Wiley's jeep never did run again.

Wish we could make America great again

 

[hossblur]

The brakes on those things were just a suggestion I think.

But. I burned the clutch in mine and the old man syncromeshed that puppy from by Ferron res to Manti. So you didn't need the clutch either



From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[Vanilla]

I like Finn.

That was a great post.

 

[cannonball]

Finn,

You better check your records or see your doctor. You may have been able to hunt with a bow in northern Utah, but there was not a special archery hunt here in southern Utah in the 50's. Two elk permits issued on all of the Fishlake unit. Maybe you're just to young to remember these things. One hunt and you were done until they started hunting does. Party hunting was the norm and hunters even made drives without vehicles

 

[cannonball]

By the way the first deer was either sex, then they started a special doe hunt in the late 50's

 

[cannonball]

Fin, You are right about the 14 days, yes it was a few more days than 14. My whole point being, you can't chase deer(and elk) from the middle of August to the middle of November and not expect the whole herd to be in the smaller towns and fields.

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-19 AT 02:29PM (MST)[p]>Finn,
>
>You better check your records or
>see your doctor. You
>may have been able to
>hunt with a bow in
>northern Utah, but there was
>not a special archery hunt
>here in southern Utah in
>the 50's. Two elk permits
>issued on all of the
>Fishlake unit. Maybe you're
>just to young to remember
>these things. One hunt
>and you were done until
>they started hunting does.
>Party hunting was the norm
>and hunters even made drives
>without vehicles

Actually, there was a statewide "special" bow hunt in the 50's and it included Southern Utah.
Per the 1955 Utah Deer Hunting Proclamation:
"D - ARCHERY SEASON.
The entire State with the exception of the areas described in Section E (Closed areas) will be open for the taking of one deer of either sex by bow and arrow from September 3 through September 25, 1955, by special archery permit only. ......... Archery permits are considered "special" and restrict the possessor from applying for or possessing and other type (of) special deer permit."

AND, it wasn't one hunt and you're done! Per the 1955 above proclamation:
"B - SPECIAL PERMITS.
The following areas are declared open for the taking of additional deer under special permit privileges. The hunting area, number of permits allotted, and the deer permit sales-office addresses are listed below:
1. ANTLERLESS SPECIAL PERMITS"
(15 areas listed, 13 were in Southern Utah)
"2. EITHER SEX, SPECIAL PERMITS"
(7 areas listed, 4 in Uintah Basin, 3 in Southeastern Utah)
(And, of course, the Archery Permit was a "special" permit.)

AND, note the antlerless hunts had already started.

I'm not sure about the elk tags because the other big game species had a different proclamation and I don't have that one but Finn was right about the deer.

It seems like more of you folks on this forum should to do some homework before spouting off!

 

[elkassassin]

Hey EFA!

Just Cuzz they were Shootin Does in 55 Doesn't make it Right!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[yoteduster]

And the hunters were using either recurve or long bows with wood or fiberglass arrows that makes a big difference in harvest compared to the equipment they are using today

 

[Vanilla]

Are we saying we should end all archery hunts?

I'm listening...

 

[elkfromabove]

>And the hunters were using either
>recurve or long bows with
>wood or fiberglass arrows that
>makes a big difference in
>harvest compared to the equipment
>they are using today

And you know this because?

 

[elkfromabove]

> Hey EFA!
>
>Just Cuzz they were Shootin Does
>in 55 Doesn't make it
>Right!
>
>
>
Why?

 

[elkassassin]

>Are we saying we should end
>all archery hunts?
>
>I'm listening...


Pay Attention Niller!

You're still gonna be able to FLIP STICKS!

Carved Cedar Shafts with a F'N Knapped Obsidian Broad-head!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[DeerHunter53]

Let's not forget about the special hunt for deer in the Manti's that went until Thanksgiving and that hunt was still going on when I was in High School 1972 and after that.

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-19 AT 11:20AM (MST)[p]>Let's not forget about the special
>hunt for deer in the
>Manti's that went until Thanksgiving.......

Or the 3 Special two deer hunts.
Or the 4 six day hunts.
Or the other 24 extended season hunts that went into November.
Or the 3 buck only hunts. (The General hunt allowed either sex.)
Or the 10 General two deer hunts.
Or the 3 closed areas.
Or the 21 conditional hunts when deer move into areas with range or agricultural damage.
These hunts were in addition to the ones I listed in post #56 and had permit quotas, dates listed and boundary descriptions which were often vague (drainages?).

Whoa! Weren't we told that Option #2 with unit hunter management was something new? And aren't we now being told that we shouldn't go back to past management methods?

 

[cannonball]

>Are we saying we should end
>all archery hunts?
>
>I'm listening...

The doe hunts were very localized and happened right after the regular deer hunt. We hunt deer, in that time period, with the ML now which went state wide around 1971 and yes there were some small units earlier than that. I am not saying do away with the archery hunt, but regardless of what some people say, deer do think. If predators(man included) are up high wouldn't you think the deer would migrate down until they got away from those predators? The only thing I am saying is you cannot chase the deer continuously until they are in the small towns and fields then have a late doe hunt because landowners complain, to exterminate what is left. Simple as that and the sooner we figure out some solutions the longer our deer herd will last.

Here is what a California Fish and Wildlife biologist related to me when I was at Lake Tahoe some years back. Seems they couldn't figure out why all of their sheep were dying off at the highest level of the mountain. With more research, they concluded the mountain lions were driving them higher and they could not withstand the winter weather at the top of the mountain. The only reason I added this is because deer think and pressure pushes them.

 

[elkassassin]

>>Are we saying we should end
>>all archery hunts?
>>
>>I'm listening...
>
>The doe hunts were very localized
>and happened right after the
>regular deer hunt. We
>hunt deer, in that time
>period, with the ML now
>which went state wide around
>1971 and yes there were
>some small units earlier than
>that. I am not
>saying do away with the
>archery hunt, but regardless of
>what some people say, deer
>do think. If predators(man
>included) are up high wouldn't
>you think the deer would
>migrate down until they got
>away from those predators?
>The only thing I am
>saying is you cannot chase
>the deer continuously until they
>are in the small towns
>and fields then have a
>late doe hunt because landowners
>complain, to exterminate what is
>left. Simple as that
>and the sooner we figure
>out some solutions the longer
>our deer herd will last.

Yup!

Amazing the Average Hunters can see what's going on but the Pro's Runnin the Show Can Not!





>
>Here is what a California Fish
>and Wildlife biologist related to
>me when I was at
>Lake Tahoe some years back.
> Seems they couldn't figure
>out why all of their
>sheep were dying off at
>the highest level of the
>mountain. With more research,
>they concluded the mountain lions
>were driving them higher and
>they could not withstand the
>winter weather at the top
>of the mountain. The
>only reason I added this
>is because deer think and
>pressure pushes them.











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[cannonball]

YA ALL should have known when the primary drive was buck to doe ratio that our brilliant game managers realize that if you kill more doe, the buck to doe ratio goes up, thus they can put more hunters in the field.

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-19 AT 04:57PM (MST)[p]>YA ALL should have known when
>the primary drive was buck
>to doe ratio that our
>brilliant game managers realize that
>if you kill more doe,
>the buck to doe ratio
>goes up, thus they can
>put more hunters in the
>field.

So, should we dump the buck to doe ratios and manage hunters only by our brilliant game managers' population numbers (which you don't believe)? Or did you have something else in mind?

 

[cannonball]

I guess the question is do you think we hare losing our deer herd? The second question is what are you going to do about it?

I am at the end of my hunting career so it's up to you buddy and do nothing, but don't complain to me in 10 years or so.