7 inch group @ 200yds ethical for muzzy

C

cabinfever

Very Active Member
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2,382
I am about a 7 inch group at 200 yds with my 50 cal knight disc rifle. I use 2 pyrodex pellets with a 300gr barnes bullet. Is it ethical to shoot at an animal with this kind of group?

cabinfever
 
Go for it. A seven inch circle is pretty small. Plenty of room to hit the vitals. Just take other factors into consideration. for example if the deer is moving fast rather than standing still you should probably think twice.
 
With a scope, probably ethical. Where I hunt, you can't use a scope, so unless you were Wild Bill, you probably wouldn't shoot that far (without a scope). With an open sight, my max is 80-100 yards.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
First answer these questions.

#1-If your rifle is sighted-in to be dead-on at 125 yards, where will your bullet strike at 200 yards?

#2-If you sight-in dead-on at 200 yards, where will your bullet strike if you are presented with a 100 yard shot?

#3-Will you know that the animal is exactly 200 yards?

#4-If not, do you know how much adding or subtracting 25 yards of range will effect the impact point of your bullet?

#5-Do you know what the shooting angle and wind speed will do to the bullet?

#6-Is your 7" group shot off a bench, or after you've got your blood pumping by climbing hills, and taking into consideration that you may be a little excited because you are now considering shooting at game instead of a target?

How you answered those questions, should give you the answer to your question.


You see, there are many variables. Lets assume we are talking about deer.
With your stated load:
If you sight your gun in to be dead-on at 125 yards, you are very close to being sighted-in at maximum point blank range. That is to say; muzzle to 150 yards, the bullet will not be above or below line of sight by more than 3". I know, the vitals are 8"+ on a big buck, but I'm being conservative here, using 6" as an example to take-up some of the slack in all the variables. Adding 50 more yards, extending your range to 200 yards, your bullet will hit nearly 14" low! Can anybody be sure of the exact range, the exact bullet drop, the exact wind speed, range, etc. etc. etc.? Can we estimate all of these variables in a matter of seconds and consistantly place the bullet in the vital zone, or just occasionally get lucky and pull off a "Hail Mary"? We can go on forever with this debate, and I see I'm going against the flow here, but in my opinion, if we are talking about deer, 200 yard shots at game with your load is NOT ethical.
 
Thought I'd add this. If your group is 7" and the vitals are 8", that leaves 1" margin of error. Your bullet drops nearly 11" between 150 yards and 200 yards. It doesn't take much to over or under estimate 1" holdover at any range. Even if you use a laser rangefinder, they measure in yards and we are talking inches here.
 
I shoot my muzzy a lot and when and if a shot ever presents it self @ 200 yds and i'm calm and collective I will make the shot, otherwise I will get closer. I do appreciate the info though. Many of you guys have valid points. If their is one thing I've learned about hunting with a muzzy their are a lot of variables. However, you put a 7 inch target at 200 yards and i'll hit it every time. And no I wouldn't take an off hand shot at 200 yds. When at that distance a rest "for me" is essential. I use a rangefinder.

Thanks for your thoughts

cabinfever
 
But cabin, you really didn't answer his questions as written. In the field you are going to have to make split second decisions on elevation and a blackpowder bullet is going in a pretty good arc. So you KNOW that if you are presented with a 200 yard shot you can make it. However, I would bet you will go 10 years and only get one 200 yard shot. Do you know on the spur of the moment where to aim for a 93 yard shot, 137 yard shot, 158 yard shot? Remember, your bullet is arcing pretty good and if you don't hold just right, you may be a couple of inches off.

For me and my open site blackpowder, I sight it in so that I don't have to even think about trajectory. I sight dead on and he is going down. I think that limits the effective range of a blackpowder bullet, at least for most of us.

In reality, 200 yard shots with a blackpowder should be left to the gun range for 99% of shooters out there. If you have a gift and shoot weekly, then maybe you are in the 1%. But remember what you shooting: a primative weapon. Why not just pick up a rifle if you want to shoot that far.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Weasel, Excellent posts, real factors that a hunter should ponder.
Cabinfever, IMO you need to anwser this for yourself.
Really who cares what anybody else would do.
Greg
 
I use a T/C Encore 209 mag and I am able to consistently hit a hub cap at 300 yrds also every deer I have taken with the muzz have been in the 250 to 350 yard range I think if you know your limits and practice a bunch then a 300 yrd shot is not out of the question
 
Peta, you really crack me up. I'm not in the habit of negative replies but you've crossed the "stupid" line and I just can't resist this time.

You may not even know because I've heard your not much on regulations and such, but Utah has a law that prohibits the use of anything more than a 1x scope.

So if your shooting "all" your deer with open sights or a 1x scope at 250-350 yards, I'm guessing your the best shot in the whole world.

How many feet would you have to hold over a deer at 350 yards? Even with NO wind and a dead rest. Hell, I'd let you shoot at me at 350, no problem.

You know, Cass is a bullshitter extraordinaire but he's just a kid. I think you take the cake buddy. So congratulations, one month on the site and your the TOP BULLSHITTER hands down.
 
Peta

What kind of bullet, powder & powder charge are you using to achieve those hubcap hits at roughly 275 yards?
 
CB-
You dumb jack ass, I will bet you my muzzleloader that I can hit a hub consistently at 300 yards, 4 out of 5 times. Are you man enough to put you pride where your big mouth is? If I loose you get my muzz, if I win, I get to punch you right in your uglyass face. So I'm calling you on, in front of everyone here at Monster Muleys. Call me at
435-640-5162 and I will prove you wrong. This will be great!!
 
Peta

You answered CB's post, but you ignored mine... just below his! Please share with us your:
1)powder
2)powder charge
3)sabot or conical
4)rifle model that acheived such long, accurate shots
 
DamusFucious,

You are wasting your time trying to get answers from this lad.

How many of these guys have we seen come on this site and immediately start talking about how great they are, what they can do, etc...

Some come just to chat and hang out, some come to learn, some come to teach... and others just come to brag, boast and try to talk a hole through someone.

Well hell, I can play that game. That's all the better you boys can do. I can walk over to my neighbors, borrow his muzzleloader, wipe the dust off it and hit a sparrow 4 out of 5 times at 500+ yards. Occasionally, those sparrows will hop to another branch while the bullet is in flight.

So imagine how I can shoot with my own muzzleloader!!!

I'm reminded of an old saying that applies here. "The bigger the hat, the smaller the herd."

Or as my daddy would say if he read this thread, "I've heard ducks fart underwater before." ;-)

And anyone that wants to take me up on that offer, I'll post my phone number as soon as we get a phone in this double wide!!!

-Dawg
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-27-03 AT 02:06PM (MST)[p]
Peta posted.
Quote:
>I use a T/C Encore 209
>mag and I am able
>to consistently hit a hub
>cap at 300 yrds also
>every deer I have taken
>with the muzz have been
>in the 250 to 350
>yard range I think if
>you know your limits and
>practice a bunch then
>a 300 yrd shot is
>not out of the question
>
End of quote.

Questions:
#1- What powder charge are you using?
#2- What bullet & weight are you using?
#3- How big is the hubcap?

You say that you hit the hubcap 4 out of 5 times at 300 yards, yet you shoot at deer out to 350 yards. If this is true, I hope the hubcap is one of those 3" models off of a tricycle. If it isn't, you are not an ethical shooter. Also, if this is the case, please don't go around telling people you are a hunter because you are not. On the other hand, if you are hitting that 3" hubcap 4 out of 5 times at 300 yards, I'm pleased to make your acquaintance. You are indeed a charitable individual to bless the rest of us nimrods with your presence and I wish to take this opportunity to express my highest reverence of you. You are indeed an individual capable of achieving feats only dreamt of by the rest of us.




4 out of 5 hits, equals 20 MISSES out of 100 shots!!! Can that be called "consistant"?
 
PETA I have not been on this site very long, I have talked with you and others in the live chat room, you seem to be a good ole boy at heart, But your kinda full a #####. I do not doubt for one minute that you are very proficent with a long gun of any cal, But lets weed through the bullshit 99% of us are adults and know how too shoot, and the balistics of muzzleloaders. I am not saying that you can't hit a hubcap at 1,000,000 yards, And I really don't care. But lets try to be adults and try not to spread it too thick. This is the most opininated fourm I have ever been on, So lets think before we go to putting things down to make ourselves look better or smarter than we are. Because all it does is start a big snowball of insults. Look at it from our point of view, If I told you that my new 300 RUM was a 1500yd gun and I was shooting deer at 900yds, What would your first responce be???? Think about it, I am not saying you can't spread it a little if not it would be no fun, But 350yds with a smoke poll DUDE give me a brake. THINK ABOUT IT!!! I don't even know who CASS is but you seem to get thrown in with him all the time. There might be a reason for that! Keep it real or at least close. See ya in the chat, ELK
 
DamusFucious
I use knight bullets 300 grain, 3- 50 grain pyrodex pellets cci 209 primers and an T/C encore 209 mag and to all of those that think that I am full of ##### I will challenge anyone to a 300 yrd shoot with my muzz and no im not the best shot in the world but I am a very avid shooter with anything but pistols I chrony every load so I know what for sure is the most consistent load and it seems funny to me that you all claim to be avid muzzleloaders then you tell me that 300 yrds shots are bullshit know I no that you are among the many average Joes when it comes to shooting sports
 
Come on now Peta. Don't get all excited and beat me up because I'm calling bullshit on ya. I guess we could all meet at WallMart next Saturday, pace off 300 yards and watch you ding some hubcabs in the parking lot. Nah.

Hell, I dont need you slugging me in my uglyass face and I really don't need your muzzleloader either. I have a couple already. I've killed a few respectable deer with em, but only out to about 150 yards. They'll do me fine though because I'm really not all that great of a shot.

I did see my brother kill one at 227 yards once. He's a better shot than me but I'd bet he'd tell ya he would'nt want to have to make that same shot again. Not in 5 tries. Or maybe 10???

Oh, and I have no pride. I hang out with the Hounddoggers.
 
Hey Cb glased a prity nice buck on your side of the fence in pine canyon last week it was on the east face justs east of what we call glens pasture han a broken off G2 on its right side and no G-1s but it was 33 wide and real heavy on i got some pictures
 
This thread has made me so happy. :) Since becoming an exceptional shot through my years of roadhunting, my Encore will allow me to cut a half mile wide swath through the woods. Life is good.:);-)
 
Peta posted-Quote:

>CB-
> You dumb jack ass, I
>will bet you my muzzleloader
>that I can hit a
>hub consistently at 300 yards,
>4 out of 5 times.
> Are you man enough
>to put you pride where
>your big mouth is?
>If I loose you get
>my muzz, if I win,
>I get to punch you
>right in your uglyass face.
> So I'm calling you
>on, in front of everyone
>here at Monster Muleys.
>Call me at
>435-640-5162 and I will prove you
>wrong. This will be
>great!!

What is the diameter of the hub cap?

Are you willing to do this with a Utah, big-game legal set-up, ie: no scope over 1x or open sights?

Will you do this under field/hunting conditions?
 
PETA,

I am formerly DamusFucious who woke up this morning thinking I had to have a new "muzzleloading" screen name instead of "1/2 prophet/1/2 philosopher". I hope the moderator doesn't mind!

Your chrono is showing higher numbers at 150 gr. than at 120? That's incredible that you are burning so much powder. Do you by chance know what those numbers are at 120 & 150? I'm sure that if you chrono everything, you must of written it down somewhere. I would love to see those figures because an Encore is (1) of (4) BP rifles on my list for this year.



Honey!.. I swear I got that rifle in our cabinet free from an elderly widow at work who recently lost her husband.. I would never lie to you babycakes!
 
To all posts

First of all I didn't mean for this post to get ugly, and second I didn't pose my original question intending to base my decsion to shoot @ an animal @ 200 yds based on the posts I received. I already feel comfortable @ that range providing the conditions are right. Those conditions being many of the ones weasel posted when I first posed this question. I frequent this site because I enjoy the fellowship of people who love the same sport as I do. I'm just tired of people slaming others that feel comfortable at ranges others feel is to long. Many of the posts were contrary to what I believe, however, they were tactful, respectful, and straight forward. I simply posted to get an idea of what others thought.
Having said that, I harvested my buck at just over a 100 yds. I would have taken a 200 hundred yd shot but the wind was blowing a little harder than I felt comfortable at that distance. The bottom line is before you pull the trigger on any weapon, you better be confident of your shot taking into consideration all the variables. I'm not the best shot in the world, but i'd argue that I shoot a better group at 200 yds with my muzzy than the average hunter shoots at 100 yds with a rifle.

Lets keep it clean guys and straight forward and thanks for all the posts.

cabinfever
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-27-03 AT 08:39PM (MST)[p]Personally, I would be prouder of knowing a muzzleloading hunter who can, stalk with in a 100 yards or less of any big game species he wants to take, while hunting in an open enviroment like the North West Desert. A hunter who kills cleanly, needs only one shot, and has never missed any big game animal.
Do I know a guy like that? I do, that guy is me, :)
While I would love to pretend that I am some great hunter who has taken some huge trophies, I won't and I haven't. I can however tell you this, all a hunter needs to have a record like mine is patience, and respect for the animal. Oh, and a little luck dosen't hurt either.
Just having some fun.
fairchase
 
If you want to take 200 yard shoots dont hunt with a muzzleloader you jackass. Buy a regular Rifle.
If you cant get closer than that in an early Muzzleloader hunt stay home.
 
The late, great archer, Fred Bear had a quote that fits for all us hunters. No matter their choice of weapon....
"Target practice is seeing how far away you can hit something,
Hunting is seeing how close you can get and make a one shot kill."
Peta, I really have to wonder about a persons ethics when they have so little respect for an animal that they are willing to take a 350 yard shot at a deer with a smoker.There is sooo much room for error at that range, even under the most perfect "in the field" shooting conditions. I think I could probably "dong" a hubcap or two off the bench, but its not worth it to me to risk a shot like that and blowing a leg out from under a deer, or pooching one through the guts. Peta, GET CLOSER! Show a litte savy and some stealth!
Fairchase, I gotta respect an acomplishment like that.
 
Peta: I hope targets are the only thing you're trying to hit at 300 yards with your smokepole. According to the Barnes manual, the 300 grain sabot with 150 grain charge (3 pellets) has a starting velocity at 1848fps. Giving your gun the benefit of the doubt, say 1900 fps. Even with a 200 yard zero, that bullet drops forty inches at three hundred yards. At three hundred yards the sabot is only traveling at 1074 fps with only 640 ft-lbs energy. Hardly enough for consistent kills. You didn't mention if you were shooting offhand or from a bench.

Elmer Keith had confirmed kills on mule deer at 700 yards with a .44 revolver, it can be done but that doesn't mean it should.
 
Disregard those numbers above. I was looking at the wrong chart. 822 ft-lbs energy, 38" drop at 300 yards with a 200 yd. zero and impact velocity of 1111fps. A little better but not much.
 
Ezra, Great quote from Fred Bear! Do you know of any sites, books, etc. that has it? It should be something we all strive for.
 
smokingjoe

Last time I checked name calling was for 5 year olds. If you want to state your opinion, do so. This site was designed to bring people together that love to hunt and swap stories and information, and not for people who get so much energy on a topic that they can't control there emotions enough to make a respectful post.

cabinfever
 
Sorry Weasel, I dont know where you can find the quote. I heard it a long time ago. I cant even remember who told be but it sure made an impression on my young hunting mind.

Another one Ive always liked...."The virtue of hunting is not in posssessing game, but in the persuit of it," (Pascal)

later, ezra
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-03 AT 08:36AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-03 AT 08:29?AM (MST)

Thanks for posting your load PETA. Only you truely know your own shooting skills.

What I do know is based on the load you posted. The basic rule of thumb for ethically taking a deer is using a bullet that retains at least 1,000 foot pounds of energy at the distance you're shooting it. Most authorities say 2,000 ft lbs. of energy is required for elk.

The amount of energy of the load you posted goes below 1,000 food pounds of energy somewhere very close to 250 yds and that's only if you're using the polymer tips bullets for long distances--the hollow points won't hold that type of energy at those long distances.

If you wound an animal and watch it suffer somewhere past 250 yds, maybe you'll learn to stalk and enjoy working in on your quary to where your bullet energy is at least 1,000 ft lbs. A lot of folks won't take something unless the energy will be at least 2,000 ft. lbs.

That's a big part of the challange/rush for a lot of us and a true test of our hunting skills.

There's a difference between hunting skills and killing abilities.

If you nail something 4 out of 5 times at 350 yds, why not take up the challenge of shooting something 99% of the time @ 150 yds or closer?

That's the spirit of what primitive weapons hunts are all about.

Would it feel better if you could post this: "yeah, I crawled up within 90 yds of that 190 buck from 500 yds and whacked it!....spent 2 hrs working up on it...the suspense was killing me"

Or would it feel better to say this: "well I took a 400 yd shot at that boomer, I got lucky and found it hobbling 2 ridges over and was able to finish it off." Sure is a nice buck.
 
Ok then smarty here is a pic of my 2002 archery buck and it was taken much closer then 90 yrds and you gave a big speech about 1000 foot pounds of energy well how many people do you know that Have shoot a deer with a 270 25-05 at 450 yrds or more I know a bunch 270 130 grain only has 956 foot pounds at that range what do you have to say about that bullet placement is more important then Foot pounds and according to my buddy in the army it only takes 23 foot pounds to pierce the human skull so I think that 1000 or less is plenty
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID6/4905.html
 
Hey man, if you can do it go for it.

All I'm saying is that even Carlos Hathcock missed on extreme shots...it's impossible to dope the wind or other elements perfectly which could affect your shots under a lot of hunting conditions.

And a pencil shoved thru an eardrum and into the brain at about 10 lbs of pressure will kill many an animal too. Maybe 5 lbs thru an eyeball and on into the brain would do the same.

You're free to believe in what you want and do what you've got to do.

My own take on this subject is that I'd like to have as quick & clean of a kill as possible out of respect of the animal I'm after. The more extreme the shot, the less likely that is to occur.

Good luck to you and that's a decent buck you shot there in the photo.
 

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