9mm Question?
- Thread starter ELKOHOLIC
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Bambistew
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The glock is deffinitely a better weapon... But in my opionion 9mm's are worthless, good for shooting gophers at 25 yards thats about it. If you want it for defence get a 44 or 357 and have something, or step up and go with the 40 S&W or 10mm so you can reach out and smack a gopher at 35 LOL. 9mm's just don't have the umph... fun and cheap to shoot though. I traded off a 357 for a P89 9mm worst trade I have ever made, isn't a day goes by that I wish I still had the 357
B
bldgr10
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Go with the Glock 22 in .40 caliber. Same frame and holster size as the Glock 17. There is no comparison between the Glock and the Ruger. .40 cal rounds don't cost a whole lot more than 9mm but pack a heck of a lot more punch. The overwhelming majority Police Officers across the country have used the Glock .40 with tremendous success. Nothing against Ruger, I own several.
Mark
Mark
RELH
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Elkoholic;
The glock is a far better gun then the Ruger. It will shoot rings around the Ruger when it come to accuracy. As for the the 9mm, you can expect one shot stops about 85 % of the time if you use a high velocity 115 gr. hollowpoint. The 40 S.W. is better then the 9mm. Now for the big surprise to alot of you guys, the 357 mag. is the number one stopper in most police shootings. It outdid the 9mm and even the the good old 45 ACP. It stopped the bad guy 94% of the time with one shot in the upper torso area. This was with the 125 gr. hollow point. These figures were compiled from hundreds of police involved shootings. The 45 was second with about 92 %.
RELH
The glock is a far better gun then the Ruger. It will shoot rings around the Ruger when it come to accuracy. As for the the 9mm, you can expect one shot stops about 85 % of the time if you use a high velocity 115 gr. hollowpoint. The 40 S.W. is better then the 9mm. Now for the big surprise to alot of you guys, the 357 mag. is the number one stopper in most police shootings. It outdid the 9mm and even the the good old 45 ACP. It stopped the bad guy 94% of the time with one shot in the upper torso area. This was with the 125 gr. hollow point. These figures were compiled from hundreds of police involved shootings. The 45 was second with about 92 %.
RELH
H
Hoosierbuck
Guest
Glock-period. Awful lot of variables are being ignored when compiling statistics, however. PROS:A 9mm is easier to shoot, and easier to get a follow up shot off with. Practice ammo is a lot cheaper. CON:9mm bullets are smaller, weigh less, have less energy.
Here's a thought: Just like with hunting rifles, a bullet in the kill zone is a bullet in the kill zone. Generally speaking, a 9mm in center mass means a done deal. I'v seen a couple autopsys on one shot 9mm kills-very impressive. Then you have your meth or PCP freaks who can take a lot to bring down...
Just a couple things to ponder, in addition to the other opinions rendered.
HB
Here's a thought: Just like with hunting rifles, a bullet in the kill zone is a bullet in the kill zone. Generally speaking, a 9mm in center mass means a done deal. I'v seen a couple autopsys on one shot 9mm kills-very impressive. Then you have your meth or PCP freaks who can take a lot to bring down...
Just a couple things to ponder, in addition to the other opinions rendered.
HB
RELH
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HB;
That's the reason why most law enforcement agencies are pushing the triple tap over the older double tap. To many speed freaks out there that are proving to be very hard to put down and out of action. even the 12 gauge and 30-06 can not be depended on to stop 100 % of the time. The triple tap calls for the first two shots in the larger torso area, and the third goes to the head. If this fails, you better get your butt behind some good cover. As for the stats I mentioned, there were two seperate surveys done by different persons with law enforcement connections. They only looked at one shot stops to the upper torso area and some of the more popular calibers were involved in several hundred shootings. It was considered a one shot stop if the first bullet drop the suspect, or stopped his aggressive actions where he was no longer a danger to the officer or citizen. With certain type of bullets, including several hollowpoints, the 9mm had numerous failures on one shot stops. In fact 45 acp hardball was a better stopper then some 9mm hollowpoints. This was due to alot of hollowpoints failing to expand for one reason or another. The bottom line, bullet placement is the best key to stops. Pratice, pratice, and pratice some more. It is the same for animals or humans. The person who is the better shot will normally win.
RELH
That's the reason why most law enforcement agencies are pushing the triple tap over the older double tap. To many speed freaks out there that are proving to be very hard to put down and out of action. even the 12 gauge and 30-06 can not be depended on to stop 100 % of the time. The triple tap calls for the first two shots in the larger torso area, and the third goes to the head. If this fails, you better get your butt behind some good cover. As for the stats I mentioned, there were two seperate surveys done by different persons with law enforcement connections. They only looked at one shot stops to the upper torso area and some of the more popular calibers were involved in several hundred shootings. It was considered a one shot stop if the first bullet drop the suspect, or stopped his aggressive actions where he was no longer a danger to the officer or citizen. With certain type of bullets, including several hollowpoints, the 9mm had numerous failures on one shot stops. In fact 45 acp hardball was a better stopper then some 9mm hollowpoints. This was due to alot of hollowpoints failing to expand for one reason or another. The bottom line, bullet placement is the best key to stops. Pratice, pratice, and pratice some more. It is the same for animals or humans. The person who is the better shot will normally win.
RELH
I
IdahoCowboy
Guest
The 357 sig, not the 357 mag is the #1 police caliber for one shot stops. Don't mess around with the 9mm or the ruger. The 40,10mm, or my personal fav the 45 acp. There has to be a reason it has been around for so long?
RELH
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Idahocowboy;
I have to disagree with you, when Marshall and Ayoob compiled their shootings, the 357 sig. was almost unheard of. It is a late comer and one of the reasons it came out was due to the above mention stats showing that the 357 mag. with a 125 gr. hollowpoint at 1350 FPS was the number one stopper in police shootings. Sig bought out the 357 sig. in order to have the revolver round available in semi-autos based on the performance of the revolver 357 round.
RELH
I have to disagree with you, when Marshall and Ayoob compiled their shootings, the 357 sig. was almost unheard of. It is a late comer and one of the reasons it came out was due to the above mention stats showing that the 357 mag. with a 125 gr. hollowpoint at 1350 FPS was the number one stopper in police shootings. Sig bought out the 357 sig. in order to have the revolver round available in semi-autos based on the performance of the revolver 357 round.
RELH
N
neo2507
Guest
RELH,
The study to which you refer was conducted by Marshall and Sanow. You are obviously a .45 lover considering it scored a dismal 63% (equal to the .32acp hp)...Best "tested" .45 94%...Best 9mm 91%...
Bottom line. Shoot the most powerful gun you can shoot accurately. Ignore people who bend studies to their favorite calibers.
...and remember "I would rather by missed by a .44 than hit by a .22"
Here is a link for those that would like to see a summary of the study. Even this study has its critics. Do a google search if you are interested in the "flaws" of even this often quoted (ans mis-quoted)source.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
The study to which you refer was conducted by Marshall and Sanow. You are obviously a .45 lover considering it scored a dismal 63% (equal to the .32acp hp)...Best "tested" .45 94%...Best 9mm 91%...
Bottom line. Shoot the most powerful gun you can shoot accurately. Ignore people who bend studies to their favorite calibers.
...and remember "I would rather by missed by a .44 than hit by a .22"
Here is a link for those that would like to see a summary of the study. Even this study has its critics. Do a google search if you are interested in the "flaws" of even this often quoted (ans mis-quoted)source.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
RELH
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NEO-2507
There was two seperate surveys, Marshall was involved in the first one, and Ayoob was involved in a later survey. The best tested 45 acp at 94 % you mentioned was the hollow point with the post in the center. As for comparing fmj bullets, the 45 shows better results then the 9mm fmj bullets, and some results did show 45 hardball being more effective then some 9mm hp. As for being a 45 lover, yes I am to some extent, but as I mentioned in my first post, no caliber is 100 % effective, not even 12 gauge buckshot at close range. For the past 6 years of my career, I chose to carry a Browning HP in 40 S&W caliber loaded with hot Cor-Bon ammo. I could have continued to carry my Colt 45 acp National Match, but chose to carry the Browning instead. So there goes your assumption that I am a 45 lover only. I choose to carry the handgun that I feel is best suited to get the job done. If I need to shoot though a car, I will be packing my 41 or 44 mag. due to it's superior penatration.
As for your statement about shooting the most powerful gun you can with accuracy, I fully agree with that statement. the last criminal I shot with my 45 NM was hit one inch below the left nipple at a measured distance of 97 YARDS and it did the job. He turned a complete flip and did not point that rifle at me anymore. I am damn glad I was using my 45 instead of a 9mm that may have not dropped him. If you are interested, the load was a 185 gr. hollow point clocking almost 1100 fps out of the barrel. If you have any more comments, send them on, I have got 30 years of experience with guns, firearms training, and homicides to give me a good background to draw from.
RELH
There was two seperate surveys, Marshall was involved in the first one, and Ayoob was involved in a later survey. The best tested 45 acp at 94 % you mentioned was the hollow point with the post in the center. As for comparing fmj bullets, the 45 shows better results then the 9mm fmj bullets, and some results did show 45 hardball being more effective then some 9mm hp. As for being a 45 lover, yes I am to some extent, but as I mentioned in my first post, no caliber is 100 % effective, not even 12 gauge buckshot at close range. For the past 6 years of my career, I chose to carry a Browning HP in 40 S&W caliber loaded with hot Cor-Bon ammo. I could have continued to carry my Colt 45 acp National Match, but chose to carry the Browning instead. So there goes your assumption that I am a 45 lover only. I choose to carry the handgun that I feel is best suited to get the job done. If I need to shoot though a car, I will be packing my 41 or 44 mag. due to it's superior penatration.
As for your statement about shooting the most powerful gun you can with accuracy, I fully agree with that statement. the last criminal I shot with my 45 NM was hit one inch below the left nipple at a measured distance of 97 YARDS and it did the job. He turned a complete flip and did not point that rifle at me anymore. I am damn glad I was using my 45 instead of a 9mm that may have not dropped him. If you are interested, the load was a 185 gr. hollow point clocking almost 1100 fps out of the barrel. If you have any more comments, send them on, I have got 30 years of experience with guns, firearms training, and homicides to give me a good background to draw from.
RELH
N
neo2507
Guest
97 yards? WOW, that is impressive. Please understand that I was not trying to "flame" you. Sounds like we are are pretty much on the same sheet of music. You are obviously a helluva lot better shot than I, as I would probably have a hard time with an open sighted rifle at 97 yards, in what must have been a very stressful situation. Shoot, I probably would have given the poor guy leukemia from all the lead in his vacinity, if all I had was a pistol.
The point I make is men (me included) tend to "overcaliber" to a proven "manstopper", and struggle to hit what they aim at. Fact is "most" guys can not handle the violent recoil of the "experts" 1st choice of a hot .357, and develop a helluva flinch that goes great with a shot of testosterone. Fact. Period.
Although not an expert in LE for 30 years, I have owned just about every caliber of handgun at one time or another. The right gun for me (and me only...) is a 9mm. Yeah a lotta buddies of mine give me crap, until I outshoot them every time. That usually wins the "Mines bigger" arguments...Usually. Please don't bother posting your group sizes, as I conceded you are a better shot, and you can obviously take the extra recoil...
If a hot .32, or .380 is all you can handle GREAT!! Just perfect you shooting technique/ accuracy. No, you won't be causing any flips at 97 yards, but you can consider yourself well armed.
The point I make is men (me included) tend to "overcaliber" to a proven "manstopper", and struggle to hit what they aim at. Fact is "most" guys can not handle the violent recoil of the "experts" 1st choice of a hot .357, and develop a helluva flinch that goes great with a shot of testosterone. Fact. Period.
Although not an expert in LE for 30 years, I have owned just about every caliber of handgun at one time or another. The right gun for me (and me only...) is a 9mm. Yeah a lotta buddies of mine give me crap, until I outshoot them every time. That usually wins the "Mines bigger" arguments...Usually. Please don't bother posting your group sizes, as I conceded you are a better shot, and you can obviously take the extra recoil...
If a hot .32, or .380 is all you can handle GREAT!! Just perfect you shooting technique/ accuracy. No, you won't be causing any flips at 97 yards, but you can consider yourself well armed.
RELH
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neo2507;
I fully agree with your above statement. In my second post I mentioned that bullet placement is the important key to stops and a person must practice every chance they get. as a LEO firearms instructor I expressed my opinion to my dept. concerning what firearm would be chosen for issue to the officers, men and women. Several of the more experienced officers wanted the Colt 45 ACP as a issued gun. I was against that selection for several reasons, some that you mentioned in your post. I feel that the single action 45 ACP is a gun for officers who have obtained a very high degree of firearms experience though thousands of rounds of pratice, and the average officer is not trained well enought to be proficent with that firearm. Hell alot of cops grumble when they have to go to the range for practice or qualification and will never be considered experts with their firearm.
I know of officers that have never pulled their firearm from their holster except to put it away at the end of the shift. I would prefer to not be around them if they had to pull it due to a dangeous confrontation.
Now that I am retired, concealment is my main consideration while going about my normal day. I now pack my Browning 40 cal. in the car door pocket and a 380 cal. backup in my pants pocket.
alot of times when a person asks me what handgun they should get for their first gun, I reccommend a good 22 semi-auto. I do this because the ammo is cheap and the 22 is a fun gun to shoot for most persons. This combination leads them to practice alot and become a good shooter with that small caliber auto. I tell them to load it with 22 Stingers when they use it for home defense. I enjoyed that part you mentioned about alot of guys going out and buying the biggest caliber they can and finding out they can't shoot it or end up flinching on every shot. I have purchased used, and not shot very much, 44 mags from those guys at a very cheap price when they decided to dump those guns.
The survey by Marshall that you posted the web site too, is a very much abridged portion of the total survey. I have seen it in it's intire form and have read many of the incidents that took place. It is a real eye opener and we used it to select the brand of ammo that was issued to our dept. officers.
Yes! I considered myself a damn good shot and I got there by expending thousands of rounds of ammo. While in competition, I was shooting 1500-2000 rounds a month just to stay competive. One of these days I might admit to you about the easy shots that I have blown. Boy talk about being humble after one of those.
RELH
I fully agree with your above statement. In my second post I mentioned that bullet placement is the important key to stops and a person must practice every chance they get. as a LEO firearms instructor I expressed my opinion to my dept. concerning what firearm would be chosen for issue to the officers, men and women. Several of the more experienced officers wanted the Colt 45 ACP as a issued gun. I was against that selection for several reasons, some that you mentioned in your post. I feel that the single action 45 ACP is a gun for officers who have obtained a very high degree of firearms experience though thousands of rounds of pratice, and the average officer is not trained well enought to be proficent with that firearm. Hell alot of cops grumble when they have to go to the range for practice or qualification and will never be considered experts with their firearm.
I know of officers that have never pulled their firearm from their holster except to put it away at the end of the shift. I would prefer to not be around them if they had to pull it due to a dangeous confrontation.
Now that I am retired, concealment is my main consideration while going about my normal day. I now pack my Browning 40 cal. in the car door pocket and a 380 cal. backup in my pants pocket.
alot of times when a person asks me what handgun they should get for their first gun, I reccommend a good 22 semi-auto. I do this because the ammo is cheap and the 22 is a fun gun to shoot for most persons. This combination leads them to practice alot and become a good shooter with that small caliber auto. I tell them to load it with 22 Stingers when they use it for home defense. I enjoyed that part you mentioned about alot of guys going out and buying the biggest caliber they can and finding out they can't shoot it or end up flinching on every shot. I have purchased used, and not shot very much, 44 mags from those guys at a very cheap price when they decided to dump those guns.
The survey by Marshall that you posted the web site too, is a very much abridged portion of the total survey. I have seen it in it's intire form and have read many of the incidents that took place. It is a real eye opener and we used it to select the brand of ammo that was issued to our dept. officers.
Yes! I considered myself a damn good shot and I got there by expending thousands of rounds of ammo. While in competition, I was shooting 1500-2000 rounds a month just to stay competive. One of these days I might admit to you about the easy shots that I have blown. Boy talk about being humble after one of those.
RELH
N
neo2507
Guest
Yep, we're on the same page. Nice typing to you!
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