A ton of public land you can't hunt

[hossblur]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-18 AT 06:40AM (MST)[p]New study from OnX and TRCP.
New Study Shows 9.52 Million Acres of Western Public Lands Are Landlocked

Results of the most sophisticated analysis of inaccessible public lands reveals a staggering challenge that the Land and Water Conservation Fund could help solve

BOZEMAN, Mont. ? This week, onX and the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership revealed the stunning results of a collaboration to quantify how many acres of America?s public lands are entirely surrounded by private land and, therefore, sit inaccessible to hunters, anglers, and other outdoor recreationists.

The Findings

More than 9.5 million acres across thirteen states in the American West were identified as landlocked by private lands in a study using today?s leading mapping technologies. The findings are now available in a new report, ?Off Limits, But Within Reach: Unlocking the West's Inaccessible Public Lands,? which unpacks the issue in unprecedented detail.

?At 9.52 million acres, the massive scale of the landlocked problem represents a major impediment to public access and the growth of the $887-billion outdoor recreation economy,? says Joel Webster, Western lands director with the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership. ?These are lands that all Americans own, and yet public access is not readily available or guaranteed.?

Up until now, little has been done to make a comprehensive and detailed assessment of this frequently discussed issue. This new report breaks down the 9.52 million acres landlocked across the West into totals for each of the thirteen states, highlighting the largest landlocked parcel within each state and how many landlocked acres each federal land management agency oversees.

More than 93.2 percent of landlocked public lands in the West are managed by the Bureau of Land Management. Wyoming holds the most inaccessible public lands with 3.05 million acres?or almost a third of the total landlocked acreage across the region.

?onX was founded on helping people access the outdoors and public lands, and our partnership in this project is an extension of that,? says onX founder Eric Siegfried. ?In additions to creating technology that enables people to make memories in the field or on the water, we strongly support efforts that either improve current access points or open up new opportunities for our customers. Why not start with the public lands that we rightfully own??

A Solution in Jeopardy

The report also highlights the most powerful tool for opening landlocked lands to the public?the Land and Water Conservation Fund, which, among other things, pays for voluntary easement and acquisition agreements with private landowners. This joint effort between onX and TRCP arrives at a critical time for the fund, which is set to expire on September 30, 2018, unless Congress acts to reauthorize the LWCF.

?Our report offers a clear and accurate picture of a major access obstacle facing public land users, and the Land and Water Conservation Fund is the single most important mechanism for addressing this challenge,? says TRCP?s Webster. ?Many lawmakers talk about their commitment to public access, and the clearest way for them to demonstrate their support would be to reauthorize this critical program by September 30.?

?Many public land parcels without guaranteed public access range from five to 30 square miles in size?we aren't just talking about postage stamp sections,? adds Siegfried. ?Understanding this, lawmakers have a very real opportunity to make a positive difference by expanding public access for the American people, and we hope they do.?

Landlocked Acres by State
? Arizona: 243,000 acres
? California: 492,000 acres
? Colorado: 269,000 acres
? Idaho: 208,000 acres
? Montana: 1,523,000 acres
? Nevada: 2,054,000 acres
? New Mexico: 554,000 acres
? North Dakota: 107,000 acres
? Oregon: 443,000 acres
? South Dakota: 196,000 acres
? Utah: 264,000 acres
? Washington: 121,000 acres
? Wyoming: 3,046,000 acres
Learn more and download the full report at unlockingpubliclands.org.


My thoughts:

Corner hoping should be legal. A law on how many acres you can landlocked before you have to allow access?

What you got?

From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[DW]

I'm still following Chris LeDoux, looking for that Rancher with the purty daughter!



#livelikezac

 

[YBO]

LOL

 

[Soj51hopeful]

I think corner hoping should definitely be legal. Some states it is and some it isn't. I don't know how much land it would open in The states it's not legal, but I'm sure it would help some.

 

[hossblur]

>I'm still following Chris LeDoux, looking
>for that Rancher with the
>purty daughter!
>
>
>
>#livelikezac

All this time I've been looking for an real old, real rich woman to whom I could gold dig


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[DW]

>>I'm still following Chris LeDoux, looking
>>for that Rancher with the
>>purty daughter!
>>
>>
>>
>>#livelikezac
>
>All this time I've been looking
>for an real old, real
>rich woman to whom I
>could gold dig
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.

I'm a cake and eat it too, kinda guy.


#livelikezac

 

[grizzly]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-18 AT 10:04AM (MST)[p]Wyoming is one of the worst due to their checkerboard layout. I researched it heavily in the past and know of a few people that have been charged with trespassing over corner hopping, but every charge was dropped if the defendant filed notice to fight the ticket.

It appears that no DA wants a judge to actually rule and set precedent on corner hopping. I think they'd rather the fear keep some people away than force the issue and find out it's legal.

It's a major gray area that should be fixed. Many of these ranchers keep landlocked public land as their own public/private hunting preserve on taxpayer dollars.

Plus, it's pretty hard for a landowner to prove damages caused by a person crossing the airspace above an
infinitesimally small point in space.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News

 

[Elkslayer2015]

I think if we can't access the land then the land owners should be paying taxes on that landlock land instead of us.

 

[roadrunner]

Options:

- land swaps with landowners to accomodate public access.

-crossovers installed by conservation groups. No landowner wants their fence pushed down by people climbing over.

-road built across private to access public at the full cost of conservation/outdoors enthusiasts to be closed at the discretion of the landowner when roadside litter and off-road damage occurs. No landowner wants their land torn up or have trash thrown out the window.

 

[Vanilla]

I'm not a land use expert, but it seems to me that the threat of taking land through eminent domain for the public purpose/use might be enough of an incentive to grant an easement over a small corner or a small line through property?

I do acknowledge this is a ton one, though. We all know how we feel about our desires to use public lands, I assure you the passion of people that own land privately hold those beliefs, if not even stronger, for their own land. And that includes their desire to keep others out.

I'm not sure there is one single answer that works across the board here.

 

[grizzly]

>I'm not sure there is one
>single answer that works across
>the board here.

The fairest solution I can see is a fence bridge installed by DWR or conservation groups. That way the hunter knows exactly where to cross and doesn't physically touch the land or the fence but gets access to public land on both sides. I don't see how that harms anybody but also protects the rights of the public to utilize public land.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News

 

[Bumpy]

The very least any of us can do is contact your congressman to voice your opinion and encourage them to vote for reauthorization of the LWCF.

 

[hossblur]

>I'm not a land use expert,
>but it seems to me
>that the threat of taking
>land through eminent domain for
>the public purpose/use might be
>enough of an incentive to
>grant an easement over a
>small corner or a small
>line through property?
>
>I do acknowledge this is a
>ton one, though. We all
>know how we feel about
>our desires to use public
>lands, I assure you the
>passion of people that own
>land privately hold those beliefs,
>if not even stronger, for
>their own land. And that
>includes their desire to keep
>others out.
>
>I'm not sure there is one
>single answer that works across
>the board here.

Pretty sure your speaking my thoughts. Other than I'd agree with others, if you land lock it, and use it, you should either pay a lease, or pay tax, and if its for commercial use not the discounted green belt rate.


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[Castnshoot]

Simple solution; sell the land locked land at market value.

Use those funds to buy non-landlocked land.

(of which there is plenty to be had)

Then no ones rights get trampled with forced easements.

9 million acres opened up for the public?s use.

At which point every body is happy right?

 

[roadrunner]

Essentially what a land swap is, sorta.

 

[hossblur]

Not much of an incentive for the private to sell or buy, right now they have it free of charge.

I get that the checkerboard was a railroad deal, there is a lot that was strategically bought to take advantage.

If you go to TRPC it shows the largest tracts.


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

 

[arns]

Grizzly I wish I new that about 5 years ago.My son had a deer tag south of Rawling.We were on a public road and seen a real nice buck on the sky line a long ways off.So we pulled out the GPS and noticed that he was on a section of school trust and if drove down the road a 1/2 mile to the BLM we could get to him.So drove to the BLM and started to get ready to go and a game warden pulls up and told us if corner jump to get to that buck he would give us a ticket.The bad part was it took my son 5 years to draw the tag and it was a late season tag that was suppose to start the end of October and they called him 2 months before the hunt and changed it to the first of October. And sorry you can't turn your tag back or get a refund are deer numbers are down. That's what they told him.

 

[Castnshoot]

>Essentially what a land swap is,
>sorta.

No,,a land swap is where the government (me and you) takes a slice of the privet property away from the land owner to make an easement so the public can get to the landlocked public land.

In return the private land owner gets a like amount of land from the parcel of public land.

The land owner can be forced to do this,, but the federal government has to have the local government go along with the seizure, or ?swap?.

 

[RELH]

Grizzy, I have hunted Wyoming about 5-6 times over the years for elk, deer, and antelope. The law makers in Wyoming are on the side of the outfitters and ranchers when it comes to land locked public land.
A good example is Elk Mountain not far from Saratoga, WY. It is landlocked by private ranchers and the outfitters have bought the hunting rights from those ranchers. We got free trespass from one of those ranchers at the base of elk mountain one year. The next year we could not hunt the ranch because the rancher had sold the hunting rights to the Union Pacific railroad and he could not allow anyone else hunt the ranch.

Elk Mountain itself is public land, so some smart out of state hunters hired a helicopter service to fly them in to the mountain to hunt elk. They flew right over the private land to avoid any trespass violations. Outfitters became irate over that and pitched a b!tch to their lawmakers and game service. As a result they passed a game law that if you fly into a hunting area, you can not hunt until 48 or 72 hours have gone by. I can not remember if it was 48 hours or 72 hours.

RELH

 

[Castnshoot]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-18 AT 08:30PM (MST)[p]A simple flight log, backed up with time dated gps record would show a drop off flight and not a scouting flight.

This law is in place for fair chase not to stop some clever hunter from accessing
a landlocked public parcel.

More than one state has the same type of law.

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/News/Game-and-Fish-New-rules-on-scouting-for-game-anim

?Nothing in this Section shall apply to the operation of an aircraft in a usual manner where there is no attempt or intent to locate any game animal, such as aircraft used for the sole purpose of passenger transport.?

 

[roadrunner]

>>Essentially what a land swap is,
>>sorta.
>
>No,,a land swap is where the
>government (me and you) takes
>a slice of the privet
>property away from the land
>owner to make an easement
>so the public can get
>to the landlocked public land.
>
>
>In return the private land owner
>gets a like amount of
>land from the parcel of
>public land.
>
>The land owner can be forced
>to do this,, but the
>federal government has to have
>the local government go along
>with the seizure, or ?swap?.
>

Sounds more like imminent domain, when the gov't forces it.

By "land swap, sort of" I mean Sammy Gov't trades 660 acres of land A to Johnny Rancher and in turn Johnny Rancher trades 660 acres of land B to Sammy Gov't all for the same pass through price.

Land A is smack in the middle of the northern edge of Johnny's 10,000 acres, but Land B is a weird corner that jutts out into Sammy's 1,000,000 acres. This swap squares up everything for you and I.

Way off in the weeds, I know. But, it's how a land swap recently worked in NM with the Navajo Tribe.

 

[N_Corey]

If the landlocked land is truly landlocked it's only worth something to one or a few people which are the ones who border it. Why would they buy it when they can have free run of it.

 

[RELH]

Castnshoot, they may have changed the regulations since it was enacted. There was a story in one of the local papers in Wyoming about how many hunters were irate due to the fact if they flew in they had to wait those 48-72 hours before they could hunt. This was around the late 80's.
Maybe they put enough pressure on the law makers to make them make that revision as I remember the way it was first written, no hunting until those hours passed if you fly in and it was hunters flying in to elk mountain that started the change in game laws.

RELH

 

[RELH]

Things have changed in most states concerning hunting and trespass on to private ranches.
when I hunted Wyoming during the 80's and 90's it was no problem to get the right to hunt-trespass on private property for a reasonable fee. I remember getting free trespass numerous times for antelope hunting and deer on one occasion.
Example we hunted a ranch out of Lusk Wyoming several times. The ranch owner was a 5th. generation rancher and a fair guy. He would charge us 250 bucks for the entire season and to fill all tags. With the over counter doe tags and our deer and antelope buck tags, we would take about 4-5 animals for the season. He only allowed 14 hunters on the ranch for the hunting season and as a result he had quality animals. He used the trespass fees to pay his property taxes for the year.
He finally retired and a relative took over the ranch. That person got money hungry and jacked up the hunting fees and allowed a lot more hunters on the property and the quality animals got shot out.
Hunting is big money anymore and there is more people out there today that will rip you off if given the chance.

RELH

 

[bullskin]

Castnshoot, the problem with selling public land at market value and then purchasing private lands for public access is that the public land is worth almost nothing without access. If the owner of the private refuses access to everyone else, then he is the only one who will have any interest in buying the land--and that interest will be slight if he can use it for free.

At the very least, anyone who hold a public lease (for grazing, mining, etc) should, as part of the terms of that lease, be required to allow public access to that property across his own so that the rest of us may enjoy what is ours.

 

[notdonhunting]

It sounds like other states than just Utah have a problem with there politicians catering to the rich and private land owner too.
"Who knew"

 

[MT_55]

A 1 for 1 land swap would NEVER work. I mean, why would the landowner give up the privacy of that landlocked land just to gain a 1 to 1 ratio? Think about it, he's using the free land as he chooses anyways so he gains nothing.

Go in and say look, either I take your land from you to create this easement or I give you triple of what I take for the easement. Either way this is going to happen buddy, do you want to take the easy way and gain some property or the hard way and lose property? It's your decision. Get ol' Donald Trump in charge of this program and I guaranty the freeloading landowners would be accepting his offer and giving him a homemade apple pie along with the agreement.

 

[Castnshoot]

The problem with a lot of these ideas being thrown out is you have the Tenth Amendment to deal with.

You might be surprised what would happen if some of these land locked parcels were put on the market.

That land is suddenly looked at totally different by not only the surrounding private land holders, but also in the eyes of the Real estate & civil law as well.

 

[BuzzH]

>Castnshoot, they may have changed the
>regulations since it was enacted.
>There was a story in
>one of the local papers
>in Wyoming about how many
>hunters were irate due to
>the fact if they flew
>in they had to wait
>those 48-72 hours before they
>could hunt. This was around
>the late 80's.
> Maybe they put
>enough pressure on the law
>makers to make them make
>that revision as I remember
>the way it was first
>written, no hunting until those
>hours passed if you fly
>in and it was hunters
>flying in to elk mountain
>that started the change in
>game laws.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> RELH

RELH,

Myself and another guy that posts here quite a bit, JM77, led the effort to change the aircraft/drone regulations. We put a lot of hours and thought into it, along with good support from the Wyoming Game and Fish.

One of our primary concerns was to pass regulations that specifically banned the use of drones and aircraft for scouting, but kept aircraft use available so sportsmen could use them to reach landlocked State and BLM.

Prior to our efforts it was illegal to hunt State land since there was a 24 hour rule that you had to wait before hunting if you flew. Since camping on State lands is illegal, there was no way to fly in and hunt the same day under the old regulation. Now you can.

Jeff and I spent a lot of time making sure the current regulations accomplished what we wanted.

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/wyoming_drone_ban

 

[RELH]

BuzzH, you did hunters a great service by getting the change in the regulations. The DIY hunters owe you a lot of thanks for your determination in getting that regulation changed where it is fair to all hunters.

RELH

 

[Castnshoot]

Relh, after reading Buzzh?s post about the history of the current flying law in Wyoming.

Your original post about the law makes a lot more sense to me now.

I don't discount your recollection of what happened way back then.

Sorry if my bringing the current law into the conversation might have made it look that way.

Buzzh, good work on a great logical reg.

 

[Littlebaler]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-18 AT 07:39AM (MST)[p]Just make all the inaccessible area a wildlife refuge.

 

[Joe2Kool]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-18 AT 08:24PM (MST)[p]Making sure I understand, is it currently legal to camp on state land? Meaning a hunter could fly in, camp and wait 24 hours, then legally hunt? Correct?

Public land only available to a few is really private land, at the expense of the public. Hopefully TRPW can initiate some kind of change to allow access.

 

[RELH]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-18 AT 08:35PM (MST)[p]This is from the Wyoming State land web site. The answer is NO you can not camp overnight on state lands in Wyoming.
RELH
_________________________________________________________

Public Access Rules


The rules and regulations controlling public use of state lands are simple. First, the lands must be legally accessed. Anyone crossing private land to reach state land must have the permission of the private landowner. The landowner is under no obligation to grant such permission. Second, off-road vehicle use, overnight camping, and open fires are prohibited on these state lands. All motorized vehicles must remain on established roads. New roads cannot be created, nor can established roads be extended by public users. Activities that would damage state lands, roads, improvements, or lessee property interests are also prohibited. Finally, cultivated croplands are not open to public use.

Many of Wyoming?s state land parcels are intermingled with, surrounded by, or fenced in with private land and are indistinguishable from such private land. The responsibility of knowing whether you are on private or state land is YOURS. Adhere to the rules and exercise basic common sense, courtesy, and consideration for others, and you will do your part to help protect Wyoming?s state lands and keep them open for public hunting and fishing.

 

[Joe2Kool]

>
>One of our primary concerns was
>to pass regulations that specifically
>banned the use of drones
>and aircraft for scouting, but
>kept aircraft use available so
>sportsmen could use them to
>reach landlocked State and BLM.
>
>
>Prior to our efforts it was
>illegal to hunt State land
>since there was a 24
>hour rule that you had
>to wait before hunting if
>you flew. Since camping on
>State lands is illegal, there
>was no way to fly
>in and hunt the same
>day under the old regulation.
>Now you can.
>
>Jeff and I spent a lot
>of time making sure the
>current regulations accomplished what we
>wanted.
>
>https://www.backcountryhunters.org/wyoming_drone_ban

A quote from the link above. "While existing state statute outlaws scouting wildlife from a plane and then hunting within 24 hours, the new rule change would strengthen these regulations and specifically ban the use of any drone or aircraft to hunt or scout."

So, if it is illegal to camp on state land, and it is illegal to hunt within 24 hours of flying, and it is illegal to corner cross, this leaves landowner permission as the only option to access landlocked public land. Am I missing something?

It has been a few years since I hunted WY, but I remember several public parcels that had a corner fence in the ROW.

 

[1911]

If there is any chance of change it will be finite and paced like molasses in December. The whole thing is frustrating and yet amusing as well. It is what it is and all you can do is be pissed your ancestors didn't jump on the wagon.

For all of the SJW nonsense and redistribution; us vs evil rich land baron; let's be at least intellectually honest. Nobody and I mean nobody with the fortune to have won the ovarian lottery would part with their land for a song and a dance because it feels so good.

Maybe South Africa could be a model. They just decided one day that white farm owners were selfish and are in the process of taking it back.

No matter where you sit on the social hierarchy, there are always those below you that view you as the big bad rich guy.

Nothing significant will change in our lifetime. Luckily there was enough foresight to preserve what we have in public lands because it certainly could have ended far worse than we currently have.