Air Pollution food for thought.

huntFX4

huntFX4

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Southern California is in the news today as having the worst air conditions in the country due to pollution. This is interesting due to the fact that California has been at the forefront of emissions control on vehicles for 40 years. California has some of the strictest laws on emissions that I know of.

Something I recall hearing a few years ago when I got stationed here is that California has additives in fuels to cause cleaner burning than most other states. I heard on the news at one point that some groups were trying to get rid of the additives b/c though you have fewer emissions, the additives cause lower gas burn ratings so in essence, you aren't lowering the emissions b/c it takes more gas to get anywhere.

I have to believe that b/c I drive to Montana for hunting season every other year or so. When I get out of California and have fuel burning from other states, I actually get better gas mileage.

So with California's strict controls, additives, low emission vehicle requirements, etc. why is it they still have the worst air pollution in the country?
 
Well it must be Bush's fault. He's probably secretly telling the auto makers to make the cars for cali have worse emissions and pay the emissions people to pass the cars. Its one big conspiracy that Bush concocted one night while he was drawing up other plans to screw the country.
 
Well it must be Bush's fault. He's probably secretly telling the auto makers to make the cars for cali have worse emissions and pay the emissions people to pass the cars. Its one big conspiracy that Bush concocted one night while he was drawing up other plans to screw the country.





lmao,,, i wonder what some around here are going to do when he's gone ? focus anger on the next bunch? lol somehow i kinda doubt it,
 
Tfinal?? Very little to do with emission control standards. More to do with California and New England, New York having the highest population densities and the most vehicles on the road, as far as air pollution is concerned. Another factor is climate. California's continually warm climate with low offshore flow compared to the NW causes the air pollution to condense at the surface between the central mountains and the populated coastal plain area. The two factors combined are the primary cause. The fact that the Admin has in fact rolled back portions of the Clean Air Act to ease the production of gasoline doesn't help.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-06 AT 09:39PM (MST)[p]

You've hit the nail on the head - Population. Most of the air pollution in SoCal is from vehicles. VMT - vehicle miles traveled, or, in some cases, idleling engines add most of the air polution - Also, keep in mind that with all the population brings a lot of demand for goods and services. That means lots of trucks, trains, and boats, all of which burn diesel. Trains and ships are considered non road engines and do not have the same standards as cars they, one train or ship, produces 1000s of times more pollution than a car. On idleing ship in the harbor emits as much as 10,000 cars.

Long haul rigs, busses, and semis also emit ALOT particulates. Add that to all the people who run two strokes, bbq's, and lawn mowers, and throw in re-entrained road dust, rubber tires (they wear out) and the occasional wild fire, and a bit of wood smoke and some backyard burning and you've got an air quality problem. Just be thankful you live near the ocean (western "clean" air breezes) or you have air more like Mexico City - the worst air pollution in the world. . .

It' all could be reduced even more, if we used better diesel engines. The europeans use diesels but they are 90-98% cleaner than ours! The technology is available, but getting the truck builders, and the fule makers and retail outlest all together is a HUGE chore! You can have a new clean diesel engine, but it has to have a different - less sulfer - fule. You also need a place to buy it and their has to be a lot of them. This is why most big citys are starting the ball roling by modifying their fleats as they have a central fule system. Busses and government fleats are now changed over - and the ones' that are not on soon to follow. - in california and other big cities in the USA.
 
You global warmers are fricken nuts.........



GORE: CIGARETTE SMOKING 'SIGNIFICANT' CONTRIBUTOR TO GLOBAL WARMING
Fri Sep 29 2006 09:04:05 ET

Former U.S. Vice President Al Gore warned hundreds of U.N. diplomats and staff on Thursday evening about the perils of climate change, claiming: Cigarette smoking is a "significant contributor to global warming!"

Gore, who was introduced by Secretary-General Kofi Annan, said the world faces a "full-scale climate emergency that threatens the future of civilization on earth."

Gore showed computer-generated projections of ocean water rushing in to submerge the San Francisco Bay Area, New York City, parts of China, India and other nations, should ice shelves in Antarctica or Greenland melt and slip into the sea.

"The planet itself will do nicely, thank you very much what is at risk is human civilization," Gore said. After a series of Q& A with the audience, which had little to do with global warming and more about his political future, Annan bid "adios" to Gore.

Then, Gore had his staff opened a stack of cardboard boxes to begin selling his new book, "An Inconvenient Truth, The Planetary Emergency of Global Warming and What We Can Do About It," $19.95, to the U.N. diplomats.

Developing...
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-06 AT 10:38PM (MST)[p]


You've hit the nail on the head - Population. Most of the air pollution in SoCal is from vehicles. VMT - vehicle miles traveled, or, in some cases, idleling engines add most of the air pollution - Also, keep in mind that with all the population brings a lot of demand for goods and services. That means lots of trucks, trains, and boats, all of which burn diesel. Trains and ships are considered non road engines and do not have the same standards as cars they, one train or ship, produces 1000s of times more pollution than a car. On idling ship in the harbor emits as much as 10,000 cars.

Long haul rigs, busses, and semis also emit ALOT particulates. Add that to all the people who run two strokes, bbq's, and lawn mowers, and throw in re-entrained road dust, rubber tires (they wear out) and the occasional wild fire, and a bit of wood smoke and some backyard burning and you've got an air quality problem. Just be thankful you live near the ocean (western "clean" air breezes) or you have air more like Mexico City - the worst air pollution in the world. . .

It' all could be reduced even more, if we used better diesel engines. The Europeans use diesels but they are 90-98% cleaner than ours! The technology is available, but getting the truck builders, and the fuel makers and retail outlets all together is a HUGE chore! You can have a new clean diesel engine, but it has to have a different - less sulfur - fuel. You also need a place to buy it and there has to be a lot of them. This is why most big cities are starting the ball rolling by modifying their fleets as they have a central fuel system. Busses and government fleets are now changed over - and the ones' that are not on soon to follow. - in California and other big cities in the USA.
 
Tfinal

Last time I checked, a 1 and 9 zeros is a billion. And fuel is not spelled fule.

JB
 
I'll give you all of that, my spelling and grammar leaves a lot to be desired, I did add too many zeros - thanks for the help. I should pay more attention.

There is still room too dispute global warming, but there are very few respected scientist that are willing to say that we have had NO impact on climate change.

We can and should continue to discuss global climate. I believe humans have had an impact on the warming of our earth. How much is not know, if we can change it still is not known for sure, but what is known is that the air, and most of the resources we use are finite and therefore they will run out. Now, we can just ignore the symptoms and go about our way, crossing our fingers that things will all turn out fine, or we can conserve our resources, reduce out co2 emissions. That makes sense regardless of your position on global warming.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-06 AT 10:41PM (MST)[p] I went back and spelled checked my words, and there were a lot more misspelled words than you pointed out. Thanks for the help. . .

Would anyone care to duscuss issues, or are you guys just interested in tearing people down?
 
I live near the ocean. Actually about 200' above sea level so I should be alright. I have a friend who lives on the bay. He has a house with a boat dock right on the slough which connects to the bay which connects to the ocean. I explained to him that since the ocean is going to rise at least 30 feet, he would lose his house and property. As a friend, I offered to buy him out, right now, for 2% of his assessed value of $400,000, or $8,000. It seemed reasonable to me. I don't think we are friends that much anymore.

Some people are so ungreatful!

Steve
 
T ,
I'll give you credit you don't give up easy, you're obviously more up on environmental issues than most of us myself included. but I'm afraid that your efforts are as lost as me reading the instructions on my new training collar to my German Shorthair, he just doesn't get it. it would be nice if someone would debate you instead of the old right winger discredit then ignore tactics they use on all sience issues that don't fit their agenda.

I admit my spelling sucks so save it.
 
I assumed it was taken for granted that when use the word "air" that the composition of that air was important.

Obviously I was mistaken. If the stuff you breathe in, and breathe out, can kill you, I would call that pollution and not air. I guess it still would be considered air. When I used the word air, in my comments, I was referring to healthy, non corrosive air. Sea level air is made up of: (and a few other things. . .

Nitrogen N2 78.084 %
Oxygen O2 20.9476 %
Argon Ar 0.934 %
Carbon Dioxide CO2 0.0314 %


It can and will vary slightley and dose change as you increase your elevation above sea level, but, ff you add other elements or compounds, in toxic quantities, it is unhealthy to breath. In nthe case of CO2, it causes other problmes. For example. C02 is a component of air, albeit a small one. If its concentration increases too much, it becomes "toxic." Toxic means its poison. So most things in too high of a quantity can be poison. I know this is a departure from what we hear, but I consider compounds or elements, in concentration that kill, to be toxic.

Now, therefore, air, in a form that's healthy, or at least not so toxic that we can't breathe it without killing our lungs, is FINITE. Air, if given enough time, will tend change it's chemistry. Given the added CO2 levels, mostly as a result of human contrabutaions, air will change enough that it will change the conditions under which we live our lives.

I would not like to breathe the air in our major cities - like the air in LA or SF or NY, or DC, or CH, or any place in TX, Phoenix or . . . If you breathe that air every day, expect to shorten you life by about 10 years. That's what I'm talking about.

I was under the impression that most people would understand that in order to have "air" it must be air that does not shorten you life by breathing it - Hum. . . remember, our air must be protected for the most sensitive populations - this according to the Clean Air Act. . . Obviously it's not, but that's another matter.


Would you care to tell me what you consider air? Is it a finite resource? Or is its chemistry un important to you?

Inhofe still is giving speeches on global warming - he's real qualified to talk about global warming . . . come to think of it, so is Gore - LOL, at least Gore has a brain. . . Inhofe's talking points are not even in line with the issues. He's a typical of big oil guy - remember where's he's from - no surprise is it. And, he'll be dead before a warmer climate laps up against your doorstep. . .
 
Eelgrass, Haahaaaaaa..... I will have to try that out on my Dad! He has no bank waterfront on Totten Inlet (Puget Sound). My old bedroom sits 10' above sea level at high tide. I will try that angle to convince him to trade properties with me. I doubt that it will fly. Although he does love my view of the mountains and high prairie. Hmmmmmm..........
Eric
 
Same old deal a guy like Tfinalshot who is obviously well read and has a scientific background let's attack his spelling or his grammar. Another way is let's attack him for sounding smart I see the same thing in junior high. T. I speak for only myself I enjoy reading your thoughts so it's not all wasted.
 
Why doesnt anyone debate TFinal? Oh yeah, because its like talking to my 2 year old. No matter what you say its in one ear and out the other.

To start with all 2007 production diesel engines will be 90 percent cleaner than last years model. Same emission rules apply for tractor trailers as well but by 2010. By 2007 all diesel sold will be ultra low sulfur.

How do you think all your fancy little camera parts get to your door TFinal. Built in a factory in Korea or China with no regulations on pollution or emissions. Then they are shipped across the ocean in huge ocean liners that put off 1000 times more pollution than a car. Then they pull into dock in LA where the are unloaded with heavy polluting equipment and then loaded in long haul trucks and shipped across the country.
And last but not least you buy it over the internet and it is shipped UPS to your door.

Glad your doing your part to minimize the pollution problem.

Also a large portion of CA has an inversion layer that traps the polutants in the valleys during the winter and spring months.

I know Im not quoting the EPA or some other tree hugging hippie luvin expert but there you go.
 
So far the question "why does Southern California have such a big problem with air pollution?" has not been satisfactorily answered. A key component of the answer is the prevalence of a temperature inversion that keeps air pollution from dispersing as it commonly does elsewhere. Los Angeles is located in a shallow bowl. The air pollution -- from vehicle emissions as well as other emissions (there is an oil refinery in the LA metropolitan area, near Rancho Dominguez) -- becomes trapped within this shallow bowl and becomes much more concentrated than it would be just about anywhere else.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-02-06 AT 09:17AM (MST)[p] While inversions are a factor, we cause the pollution. You can't blame the weather, or GW for this one, it's too many autos, period.

It is 100x more efficient to transport 1000 packages via I man in a UPS truck than it is to have 1000 people driving 1000 cars to the store. Lets use our melon here. So Im not sure what you point was.

I cant change the world, but if I had my way, we, in this country would be building and manufacturing our own products. The Toyota pickup I drive is also from overseas. Lets eliminate the ships and build them on are own soil. . .

Really now, lets pick on a person, lets not talk about the issues. Is it too hard to deal with the issues or is it just fun to trash talk about other people. Most of you dont have a clue about how I live my life. If I could get an American made camera, I would in a heart beat.
 
I think my point was there is a worse case of polluted air in southern California, particularly LA, than would be expected given the number of cars there. The temperature inversion accounts for the severity of the air pollution relative to the number of cars.
 
It is 100x more efficient to transport 1000 packages via I man in a UPS truck than it is to have 1000 people driving 1000 cars to the store. Lets use our melon here. So Im not sure what you point was.

what happend to your ddy?

moving items via trains, trucks and UPS is less polluting than if we all drove to get the items.

In my post I never made any qualitative statments. I'm not say it's all bad, i was pointing out where the polution comes from.

so, do you dissagree with where the pollution comes from? If so why? What information are you using?

I dont expect much of an answer, but somthing directed at the subject of the post would be nice.

Why do you and others care so much about me? Why talk about me, why not talk about issues?
 
Here's a link (it's a PDF so I cant cut and past it) to a one page, two week old report from the Inspector General regarding the non road emissions that I discussed.

Take a look for yourself and let your 2 year old read it too. . .

http://www.epa.gov/oig/reports/2006/20060927-2006-P-00039_glance.pdf


Make sure you read the entire piece - it's short, but it does support my earlier comments, and to the extent you trust your current IG and the administration that is responsible for that office (Bush), it is accurate, no matter how closely it matches what many of you think are my liberal views. . .

I am very often surprised when people want to call me a liberal but then find that the current "conservative" administrations views are consistent with a liberal. Either I'm not as liberal as you make me out to be, or the conservatives arent conservatives.

Which is it. . . .?
 
What Alsation said exactly. The Indians back in the day when the first settlers stopped in what is now L.A. had a name for that area. I do not remember the exact Indian name but it meant something like "Big Smoky Area" or something like that. Yea I know that sounds stupid but I am typing faster than I can think right now.

Another thing that bothers me about this whole global warming issue is that some how Americans can stop it. Look one valcano eruption does more damage than 75 years of Industry. So say we all agree to go green here in America. Then what. The Chinese ain't, the Iranians aint, the Euro's ain't. The Africans are going to continue with deforestization then it wont be long before they are Industrialized ect. ect.

Now I have no problem with trying to live a less polutive life. But some folks are just getting too carried away with this.

On a side note I am still hopping for a very large earth quake to send Southern Cali into the sea. Then we wont have to worry or debate their air polution.

FX, Cali air polution is kinda like Washington D.C. gun control. They got the strictest regs but...............
 

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