ChubbyTuna
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Dad and I have a hunt in unit 61 (elk) from October 6th-13th. Does it look like this wolf thing will be decided in time for me ti get a tag?
Am I hunting wolves this year?
- Thread starter ChubbyTuna
- Start date
Califelkslayer
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I hope so.
mightyhunter
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I imagine it will all depend on how quickly the delisting takes place. Wyoming is ready to go with it's plans, but if the Feds delay the delisting right up to the September deadline it could slow things down. Let's hope they delist in the next couple months so there is plenty of tim to prepare for a full Fall season while all the other big game seasons are ongoing.
SMOKESTICK
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ChubbyTuna,
I believe there will be a hunting season this fall and that there is a specific reason for not delisting sooner than September first.
After seeing the 9th Circuit Court up hold Judge Molloy's ruling, I wonder if these extreme environmentalist groups will continue to litigate? Now that they are paying their own legal fees it might not be their preferred option.
We will soon learn how the Wyoming G&F Department will allocate wolf licenses, etc. I definitely would plan on having some extra money on hand so that you can obtain the wolf license once they become available. We all know that the first couple of years will be your best opportunity of killing a wolf, then they will become much more difficult to kill.
I believe there will be a hunting season this fall and that there is a specific reason for not delisting sooner than September first.
After seeing the 9th Circuit Court up hold Judge Molloy's ruling, I wonder if these extreme environmentalist groups will continue to litigate? Now that they are paying their own legal fees it might not be their preferred option.
We will soon learn how the Wyoming G&F Department will allocate wolf licenses, etc. I definitely would plan on having some extra money on hand so that you can obtain the wolf license once they become available. We all know that the first couple of years will be your best opportunity of killing a wolf, then they will become much more difficult to kill.
Seeings how the anti's are well funded and seem to have an endless supply of cash, I'd expect additional litigation shortly after the Feds approve Wyoming's plan. Although you might be able to call SFW. They're not shy about trying to take as much credit as possible for us getting to this point even though the State had been waging this battle for at least a decade before these clowns arrived on the scene...
SMOKESTICK
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Triple_BB,
Since I started up WY SFW I can tell you that you have me on that one! We started in 2003, when the wolf introduction began in 1994-1995. However, I can tell you that since SFW started up, I have attended almost every wolf meeting in the state. WY SFW played a significant role in forming the Wyoming Wolf Coalition. The only other sportsmen group which weighed in during our presence has been the Wyoming Wildlife Federation. Initially, they did not support the dual status plan. The RMEF did not get involved until most of the debate was already over in Wyoming. While the state has been involved since this began, it wasn't until Wyoming had a Coalition that things started to gain traction. WY SFW broke rank with the Wolf Coalition during the 2007 legislative session and pushed to change Wyoming's plan. It was our effort alone that lead to the changes which allowed the service to delist wolves in Wyoming. It was that effort which allowed Judge Johnson to issue the ruling which told the service they had rejected our plan without any legal standing. It was that ruling which prompted Governor Mead & Secretary Salazar to formulate a plan whereby Wyoming will see wolves delisted and remanded to their control. You may call SFW (as well as me) a clown, but you cannot refute to truth. Say what you want but SFW (and I) have been heavily involved, at least since we started in 2003. Hopefully, with this behind us, WY SFW can now begin to focus our attention towards mule deer recovery efforts. I am equally certain that extreme environmentalist will continue to litigate. I am equally certain that Wyoming has done its homework and we will prevail any legal challenges as the ESA cannot dictate how a recovered species is managed, it can only set that standards be which such recovery can be measured. Wyoming will not fall below the minimum numbers of 100 wolves and at least 10 breeding pairs but we have protected our ability to classify wolves as predators in the majority of our state.
Since I started up WY SFW I can tell you that you have me on that one! We started in 2003, when the wolf introduction began in 1994-1995. However, I can tell you that since SFW started up, I have attended almost every wolf meeting in the state. WY SFW played a significant role in forming the Wyoming Wolf Coalition. The only other sportsmen group which weighed in during our presence has been the Wyoming Wildlife Federation. Initially, they did not support the dual status plan. The RMEF did not get involved until most of the debate was already over in Wyoming. While the state has been involved since this began, it wasn't until Wyoming had a Coalition that things started to gain traction. WY SFW broke rank with the Wolf Coalition during the 2007 legislative session and pushed to change Wyoming's plan. It was our effort alone that lead to the changes which allowed the service to delist wolves in Wyoming. It was that effort which allowed Judge Johnson to issue the ruling which told the service they had rejected our plan without any legal standing. It was that ruling which prompted Governor Mead & Secretary Salazar to formulate a plan whereby Wyoming will see wolves delisted and remanded to their control. You may call SFW (as well as me) a clown, but you cannot refute to truth. Say what you want but SFW (and I) have been heavily involved, at least since we started in 2003. Hopefully, with this behind us, WY SFW can now begin to focus our attention towards mule deer recovery efforts. I am equally certain that extreme environmentalist will continue to litigate. I am equally certain that Wyoming has done its homework and we will prevail any legal challenges as the ESA cannot dictate how a recovered species is managed, it can only set that standards be which such recovery can be measured. Wyoming will not fall below the minimum numbers of 100 wolves and at least 10 breeding pairs but we have protected our ability to classify wolves as predators in the majority of our state.
B
bucklover
Guest
I know we all have our own buttons that get pushed once in a while,and our own way of thinking things through. I can tell you this. Of all the people I've known over the years, (and I'm 60) Smokestick is as dedicated to the cause that benefits everyone that hunts, as any person I've ever dealt with. Anytime I have ever run into him, he is either going to, or coming back from meetings about wolves or legislative sessions concerning hunting. You might have your differences with him, but overall this is one man I am very thankful for. He is always fighting the fight that the rest of us just sit back and talk BIG about. We all go about our "normal" jobs and lives, and attend a meeting or two throughout the year, but very few of us dedicate our lives, almost 24/7. Some of us wish we could, but few actually do it. Smokestick has done just that. He has sacrificed a great deal, being away from family and other responsibilities. I appreciate what he does. If you can do a better job, step up and do it. I'm sure Smokestick will appreciate all the help he can get towards support for hunting.
Thanks Smokestik for you help in this matter. Wyoming's SFW is probably a good thing. In Utah I think it started out to be a good thing, but to me SFW organization in Utah, is out of control, it's not audit by anyone. So Don Peay can hire as many of his friends that he wants to, who's to say, Mr. Peay we don't need to hire someone else for $60,000 a year. It's a uncontrolled organization that makes up the rules as he goes. They need to vote new SFW officer's in every 4 years. That includes Mr. Peay's position, then I'll rejoin.
wolfhunter
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Smokestick,
I thank you and SFW for being in the trenches. Let the haters rant, lot's of us see though it.
RMEF made a good decision to get in gauged... I remember when they were on the fence because the wolf fight was not popular or good politics. They made a GOOD decision to start fighting....
We all need to get in this fight,,,TOGETHER!
I would even kill a pack of wolves with BuzzH and his little lap doggy!!
I thank you and SFW for being in the trenches. Let the haters rant, lot's of us see though it.
RMEF made a good decision to get in gauged... I remember when they were on the fence because the wolf fight was not popular or good politics. They made a GOOD decision to start fighting....
We all need to get in this fight,,,TOGETHER!
I would even kill a pack of wolves with BuzzH and his little lap doggy!!
SMOKESTICK
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I am proud of what we have been able to accomplish in Wyoming and it does require 24/7 attention to our issues. Personally, I believe the strength of SFW is also our weakness; our members. If the organization is not doing what you want I would urge you not to abandon the organization but to get more involved. I am certain there is a reason behind every decision that each independent SFW state takes. Sometimes, I believe we, as sportsmen, are too quick to assume the intent and/or direction we are attempting to go. As a body and in general, sportsmen are not very well versed in our political process, nor do we understand just how political things are. Don & I use to argue over the role politics played in wildlife management. He eventually convinced me that everything is political. Sportsmen need to recognize that others will attempt to manipulate and misinform us; almost always with the intent to divide us. While none of us will always agree on how to get from point A to point B, we must try none-the-less to understand each others different perspectives and strive for common ground. Ultimately, though decisions need to be made and sometimes, we are only as good as our membership allows us to be. Get to know your SFW leadership and how the process works. If you can be patient, the SFW model does in fact work but only if we focus on the big picture issues, have good informed debate, and rally behind the decisions we make. If the decision doesn't go your way, you either need to work harder at explaining your position to others to garner increased support for your position, realize that you were unable to persuade the majority to your position but support the decision made by the organization, seek another alternative to the one being put forward, etc. This is a process and will continue to evolve over time; however, walking away from it will not make the organization any better. The model does really work but it requires more than simply paying your membership. Obviously, those which put the most into the organization will reap the most out of it.
Having said all of this, I am sure their will be attacks, both personal and in general about SFW. All I can ask is that you will try what I said and get more involved not abandon our cause. I believe we all share a common desire to see that our hunting heritage is protected and passed on to future generations. I know what I am now doing will have little if any direct benefit for my son &/or my daughter; however, I hope that some day there will be some else to step up and replace my generation as this battle is sure to continue until one generation fails to protect it. I do not want it to be my generation to be the last to know what it means to hunt.
Having said all of this, I am sure their will be attacks, both personal and in general about SFW. All I can ask is that you will try what I said and get more involved not abandon our cause. I believe we all share a common desire to see that our hunting heritage is protected and passed on to future generations. I know what I am now doing will have little if any direct benefit for my son &/or my daughter; however, I hope that some day there will be some else to step up and replace my generation as this battle is sure to continue until one generation fails to protect it. I do not want it to be my generation to be the last to know what it means to hunt.
mightyhunter
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There are some people posting on MM and other forums that think they can predict the ultimate outcome of the Wyoming wolf plan. Much has taken place in the last year and progress has been made. There is still the matter of the final delisting which is expected to take place in September 2012. If you read the Powell Tribune article that I linked, the state has proposed a total wolf quota in the trophy zone. They have also set quotas in specific areas. They have set a fee for resident and non-resident tags in the trophy zone. It would appear that the Wyoming Game & Fish will be taking a conservative approach (high price non-resident tags and small quotas)to the situation if wolf hunting takes place in the trophy zone in 2012.
Most of the remaining questions will revolve around any legal challenges after the delisting. I am sure that there are people predicting a legal challenge that will be successful with a preliminary injunction stopping the hunts before they start in the trophy and predator zones.
If a legal challenge is brought to the wolf plan, who will be bringing it? Will it be the "A" team of the eco-elites(DOW,GYC, etc.)with their high priced legal talent and funding, or will it be the "B" or "C" team with less financing and less legal talent? The "A" teams may be dedicating their efforts to other battles and may choose to sit this one out. These groups do not all think or act alike. The other question will be who will hear the case, if one is filed? Will it be Johnson or someone else? I believe that one sitting Federal District Judge in Wyoming may have a conflict. Is it possible to bring another judge in from outside the Wyoming District to hear the case?
Only time will tell if I will be purchasing a wolf tag for 2012. If so, I know right where to go to find my wolf.
Most of the remaining questions will revolve around any legal challenges after the delisting. I am sure that there are people predicting a legal challenge that will be successful with a preliminary injunction stopping the hunts before they start in the trophy and predator zones.
If a legal challenge is brought to the wolf plan, who will be bringing it? Will it be the "A" team of the eco-elites(DOW,GYC, etc.)with their high priced legal talent and funding, or will it be the "B" or "C" team with less financing and less legal talent? The "A" teams may be dedicating their efforts to other battles and may choose to sit this one out. These groups do not all think or act alike. The other question will be who will hear the case, if one is filed? Will it be Johnson or someone else? I believe that one sitting Federal District Judge in Wyoming may have a conflict. Is it possible to bring another judge in from outside the Wyoming District to hear the case?
Only time will tell if I will be purchasing a wolf tag for 2012. If so, I know right where to go to find my wolf.
SMOKESTICK
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I can tell you that I enjoyed meeting BuzzH at the EXPO this year. Even though we do not agree on everything, I actually liked meeting him and think it would be fun to go hunting with him. Our differences can become our strengths if we only allow it to occur. The World would be extremely boring if we were all a like and never disagreed; however, we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable.
To me, what is important is that it is a team effort. Nothing accomplished in Wyoming was solely my own doing. Everything has happened because of a team effort. Sometimes, though tough decisions need to be made and no one leaves those battles unscathed.
To me, what is important is that it is a team effort. Nothing accomplished in Wyoming was solely my own doing. Everything has happened because of a team effort. Sometimes, though tough decisions need to be made and no one leaves those battles unscathed.
wolfhunter
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No question Buzz is smart...wish he would direct that intelligence into helping sportsman!!!!
SMOKESTICK
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Zeke,
I met BuzzH at the Western Hunting & Conservation Expo held in Salt Lake City, UT. WY SFW had a booth and he came by and introduced himself to me. Like wolfhunter said, BuzzH is smart & believe it or not he is trying to help sportsmen. We just see things from different perspectives from time to time. No doubt, he is a true & passionate sportsman. Like I said earlier, our differences can become our strengths. It doesn't have to be my way or the high way. Wildlife management is not an exact science and there are plenty of ways to skin a cat.
I met BuzzH at the Western Hunting & Conservation Expo held in Salt Lake City, UT. WY SFW had a booth and he came by and introduced himself to me. Like wolfhunter said, BuzzH is smart & believe it or not he is trying to help sportsmen. We just see things from different perspectives from time to time. No doubt, he is a true & passionate sportsman. Like I said earlier, our differences can become our strengths. It doesn't have to be my way or the high way. Wildlife management is not an exact science and there are plenty of ways to skin a cat.
This is straight from the lapdog's mouth, LOL! From what I see, BuzzH probably knows more about what is going on out west and is doing more than any 100 sportsmen you could probably name in the interest of conservation! It takes more than shooting your mouth off and telling everyone that all wolves should be shot on sight like one member here has posted more than once on these Forums. It seems quite evident that most hunters do not want tags sold in the numbers that are happening in Utah at the hands of SFW. Now another SFW, whether it's directly affiliated with Don Peay and the main SFW in Utah or not, is trying a back door tag grab in AZ against the wishes of most hunters. If Bob (Smokestick) would come on this thread and tell me and all the other SFW naysayers that the Wyoming SFW will never resort to the debacle that Utah has become with that Expo and tag sales, I will send him my personal check and join the bunch tomorrow just like my best buddy in Sheridan has asked me to do! The ball is in his court. This one was for you Zeke and I keep my word!!!
No problem here being a hater. When you see how they've destroyed hunting opportunities in Utah with their tag grabs you know the turd ain't dropping far from the chute. The first thing these clowns did when they snaked their way into WY was cozy up with the WGOA and then attempt to get license set asides for the outfitters at the expense of yer average Joe non resident hunter. Next thing you know the president of the WGOA goes on the record saying what a great organization SFW is. Trust me folks, if these clowns could pull a Utard, they'd be snagging up big game tags out of WY and every other western state. The SFW claims to have some political clout in these parts. Why don't you ask yer SFW rep to push the WY legislature to change the law requiring non rezi's to hire a guide in the wilderness; won't happen. And why yer at it, ask him why they didn't support the WY Range Legacy Act like every other sportsman group out there. Simple, they're bought and paid for by the highest bidders and that ain't yer average Joe hunter. Am I missing anything...
Zeke
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Wow TG! That whole post "is for me"? Then I'll take exception with you my friend. (oh Gawd, I had a 2 page letter typed but I thought better of it. I just hit reset)
Sufficient to say;
Buzz is damn sure a "sharp tool in the shed" but he pokes too many people for no good reason.
Zeke
I still can't believe he went to the Expo!
Sufficient to say;
Buzz is damn sure a "sharp tool in the shed" but he pokes too many people for no good reason.
Zeke
I still can't believe he went to the Expo!
Zeke--You guys out there have convinced me that the average members are doing what they believe best and are doing a lot with what they have to work with. If only they could get more money on the ground without doing the tag grabs, I really think the group could probably do a lot more without certain people feeding out of the trough.
PleaseDear
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I gained more respect and knowledge about Buzz from him openly answering the big assault by the very few 'Aganda Guys' thru-out all the posts and threads.
The guy got squat in Charity Paychecks and is truely a Volunteer for wildlife......in more than One state.
He is black and white and I strongly feel that with all the Con Org'$ just wanting our $$$ for 'into the future protection'---and then going into the Blame Game when chit falls apart or even worse the Piggy Back for credit game...how stupid do they think todays well educated hunter is?
We all need a straight shooter for the future of hunting in the Rocky Mountain region.
We are way out numbered by the anti's and way out financed....to many of our so called Con Org'$ are all about self serving Charity Paycheck incomes and playing high roller with someone else donated money.
Between 'mightyhunter' and 'Buzz H', (toss in some traditional paterns from Triple b) I have gained a great improvement of my knowledge towards the wolf issue in Wyo and a historical value of those actually getting their sleeves rolled up for not one penny of re-imbusement nor because it is their Charity Paycheck--Paid Job to be involed.
TG--all these 'SFW franchises' answer to the same Wildlife Ghandi....period.
Robb
The guy got squat in Charity Paychecks and is truely a Volunteer for wildlife......in more than One state.
He is black and white and I strongly feel that with all the Con Org'$ just wanting our $$$ for 'into the future protection'---and then going into the Blame Game when chit falls apart or even worse the Piggy Back for credit game...how stupid do they think todays well educated hunter is?
We all need a straight shooter for the future of hunting in the Rocky Mountain region.
We are way out numbered by the anti's and way out financed....to many of our so called Con Org'$ are all about self serving Charity Paycheck incomes and playing high roller with someone else donated money.
Between 'mightyhunter' and 'Buzz H', (toss in some traditional paterns from Triple b) I have gained a great improvement of my knowledge towards the wolf issue in Wyo and a historical value of those actually getting their sleeves rolled up for not one penny of re-imbusement nor because it is their Charity Paycheck--Paid Job to be involed.
TG--all these 'SFW franchises' answer to the same Wildlife Ghandi....period.
Robb
TG--all these 'SFW franchises' answer to the same Wildlife Ghandi....period.
Robb
That's exactly what I'm afraid of Robb! No matter how much good the average guys are doing as members of those state groups, just think how much more they could do if all that excess money wasn't going for salaries, consultant fees, lobbyist fees, etc. That's the way DP set Utah up and it goes against the NAM the way they make the money, which just isn't right! Now we have to insure that it doesn't go any further than Utah and the fight is on right now in AZ!
Robb
That's exactly what I'm afraid of Robb! No matter how much good the average guys are doing as members of those state groups, just think how much more they could do if all that excess money wasn't going for salaries, consultant fees, lobbyist fees, etc. That's the way DP set Utah up and it goes against the NAM the way they make the money, which just isn't right! Now we have to insure that it doesn't go any further than Utah and the fight is on right now in AZ!
eelgrass
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I can understand being all butt hurt about SWF and the tag grab. That has merit. But to turn around and lick Buzz's boots, who is in favor of seeing wolves spread all across the western US puzzles me. Wolves kill more big game in a week than SFW tag grab will in 10 years. Just wait until wolves really get going.
I admit I'm too old to change. I'll never see wolves as anything but but a blight on the big game that we have struggled so hard to bring back from the brink.
Eel
I admit I'm too old to change. I'll never see wolves as anything but but a blight on the big game that we have struggled so hard to bring back from the brink.
Eel
PleaseDear
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'morning eel...,
No boot licking----I believe I typed--
Between 'mightyhunter' and 'Buzz H', (toss in some traditional paterns from Triple b) I have gained a great improvement of my knowledge towards the wolf issue in Wyo and a historical value of those actually getting their sleeves rolled up for not one penny of re-imbusement"......
I truely believe hunting seasons in Id/Mont/Wyo for wolves will be wonderful and certainly a compromise to never hunting them and having our wildlife wiped out by the wolf.
I draw my Sheep tag in Wyo this year and I am going to be one of those 'unlimited tags' type guy @ $180.00 as my sheep unit is with in the Trophy Zone......so would my 3rd choice Region F deer--- I want to hunt a Wyo-Wolf this fall.
+1 TG.
Robb
No boot licking----I believe I typed--
Between 'mightyhunter' and 'Buzz H', (toss in some traditional paterns from Triple b) I have gained a great improvement of my knowledge towards the wolf issue in Wyo and a historical value of those actually getting their sleeves rolled up for not one penny of re-imbusement"......
I truely believe hunting seasons in Id/Mont/Wyo for wolves will be wonderful and certainly a compromise to never hunting them and having our wildlife wiped out by the wolf.
I draw my Sheep tag in Wyo this year and I am going to be one of those 'unlimited tags' type guy @ $180.00 as my sheep unit is with in the Trophy Zone......so would my 3rd choice Region F deer--- I want to hunt a Wyo-Wolf this fall.
+1 TG.
Robb
LAST EDITED ON Mar-21-12 AT 06:23AM (MST)[p]eelgrass---Could you please show me where BuzzH ever said anything on wolves like you stated in your last post? I can't remember him saying anything other than that we are going to have to live with minimum numbers of them because of the Feds forcing them on the states under the flawed ESA. It will be up to the individual states to do that under the delisting and he's been very upset because Wyoming delayed Idaho and Montana from the delisting because they were lumped together. The only debate I've had with him on wolves is that he feels Wyoming should have changed their plan and made delisting possible in all three states a number of years ago, rather than drag things out until finally getting the plan certain factions wanted. I really couldn't debate the latter part of who the major players were that delayed things because he lives there and should be more up on the nitty gritty of what is happening than I am here in MI. I imagine if we all had a vote of whether we should have introduced them in the first place the vast majority would have said no. Now we need to get to work and knock the s**t out of them to get them down to levels where ungulates can increase their numbers where they have been decimated.
BUZZ IS SPOT ON WITH A LOT OF THE POLITICS THAT ENCOMPASS HUNTING, SFW, LAND USE, GOV. AGENCIES AND SUCH. THE SAME CANNOT BE SAID FOR HIS GAME MANAGEMENT VIEWS & THEORIES .......THEY LACK.
;AND KNOW I WONT GO BACK & DIG IT ALL UP ......DONT HAVE THAT KINDA OF TIME !!!!!........................YD.
;AND KNOW I WONT GO BACK & DIG IT ALL UP ......DONT HAVE THAT KINDA OF TIME !!!!!........................YD.
nontypical
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TG-Pretty sure what YD is referring to is the fact that BUZZ likes to kill as much game as he legally can(or is "entitled" to?).He also seems to favor the "status quo" as far as LQ tags vs general tags,regardless of what shape the herds seem to be in.And you're right-that's his opinion,and this is mine.We all know how BUZZ feels about these issues-he's made that abundantly clear.I just wonder if he's getting tired of having your nose up there yet.
Funny, but you seem to be one that always has your nose up my business! What's the difference? So Buzz kills a few animals every year, and last year in particular in a number of different states when he happened to get lucky and draw some hard to get tags. All the animals were used by friends or himself according to his posts after MH got to squawking about it. So what's the big deal? A lot of people don't kill anything when they go out and a few kill a number of animals. If it didn't equal out, the G&F in the different states would probably change the limits, don't you think? He has openly stated that he favors general tags over LE ones, but I doubt it's so he can go in and decimate the game populations of the area! If we had a lot more like him that are as concerned about the environment and helping better things for our future generations, we would all be a lot better off IMHO.
ChubbyTuna
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Jeez, I just wanted a heads up on if I might hunt wolves this year. Does everything have to turn into an SFW debate.
Looks good that it might happen for my Oct 6th hunt. Just hope the tag is reasonable.
Looks good that it might happen for my Oct 6th hunt. Just hope the tag is reasonable.
mightyhunter
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Chubby Tuna,
The link I posted earlier says the NR wolf tag will be $ 180. A quota has been set of 52 wolves in the trophy zone which is broken down into various smaller quotas depending on the area you wish to hunt. You might want to call the Game and Fish Office in Cody to find out what the sub-quota is going to be for the area you will be hunting.
I agree that the anti-SFW drum has been beat to death. By now, most of us are aware of that problem. I will stop my squawking now.
The link I posted earlier says the NR wolf tag will be $ 180. A quota has been set of 52 wolves in the trophy zone which is broken down into various smaller quotas depending on the area you wish to hunt. You might want to call the Game and Fish Office in Cody to find out what the sub-quota is going to be for the area you will be hunting.
I agree that the anti-SFW drum has been beat to death. By now, most of us are aware of that problem. I will stop my squawking now.
ICMDEER
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I was at the G&F season setting meeting last night and they said they hope to hunt the wolves this fall. But as always, it will depend upon the litigation and the courts. G&F expects a lawsuit or lawsuits the moment USFWS delists the wolves. At that point, we could have a 60 day hunting period unless the judge/court through which the lawsuit is filed grants a temporary injunction staying the hunting season until the lawsuit/litigation is settled.
Not sure we have a stright answer or know exactly how it will all unfold. Also, there are some wolves outside the trophy area and those will be treated as predators in our Wyoming plan and they can be shot on sight.
Good hunting this fall.
Not sure we have a stright answer or know exactly how it will all unfold. Also, there are some wolves outside the trophy area and those will be treated as predators in our Wyoming plan and they can be shot on sight.
Good hunting this fall.
W
wyowill
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Want to start a controversy on this website?
Post an opinion.........
Wait
Post an opinion.........
Wait
B
bucklover
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And that's what keeps us all coming back for more.
PleaseDear
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Thanks Jim-----
You are always on top of your game.
I hope I do not dump $180.00 and then loose it in the lawsuit stopping my/our short wolf season at best.
If I draw my Sheep tag----screw it....I am buying one of the Unlimited Tags and will play the 'harvest quota' or dance with the lawsuit (s).
Have a good wknd All.
Robb
You are always on top of your game.
I hope I do not dump $180.00 and then loose it in the lawsuit stopping my/our short wolf season at best.
If I draw my Sheep tag----screw it....I am buying one of the Unlimited Tags and will play the 'harvest quota' or dance with the lawsuit (s).
Have a good wknd All.
Robb
Califelkslayer
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Opinons???? I have one. The RMEF gets donated tags from numerous states, and in totality, they have a lot less tags to sell than SFW gets from Utah alone.
I'm not as educated on this issue as some on here but is seems that when it takes 15 years to draw a tag you could draw in 5 years if SFW didn't get those tags, their "habitat Improvements" would have to triple the big game population to break even. Don't think that is happening.
And an audit would be nice.
I'm not as educated on this issue as some on here but is seems that when it takes 15 years to draw a tag you could draw in 5 years if SFW didn't get those tags, their "habitat Improvements" would have to triple the big game population to break even. Don't think that is happening.
And an audit would be nice.
Well it's been three full days since my post #18 asked Smokestick to answer my question and depending on what it was I'd send him my personal check for membership in the WYSFW. The silence is deafening and it's always that way when any question of substance is posed! Talk about a lack of transparency and they wonder why most are so negative towards the group!!!
wolfhunter
Active Member
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-12 AT 01:52PM (MST)[p]Topgun,
I don't think Buzz gave you permission to speak about something that you know nothing about. I read your posts and all you do is copy and paste/post someone else's writings or opinions. Just because you live on your computer all day every day, don't (do not) consider yourself anything other than a sheep or lap dog being led around...
I will take, and appreciate, smoksticks efforts all day. I am sure his hind sight tells him a few things could have been done different. At least he and SFW are in gauged trying to make a positive difference...
I don't think Buzz gave you permission to speak about something that you know nothing about. I read your posts and all you do is copy and paste/post someone else's writings or opinions. Just because you live on your computer all day every day, don't (do not) consider yourself anything other than a sheep or lap dog being led around...
I will take, and appreciate, smoksticks efforts all day. I am sure his hind sight tells him a few things could have been done different. At least he and SFW are in gauged trying to make a positive difference...
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-12 AT 03:10PM (MST)[p]
Who the FLOCK asked you to chime in? You and your Buzz BS is getting old real fast, so take it somewhere else! I've stayed away from you, so how about doing likewise so threads can run smoothly! Incidentally, you wouldn't know a C/P if it bit you in the Azz and I do very little of that unless another member that doesn't know how sends me a PM and asks for help Now if you're so smart, why don't you tell us the real reason why Mr. Smokestick hasn't responded? I''ll save you the time because he never responds to any question of substance put to him. He's a good politician and probably wants good things to happen, but the way he goes about things is similar to the parent organization and it sucks big time! I just told him I'd send him my check to join his group if I got one honest answer. In this case, silence isn't golden Bro!
"At least he and SFW are in gauged trying to make a positive difference..."
Yea, like trying to rape the AZ hunters of 350 big game tags and it will probably be hitting WY next, LOL! Incidentally, the word is "engaged" oh wise one!
Who the FLOCK asked you to chime in? You and your Buzz BS is getting old real fast, so take it somewhere else! I've stayed away from you, so how about doing likewise so threads can run smoothly! Incidentally, you wouldn't know a C/P if it bit you in the Azz and I do very little of that unless another member that doesn't know how sends me a PM and asks for help Now if you're so smart, why don't you tell us the real reason why Mr. Smokestick hasn't responded? I''ll save you the time because he never responds to any question of substance put to him. He's a good politician and probably wants good things to happen, but the way he goes about things is similar to the parent organization and it sucks big time! I just told him I'd send him my check to join his group if I got one honest answer. In this case, silence isn't golden Bro!
"At least he and SFW are in gauged trying to make a positive difference..."
Yea, like trying to rape the AZ hunters of 350 big game tags and it will probably be hitting WY next, LOL! Incidentally, the word is "engaged" oh wise one!
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-12 AT 04:28PM (MST)[p]"At least he and SFW are in gauged trying to make a positive difference..."
For who?
He worries about his kids getting to hunt and his parent group is pulling HUNDREDS of tags out of the draw and auctioning them off to pay themselves and their buddies.
jeezus h, it doesn't take a genius to see the folly in that. If they actually put 90+% back on the ground there wouldn't be the uproar.
How well has that expo/tag plan worked in Utah? Are the odds going up? More Elk in the hills? More hunters applying? More access? Better Deer herds?
Don Peay is making 150K/year off you guys and laughing all the way to the bank.
For who?
He worries about his kids getting to hunt and his parent group is pulling HUNDREDS of tags out of the draw and auctioning them off to pay themselves and their buddies.
jeezus h, it doesn't take a genius to see the folly in that. If they actually put 90+% back on the ground there wouldn't be the uproar.
How well has that expo/tag plan worked in Utah? Are the odds going up? More Elk in the hills? More hunters applying? More access? Better Deer herds?
Don Peay is making 150K/year off you guys and laughing all the way to the bank.
wolfhunter
Active Member
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- 434
Topgun,
I respect smokstick for having the balls to come on here to help sportsman stay informed and show that he cares. I have never supported WY SFW but I think I might start, I will put in an extra $180 in your name. You attempt to draw him into an fight with your "write a check" statement, when you had no intent to join, Buzz would spank your little lap dog azz!
I respect smokestick more for blowing you off...
Most everything you say about SFW Topgun it's Baahaa! Baahaa! or Yap yap! Stick to Michigan politics!!
I respect smokstick for having the balls to come on here to help sportsman stay informed and show that he cares. I have never supported WY SFW but I think I might start, I will put in an extra $180 in your name. You attempt to draw him into an fight with your "write a check" statement, when you had no intent to join, Buzz would spank your little lap dog azz!
I respect smokestick more for blowing you off...
Most everything you say about SFW Topgun it's Baahaa! Baahaa! or Yap yap! Stick to Michigan politics!!
wolfhunter
Active Member
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- 434
wapitibob
From what I have seen WY SFW is completely different from Utah SFW. I would not know about Utah tags. I would say it sure looked like abunch of Utah hunters did not mind putting a few dollars in for the "EXBO TAGS" to get their name in for those tags!!
From what I have seen WY SFW is completely different from Utah SFW. I would not know about Utah tags. I would say it sure looked like abunch of Utah hunters did not mind putting a few dollars in for the "EXBO TAGS" to get their name in for those tags!!
Are you really as dumb as your last couple posts make it look, LOL! You don't know me from a can of paint and now you come on here and tell me I was starting a fight and had no intent to write that check and join. I'll tell you what. If Smokestick will come on this thread like I have asked and will give me an honest answer that I asked for, I'll send you the check so you can forward it to him! You have basically called me a liar in that last post and I don't take kindly to that. I will tell you where you can stick your $180 though and it's where the sun don't shine. You go ahead and do what you want and respect whomever you want. I'll respect that person when they show they deserve it! I'm starting to believe that you're the one living in MI with what little you seem to know what's going on right out in your own neighborhood! Incidentally, in case you haven't figured it out yet, every time you call me out about SFW, you're calling out the biggest percentage of members on this site who also feel the same way as I do!
wolfhunter
Active Member
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- 434
like i said topgun your just a sheep! kind of funny how you ramp up the personal attacks the closer to the truth about you i get!!!!!!
Me ramp up the personal attacks, LOL! Who the he** came on this thread and started this by calling names? You, that's who! You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you in the Azz buddy! The more you type the more I wonder if your IQ is double or single digits!!! I'm done because you're a waste of time, so come back and talk to yourself all you want. I'm going to watch the BB games.
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
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- 852
Well a lot has been said while I have been off attending G&F Commission meetings, WY SFW Committee meetings, etc.
I like how TOPGUN assumed that I was avoiding answering his question. The truth is I do not want his $30.00 as I doubt he really wants to be a member of WY SFW. Membership means something to me and I take my responsibilities seriously.
It also amazes me that some how it is more noble to act as a volunteer than to be paid as you deliver results.
I am proud of what WY SFW has been able to accomplish and will continue to ask all of the naysayers to identify where WY SFW has caused the average guy harm? Some may not like positions we have taken, some clearly do not understand positions we have taken nor do they want to understand. I answer to my Board of Directors and I trust that they are listening to the members which they represent. I will tackle the issues as they are identified by my Board & our members. I believe that is what is expected of me. As I have stated before, our members are both our strength & our Achilles heal.
Sorry, TOPGUN, but that is my answer. You can call me names, etc. but I do not have time to monitor everything on this site or any other as I have responsibilities to which I must attend.
I like how TOPGUN assumed that I was avoiding answering his question. The truth is I do not want his $30.00 as I doubt he really wants to be a member of WY SFW. Membership means something to me and I take my responsibilities seriously.
It also amazes me that some how it is more noble to act as a volunteer than to be paid as you deliver results.
I am proud of what WY SFW has been able to accomplish and will continue to ask all of the naysayers to identify where WY SFW has caused the average guy harm? Some may not like positions we have taken, some clearly do not understand positions we have taken nor do they want to understand. I answer to my Board of Directors and I trust that they are listening to the members which they represent. I will tackle the issues as they are identified by my Board & our members. I believe that is what is expected of me. As I have stated before, our members are both our strength & our Achilles heal.
Sorry, TOPGUN, but that is my answer. You can call me names, etc. but I do not have time to monitor everything on this site or any other as I have responsibilities to which I must attend.
LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-12 AT 02:53PM (MST)[p]Smokestick stated: "It also amazes me that some how it is more noble to act as a volunteer than to be paid as you deliver results." Huh?
I will apologize since you seem to be offended, but I read my post and don't believe I called you any names! I assumed your avoiding my question was the same as has happened before when several of us have asked pertinent questions and never had them answered. You have now come on and made a long post with what you usually post (tell us how we have hurt.....)when you could just as easily answered the question! I am dead serious in that my best buddy in Sheridan belongs to the organization and speaks well of the WY group. If you would just answer my one question I will honestly send you a check and join the group even though I can't do any hands on work because I'm 1500 miles from you. I'd like to think the WY group is different from Utah and is getting work done without following the parent group's tactics. I hunt in Wyoming each Fall and don't just take for granted things that need to be accomplished and what it takes to do it. I find it hard to believe that when a person wants to join that you would issue that kind of a negative response since you stated you were speaking for your organization. That is not being transparent when a person asks the SFW Representative a simple, straight forward question that should be easily answered one way or the other. This is basically what everyone has a problem with and that's a lack of transparency amongst it's leaders.
I will apologize since you seem to be offended, but I read my post and don't believe I called you any names! I assumed your avoiding my question was the same as has happened before when several of us have asked pertinent questions and never had them answered. You have now come on and made a long post with what you usually post (tell us how we have hurt.....)when you could just as easily answered the question! I am dead serious in that my best buddy in Sheridan belongs to the organization and speaks well of the WY group. If you would just answer my one question I will honestly send you a check and join the group even though I can't do any hands on work because I'm 1500 miles from you. I'd like to think the WY group is different from Utah and is getting work done without following the parent group's tactics. I hunt in Wyoming each Fall and don't just take for granted things that need to be accomplished and what it takes to do it. I find it hard to believe that when a person wants to join that you would issue that kind of a negative response since you stated you were speaking for your organization. That is not being transparent when a person asks the SFW Representative a simple, straight forward question that should be easily answered one way or the other. This is basically what everyone has a problem with and that's a lack of transparency amongst it's leaders.
W
wyowill
Guest
With all of the talk about special tags that have been mentioned in this thread, I had to look at the Commissioners website to see just how many tags have been given out and to which organizations. I didn't number all of the tags but found that SFW in Wyoming received 3 commissioner tags; Ducks Unlimited received 3 tags; trout unlimited received 3 tags; Walleyes unlimited received 2 tags. The big winner seems to the Wyoming Wildlife Foundation. Not certain how their organization is broken down, but The Foundation received a total of 9 tags and the Wyoming Wildlife Federation received 5 tags. There were some tags given to others. I believe the RMEF received 2 tags. I am not familiar with the operation in Utah. It appears that they have a lot more special tags for hunts than Wyoming does. They have special tags for special hunts in specific regions or areas. The Commissioners tags in Wyoming are the only "special" tags that I am aware of that can be granted to organizations for fund raising purposes. However, there is a whole lot more to this "special" hunting stuff that I don't know. I know that Utah handles their landowner tags in a completely different manner than Wyoming does and have done so for several years it seems. I am not certain what all of this had to do with the main question of "Am I hunting wolves this year?" but it has made for some interesting reading.
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
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- 852
TOPGUN,
You might not have called me any names; however, you continue to state that I am avoiding answering your question when it was answered in my last post.
I did answer your question; "I answer to my Board of Directors and I trust that they are listening to the members which they represent. I will tackle the issues as they are identified by my Board & our members. I believe that is what is expected of me."
I do not take positions nor make statements to recruit members. The SFW model is really simply; if you do good things people will want to belong to SFW, if you do bad things people will not want to belong to SFW!
I do not have a crystal ball nor does anyone on my Board of Directors.
Furthermore, you are so derogatory towards SFW in general and speak so disparagingly of me and WY SFW that I do not for one second believe you are sincere in your offer to join WY SFW nor do I believe you truly want to be a member of our organization. As I stated earlier; membership means something to me! I think you are better off to keep your $30 until you truly understand what SFW stands for and its mission. Do you even know what our mission statement is? Your past statements lead me to believe that you do not know or understand our mission.
You might not have called me any names; however, you continue to state that I am avoiding answering your question when it was answered in my last post.
I did answer your question; "I answer to my Board of Directors and I trust that they are listening to the members which they represent. I will tackle the issues as they are identified by my Board & our members. I believe that is what is expected of me."
I do not take positions nor make statements to recruit members. The SFW model is really simply; if you do good things people will want to belong to SFW, if you do bad things people will not want to belong to SFW!
I do not have a crystal ball nor does anyone on my Board of Directors.
Furthermore, you are so derogatory towards SFW in general and speak so disparagingly of me and WY SFW that I do not for one second believe you are sincere in your offer to join WY SFW nor do I believe you truly want to be a member of our organization. As I stated earlier; membership means something to me! I think you are better off to keep your $30 until you truly understand what SFW stands for and its mission. Do you even know what our mission statement is? Your past statements lead me to believe that you do not know or understand our mission.
I just got back from Texas yesterday and see that I now have a roundabout answer to my question, so I guess it will have to be left at that! We'll just have to wonder if that means that in the future the WYoming B of Ds will ask for tags just like the AZ group has done and in a very devious way. It seems as though one of the head honchos that Don had set up the SFW in AZ, even though it was set up as a separate entity and isn't technically a Chapter of the Utah group, said they would never seek tags like the Utah SFW! Yea, right! Some time ago I asked if Smokestick moved from Utah to Wyoming with the help of DP and the UTSFW to set up the Wyoming group and never did get an answer. Seeing as how the WY group has already tried to get outfitter set aside tags and hasn't done anything to set aside the NR wilderness hunting rule, I guess maybe I will keep my $30 and donate it to an organization like the NWTF that puts almost all of it back on the ground.
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
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Sorry but I do not recall you asking about why I live in Wyoming but no Don did not move me up to Wyoming. I worked for a ranch where the HQ's was located in Woodruff, UT. When I went to work for the MDF, I made a conscious decision to move to Wyoming. You continue to make false statements about WY SFW so I am glad that you didn't part with your $30. WY SFW has not done anything about the NR wilderness bill because it is not our issue. However, in case you are ignorant of the facts, the rule has been challenged at least twice that I know of. Both times the law won. Now that you know that, tell me once more why WY SFW would want to take on this issue again?
Rather than give you the answer you wanted, I told you to keep your $30. I work for my B of Directors and we answer to our members. Guess you don't like the fact that I would rather tell the truth than have you as a member.
Rather than give you the answer you wanted, I told you to keep your $30. I work for my B of Directors and we answer to our members. Guess you don't like the fact that I would rather tell the truth than have you as a member.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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- 6,139
LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-12 AT 04:11PM (MST)[p]Now that you know that, tell me once more why WY SFW would want to take on this issue again?
SFW wouldnt be interested in taking on that issue...no money it for them. Plus, who cares about those pesky NR's that fund a lions share of the G&F budget getting equal access to public wildlife resources.
Exact reason why SFW is not endearing itself to the average DIY hunter.
Just sayin'...
SFW wouldnt be interested in taking on that issue...no money it for them. Plus, who cares about those pesky NR's that fund a lions share of the G&F budget getting equal access to public wildlife resources.
Exact reason why SFW is not endearing itself to the average DIY hunter.
Just sayin'...
mightyhunter
Very Active Member
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- 1,183
In an attempt to get this thread back on track you might want to read this.
http://www.powelltribune.com/news/item/9488-wolf-hunt-season-outlined
http://www.powelltribune.com/news/item/9488-wolf-hunt-season-outlined
LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-12 AT 06:04PM (MST)[p]
Smokestick---I didn't want an answer I wanted to hear, but rather the truth whatever that may be! I also am familiar with the lawsuits that were brought up regarding the NR wilderness restriction and know for a fact that SFW did nothing in behalf of the litigants who brought the suits. Therefore, how can you even intimate about SFW looking into it again when they didn't do anything to help to begin with when it may have mattered? That tells me exactly what BuzzH just mentioned in his post and ties right in with the other fact that SFW was instrumental in trying to help outfitters get set aside tags similar to what Montana had until this past season. The quote of yours in the media in regards to corner jumping didn't endear anybody with you either when you seemed to state that you were more concerned with landowner rights. What about the DIY hunter's rights to hunt property that should be and could be accessed with no harm to those landowners? Now if you will be so kind, please tell me what lies I have told about WYSFW! I have made statements that they have done some good, but if they are a Chapter of UtahSFW that DP started, they have a lot of excessive baggage to get rid of IMHO. Why doesn't WYSFW disassociate with the parent group and go out on their own to get the stink off? I would bet you would double your membership in a year or two if that were the case.
BuzzH---You better be careful announcing that you are getting all those tags this Fall. You may be accused of being a game hog, LOL!!!
Smokestick---I didn't want an answer I wanted to hear, but rather the truth whatever that may be! I also am familiar with the lawsuits that were brought up regarding the NR wilderness restriction and know for a fact that SFW did nothing in behalf of the litigants who brought the suits. Therefore, how can you even intimate about SFW looking into it again when they didn't do anything to help to begin with when it may have mattered? That tells me exactly what BuzzH just mentioned in his post and ties right in with the other fact that SFW was instrumental in trying to help outfitters get set aside tags similar to what Montana had until this past season. The quote of yours in the media in regards to corner jumping didn't endear anybody with you either when you seemed to state that you were more concerned with landowner rights. What about the DIY hunter's rights to hunt property that should be and could be accessed with no harm to those landowners? Now if you will be so kind, please tell me what lies I have told about WYSFW! I have made statements that they have done some good, but if they are a Chapter of UtahSFW that DP started, they have a lot of excessive baggage to get rid of IMHO. Why doesn't WYSFW disassociate with the parent group and go out on their own to get the stink off? I would bet you would double your membership in a year or two if that were the case.
BuzzH---You better be careful announcing that you are getting all those tags this Fall. You may be accused of being a game hog, LOL!!!
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
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- 852
TOPGUN,
The law suits happened before WY SFW started in Wyoming. I believe you fail to understand that the state of Wyoming was involved in the NR wilderness law. I have no desire to fight a battle against the state until I find a solution to the dilemma the state faces. I have some ideas but have been too busy with wolves, grizzly bears, sage grouse, etc.
We have already had the discussion about our position in regards to outfitters. It was to stabilize the industry not necessarily to set anything aside for outfitters. I know what WY SFW was trying to accomplish whether you want to believe me or not. Had we done something earlier, we might not been in the position we now find ourselves. I believe that elk probably should have been placed in a quota system statewide a few years earlier.
I am not picking sides on the corner crossing issue, I merely stated what the law stated. Private property rights are an important part of American culture & history. WY SFW has been working hard to find a solution to access; however, ignoring the law seldom gains one favor when you are trying to find legislative solutions to improve access. Furthermore, it is not accurate to imply that DIY hunters (or anyone else) have the right to access public lands if those lands do not have public access to them. While I do not like the idea that a landowner can deny access to public lands until the law is changed I will not advocate disregarding the law. I have looked at 2 bills now which have attempted to address this problem; one was this year & one was last year. Has a solution been found yet? No, but WY SFW is still looking for it.
It is not so much lies but misinformation or failure to see beyond your preconceived notions of who WY SFW is and what we are trying to accomplish. We are not the enemy. We may have different perspectives but ultimately we want to see our hunting, fishing and trapping heritage protected and passed on to future generations. We are all entitled to our opinions and as I have said before, we can disagree without being disagreeable.
The law suits happened before WY SFW started in Wyoming. I believe you fail to understand that the state of Wyoming was involved in the NR wilderness law. I have no desire to fight a battle against the state until I find a solution to the dilemma the state faces. I have some ideas but have been too busy with wolves, grizzly bears, sage grouse, etc.
We have already had the discussion about our position in regards to outfitters. It was to stabilize the industry not necessarily to set anything aside for outfitters. I know what WY SFW was trying to accomplish whether you want to believe me or not. Had we done something earlier, we might not been in the position we now find ourselves. I believe that elk probably should have been placed in a quota system statewide a few years earlier.
I am not picking sides on the corner crossing issue, I merely stated what the law stated. Private property rights are an important part of American culture & history. WY SFW has been working hard to find a solution to access; however, ignoring the law seldom gains one favor when you are trying to find legislative solutions to improve access. Furthermore, it is not accurate to imply that DIY hunters (or anyone else) have the right to access public lands if those lands do not have public access to them. While I do not like the idea that a landowner can deny access to public lands until the law is changed I will not advocate disregarding the law. I have looked at 2 bills now which have attempted to address this problem; one was this year & one was last year. Has a solution been found yet? No, but WY SFW is still looking for it.
It is not so much lies but misinformation or failure to see beyond your preconceived notions of who WY SFW is and what we are trying to accomplish. We are not the enemy. We may have different perspectives but ultimately we want to see our hunting, fishing and trapping heritage protected and passed on to future generations. We are all entitled to our opinions and as I have said before, we can disagree without being disagreeable.
I know Wyoming passed that law through their Legislature and there is no friggin reason for the law other than to help subsidize outfitters, period! I can go in any wilderness area any time of the year by myself and can also go in without a gun or bow and do anything legal during the hunting seasons except hunt, which is pure baloney! This excuse you use about SFW trying to help "stablize the industry" is also a bunch of baloney, period! The law is strictly a simple way of providing welfare to a group that should not be subsidized in any way, shape, or form! They are a business that provides a service just like any other business and there should be no welfare or subsidies and they should make it or go OB just like any other business. If SFW is for hunting and passing it on to future generations, then increasing the areas where it can be legally accomplished should be a goal and all of us being allowed into wilderness areas would be a big step in the right direction.
So please tell us what SFW was trying to accomplish that we're not aware of and what does elk being in a quota system have to do with this discussion?
In regards to the corner jumping issue what you have again stated in your post sounds a lot more like you are on the side of the landowner. This landowner rights BS is exactly that when it comes to corner jumping and the fact is that a person does not even set foot on that private property when a corner is marked. The sole reason for a landowner not wanting to allow it is so they can maintain sole use of public land that is owned by all taxpayers and for no other reason! The G&F doesn't even issue a ticket any more when it involves corner jumping even though they suggest that a person not do it. As long as big ranchers have enough Legislators in their pockets, you and I both know nothing will change!
You may not be what persons would call the enemy, but in certain instances like we are discussing you are certainly not helping the average Joe hunter and angler! That's as polite as I can be and if you call this post anything other than stating obvious facts that I disagrre with you on, then I'm sorry!
So please tell us what SFW was trying to accomplish that we're not aware of and what does elk being in a quota system have to do with this discussion?
In regards to the corner jumping issue what you have again stated in your post sounds a lot more like you are on the side of the landowner. This landowner rights BS is exactly that when it comes to corner jumping and the fact is that a person does not even set foot on that private property when a corner is marked. The sole reason for a landowner not wanting to allow it is so they can maintain sole use of public land that is owned by all taxpayers and for no other reason! The G&F doesn't even issue a ticket any more when it involves corner jumping even though they suggest that a person not do it. As long as big ranchers have enough Legislators in their pockets, you and I both know nothing will change!
You may not be what persons would call the enemy, but in certain instances like we are discussing you are certainly not helping the average Joe hunter and angler! That's as polite as I can be and if you call this post anything other than stating obvious facts that I disagrre with you on, then I'm sorry!
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
Congratulations TOPGUN! You have proven my point. It isn't that you are a liar, you just choose to vilify that which you FAIL to understand. Had we stabilized the outfitting industry we would not be spending hours looking at ways to stop the rest of the Cody region from going to a quota system. Once this happens, I believe the entire state will need to go quota for elk as the Jackson region cannot sustain all of the OTC licenses.
If it is more convenient for your neighbor to walk through your backyard to get where they want to go, does that mean you should allow that to happen? Are you assuming that each and every corner of every section is marked? In fact, most sections are not marked which leaves you with a GPS unit that is accurate to approximately 3 meters to find a precise location. You can call the private property rights a bunch of BS but that kind of blatant disregard for the law only exacerbates the situation. While the G&F may not choose to issue you a ticket, most sheriff departments are ran by someone whom is elected. If you think those "big ranchers" have enough political power to sway legislators are you naive enough to think they won't also listen to "big ranchers"?
You continue to assume WY SFW (and imply that I am) is simply out for the rich and desires nothing more than to screw the average Joe. For your information, I am an average Joe! The average Jo's far out number the "rich"; however, divided we will never win. All sportsmen; average, rich, young, old, fat, thin, DIY, outfitters, landowners, etc. need to work together to save our heritage. Your "obvious facts" appear more to be your "obvious opinions" and are far from factual. I don't always agree with everyone I associate with; however, I always try to give them the benefit of doubt, especially when there is no clear cut answer. As a lobbyist, the minute I lie I have no creditability. That is not simply a matter of fact but it is the way I have been taught. I have never lied to you or anyone else. We may see things from a different perspective but I have never tried to be anything other than true to my beliefs and the causes I believe in and support. Yes, I am paid to do a job. I work nonstop to ensure that I deliver for my members.
If it is more convenient for your neighbor to walk through your backyard to get where they want to go, does that mean you should allow that to happen? Are you assuming that each and every corner of every section is marked? In fact, most sections are not marked which leaves you with a GPS unit that is accurate to approximately 3 meters to find a precise location. You can call the private property rights a bunch of BS but that kind of blatant disregard for the law only exacerbates the situation. While the G&F may not choose to issue you a ticket, most sheriff departments are ran by someone whom is elected. If you think those "big ranchers" have enough political power to sway legislators are you naive enough to think they won't also listen to "big ranchers"?
You continue to assume WY SFW (and imply that I am) is simply out for the rich and desires nothing more than to screw the average Joe. For your information, I am an average Joe! The average Jo's far out number the "rich"; however, divided we will never win. All sportsmen; average, rich, young, old, fat, thin, DIY, outfitters, landowners, etc. need to work together to save our heritage. Your "obvious facts" appear more to be your "obvious opinions" and are far from factual. I don't always agree with everyone I associate with; however, I always try to give them the benefit of doubt, especially when there is no clear cut answer. As a lobbyist, the minute I lie I have no creditability. That is not simply a matter of fact but it is the way I have been taught. I have never lied to you or anyone else. We may see things from a different perspective but I have never tried to be anything other than true to my beliefs and the causes I believe in and support. Yes, I am paid to do a job. I work nonstop to ensure that I deliver for my members.
Deerlove
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,037
I opposed the idiot bill that cut y'all out from the get-go...I've always appreciated what our NR guests contribute to my state's budget, and I will continue working to ammeliorate the half-wit logic that led to the successful passage of SB 196.
I am a professional big game guide, and I STRONGLY disagree with the outfitter allocation by quota...its a frikken joke. If you can't pull in business by virtue of your merits as a top expert in your field, then you need to quit pretending, and get the hell out of the way.
The welfare subsidies don't give the good guys anymore business, but they sure seem to help the HACKS out there scrape their pathetic charades along for another year.
Now it makes even less sense, with residents being eligible to draw OF tags, along with the vague 'two day' rule...its just primed for abuse. A bad joke made even worse? Mmm-hmm
Yep, they sure do make some incredibly fanciful decisions in February down at Santa Fe.
Interesting post off the NM forum.
I am a professional big game guide, and I STRONGLY disagree with the outfitter allocation by quota...its a frikken joke. If you can't pull in business by virtue of your merits as a top expert in your field, then you need to quit pretending, and get the hell out of the way.
The welfare subsidies don't give the good guys anymore business, but they sure seem to help the HACKS out there scrape their pathetic charades along for another year.
Now it makes even less sense, with residents being eligible to draw OF tags, along with the vague 'two day' rule...its just primed for abuse. A bad joke made even worse? Mmm-hmm
Yep, they sure do make some incredibly fanciful decisions in February down at Santa Fe.
Interesting post off the NM forum.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,139
Smokestick,
Couple points...for starters if you think handheld GPS units are only accurate to 3 meters, you havent used one lately. I use them at work daily, 2-3 foot accuracy all day long. I find our plot stakes (about 6-8 inches long and the diamter of a clothes hanger) and rarely am I more than 2-3 feet off when the GPS coords zero.
I'm also growing tired of the "well the section markers arent there". Yeah, I'm sure it happens, but I can tell you that a vast majority of them ARE there. I found every single corner marker I looked for in the Wilderness area I elk hunt in. One of the guys I hunt with has found many of them, and asked me to look for a few he hadnt found. He also assumed they werent there, but I found them all with a lowly garmin60s and huntinggps maps software.
Further, the entitlement attitude that ranchers have for MY PUBLIC LANDS is something that every single sporting club in the Western U.S. should be tackling. You say your group is for the average guy...well then prove it...for once. You say you lobby, well lets all (rich, wealthy, average, etc. etc.) get together and draft legislation to legalize corner crossing. Maybe all those rich type folks, who buy auction tags, could write some checks for the cause to show their solidarity with us average joes. I mean, after all, we're all on the same team here...right?
Also, a question you failed to answer, that you bring up all the time, is how WYSFW just wanted to stabilize the outfitting industry. You never answered the question on how SFW intended to do that. What was the plan? Post it up, I'm all ears.
I also think you're dead wrong on elk going LQ statewide. Why in the good Christ would you do that when elk are over-objective in nearly every general unit in the state? Once again, applying statewide management to solve problems that dont exist in a majority of the general units.
Its no wonder nothing gets solved in this State...those with the supposed "connections" dont have the stones to do whats right by wildlife...let alone the average DIY public land hunter.
Couple points...for starters if you think handheld GPS units are only accurate to 3 meters, you havent used one lately. I use them at work daily, 2-3 foot accuracy all day long. I find our plot stakes (about 6-8 inches long and the diamter of a clothes hanger) and rarely am I more than 2-3 feet off when the GPS coords zero.
I'm also growing tired of the "well the section markers arent there". Yeah, I'm sure it happens, but I can tell you that a vast majority of them ARE there. I found every single corner marker I looked for in the Wilderness area I elk hunt in. One of the guys I hunt with has found many of them, and asked me to look for a few he hadnt found. He also assumed they werent there, but I found them all with a lowly garmin60s and huntinggps maps software.
Further, the entitlement attitude that ranchers have for MY PUBLIC LANDS is something that every single sporting club in the Western U.S. should be tackling. You say your group is for the average guy...well then prove it...for once. You say you lobby, well lets all (rich, wealthy, average, etc. etc.) get together and draft legislation to legalize corner crossing. Maybe all those rich type folks, who buy auction tags, could write some checks for the cause to show their solidarity with us average joes. I mean, after all, we're all on the same team here...right?
Also, a question you failed to answer, that you bring up all the time, is how WYSFW just wanted to stabilize the outfitting industry. You never answered the question on how SFW intended to do that. What was the plan? Post it up, I'm all ears.
I also think you're dead wrong on elk going LQ statewide. Why in the good Christ would you do that when elk are over-objective in nearly every general unit in the state? Once again, applying statewide management to solve problems that dont exist in a majority of the general units.
Its no wonder nothing gets solved in this State...those with the supposed "connections" dont have the stones to do whats right by wildlife...let alone the average DIY public land hunter.
So why not say what you mean and quit beating around the bush! Being a NR with all of our tags done by drawing, how was I to know why you were tying elk draws in with outfitter subsidies? Anyway, I guess on that we can agree to disagree because there is no way I can see how the outfitters can be "stabilized" by doing anything other than giving them advantages in the system that they have no right to, whether it be set aside tags, NR wilderness restrictions that require using them, etc.! Since you will not not say what your ideas were, I guess maybe they were not favored by enough people to get them accomplished.
Your statements on corner jumping is very typical of a lobbyist or politician who stretches what was said. Nowhere did I say private property rights is BS! Also, show me where I said anything about setting foot on a person's private property. I said "if the corner is marked"! There is no way you are setting foot on anything but public property in that scenario and that's a far cry from your stretching it out to what you did and then saying I have a blatant disregard for the law! As a retired LE Investigator for the State of Michigan with over 30 years of service I do not care to be called a violator of anything!!! I'm also not so naive to think that the County Sheriff and Prosecutors won't prosecute someone based on a rancher that has them in their pocket. However, it is not that way everywhere and several years ago when a rancher tried to have a Deputy ticket us for trespassing when we were'nt, I took it to the Prosecutor's Office and made the rancher look like the jackass he is with our maps and GPS equipment. Lastly, you are still saying my facts are not factual, but have offered no facts of your own to disprove them. I'm not even going to get into what most people's concept or opinion is on lobbyists because then you might really be offended! Again I will say that your organization probably is doing a lot of good grass root projects. However, it doesn't take much to overshadow those accomplishments when you are tied in with whom many consider less than stellar and some an outright thief! No need to respond again as we are getting nohwere fast with no facts to back up your statements or answers to my questions!
Your statements on corner jumping is very typical of a lobbyist or politician who stretches what was said. Nowhere did I say private property rights is BS! Also, show me where I said anything about setting foot on a person's private property. I said "if the corner is marked"! There is no way you are setting foot on anything but public property in that scenario and that's a far cry from your stretching it out to what you did and then saying I have a blatant disregard for the law! As a retired LE Investigator for the State of Michigan with over 30 years of service I do not care to be called a violator of anything!!! I'm also not so naive to think that the County Sheriff and Prosecutors won't prosecute someone based on a rancher that has them in their pocket. However, it is not that way everywhere and several years ago when a rancher tried to have a Deputy ticket us for trespassing when we were'nt, I took it to the Prosecutor's Office and made the rancher look like the jackass he is with our maps and GPS equipment. Lastly, you are still saying my facts are not factual, but have offered no facts of your own to disprove them. I'm not even going to get into what most people's concept or opinion is on lobbyists because then you might really be offended! Again I will say that your organization probably is doing a lot of good grass root projects. However, it doesn't take much to overshadow those accomplishments when you are tied in with whom many consider less than stellar and some an outright thief! No need to respond again as we are getting nohwere fast with no facts to back up your statements or answers to my questions!
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
BuzzH,
So you can get within 2-3 feet, that is great but you are still looking for a pin point. You are probably a lot better than most people and there is no doubt that you are better at it than am I; however, if you are off you are off. I have not spent any where near the amount of time you spend working with GPS units or looking for marked sections; however, I still question how many sections actually have markers. I found some old trees that have been used as reference points, etc. and never found the actual section marker. Other times, I have been able to locate them. Mind you, I am not calling you a liar or implying that you are wrong, simply stating my experiences.
I agree that SOME private landowners have an attitude that MY PUBLIC LAND is theirs as well. I have had landowners try to run me off of PUBLIC LAND which I had legal access too. The landowner would not come over and have a fact-to-face discussion; instead, he sent over one of his guides. I was not very nice to his guide & basically told him to tell the landowner to come over and I would gladly talk with him about where I was hunting. I also told him that it was against the law for him to interfere with my hunt and that the next time I would be pressing charges against him. When you have the law on your side you can be much more bold than when you do not.
Rather than looking for access via corner crossing, I believe it would be more productive to try and block up BLM lands rather than leave them in a checkerboard pattern that doesn't work very well for land managers. If you have some ideas on what we can try, I would be more than willing to sit down and discuss it with you. I know that Rep. Harshman & Sen. Scott both have tried to elevate this issue but so far it has not gone very far. I know at one time the BLM office in Sheridan County (or it might have been Johnson County) was working on generating a map which was a bit different than most of us are accustomed to; white-private, green-USFS, yellow-BLM and blue-State. Instead it was green-high accessibility, yellow-moderate accessibility and red-no or low accessibility. If we could get enough support to get this done statewide we could use the WWNRT to purchase access easements as well. I have already told the AG lobby that and they know that they cannot defend those landowners which are intentionally and strategically purchasing private lands with the intent to shut out the public.
I guess the easiest way to explain the concept of stabilizing the outfitting industry is to ask the question; do we have too many outfitters, just the right amount, or not enough? The fact that WY SFW was asked to help stabilize the industry to me meant that the Outfitter association thought one of 2 things was going on; either we had too many outfitters or that we didn't have enough resources. Rather than show my cards on a public forum, lets you and me have lunch sometime and talk about it. I just deleted a lot of stuff as I thought it might be more prudent to handle this another way.
I also want to make it absolutely clear that neither WY SFW nor myself are advocating for statewide limited entry elk or deer hunts. I believe after we talk about this outfitter problem (in particular the Cody Region), you will see how these two topics are intertwined. The last thing I want is limited quota hunting as most of the problems I am seeing are not related to bull:cow or buck:doe ratios but rather they are production related.
Let me know when you will be around. If you need my number, let me know.
So you can get within 2-3 feet, that is great but you are still looking for a pin point. You are probably a lot better than most people and there is no doubt that you are better at it than am I; however, if you are off you are off. I have not spent any where near the amount of time you spend working with GPS units or looking for marked sections; however, I still question how many sections actually have markers. I found some old trees that have been used as reference points, etc. and never found the actual section marker. Other times, I have been able to locate them. Mind you, I am not calling you a liar or implying that you are wrong, simply stating my experiences.
I agree that SOME private landowners have an attitude that MY PUBLIC LAND is theirs as well. I have had landowners try to run me off of PUBLIC LAND which I had legal access too. The landowner would not come over and have a fact-to-face discussion; instead, he sent over one of his guides. I was not very nice to his guide & basically told him to tell the landowner to come over and I would gladly talk with him about where I was hunting. I also told him that it was against the law for him to interfere with my hunt and that the next time I would be pressing charges against him. When you have the law on your side you can be much more bold than when you do not.
Rather than looking for access via corner crossing, I believe it would be more productive to try and block up BLM lands rather than leave them in a checkerboard pattern that doesn't work very well for land managers. If you have some ideas on what we can try, I would be more than willing to sit down and discuss it with you. I know that Rep. Harshman & Sen. Scott both have tried to elevate this issue but so far it has not gone very far. I know at one time the BLM office in Sheridan County (or it might have been Johnson County) was working on generating a map which was a bit different than most of us are accustomed to; white-private, green-USFS, yellow-BLM and blue-State. Instead it was green-high accessibility, yellow-moderate accessibility and red-no or low accessibility. If we could get enough support to get this done statewide we could use the WWNRT to purchase access easements as well. I have already told the AG lobby that and they know that they cannot defend those landowners which are intentionally and strategically purchasing private lands with the intent to shut out the public.
I guess the easiest way to explain the concept of stabilizing the outfitting industry is to ask the question; do we have too many outfitters, just the right amount, or not enough? The fact that WY SFW was asked to help stabilize the industry to me meant that the Outfitter association thought one of 2 things was going on; either we had too many outfitters or that we didn't have enough resources. Rather than show my cards on a public forum, lets you and me have lunch sometime and talk about it. I just deleted a lot of stuff as I thought it might be more prudent to handle this another way.
I also want to make it absolutely clear that neither WY SFW nor myself are advocating for statewide limited entry elk or deer hunts. I believe after we talk about this outfitter problem (in particular the Cody Region), you will see how these two topics are intertwined. The last thing I want is limited quota hunting as most of the problems I am seeing are not related to bull:cow or buck:doe ratios but rather they are production related.
Let me know when you will be around. If you need my number, let me know.
nontypical
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,206
So,ChubbyTuna....Does that answer your question?My hope is that you will indeed be hunting wolves this year!It's looking like that may happen!At least for a couple weeks.
mightyhunter
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,183
PleaseDear
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,438
Dang good read.
Thanks for the heads-up m-hunter...
I am so hopefull for this to proceed nice and smooth......into the future.
Robb
Thanks for the heads-up m-hunter...
I am so hopefull for this to proceed nice and smooth......into the future.
Robb
Wyoming Hunting Guides & Outfitters
Urge 2 Hunt
We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.
