Another 90/10 Thread

[sb2017]

I did a search of this topic before posting it but I only found one thread that was created after the bill had actually passed, and it had spiraled so far out of relevance to the topic that commenting was disabled... so here goes:

I have tried googling and trying to make sense of this for myself, but could really use some help from someone more knowledgeable than me on the topic.

As a non-res, I don't stand to benefit from the bill at all but if I'm being perfectly objective, it really doesn't seem unreasonable. If I'm understanding it correctly, what it seems to me is that Wyoming transitioned from being extremely generous with NR tags, and adjusted their allocation to fall more in line with other states. So it stings a little bit as an NR to go from the generous system to the status quo system, but what can you do.

What it does bring up for me, is questioning what to do moving forward. From reading the overall vibe from a lot of other NR hunters, it seems that we will see a mass exodus away from buying Wyoming points every year. For the folks willing to stick around and continue paying for them, that will be a good thing, right?

I'm in limbo with 13 points for most species. My total for Wy points each year is just shy of $500. The way I see it, if I can reasonably still expect to draw ONE license in Wy in the next 10-15 years (I've only been putting in for the premium hunts), that's another $5k-$7k I will be putting towards drawing a tag. I'm not made of money, but that's 100% worth it to me to draw a premium hunt in Wyoming. (I'm aware that my math above doesn't account for the money spent on my current points, but that's irrelevant to me because that money is spent and gone already. No sense in crying over spilled milk)

Where it would start to get gray for me, is if I'm misunderstanding the new system and have mathematically zero chance at drawing tags somehow. I read an article a while back that made some sort of case for being mathematically eliminated from drawing until you have 50+ points, but something about that didn't sound right to me. There will continue to be NR applicants drawing tags and cashing out points, and I will continue to accrue them, and eventually I will be in the realm of NR hunters who have a reasonable chance at drawing one of the few tags allotted for us.

Am I way off with my thought process here? Are there enough hunters ahead of me in points, and so few tags being dished out, that I will never realistically be near the top of the points pool?

 

[Zeke]

Admittedly, I'm no expert but here's my take:

Deer and pronghorn and even something like elk is probably attainable for you with 13 points but for sheep and moose, 13 points isn't getting you anything under the current system.

There's talk about converting preference points to bonus point where everyone has a "chance" but the odds are that the vast preponderance of applicants will NOT draw a great OIL tag in their lifetime now. It's simply not mathematically possible that all applicants will draw....

Always optimistic but realistic,
Zeke

 

[sb2017]

Thanks for the input! Maybe I'd be better off putting the $300 for sheep and moose points to 10 chances at the trifecta tag

 

[SS!]

The way I look at it is likely focked up but it goes like this:

1) systems change and may one day change in your favor

2) as time goes on you should in theory be making more money. Get to the point where throwing a couple thousand dollars in points isn’t even something one has to think twice about

3) can’t draw if you don’t play

 

[sb2017]

The way I look at it is likely focked up but it goes like this:

1) systems change and may one day change in your favor

2) as time goes on you should in theory be making more money. Get to the point where throwing a couple thousand dollars in points isn’t even something one has to think twice about

3) can’t draw if you don’t play

I appreciate your thoughts!

1- I agree completely. If it's true that hunters are essentially mathematically eliminated from drawing certain species, I'm willing to bet there will be some sort of reform.

2- As soon as my OnlyFans gets a little more publicity I will be able to buy every state's gov tag twice

3- This is my mindset in all walks of life and why I lose hundreds of dollars to tag and rifle raffles every year

 

[LivingTheDream]

You will never draw sheep or moose with preference points under the current system. You could draw a random tag.

If they switch to bonus points you will be happy you bought points especially if points are squared or cubed.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I appreciate your thoughts!

1- I agree completely. If it's true that hunters are essentially mathematically eliminated from drawing certain species, I'm willing to bet there will be some sort of reform.

2- As soon as my OnlyFans gets a little more publicity I will be able to buy every state's gov tag twice

3- This is my mindset in all walks of life and why I lose hundreds of dollars to tag and rifle raffles every year

If you don't start sharing your OF link and handle you are never going to get any traffic.

 

[PLK]

sb2017,
First of all, you should be aware that 90/10 only applies to the big 5 (moose, sheep, mountain goat, bison, and grizzly bear).

With 13 points for deer, elk, and antelope you already are able to draw premium hunts. You could easily draw Region G for deer, numerous premium antelope units and some very good elk units. If you are thinking about drawing a deer, elk or antelope tag in the next 10-15 years that currently requires maximum points; you will most likely never draw any of those tags.

With 13 points for sheep and moose, you will most likely only have a chance in the random draw in the next 10-15 years.

just my 2 cents.

 

[sb2017]

PLK,

Thank you for the info and input. I didn't choose my wording very well when I said premium. I meant that I am currently collecting points in hopes of drawing a top hunt in the future. A few years ago I realized that actually applying for the tags I'm hoping for is a waste of time/money until I have more points, so I have just been skipping the applications and buying points each year.

I'm interested to hear more about why you say I will most likely never draw any of the max point hunts? **knock on wood** I've still got many years of applying/hunting ahead of me so I'm staying hopeful that that is not the case. It's hard to imagine not having at least a chance at one of the top hunts with 28+ points, but I may be way off.

 

[treedagain]

PLK,

Thank you for the info and input. I didn't choose my wording very well when I said premium. I meant that I am currently collecting points in hopes of drawing a top hunt in the future. A few years ago I realized that actually applying for the tags I'm hoping for is a waste of time/money until I have more points, so I have just been skipping the applications and buying points each year.

I'm interested to hear more about why you say I will most likely never draw any of the max point hunts? **knock on wood** I've still got many years of applying/hunting ahead of me so I'm staying hopeful that that is not the case. It's hard to imagine not having at least a chance at one of the top hunts with 28+ points, but I may be way off.

You won't draw unless you put in. I drew a random tag with zero points for a great unit

 

[hunt30]

It is not reasonable to expect that you will ever draw a tag for the moose or sheep in your lifetime. Yes, the system could change, but if it does, it will likely make your nonexistent chance of drawing a tag worse, not better. Think 90/5/5 or something of the sort. Yes, you could get lucky and draw and random tag. And you cant get lucky if you don’t apply. But you don’t need your preference points to get lucky.

 

[llamapacker]

There are so many people ahead of you in the sheep and moose drawings that you will never draw in your lifetime based on your points. Of course the system can change, but under the current system you would need well over 100 years to get in the top point pool. It is a complete waste of money to just buy these points in hopes of drawing a tag based on your points.

For deer, elk, and antelope the situation is different, but you have enough points to draw a great tag. If you are chasing the few units that require MAX points, then once again you will never catch those ahead of you. While some of those hunts have a random tag, you can't draw by accumulating points. You are literally throwing your money away just buying points.

Wyoming thanks you, but you are so far behind it is mathematically impossible to become a top point holder. You need a change to the system, at which point nobody knows what they will do with current points.

Bill

 

[jims]

I pulled the plug on sheep years ago. Also was super glad to draw a moose tag years ago before wolf/grizz took a major toll on the moose population and tags. I doubt if the moose population will ever increase back to where they were years ago?

Deer, elk, antelope all hinges around what happens to nonres quotas and the number of each critter roaming the hills. Obviously if nonres quotas are cut in 1/2 that will mean it will take around twice the years to draw the same tag.

The deer and antelope populations throughout Wyo are truly horrible in recent years. I saw more antelope fawns that actually survived through the summer for the first time in many years this fall…which is encouraging. With habitat improvements, highway fencing, predator control and decent winters, moisture, etc may improve that situation. A couple of tough winters, disease, etc and tags could be cut even more severely.

Elk numbers are pretty high throughout most of Wyo with a lot of cow and bull tags. Obviously if nonres tags are cut it in 1/2 it will take longer to draw…especially high demand units.

My guess is that with rumors of 90/10 for d/e/a and more nonres currently applying for tags each year that draw odds for nonres will continue to drop significantly. Pref pt creep will continue to rise as nonres try to draw tags to get out of the pref pt ball game and possibly try to beat severe nonres tag quota cuts.

 

[Zeke]

I agree with "You cannot draw if you don't apply" but at some point we have to be realistic and do the simple math like llamapacker did.

It's NOT 10-15 years until you reach the top, it's 100-150 years!!!
Remember: 10 points behind is NOT ten years behind!!!! Do the math.

With that said, you could, might, maybe, hopefully, beat the lotto odds and draw a random tag but.... is that what you're banking on?

Like I said, the resource is limited and there will never be enough tags issued for everyone to draw even if you had 20+ for sheep and moose. If my adult kids didn't have 20+ points, I told then to not bother with Wyo points for sheep and moose.

Just facts...laced with a little opinion,
Zeke

 

[LIK2HNT]

If enough people realize that and drop out, odds might improve for those of us spending money on points. ?

 

[BrianID]

This thread is another example of how point systems are bad for most hunters and good for states to get extra $$. Unless you are close to max points for Wyoming moose/goat/sheep, you are wasting a bunch of money. I'm very glade I didn't waste the money 15 years ago on Wyoming moose/sheep/goat when I was thinking about it. I did the math and saw it for the scam that it is.

 

[BrianID]

If enough people realize that and drop out, odds might improve for those of us spending money on points. ?

Even if 90% of the guys dropped out, those with 13 current points wouldn't be getting preference tag in the next 10 years.

 

[LIK2HNT]

This thread is another example of how point systems are bad for most hunters and good for states to get extra $$. Unless you are close to max points for Wyoming moose/goat/sheep, you are wasting a bunch of money. I'm very glade I didn't waste the money 15 years ago on Wyoming moose/sheep/goat when I was thinking about it. I did the math and saw it for the scam that it is.

True, but some of us (I am at 23 sheep points) are to invested to quit. Keeping fingers crossed my time will come.

 

[BrianID]

True, but some of us (I am at 23 sheep points) are to invested to quit. Keeping fingers crossed my time will come.

I wish I would have started 23 years ago on Wyoming Moose/goat/sheep but I wasn't think long term like that when I was a teenager. In my 20's I started to think long term for hunt options but I was already too far behind the game in Wyoming for Moose/sheep.

 

[BrianID]

True, but some of us (I am at 23 sheep points) are to invested to quit. Keeping fingers crossed my time will come.

If 90% of the top point holders would drop out, you would be in a great position to get a sheep tag. You just need your health and desire to hunt to outlast the other top point holders.

 

[LIK2HNT]

I wish I would have started 23 years ago on Wyoming Moose/goat/sheep but I wasn't think long term like that when I was a teenager. In my 20's I started to think long term for hunt options but I was already too far behind the game in Wyoming for Moose/sheep.

I am 59, you sound younger than me. But there will comes a time when I can no longer chase sheep. I will most likely die with sheep points (and other species) in multiple states. But until then will keep giving it my all and keep my fingers crossed every draw.

 

[sticksender]

If they don't change the point system to bonus, or make some other major change very soon, there will be ZERO chance to draw a NR sheep or moose license under the current rules for all but the highest tiers of NR point holders. This would hold true for the decades it will take to clear out those people in the top 2 or 3 point pools. This is because under the current rules for NR allocation, the random sheep tags have been eliminated, and there is at most 1 moose tag left in the random for NR. It will be interesting to see how this fact is presented for the upcoming 2023 draw.

 

[BrianID]

If they don't change the point system to bonus, or make some other major change very soon, there will be ZERO chance to draw a NR sheep or moose license under the current rules for all but the highest tiers of NR point holders. This would hold true for the decades it will take to clear out those people in the top 2 or 3 point pools. This is because under the current rules for NR allocation, the random sheep tags have been eliminated, and there is at most 1 moose tag left in the random for NR. It will be interesting to see how this fact is presented for the upcoming 2023 draw.

If they change it to a bonus system, that will be another bad deal for those top point holders that have been giving money to Wyoming for 20+ year with the thought they would have a decent chance of getting a tag.

 

[BrianID]

I am 59, you sound younger than me. But there will comes a time when I can no longer chase sheep. I will most likely die with sheep points (and other species) in multiple states. But until then will keep giving it my all and keep my fingers crossed every draw.

I'm almost 20 years younger than you. Even if I had started with sheep points in Wyoming when I was 20 years old, I realized that even by the time I'm 50 with 30 points, I wouldn't still be a top point holder. If my health would hold up into my 70's I would have had a decent chance but donating $$ for 50 years seemed like a scam to me. I would rather have a small chance with random odds like Idaho or NM to draw a sheep tag when I'm young, than have a decent chance of getting a tag after 40 or 50 years of points and trying to hunt sheep when I may have some significant health issues.
Outfitters in Wyoming will become specialist in guiding/accommodating geriatric sheep hunters.

 

[Pwrhd]

Interesting discussion. I'm a non-res with 15 & 18 points for moose and sheep, respectively. I just bought points again and am willing to spend the money and wait to maybe one day hunt with my family. I also started buying points for my children as soon as they were old enough. Thoughts on starting so far "ahead" for the kids? I have two others that aren't old enough for points yet but planned to do the same.

 

[BrianID]

Interesting discussion. I'm a non-res with 15 & 18 points for moose and sheep, respectively. I just bought points again and am willing to spend the money and wait to maybe one day hunt with my family. I also started buying points for my children as soon as they were old enough. Thoughts on starting so far "ahead" for the kids? I have two others that aren't old enough for points yet but planned to do the same.

Buying points for children is a gamble. Some of us are born with a drive to hunt and others are not. None of my brothers have put the same effort and time into hunting that I have, even though we grew up under very similar circumstances. Most kids will not have enough interest in hunting sheep or moose to continue buying points for themselves when they are in their 20's and 30's.
Those kids that do have the drive to hunt will be thankful for the head start in points but in all honesty an investment account for your children would be a better choice.

 

[sb2017]

Thanks everyone for the input and honest advice/opinions. Safe to say my situation is a lot less hopeful than I thought it was!

I can't help but have a gambler's mentality, and if the system ever does change in favor of nonresidents who have continued to build points, it would haunt me for a long time if I stopped now.

After the perspectives shared on this thread, I believe my course of action is to continue to donate $$ to Wyoming each year in hopes that we may see a favorable amendment to the system, but I won't hold my breath.

As for deer & elk, I think I'll start searching for where I'd have a reasonable chance at drawing in the next few years to cash out those points.

 

[dvolmer]

If enough people realize that and drop out, odds might improve for those of us spending money on points. ?

That is a pipe-dream to help you not have to come to the conclusion that you are paying to play a game you never have a chance to win. Keep buying the points so you can at least dream about that sheep, moose, and goat on the wall. There are so many people still buying the big-5 preference points that have no chance in their lifetime of getting drawn. You also don’t have to buy points if you are trying to get the one or two random tags so that isn’t an excuse to keep buying the points either. If you are that desperate you would be far ahead not buying the points and taking the money you saved and putting it into the super-tag drawings. At least you would have statistical odds of actually drawing even though they are extremely small. But the real smart guy would save the money that he has been using to buy points for 5 to 10 years and then have enough to go to Canada and go on a nice moose hunt! If you do get lucky enough to draw a tag for moose in Wyoming, the tag itself cost thousands of dollars. Once again, a Canadian moose hunt would be much wiser and smarter and you’d actually be able to hunt some time in your lifetime.

 

[LIK2HNT]

That is a pipe-dream to help you not have to come to the conclusion that you are paying to play a game you never have a chance to win. Keep buying the points so you can at least dream about that sheep, moose, and goat on the wall. There are so many people still buying the big-5 preference points that have no chance in their lifetime of getting drawn. You also don’t have to buy points if you are trying to get the one or two random tags so that isn’t an excuse to keep buying the points either. If you are that desperate you would be far ahead not buying the points and taking the money you saved and putting it into the super-tag drawings. At least you would have statistical odds of actually drawing even though they are extremely small. But the real smart guy would save the money that he has been using to buy points for 5 to 10 years and then have enough to go to Canada and go on a nice moose hunt! If you do get lucky enough to draw a tag for moose in Wyoming, the tag itself cost thousands of dollars. Once again, a Canadian moose hunt would be much wiser and smarter and you’d actually be able to hunt some time in your lifetime.

For the Big5 I only have sheep points (23 of them). Drew moose many years ago. Mtn Goat does not have points. Still worth the try for me to stay in the game for another sheep tag.

 

[PLK]

sb2017;

Attached is a table for you. There are approximately 3,000 people ahead of you in the points game. Approximately 25 sheep tags available to NRs in the draw per year; approximately 5-6 of these available in the NR random draw.

 

[llamapacker]

While the table above is accurate, with the 90/10 change to the NR allocation there are even fewer NR sheep tags next year, and very likely no random tags, but best case would be 1, not the 5 or 6 from previous years. NR sheep tags dropped from 25% of the quota to 10%, really changing the math.

I do expect to see future changes to the draw process, or most will recognize that it is truly impossible to draw unless you are in the very top few point categories.

Although I have to admit, from this thread alone, it seems many don't either understand the math, or would simply prefer to be blindly optimistic when they actually have no chance. The fact is there are people that apply each year in WY for sheep tags in units that don't even offer a single tag for NR's. You might as well light the money on fire and enjoy the warmth.

Again, WY appreciates your support, and will certainly take your money, but it is one thing to hope for a lucky draw, and quite another to put in for a hunt with truly zero chance to draw.

Bill

 

[BuzzH]

If they change it to a bonus system, that will be another bad deal for those top point holders that have been giving money to Wyoming for 20+ year with the thought they would have a decent chance of getting a tag.

That's going to happen, almost a for sure...squared bonus point system in 4 years after the change.

So the top point holders are going to have 4 years to burn their points before they go to squared bonus points.

That's going to keep people buying points and applying.

There really are only 2 choices to hunt sheep unless you live in CA or AK:

Shell out 40k+ or apply in every state and hope to draw.

I've shot a dall, bighorn, and desert and don't have $10K combined in all 3, including a guided hunt for the dall.

 

[dvolmer]

For the Big5 I only have sheep points (23 of them). Drew moose many years ago. Mtn Goat does not have points. Still worth the try for me to stay in the game for another sheep tag.

With 23 points, I agree.

 

[mulecreek]

and don't have $10K combined in all 3, including a guided hunt for the dall.

Oh how times have changed.

 

[BuzzH]

Oh how times have changed.

What?

You cant find a guided hunt in the Chugach with an OTC tag for less than 5K anymore?

I don't get a lot right, but I think I did OK with that decision when the gettin' was good.

 

[mulecreek]

What?

You cant find a guided hunt in the Chugach with an OTC tag for less than 5K anymore?

I don't get a lot right, but I think I did OK with that decision when the gettin' was good.

Trying to remember so I may be a bit off but I seem to remember when I first started looking for an AK Dall hunt in 2008 I could still find hunts for around $10K. I recall Max Schwab was one of the lower priced hunts. In ended up going with a different outfitter in 2012 for right around $14K. Just looked at his website the other day and that hunt now runs $28K. Its an OTC tag in the Alaska Range. Might not be anymore. Crazy thing was back in 2012 he ran 10-12 total sheep hunters with over 90% success rate. For the 2022 season he had 4 hunters with only 2 taking a ram.

 

[sb2017]

I should have posted this thread a couple days BEFORE the point deadline

 

[Zeke]

Uh, You youngsters are in trouble!

My first Dall sheep/caribou hunt was $2800 and my second one was free because I accidentally booked a few hunts for him.
Decades later, I killed a Stone sheep and moose for $13K.
This cannot be imagined nowadays but it is the way it happened for me.

Buzz is correct, buy or apply. that's the ONLY way to hunt sheep.

Zeke

 

[SS!]

I have an opportunity for a free desert sheep hunt in Mexico. The problem is it would cost me a divorce.



I’m still running the numbers.

 

[SS!]

Two outfitters I know up here are charging over 30k for their sheep hunts and are booked solid for 3 years and the phone keeps ringing…

 

[LIK2HNT]

Two outfitters I know up here are charging over 30k for their sheep hunts and are booked solid for 3 years and the phone keeps ringing…

Just goes to show some people have money to burn.

 

[BuzzH]

Just goes to show some people have money to burn.

Skim the market on a good day, easy come, easy go.

 

[Robiland]

I am only in for the main 3, deer, elk and antelope. I have 10 lope, 7 elk and 6 deer. I have drawn 2 lopes, 1 elk and 1 deer tag. But after these next round of changes, I am out of the game. I am only 45. But withe new changes, as someone earlier said, I could light that money on fire and enjoy it more since my odds will be so bad.

 

[jims]

It definitely pays to live in a state that offers the species you are interested in hunting for the price of a tag. It's getting to the point of lotto type draw odds for even residents that live in a particular state to draw high demand tags.

Obviously nonres are faced with lotto type draw odds or paying thousands for a tag and in some cases forced to pay extreme outftter fees if they desire to hunt out of state. As I've posted numerous times, I feel fortunate to live and experience many nonres hunts over the years before pt creep and low nonres tag allotments became a reality. I truly feel for the young generation that live as nonres in other parts of the country (midwest, south, etc) that may not have big game species available and may never have the same opportunity that us older DIY nonres hunters had!

 

[Zeke]

I have an opportunity for a free desert sheep hunt in Mexico. The problem is it would cost me a divorce.



I’m still running the numbers.

Might be totally worth it Mr SS.

It's never quite come down to that on my sheep hunts but damn near a few times. .

Zeke

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

It's definately easier to find another wife, doubt you'll find another free desert sheep hunt

 

[SS!]

It's definately easier to find another wife, doubt you'll find another free desert sheep hunt

That’s what I’m thinking. Plenty of women out there.

 

[wyoflythrower]

I’m with Llama Packer in questioning why more people in this thread haven’t completed a simple math equation to understand what their real odds of ever getting a moose/sheep tag in Wyoming are now. I let my 13 points for sheep and moose expire on Monday after not buying a point for two consecutive years. After the recent changes to 90/10 and at my age of 43 the simple math told me I would be extremely lucky to hunt either by the time I was 90 and would take 177 years for sheep and 126 years for moose to guarantee a tag at current allocations if Wyoming stayed with the current preference point system. It’s a very ugly reality. Buying moose and sheep preference points for youth is about as bad as a financial decision as one could make.

Moving to a bonus point system only further devalues moose/sheep points and with that change there will no longer be a “guarantee” to ever get a tag. I don’t understand why anyone would continue throwing money at these points as a NR.

 

[Bwht4x4]

As a PP system I too decided to let my points go. If it went to a bonus point system (not squared) I may get back in and try my luck. For those with a lot of points though, going to a bonus point system would be crushing. Imagine being one or two under max points!

 

[wyoflythrower]

Agree 100% - it’s one thing to pay $20 or even $50 dollars for a bonus point each year - but if they go to squared bonus points like Nevada they simply aren’t worth the cost to justify the extremely terrible odds, let alone $150 per point that they are currently. Buzz and WGFD are smoking something really good if they think everyone will keep paying those high point fees each year for sheep and moose when more and more will start facing the reality they are throwing money away. I’ll still be spending the $300 dollars a year it will just be in other states and in raffles/super tag type drawings instead.

 

[WapitiBob]

sheep applicants have a short memory

 

[BuzzH]

As a PP system I too decided to let my points go. If it went to a bonus point system (not squared) I may get back in and try my luck. For those with a lot of points though, going to a bonus point system would be crushing. Imagine being one or two under max points!

The people at those point levels, they could have already drawn a tag and they'll have 4 years to draw before the change to squared bonus points.

 

[BuzzH]

Agree 100% - it’s one thing to pay $20 or even $50 dollars for a bonus point each year - but if they go to squared bonus points like Nevada they simply aren’t worth the cost to justify the extremely terrible odds, let alone $150 per point that they are currently. Buzz and WGFD are smoking something really good if they think everyone will keep paying those high point fees each year for sheep and moose when more and more will start facing the reality they are throwing money away. I’ll still be spending the $300 dollars a year it will just be in other states and in raffles/super tag type drawings instead.

You're wrong, the reason people continue to buy points is not always for better odds, but to make sure their odds don't get any worse by not buying them.

Its paid off for me to buy points, both preference and bonus.

 

[LIK2HNT]

You're wrong, the reason people continue to buy points is not always for better odds, but to make sure their odds don't get any worse by not buying them.

Its paid off for me to buy points, both preference and bonus.

Not only that, but when things change you want to keep as high on the totem pole as possible. If things change to a squares bonus point system I would much rather have 23 points to square vs 0 or 1.

 

[jims]

Everyone is a little different as far as budget, priorities, and expenses. I have eliminated buying points in some states and continue applying in others. The states I’ve dropped out of are the ones that are super expensive to apply with poor draw odds.

My guess is that Wyo will lose nonres $ if there are major increases in prices, especially with a drop in nonres opportunity. If tags are cut and it takes more years to draw I’m sure a lot of new nonres will apply elsewhere plus many nonres will drop out buying pref pts that support the WG&F budget.

Now that I think about it, my guess is that the total revenue generated from nonres that apply each year for pref pts support more WG&F budget than what Wyo res pay for tags? I think it is a bit of a gamble cutting nonres tags/opportunity when nonres support so much of the license/pref pt revenue.

 

[BuzzH]

Not only that, but when things change you want to keep as high on the totem pole as possible. If things change to a squares bonus point system I would much rather have 23 points to square vs 0 or 1.

Exactly...and I get a kick out of people saying they'll take their point money and invest $300 a year and "just book a hunt" in a few years.

Yeah, desert sheep $50k, Governors Rocky sheep tags, $100k, Stone sheep $60K...

I can apply for just about everything in 8-10 states for the next 25 years and never spend $50k.

Plus, I've drawn a bunch of tags with horrible odds, including a random moose tag in Wyoming this year. The way you beat the odds is to apply all over for a long time.

 

[elkassassin]

She'd Have To Be A Special Woman To Tolerate Your BS!

That’s what I’m thinking. Plenty of women out there.

 

[SS!]

She'd Have To Be A Special Woman To Tolerate Your BS!

Yours too! I mean after all you spend all your time on a hunting forum and your poor wife has to go to the store to get meat ?

 

[SS!]

Exactly...and I get a kick out of people saying they'll take their point money and invest $300 a year and "just book a hunt" in a few years.

Yeah, desert sheep $50k, Governors Rocky sheep tags, $100k, Stone sheep $60K...

I can apply for just about everything in 8-10 states for the next 25 years and never spend $50k.

Plus, I've drawn a bunch of tags with horrible odds, including a random moose tag in Wyoming this year. The way you beat the odds is to apply all over for a long time.

Exaclty! If they were really investing the price of pref points would be a non issue.

It is fun coming on here and reading about them bitching though. It’s a nice break from the hustle.

 

[LIK2HNT]

Exactly...and I get a kick out of people saying they'll take their point money and invest $300 a year and "just book a hunt" in a few years.

Yeah, desert sheep $50k, Governors Rocky sheep tags, $100k, Stone sheep $60K...

I can apply for just about everything in 8-10 states for the next 25 years and never spend $50k.

Plus, I've drawn a bunch of tags with horrible odds, including a random moose tag in Wyoming this year. The way you beat the odds is to apply all over for a long time.

People don’t realize how many good hunts require low points. If you were to save your money for 25 years for one hopefully great hunt, you would of missed out in at least 50 average hunts with a few good to great tags thrown in the mix.
I would rather do a few low point hunts a year than wait 20 to 25 years for one hunt.

 

[BuzzH]

People don’t realize how many good hunts require low points. If you were to save your money for 25 years for one hopefully great hunt, you would of missed out in at least 50 average hunts with a few good to great tags thrown in the mix.
I would rather do a few low point hunts a year than wait 20 to 25 years for one hunt.

Yep, and sometimes those average units are better hunts than the glory tags.

 

[nripepi]

Thanks everyone for the input and honest advice/opinions. Safe to say my situation is a lot less hopeful than I thought it was!

I can't help but have a gambler's mentality, and if the system ever does change in favor of nonresidents who have continued to build points, it would haunt me for a long time if I stopped now.

After the perspectives shared on this thread, I believe my course of action is to continue to donate $$ to Wyoming each year in hopes that we may see a favorable amendment to the system, but I won't hold my breath.

As for deer & elk, I think I'll start searching for where I'd have a reasonable chance at drawing in the next few years to cash out those points.

I would continue for moose, but drop out of sheep and use that money to apply for random sheep tags in Wyoming and other states.

 

[BradA]

That's going to happen, almost a for sure...squared bonus point system in 4 years after the change.

So the top point holders are going to have 4 years to burn their points before they go to squared bonus points.

That's going to keep people buying points and applying.

There really are only 2 choices to hunt sheep unless you live in CA or AK:

Shell out 40k+ or apply in every state and hope to draw.

I've shot a dall, bighorn, and desert and don't have $10K combined in all 3, including a guided hunt for the dall.

What are the choices if you live in California? I see what your saying as far as Alaska as you can hunt sheep every year in Alaska as a resident, but don’t see what your getting at if your a California resident.

 

[nripepi]

The people at those point levels, they could have already drawn a tag and they'll have 4 years to draw before the change to squared bonus points.

Not for me at 22 currently. I will sue for 40-50K if they change it from preference to bonus. With the cut to 10% I am now 10 years out instead of 5 and if they go to bonus I likely never draw in my lifetime after investing for a few decades. It is pure bait and switch in my mind. Yes, we have had this discussion a dozen times, but my response is the same as I am guessing yours is as well, so no reason to call me names or laugh at me or call me entitled...whatever. I may lose, but also might not as Wyoming is bringing in millions per year in "preference" points, not bonus points. If they offer a refund, then I guess I would lose the suit. No refund and I would have a fighting chance I think.

 

[SS!]

Not for me at 22 currently. I will sue for 40-50K if they change it from preference to bonus. With the cut to 10% I am now 10 years out instead of 5 and if they go to bonus I likely never draw in my lifetime after investing for a few decades. It is pure bait and switch in my mind. Yes, we have had this discussion a dozen times, but my response is the same as I am guessing yours is as well, so no reason to call me names or laugh at me or call me entitled...whatever. I may lose, but also might not as Wyoming is bringing in millions per year in "preference" points, not bonus points. If they offer a refund, then I guess I would lose the suit. No refund and I would have a fighting chance I think.

You’re not going to sue.

 

[nripepi]

You’re not going to sue.

Why not? I was sold preference points for decades. Not sure how they can just change them to bonus. They could possibly go to a 50/50 system like Utah where 50 goes to preference and 50 to bonus and then I wouldn't have a case. All bonus and pretty sure I would have a case.

 

[nripepi]

What are the choices if you live in California? I see what your saying as far as Alaska as you can hunt sheep every year in Alaska as a resident, but don’t see what your getting at if your a California resident.

Canada....

 

[West River]

By state statute Wyoming never had to sell a single license to a nonresident they only reserved a specific percent of the available licenses to the residents. The commission always chose to sell the maximum they were allowed to nonresidents when they didn't have too sell a single one. You were buying preference points for something that was never guaranteed to even exist. Of course that has all changed now with the new legislation in that it now guarantees 10 % will go to nonresidents.

 

[mulecreek]

It is pure bait and switch in my mind.

Bait and switch would need to mean that WGF intended all along to lead you along with PP's knowing, but hiding from you, that they intended to switch to BP's after you had acquired 22 PP's. I think you would be hard pressed to find intentional deception on the part of WGF with the switch from PP's to BP's. I would revise the grounds of your lawsuit.

 

[nripepi]

Bait and switch would need to mean that WGF intended all along to lead you along with PP's knowing, but hiding from you, that they intended to switch to BP's after you had acquired 22 PP's. I think you would be hard pressed to find intentional deception on the part of WGF with the switch from PP's to BP's. I would revise the grounds of your lawsuit.

Does it have to be all along though? What if just the last 5-10 years?

 

[sticksender]

While the table above is accurate, with the 90/10 change to the NR allocation there are even fewer NR sheep tags next year, and very likely no random tags, but best case would be 1, not the 5 or 6 from previous years. NR sheep tags dropped from 25% of the quota to 10%, really changing the math.



Bill

Actually the only scenario in which there'd be a NR random sheep license under the current rules, would be if one of the sheep unit's license quota was raised to 40 or higher. That is extremely unlikely to happen, and therefore there would be zero random sheep licenses next year for NR. That will mean any NR applying who is not in the top two or three point tiers, will have zero chance to draw.

 

[mulecreek]

Does it have to be all along though? What if just the last 5-10 years?

I don't think you could make a reasonable argument either way. B&S would need to mean they knowingly advertised a product that they had no intention of honoring. First off, the G&F, commission, Legislature, TF, etc. has been very open about looking into potential changes. All along they have told potential purchasers of PP's that changes were being looked at and likely. If a buyer continued to buy PP's you did so with eye's wide shut to the likely potential for a change. That's on you not them. Second, from day one they have been selling PP's, not a tag. That is what you bought and what you have. Turns out down the line they may be less "valuable" to you than they were when you first bought them but that is not B&S. That is how just about everything you buy works.

 

[nripepi]

I don't think you could make a reasonable argument either way. B&S would need to mean they knowingly advertised a product that they had no intention of honoring. First off, the G&F, commission, Legislature, TF, etc. has been very open about looking into potential changes. All along they have told potential purchasers of PP's that changes were being looked at and likely. If a buyer continued to buy PP's you did so with eye's wide shut to the likely potential for a change. That's on you not them. Second, from day one they have been selling PP's, not a tag. That is what you bought and what you have. Turns out down the line they may be less "valuable" to you than they were when you first bought them but that is not B&S. That is how just about everything you buy works.

So my argument would be just a "switch" then, no baiting? I continued to buy points as I was totally invested for decades and was on the cusp of drawing and it is only the last few years that G&F has discussed changing the system. I had 20 points before they started to survey people.

When you are spending $500 per year on "preference" points and then it is no longer a preference point according to G&F's definition of what you bought:

"In the draw, 75 percent of available licenses in each hunt area and license type will be allocated to the preference point drawing."

I don't know, not a lawyer, but it sure seems like I would have a good case to either get my preference point money back in a refund or if a class-action then G&F could decide to keep them as Preference Points.

 

[mulecreek]

So my argument would be just a "switch" then, no baiting? I continued to buy points as I was totally invested for decades and was on the cusp of drawing and it is only the last few years that G&F has discussed changing the system. I had 20 points before they started to survey people.

When you are spending $500 per year on "preference" points and then it is no longer a preference point according to G&F's definition of what you bought:

"In the draw, 75 percent of available licenses in each hunt area and license type will be allocated to the preference point drawing."

I don't know, not a lawyer, but it sure seems like I would have a good case to either get my preference point money back in a refund or if a class-action then G&F could decide to keep them as Preference Points.

Agree to disagree. I think you have a fine reason to be upset, just not a leg to stand on in court.

I have 23 sheep PP's and would rather they leave the PP system in place, as is. I can draw a bunch of areas, just don't want to at this time. I would never dream of joining a Class action for something as trivial and obvious as a change to a hunting license distribution system.

 

[jm77]

So my argument would be just a "switch" then, no baiting? I continued to buy points as I was totally invested for decades and was on the cusp of drawing and it is only the last few years that G&F has discussed changing the system. I had 20 points before they started to survey people.

When you are spending $500 per year on "preference" points and then it is no longer a preference point according to G&F's definition of what you bought:

"In the draw, 75 percent of available licenses in each hunt area and license type will be allocated to the preference point drawing."

I don't know, not a lawyer, but it sure seems like I would have a good case to either get my preference point money back in a refund or if a class-action then G&F could decide to keep them as Preference Points.

Again, you would have to sue the Wyoming Legislature. The lawmakers will be debating to change the system on a recommendation from the TF. The G&F has nothing to do with it. I guess you could add, as co-defendants, the TF. It was their idea to pursue the change.

Oh, and good luck with that.

 

[SS!]

Why not? I was sold preference points for decades. Not sure how they can just change them to bonus. They could possibly go to a 50/50 system like Utah where 50 goes to preference and 50 to bonus and then I wouldn't have a case. All bonus and pretty sure I would have a case.

All talk no walk