Another reason hunting is for the rich

[moseleymiddleton]

this is horse dung these guys basicly new they were having their clients poach, and all they get is a slap on the wrist.All these guys havr in fines is the amount that one guy paid for the 10 years of poaching
MoseleyMiddleton



http://trib.com/news/state-and-regi...cle_56ab4bba-8404-5a24-b665-f67ea508507c.html

 

[mmwb]

Either the evidence was shaky or the prosecutor just rolled over.

 

[jodog]

As long as it was going on they should all go to prison for a few years plus loose their hunting lic. and fines. Looks like poaching was a long time family business for them and the same hunters from Oregon kept comeing back year after year.

 

[Cornhusker]

It sounds to me with the evidence of continued criminal behavior almost any prosecutor could have went to court and got a stiffer penalty than they received.

 

[mmwb]

It would seem that way, but the courts are particular and the evidence has to be absolutely clear, the gathering of the evidence has to be without flaw, and the presentation of the prosecution vs the defense has to be top notch. When dealing with concepts of propensity of evidence and reasonable doubt, things become less clear. There is a reason why with the same evidence different skill levels of attorneys get different results. With the possible fines, fees and other assessments possible, the defendants probably hired a top notch attorney. Prosecutors also have bosses to answer to and the commissioners of that county may have made it clear that they didn't want a drawn out, expensive trial to fund.

I'm not saying it is all right, but a lot goes on behind the scenes that we don't know about and while it is easy to judge the participation and competence of those involved,we are often misinformed. The media seldom gives us all the information.

I'd love to see vermin like these defendants--assuming guilt--get hammered with incarceration, permanent loss of privileges and enough financial consequence to cost them the ranch they used to commit their crimes. I don't see it ever happening.

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-12 AT 02:29PM (MST)[p]mmwb---Having been in law enforcement for over 30 years before retiring in 2002, this is the way the courts work more often than not. There was no pressure put on by those you mentioned because this was all done by the Feds in Federal District Court a long way from where the violations took place in Washakie County. It was done under the Lacey Act and had nothing to do with any local Commissioners or the Wyoming G&F prosecuting them. I have hunted out in that area for at least 15 years and know people that know them and of them. One of the rancher couples I know even said they caught one of the boys rustling some of their cattle off BLM land where they had a grazing permit, but it never made it to court! All word that I get from friends out there is that the Carter family was violating all kinds of laws for years, everyone knew it, and they finally got caught. The courts like to lump a ton of charges on people exactly for the purpose of plea bargaining them down so that a trial isn't necessary. It's too bad, but that's the way it works a good share of the time. The guy from Oregon knew damn well he was violating the law since Wyoming doesn't even have transferrable landowner tags and he should get the book thrown at him like the rest of them should because he was hunting without a license. His "I'm sorry!" is a bunch of BS! These kind of egregious violations should be dealt with by stiff jail/prison sentences, but in our society it doesn't seem like white collar crime is treated like the thievery that it is and this is a good example. I hope the G&F can keep all involved from ever having a hunting license again, including in the 30+ violator compact states, but they would probably have to put them up on state charges to do it, unless the Feds put that in there as part of their plea bargain under those Lacey Act violations. None of the involved Carters should ever be allowed to have an outfitting or guide license for the rest of their lives, as well. It will be interesting to see if Judge Freudenhal goes with the recommendation handed her as far as what their sentence turns out to be. Her husband is the ex Governor of Wyoming and I believe he and the family are pretty well thought of by the hunting community out there. It will be interesting to see the final sentence, but it will probably not be enough for what they were doing for such a long time.

 

[DougW]

very well said, topgun

doug

 

[mmwb]

Great response Topgun! I'd wondered if the charges weren't all federal. I posited the local level as an example. I agree with your take on what these people deserve. I don't know her well, but through some exposure over the years I've been impressed the the judge in this case a woman of integrity. I doubt she will let politics or popular opinion sway her.

 

[nontypical]

I agree,TG.However,I don't really think the fact that the judge is the wife of the former governor will have a bearing on this case,if that's what you were implying.At least,it shouldn't play into it as far as legal ethics(is there such a thing?)are concerned.What I see here is a blatant abuse of the present landowner tag system we have in Wy.I'm not exactly sure of all the particulars as far as animal/use days,but I do know that if you have 160 acres,you could be entitled to a LO tag.So when this guy divided up his property in those segments,every 160 acre parcel received LO tags.Leaving the ranch intact and in his name only,would have only entitled him to one LO tag for each species that had usage on the property.So,if every rancher in Wy did this,you could see the potential for abuse.And,it's already happening.Those LO tags come out of the tag pool.I have also heard it rumored through a reliable source that a transferable LO tag bill could be introduced next legislative session(Feb).This would enable a landowner to be able to transfer(sell)their LO tags to anyone they desire.There is huge potential for ranchers to divide their place up amongst relatives like this Carter puke did,in order to receive more tags to transfer.It's time that Wyoming revisits this law and makes the necessary changes to the present system before this situation gets worse.

 

[TOPGUN]

nontypical---Reality is that the Judge and her husband have close ties to the Wyoming hunting community. Therefore, I would suspect that her rulings or sentencing on matters like this would be a lot different and probably more harsh than say if Liberal Judge Donald Malloy heard the case. That's all I meant by my comment. The fact that the present system allowed them to break that ranch up into 160s to get all those extra tags is definitely a travesty and I'm not sure how that can be addressed, but it should be without delay. You are correct in that if this began to multiply throughout the state it would greatly deplete the tag pool for the average Joe and benefit the ranchers and/or outfitters who leased that property like is happening in several other states. I believe a well known organization we talk about on these forums every day has already tried to do what you meantioned as far as making the tags transferrable and having outfitters set asides and it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were further attempts. It was rather ironic in that when I saw the first court case of the guy the Feds nailed I matched the pictures in the paper up with ones right on the Carter hunting website and immediately called the Cheyenne G&F Office. When I alerted the Lieutenant in charge of the TIP program that the Carters were involved, he thanked me for the tip and told me they already knew and all he could say was to watch the media as things were just getting started! I would imagine the Wyoming G&F did most of the investigation in the case, but I know they had to turn the initial prosecution over to the Feds under the Lacey Act because state statute times were running out to prosecute the first guy. That's why the G&F is to receive that minimum restitution amount, and hopefully more, that the article mentioned. I would hope all this publicity would wreck any future outfitter business dealings the family would have and that they have to till the soil by hand to survive!

 

[nontypical]

As I understand it,the only way to get the LO tag system changed would be to go through the legislature.Which means good luck.I don't look for that to happen until this loophole really becomes abused and sportsmen begin to realize the possible enormity of it all.And anytime government becomes involved,things really get bogged down due to bureaucracy.We all need to be diligent about this and stay informed.This could become a hot issue in the future.

 

[SMOKESTICK]

I really do not like the LO tag system in Wyoming either. If it could be changed, how would you propose the program be changed?

 

[galvanized]

Ive stayed in Ten Sleep and hunted there once before and really loved it. As a NR I dont want what others do to reflect poorly on NR because we arent all bad like the fellas in this story. I hope they get hammered, all of them.

 

[Utah400Elk]

I happen to know a little about the federal system because of my work. In the federal system a person's criminal history has a lot to do with the amount of time they will serve. I don't know these poeple's history but I would bet (since they bought rifle hunting permits) that they weren't felons. Therefore they would more than likely get a pobation recommendation in the federal guidelines. Freudenthal has not been handing out hard sentences. I would guess she will go on the light side of the recommendation. Federal courts are not set up to deal with poaching cases.

There is a silver lining:

16 U.S.C. ? 3374. Forfeiture. (Lacey Act)
"All vessels, vehicles, aircraft, and other
equipment used to aid in the importing, exporting,
transporting, selling, receiving, acquiring, or
purchasing of fish or wildlife or plants in a criminal
violation of this chapter for which a felony
conviction is obtained shall be subject to forfeiture
to the United States."

I bet they will loose it all, including there homes where the items were stored.

The other thing is that they are now felons and WILL do time in a federal prison if they have a firearm, ammo etc. That will stay with them forever.

Poaching laws are never hard enough IMO.

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-12 AT 01:55PM (MST)[p]I doubt they had any records and I believe you're probably right on the probation statement, but I doubt any of them will lose homes over this. As you mentioned, the fact that they will all have felony records should end their hunting for life when they can't legally possess a firearm. That is much better than a bunch of misdemeanor violations at the state level where the Judge gives them two or three years without being able to procure a hunting license. It will be interesting to see whether that will also put an end to their outfitting/guide business because I don't know all the criteria involved to maintain said licenses in Wyoming. Lastly, I couldn't agree more with you more on your poaching statement, especially in egregious situations which I feel this particular one meets.

As far as changing the landowner tag system, I don't think 160 acres is nearly enough land to qualify for landowner tags. It would seem like with the size of ranches out west that the minimum should be more like 640 acres. Also, if land is divided up like they did, maybe there could be some kind of a time period before the subdivided land would qualify for tags. I believe under the present system the local Game Warden decides if the land qualifies for the tags they ask for as far as animal use on that property. The problem with that is that the G&F is beholding to a lot of these ranchers because they can't go on private property to do their game studies and counts, etc. without permission. If they started disallowing tags that probably shouldn't be issued, then the G&F probably would be penalized by not being allowed on the property to do their work. That's one reason why people get trespassing tickets even if they were on public land when a rancher calls and complains about hunters. I know for a fact that tickets are issued to NRs just on the word of the rancher a lot of times because the G&F Warden knows the NR will just pay the ticket due to the high costs of fighting it. That way he stays in good with the ranchers in his assigned area and that was actually told to me a few years ago by the Warden I know out in TenSleep.

 

[nontypical]

Bob-In my opinion,the LO tag holder should have to hunt on the private land,only.Demand for those tags would drop precipitously!!But we all know that will never happen.But,that would be my solution.

 

[TOPGUN]

I'm not really up to speed on the landowner system, but I didn't realize it was good for anything other than on the landowner's private property. I'm heading for Texas for ten days and will catch up when I get back a week from Tuesday. Have a good one guys!