Antelope Island sheep hunt

Thanks Yelum, I work early on sun so I miss Adams show. I don't want to argue, you know my stand, I know yours, but again $475k for wildlife habitat? That is $475k to improve the habitat on the island to improve the deer and sheep for who?? Guys that can fork out a mortgage to hunt. I don't see how that hunt does anything other than improve the hunting for 4 people. Sorry, but that is a very poor use of resources. Loved how the guide had to carry old mister "sheep hunter" 's gun for him because that climb was so tough. AI has to be the least vertical sheep hunt in the country.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Its actually pretty comparable to the Newfoundlands. I found it interesting that they claimed 540+ deer. Thats a joke.

Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.
 
>Thanks Yelum, I work early on
>sun so I miss Adams
>show. I don't want
>to argue, you know my
>stand, I know yours, but
>again $475k for wildlife habitat?
> That is $475k to
>improve the habitat on the
>island to improve the deer
>and sheep for who??
>Guys that can fork out
>a mortgage to hunt.
>I don't see how that
>hunt does anything other than
>improve the hunting for 4
>people. Sorry, but that
>is a very poor use
>of resources. Loved how
>the guide had to carry
>old mister "sheep hunter" 's
>gun for him because that
>climb was so tough.
>AI has to be the
>least vertical sheep hunt in
>the country.
>
>
IMHO 2 guys get to hunt on AI for the cost of the tag....

but more importantly the money is going to help better range conditions grow more sheep that can be moved to supplement existing herds and start others, that will create TAGS in the future
 
+1 treed

I will add that the generation of that amount of resource funding in exchange for less than a hand full of animals (that will die soon from old age), is smart economics.
 
I had a few hours to kill before my flight back to texas this morning and drove out there. Socked in fog everywhere with 30 yards of visibility, guess I'll have to try again sometime.

Visitor center claims they have 150 antelope and 100 sheep on the island, so maybe his deer numbers are kinda high too.
 
Good for the hunter. I wish I had the funds to buy the tag and I definitely wont hold it against those that do. Good for them.
 
Hossblur

FOR Your info.....the 475K HELPS ALL OF US THAT HOPE TO HUNT CALIFORNIA BIG HORNS IN UTAH. THEY USE THE ISLAND AS A NURSERY.....THEN TRANSPLANT 100 PLUS SHEEP EVERY COUPLE YEARS WHICH WILL HELP US THAT LIKE HUNTING SHEEP!!!!
 
Not that it matters, but the hunter in the video is a friend of mine as well as a subcontractor on some of my projects. He is an avid hunter, working on his 2nd Grand Slam.

In relation to his "lack of wind", keep in mind that here in Iowa we live at about 1100 feet of elevation, versus Antelope Island elevation of 4500-6500. That is a hell of a difference if you have never done it in relation to "wind". I train year around for the mountains, and the first day still kicks my ass!

As far as the "silver spoon" thinking in relation to these type of tags, I use to look down on them until Mike Kemery bought one. His father/him bought a little well drilling company years ago. When his father retired, Mike turned it up about 10 notches and expanded into construction/high line drilling for foundations. He has taken his company all over North and South America drilling foundation shafts for bridges, walls, buildings, high line electric towers.

He is a workaholic who just a 2 years ago abandoned a moose hunt in Alaska (right before getting on the bush plane to go in for the hunt) because of a work "emergency".

He sold his company to Quanta Services about 5 years ago, but still runs it to this day. The sale of his company is what funds his hunting endeavors.

Bottom line is his hard work and ingenuity is how he got to where he is. Both attributes are enviable in my opinion.
 
Kudos to Mr. Kemery. I have great admiration for guys who are willing to work hard in order to "live the dream".
I, for one, have absolutely no "wallet envy" for guys like him and I appreciate his contribution to our sheep herds.
I have been fortunate to help 4 Utah hunters take sheep off the Stansbury unit which is a transplanted herd that came exclusively from the island. They are direct benefactors of his hard work. There have also been no less than an two dozen additional Utah hunters who have killed AI transplants off the Newfys. His money insures that we now have two thriving herds of sheep in Utah that will provide hundreds of us the opportunity to hunt sheep in the future.
So to say his financial contribution doesn't help anyone but the rich, is both short sighted, and uninformed.
Congratulations Mr. Mike and thanks for sharing your dream with us!
 
+1 LBH...lots of opprotunity will comw of the money brought in from those tags being sold. LOTS of places to put those sheep that are within chopper range. all PUBLIC land.

anybody hear of them planning on moving a few onto the oak creeks or the deep creeks to bolster the small herd out there?


How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
treed,
I have not heard of any current plans, but that certainly doesn't mean there are none. The biggest obstacle of more transplants is finding ranges that are not impacted by domestic sheep. We have several additional ranges that could hold sheep but the proximity of domestic herds severely limits the potential for successful translocation efforts. The Provo/Timp herd thrived for 4-5 years. But then it had a huge die off most likely due, at least in part, to contact with somebodies pet wooly. Sheep are wonderful...fragile animals, but hopefully we can continue to find areas to expand them in.
Good luck on your Rocky quest!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-13 AT 04:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-13 AT 04:17?PM (MST)

Don't let Nick get under your skin he has a Beef with Auction Tags & SFW and it does not matter what you say you wont change his mind!
Thank goodness that we live in a Country that grants us the right and freedom to have our own opinion and to be able to express it!!

The Island actually has some pretty rough country compared to other units I have hunted both in the state and out.Six inches of new snow on loose rocks did not make it any easier.

If it wasnt for the Candy Bars falling out of Greg's pocket I doudt I would have made it to the top of the hill! I can walk along ways if I know there is chocolate on the other end!

Mike did not use his own gun I talked him into using a gun built by Landon Gines "Bullseye Precision" it was not built as a carry rifle it weighs nearly 18 lbs.
If I was Mike I would made me pack it too!

To often opinions get formed with out realling knowing the facts or the people involved.

In Mike's case he is a class act. If any of you have ever attended UTFNAWS and won or applied for one of the sheep hunt they give away you might want to give Mike a Big Thanks. He has donated Thousands of dollars to help underwrite these hunts so guys & gals have the chance to experience hunting sheep.
This is cold hard cash that he gets nothing for.

One cant help but admire a self made man that is more than willing to help others!


There is plans to put California Bighorns on the Oak Creeks this fall or next. It has not been decided if these sheep will come from Antelope Island or the Newfoundlands.
They have had a problem with some sheep dieing on the island this year and they are waiting to see if it is a wide spread problem before moving any sheep.

It has already been pointed out that the money generated from the sale of these two permits impacts far more people than just the two lucky draw hunter's.
It goes a long ways to help ensure that the general public will be able enjoy (view) the wildlife on the Island for many generations to come.

I learned one very important thing on this hunt "Never under estimate a three legged Ram"

Troy Justensen
 
>Hossblur
>
>FOR Your info.....the 475K HELPS ALL
>OF US THAT HOPE TO
>HUNT CALIFORNIA BIG HORNS IN
>UTAH. THEY USE THE ISLAND
>AS A NURSERY.....THEN TRANSPLANT 100
>PLUS SHEEP EVERY COUPLE YEARS
>WHICH WILL HELP US THAT
>LIKE HUNTING SHEEP!!!!


Watch the segment again. The $475k is deer and sheep combined. The money isn't going just for sheep, it is to help with range conditions for the deer too. They aren't transplanting those deer anywhere. The island has a carrying capacity for sheep, its not going to support a huge herd no matter how many guzzlers you build. I am all for sheep hunting, but improving range on an island where only 2 people will hunt it is not just bad economics, its just plain stupid. If you live on an island with just one other person, Questar isn't spending money bringing you gas, rocky mtn. isn't bringing you power, AT&T isn't bringing you a phone line because the money spent for 2 people is a huge loss, and this is true of the island. FYI, there were sheep out there, being transplanted before the "hunt", there were deer too. They didn't magically appear after Denny Austad or SFW, and they would be there without it too. Ever wonder why we are using it as a "nursery", but the place is crawling with coyotes, which I believe love the taste of sheep and deer. I guess no one has offered 6 figures to hunt yotes out there huh? Those yotes will just die of old age i guess.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-13
>AT 04:28?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-13
>AT 04:17?PM (MST)
>
>Don't let Nick get under your
>skin he has a Beef
>with Auction Tags & SFW
>and it does not matter
>what you say you wont
>change his mind!
>Thank goodness that we live in
>a Country that grants us
>the right and freedom to
>have our own opinion and
>to be able to express
>it!!
>
>The Island actually has some pretty
>rough country compared to other
>units I have hunted both
>in the state and out.Six
>inches of new snow on
>loose rocks did not make
>it any easier.
>
>If it wasnt for the Candy
>Bars falling out of Greg's
>pocket I doudt I would
>have made it to the
>top of the hill! I
>can walk along ways if
>I know there is chocolate
>on the other end!
>
>Mike did not use his own
>gun I talked him into
>using a gun built by
>Landon Gines "Bullseye Precision" it
>was not built as a
>carry rifle it weighs nearly
>18 lbs.
>If I was Mike I would
>made me pack it too!
>
>
>To often opinions get formed with
>out realling knowing the facts
>or the people involved.
>
>In Mike's case he is a
>class act. If any of
>you have ever attended UTFNAWS
>and won or applied for
>one of the sheep hunt
>they give away you might
>want to give Mike a
>Big Thanks. He has donated
>Thousands of dollars to help
>underwrite these hunts so guys
>& gals have the chance
>to experience hunting sheep.
>This is cold hard cash that
>he gets nothing for.
>
>One cant help but admire a
>self made man that is
>more than willing to help
>others!
>
>
>There is plans to put California
>Bighorns on the Oak Creeks
>this fall or next. It
>has not been decided if
>these sheep will come from
>Antelope Island or the Newfoundlands.
>
>They have had a problem with
>some sheep dieing on the
>island this year and they
>are waiting to see if
>it is a wide spread
>problem before moving any sheep.
>
>
>It has already been pointed out
>that the money generated from
>the sale of these two
>permits impacts far more people
>than just the two lucky
>draw hunter's.
>It goes a long ways to
>help ensure that the general
>public will be able enjoy
>(view) the wildlife on the
>Island for many generations to
>come.
>
>I learned one very important thing
>on this hunt "Never under
>estimate a three legged Ram"
>
>
>Troy Justensen

Troy is right, I do have a problem with SFW creating a hunt on this island. But so does much if not most of the hunting public. SFW spent $0 on this island. It is not some SFW success story, in fact they didn't care about it at all until there was money for them to make. And yes I have a problem with auction tags, but so does anyone who hunts the Nebo and Manti who watched the state auction off these areas elk herds. Wasatch guys, YOUR NEXT! Yeah Troy I have a problem with a state in which there are two sets of laws, one for me(waiting periods, draws, etc,) and one for your crowd(no waiting, buy what you want, no once in a life times). Troy I have a problem with an "industry" that has decided it would be better for them to get rid of me. Does SFW do some good, YOU BET, the guys and gals out in the trenches do good every day. BUT TROY, we will see soon how "caring about wildlife" SFW is when we hack your auction tags in a few years. Have a good expo, be sure and tell us about all the money you bring, what with your tax breaks, tags that are tax write offs for the buyers, free tags from the tax payer.

AND YES, don't tell me about how proud you are, and what a man you are and how hard you work, then have your servant carry your gun. Sorry, but even rich guys should have some pride. My 7 year old won't let me carry his gun!



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Troy you have to admit your bias, you get paid on both sides of the plate. SFW and Guiding the hunt. I was hoping you guys would kill gimpy.
 
Troy, I made $45,324 last year. What did you make to guide this hunt? What did you make from SFW, both salary and client recommends? Why? You have created a buisness in which deep pocket dudes pay you do take them killing. Your buisness, unless you want to prove otherwise did ZERO to help establish any animal. You were paid to provide a service, you did it, but lets not pretend that the guy who paid you to carry his gun, is some great wildlife savior. He has expendable income, and a need to prove he is the greatest, so he hires you. What you do is legal, and legitimate. Conservation tags, on an island on which 2 guys hunt, 2 others hire a gun caddy, that benfit only the island is EXACTLY what is wrong with the hunt. You and doyle benefited GREATLY from this hunt, how did I? I live here, I frequent the island, what did I, or the thousands of visitors gain from your clients? I watched deer out there long before Karl Malone, THE DON, or Denny decided it necessary to hunt it, and I don't see some GREAT improvement in the herd. Same with the sheep. I am pro people shopping at Smiths(i work in there warehouse) because it benefits me, I don't try and make Smiths shoppers great people who benefit all of society. So please spare us the testimonials about a guy whose dad bought him a buisness and was smart enough to see profit in it being anything other than a trigger. Your client proved it. He "hunted" sheep with a gun that wasn't his, and you carried it around for him, pretty much the definition of a trigger puller.

That three legged sheep was pretty damn tough though!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
i would much rather see a guy pay big money to hunt on the island and see that money go to HELP the wildlife than see some CWMU dude make the money and DO NOTHING TO HELP THE WILDLIFE and that money goes into there pocket. the island hunt is one good for both the wildlife and the few lucky hunters that get to hunt it.



How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
I hate this point. How about NO, there is a few, very few places in the west where we have "trophy" class animals and WE LET THEM LIVE. Every argument made to support this abomination, you could make for hunting Yellowstone. Or should we allow the highest bidder to go in there?

I think we should open the fish hatchery to the highest bidder, then we can look at the pics and the "fisherman" can tell us how this is just as hard as regular fishing.

There comes a point when the obvious is just that, obvious. There is no biological reason to hunt this island, which is why it wasn't hunted. THE ONLY REASON it is hunted is because of MONEY, and if money and points are the only reason we hunt, then maybe we should stop and let the aristocracy have their way, the European Model they all so desire.

A mature ram, dying of old age on AI, is NOT A WASTE, nor is a mature buck dying LOST REVENUE. We will survive as hunters if we don't kill every "trophy" on the planet!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Reading all this garbage from Utahans or whatever your called makes me sick. Utah started this trend of making hunting a rich man's sport. Jessus I swear you guys could justify some serial killer if there was revenue to be made. It's really horrible what some in Utah have done to hunting. And now its spreading out of control in other states. Hope you jackazz's sleep well at night.
 
Utah started all this??? look at your state for the landowner tag program, the ranching for wildlife program. those are putting money in private pockets, the AI deal puts the money back into the habitat. 2 herds were started off the tranplants from the island and more will come in the near future. money well spent
 
>Reading all this garbage from Utahans
>or whatever your called makes
>me sick. Utah started this
>trend of making hunting a
>rich man's sport. Jessus I
>swear you guys could justify
>some serial killer if there
>was revenue to be made.
>It's really horrible what some
>in Utah have done to
>hunting. And now its spreading
>out of control in other
>states. Hope you jackazz's sleep
>well at night.

We don't. Most of us are amazed how fast the cancer has spread. The guys who pop in with the "if I had the money" are just useful idiots. They are groupies for the doyles and Todds of the world and suck up the coolaid about how valuable one man is for wildlife. Problem with this hunt is transplants were happening BEFORE the hunt. There were "trophy" deer BEFORE the hunt. The "its good for the habitat" argument might might some sense elsewhere, but on a 17 square mile island that has non of the loss of habitat other places do, it IS just a hunt for the aristocracy. If the record books didn't recognize these animals there would BE ZERO big money guys out there. This guy "going for his second slam" knows exactly what a cake hunt this is, I would assume some of his other slam included actual wild animals in extreme environments. If the slam is simply about putting sheep down, and not the toughness of the animal and the environment it lives in, then the slam is useless. Watch the show again, think there are a lot of places to hunt sheep you drive your diesel truck to, then climb a little hill(the only hill out there)? You saw where he killed the sheep, open sage brush, not cliffs, not mtn. tops, not extreme altitude, just a sage brush hill.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-13 AT 05:34PM (MST)[p]+1

I should have refrained from generalizing all. I just get frustrated living on a disabled vet's income and each year myself and families like mine get pushed further and further to the side. I don't condone landowner tags as that is just pure political motive to keep the money flowing in. Hosblur is right on though that you DO NOT have to pimp out every animal with a decent rack.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-13 AT 12:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-13 AT 12:14?PM (MST)

Russ you are 100% correct I am bias, but not for the reason you think I am.

I grew up hunting the Island with my father and because of that I have always had a passion for the place.

One of the missions of the park is to preserve the natural heritage of the Island. If one looks into its history it is very clear hunting has been apart of the Island from day one and in my opinion should have never been taken away.

Nick it is obvious you dont know much about sheep or sheep hunting!
People who are not familar with it often make the mistake you have.
They believe that sheep inhabit the meanest,nastyest,highest, roughest country they can find.That is not always the case.In fact here in Utah it is far from the norm.

The toughest thing about hunting Sheep is finding them, Why? because there is not alot of them.
If you are in a unit that has high populations of sheep, hunting is relatively easy.

If you have never done it I would encourage you to take your family to Green River Utah next November and drive up Desolation Canyon and tell me how many Bighorns you see next to the road, remember the hunt is open at this time.
The same could be done on the North & South San Rafael, Nine Mile,Zion, Pine Valley and the list goes on.

In one of your post's you state that they are not transplanting the deer. This is something that is being talked about. Winter Range is a problem on the Island. According to some of the biologist the deer are beyond current carrying capacity and something has to be done or a crash is in the near future.

Money from these permit sales will help develope water to increase the animals use of the range and also make them more visable to Island vistors. How many sheep have you seen on the east side from your truck?
Money will also be spent on improving and encreasing winter range for all species.

You continue to blame Don for the Island hunt as I have stated before it was not Don's idea. I went to SFW with the proposal and at the time I was not an employee of SFW, this all started back in the mid 90's.
During this time access to the Island for the general public was a joke, it was alomost non exsistant and though shed hunting and hunting was not permitted for the general public it was a common pratice engaged in by some park employee's.

Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion's. I have no problem with you having your's. I disagree with it and probably always will.

Where I have a problem is the fact you feel it necessary to belittle or discredit another mans (Hunter's) accomplishments because you feel it was to easy, guide carried a gun, bought the tag, was out of wind yada yada yada.

I would be more than glad to take you on the same hike Mike made when he killed his ram to see if you work up a sweat or your heart rate increases.

You might want to break out Richard Simmons our something simular to it. If you lost your copy I can loan ya mine.


X-treme
Troy Justensen
 
Troy I blame Karl Malone, he was the one that publically started talking about how much he would pay to hunt the deer out there. Since you want the credit, fine, you can have it. It is a horrible idea. You grew up hunting there? Did you pay $55,000 to do so? Why not? For some reason you think it is a good idea now, why wasn't it then? Was the biologist you talked to talking about a crash the same one who thinks there are 400 deer out there? If thats his number, there might be carrying capacity problems, but since he is over by 100-150 we are probably safe. Besides if that is the reason for hunting deer out there, why didn't you push for more draw tags? When you hunting out there all the time with your dad, did you guys buy your tag at the auction? I bet your azz you carried your own gun. And yes, if your a man, you carry your own gun, it ain't golf. I am either in a maroon s-10 blazer or a white crew cab chev, so whenever you see me out there lets go for a hike, I'll bring my 7yr old. No I am not a sheep hunter, your right. But I do frequent the island, and your the first guy to try and make the point that it is a grueling sheep hunt. Since this abortion was your idea, why do such fine hunters as Denny Austad need a 5 day head start? Why does he need to hunt the rut? Why isn't there a antelope hunt out there? Not enough money for SFW to lobby for it? Troy, I did custom homes for 20 years, I loved the interest only loans, the funky finacing that went on, it produced about a decade of non stop work(money) for me. But I was honest, I never tried to say the people playing the game were all great men, deserving of our respect and graditude. I saw them for what they were, fools with money. It is extremely disingenuous for you to try to make these guys great saviors of wildlife. The guy bought an easy tag, knowing he had a very small ammount of acreage to cover, and bought himself a caddy. He is a fool with money, I know you'll never compromise your buisness saying so, but please spare us the "greatness" of this guy or guys like him. He could have hunted sheep everywhere for $55k, he wanted the closest thing to a high fence hunt he could find. Good luck this season with your buisness.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Nick your argument does not hold water. You state that if the record books did not recognize these animals there would be zero interest in hunting the Island.

Nick there is not a record book ram on that Island and I am not 100% sure if B&C even recognizes animals taken off it.

You also state there is only one hill out there! Really? If you spend as much time out there as you say you have do you really want to stick by that statement?

"He could have hunted sheep everywhere for $55K, he wanted the closet thing to a high fence hunt he could find."

Once again you are wrong on both fronts. 55K is on the bottom end of what sheep tags sell for. Montana's Statewide Rocky sold last weekend for $480,000 dollars the majority of sheep auction tags sell for well over 55K.

There is a ram out there that has Red ear tags in both ears, one of the older rams on the Island. If the Island is basicly a high fenced hunt how come no one has killed that ram? Infact I only know of one person who claims to have seen that ram during the hunt. If it is as easy as you say that ram would have been taken by now.

With out the auction tags there would be no average joe's hunting deer and sheep today. The auction tags were simple a vehicle to get hunting back on the Island.
There was not a chance in Hell that the Parks was just going to open the Island back up to hunting.

I would have no opposition if it did go to a draw only.

In every industry there are good and bad, but to paint a picture of every person that has bought a tag as you have is simply ignorant and short sighted.

X-treme
Troy Justensen
 
Troy I watched you miss a three legged sheep, not laughing at you, but making the point that it happens. So someone not being able to get an old ram is a lame argument. Yeah, AI is a 17 square mile island. How much of that holds sheep, honestly? There is a small fraction of that island that does. My whack at the books was meant for the deer out there. Be honest, the island was opened back up because your colleague THE DON guaranteed a 6 figure deer tag. There was ZERO lobbying by SFW to open it to a public draw. IF my memory serves, SFW guaranteed $225k? How did SFW know that? They had been told by someone that they would pay that. The island was not opened up to serve the public, it was opened to serve SFW's client list. You can't pretend that is false, then have THE DON running his mouth about how he succeeded in doing so.

Listen, it was your clients money, if a damn sheep is worth that to him, great for him. But HE DID NOT BUY THIS TAG TO HELP UTAH. He bought it because it was a tag he could buy. For you to try to paint his as some savior of wildlife is just stupid.

And yeah, the south end of the island that holds sheep is a very small area on a very small island. It is not vertical, YOU SHOT YOUR RAM laying in a sagebrush hill. We can pretend that all sheep don't live on the ledge, but lets not pretend they are an opend sagebrush animal either.

Again, good for you, you got paid, but lets just be honest. You had a client, he bought a tag, you caddied for him. He is not a donor, he is not a savior, he did not do anything other than buy a tag. He is no different than anyone else who buys a tag, other than he had TV cameras following him. I am not hating on you, but I don't drink the SFW coolaid. SFW, and thusly you, are for the dudes that fork out the $55k for a sheep, I just wish you all would be honest about what you do and who you do it for.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
So do you know how the sheep got on AI in the first place? Whose idea was it to get the nursery started out there? What did it cost? Where did that money come from? When it was started the plans were already in place to move sheep to the Newfoundland mtns, and Stansbury, The Oak Creeks and a few others have been in the works for years but it takes time and money to buy out grazing allotments, water projects, habitat work, etc. Not to mention federal permits and clearances. Not all land managers want wild sheep in their districts. From my understanding a game fence may have to be built to keep the wild sheep and domestics apart if or when wild sheep are moved to the Oak Creeks, I'm sure that won't be cheap. So when the next sheep transplant takes place remember it just didn't happen but has already been in the planning for years with money spent long before the first sheep is captured for the move.
 
And NOT ONE DIME of the money need to do the things you just stated came from this hunt. The money, after everyone gets there cut, stays on the island. The money needed for transplants, fence, etc, come from the DWR, hence us, or perhaps in combination with an outside group. The sheep were put out there LONG before SFW got involved.

SFW is AWESOME at seeing a parade coming down the road, then jumping out in front of it and claiming they are leading it. They have done 2 things successfully since their creation. They DID lead the fight in the prop 5 debate(and have ridden that for 20 years) and perpetuate themselves.

The reason that there is ZERO talk about how cake any other sheep or deer unit in the state is. Or how its basically a high fenced hunt, or how its set up during ruts, with head starts for the money men, is because this IS NOT A HUNT, ITS A SHOOT. It was a gift to deep pockets pushed for by SFW, PERIOD.

There were sheep out there, deer out there antelope out there, buffalos out there, LONG before SFW, THEY DID NOTHING FOR THEM, they just got what there friends wanted, the EASIEST HUNT IN THE WESTERN U.S., for mature rams and trophy deer. These animals were meant to be for viewing, and for a nursery, and wasn't set up for hunting, which is OK. We will be fine with 17 square miles of land, solely for wildlife viewing, we don't have to kill everything, everywhere.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
You are wrong about the sheep on AI without SFW they would not be there.
They came after lobbiing from SFW. The DWR did not foot the whole bill, with out private and conservation group money the sheep would not have been put on AI either. And most definitly without the lobbying of a few there would be no sheep on AI. You make many assumptions and state them as fact. Just like you blame SFW for the downturn on the Wasatch, Nebo and Manti elk. The ones who lowered the age objectives on those units, therefore allowing so many tags was the DWR and elk committee about 9 years back, then about 3or 4 years ago the elk committe reconvened and the ages were raised about 1 year on the Wasatch and Manti and the Nebo was moved to a trophy unit. Not sure if it will ever come back as the DWR has killed so many cows off it that they are hard to find. I don't remember seeing you at the RAC or WB mtg last year asking for lower bull tags and especially lower cow tags on either the Wasatch or Manti. Could have used some help on those especially the cow hunts on the Wasatch they have been hammered lately. I worry that there will be a major crash in the elk on those 2 units in the future and they surely will not be as good for troghy bulls as they were 10 years ago but we do need some units with a lot of elk and lower age objectives where a guy can draw without needing 15 plus points.
 
Hoss. I will never be able to afford a tag on AI. I am grateful for people willing to spend alot of money to help out wildlife projects and transplants for everyone. I would rather see someone enjoy a hunt than a old deer or ram die of old age. Just my opinion. Not everyone shares your views.
 
SFW is the master of strawman fighting. They lobby the state, we have people that will pay six figures to kill a deer on the island, 5 figures for a sheep. They get there hunt because they lobby idiots. The island turned a profit without the hunts last year, so SFW changes the argument. Now the hunt is for wildlife projects, mostly they argue for habitat improvements. AI has a carrying capacity for both sheep and deer. Mostly determined by the availability of water. SO NOW the money is for trasplants. THE MONEY MADE BY THE TAGS IS TO STAY ON THE ISLAND, their won't be one dime going to help out sheep that are NOT PHYSICALLY on the island. Hunter, I know that some people think we should kill every animal with horns whereever we see them, I disagree, but do so respectfully. But please, don't buy that the money spent for tags out there was "for wildlife". It was spent to help 2 herds, both of which you just pointed out you will never hunt. 1 of which was vibrant long before SFW got invovled saving them. You REALLY want to help the animals out there, go out and see them, $9 at the gate by everyone going out DOES A LOT MORE GOOD!

As for the Manti, your wrong. I was and have been involved for years. I quit going to RACS. They are simply dog and pony shows. I have been personally contacting WB members, RAC reps, and state legis. reguarding the Manti. I don't hunt the Wasatch, I just read about what is going on and after watching the raping of the Manti for revenue, I see it happening now. I would argue, and if I am wrong show me, but the Manti has more tags in the "conservation" banquet/expo circuit than any other unit. Call it what you want, but it was sacraficed for the greater(wallet size) good.

But if the Nebo has gotten that bad, shouldn't SFW be saving it?? I won't hold my breath, I doubt the Dennys of the world have any interest in it. Follow the money, thats where SFW is, not the other way around.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
"You REALLY want to help the animals out there, go out and see them, $9 at the gate by everyone going out DOES A LOT MORE GOOD!"

here are the entrance fees
$9 Day-Use per vehicle, which includes Davis County causeway fee
$6 Day-Use for Utah seniors 62+
$3 Cyclists and Pedestrians

right now there is roughly 300,000 visiters to the island each year...do the math and see how crowed the island would be to make up the money spent on the 2 tags auctioned off...

roughly
30,000 more car loads
or 45,000 seniors
or 90,000 Cyclists and Pedestrians
 
> "You REALLY want to help
>the animals out there, go
>out and see them, $9
>at the gate by everyone
>going out DOES A LOT
>MORE GOOD!"
>
>here are the entrance fees
> $9 Day-Use per vehicle, which
>includes Davis County causeway fee
>
> $6 Day-Use for Utah seniors
>62+
> $3 Cyclists and Pedestrians
>
>right now there is roughly 300,000
>visiters to the island each
>year...do the math and see
>how crowed the island would
>be to make up the
>money spent on the 2
>tags auctioned off...
>
>roughly
>30,000 more car loads
>or 45,000 seniors
>or 90,000 Cyclists and Pedestrians

HUH??? 300,000 visitors, thats about .75 per visitor, right? In order for 300,000 people to visit in cars each car would have to carry 10 people each to hit your numbers. Again, the island turned a profit without the tags. A profit MEANS after all the salaries, all the expenses, all the extras, IT TURNED A PROFIT. THIS TAG WAS NOT SOLD TO THE LEGISLATURE FOR WILDLIFE PROJECTS, solely on the island, it was to make the island solvent. The "
it is financing wildlife projects" is called SPIN. SPIN is what SFW excells at.

You don't have to agree with me about whether or not to hunt the island, but PLEASE, don't get sucked into the spin of SFW about how much it cares about the habitat on the island so it got these hunts. IT CARED ABOUT TWO OF ITS PEOPLE MAKING AN EASY KILL. It needed a way to sell the tags to the state, and when the island didn't need them to keep it afloat, it found another.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
HUH???
it don't matter how many people are in the car...still 9 bucks a truck load, heck there could be a hundred circus clowns packed into that volkswagan....still 9 bucks....

i will not drink the SFW Koolaid and don't care how they spin the island deal or if the island was solvent without the tags being sold...i like the thought someone is getting to hunt those bucks and rams...gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling...

i am sure you are well meaning hossbur and most likely right to question the motives of SFW...

but i just like the thought that every year a couple guys get the hunt of their lifetimes...

How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
SFW was trying to get hold of tags to hunt antelope island 15 years ago. They were trying to get Karl Malone a tag. He offered $100,000 or more. When the The Legislature started cutting the general budget monies from State Parks, SFW started pushing the $$$ aspect even harder. The Parks Board still balked so "certain legislators" put intent language in a last minute bill with the feel good language that the money from the auction tags would be to go to the park for wildlife. The ONLY (IMO) reason that there are public tags on the island is to make the auction tags more acceptable for the public (you and me) The main push/purpose for the tags is so SFW can get an opportunity for their high rollers to hunt the trophy game animals on AI IMO
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-13 AT 10:35AM (MST)[p]Troy,

Congrats to the Hunter, and YOU for guiding him. Looked like a TON of fun that I hope one day I will be able to participate in. Again that you for all your hard work and Best of luck to you and your business, a lot of us are jealous and would love to have your life.

Aaron

Tallbuck1
 
>SFW was trying to get hold
>of tags to hunt antelope
>island 15 years ago. They
>were trying to get Karl
>Malone a tag. He offered
>$100,000 or more. When the
>The Legislature started cutting the
>general budget monies from State
>Parks, SFW started pushing the
>$$$ aspect even harder. The
>Parks Board still balked so
>"certain legislators" put intent language
>in a last minute bill
>with the feel good language
>that the money from the
>auction tags would be to
>go to the park for
>wildlife. The ONLY (IMO) reason
>that there are public tags
>on the island is to
>make the auction tags more
>acceptable for the public (you
>and me) The main push/purpose
>for the tags is so
>SFW can get an opportunity
>for their high rollers to
>hunt the trophy game animals
>on AI
> IMO

I have been arguing in this post for god only knows how long and you pretty much covered it! Well done, wish I would have boiled it down this easily!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Am I alone in recognizing the lack of ethics displayed on this hunt? As a sheep hunter it makes me ill to watch, the hunter, guide and outfitter all change targets away from the ram that should obviously be harvested.I cant believe that after talking about the need to harvest the oldest ram: because it is the one that is going to die first anyway.Then, even after shooting at it, Troy, Greg and Mike would take the lazy way out and shoot a different ram. One that likely had several more years on him.
What Xtreme Outfitters did was perfectly legal but unethical to be sure as essentially they took 2 rams. Gimpy will die a natural death and the ram taken should have been taken in the future. Pseudo poaching at its finest.
 
hey if you wanna talk ethics Troy Justenson lets talk ethics.Ethically I take issue with you even claiming to have both state records for sheep.Firstly Peggy Burnetts Hunt was outfitted by Hub Grounds, not Xtreme like you claim. This hunt was essentially the shooting of a semitame ram that had never been hunted before. The locals in St George have photos of the ram practically eating out of their hands. Peggy bought the first and only permit for the unit. So Peggy was the only person who could have hunted for it.It is not fair to even compare this hunt with the ball breaking hunts in the Escalante or other units or to imply like you do that you are better sheep guides than your competitors because you hold the state record.
Even worse is your other "state record". I have been told that the Utes bought the ram from somewhere in B.C. and that it was already scored in the 180s when it was kicked out of the trailer on the reservation and even with that, it took you two years to hunt it up.So its not even a Utah sheep as I have been told and was raised in a pen.And again you didnt outfitt the hunt, The Utes did. And again, no other hunter or outfitter had the right to hunt the ram.Troy you cant even hunt up a crippled ram thats trapped on an island...just keeping you honest...
 
>Looks like they found gimpys dead
>head, I wish it would
>of been a bullet that
>took him.


Really... Do you have pictures? That is too bad he couldn't have gone another year.



Tallbuck1
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-15-13 AT 05:40PM (MST)[p]Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.

7705ramhead.jpg
 
Here is the other original transplant ram that also winter killed.

Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.


3763img_0401.jpg
 
I've heard people saying "Gimpy" might be a new record. He looks too short in length to make it to 170". Maybe mid to low 160s?



There's always next year
 
Getting nervous were ya. lol Ya, if he were even he might go high 160's. Got great mass though. I'll let you know what he scores when we get him back. Chance are high you will never see another ram get this old on the island.

Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-13 AT 01:04PM (MST)[p]No worries.
I don't believe your ram is going to get surpassed any time soon, Ridgetops. He is a legend for a Utah Cali Ram.

So is that for sure the Gimpy ram? And did you find it Yelum?
Great heavy OLD rams.
Thanks for sharing the pics.
 
It is for sure gimpy, but I was corrected on the other ram. it was 11 laying on 12.

I did not find them, my friends did.

Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.
 
You guys are funny. I'm not worried about another 170"+ ram being killed. I can't wait to see it. Hopefully in person.
Records are made to be broken, right?


Here's a picture of the original group of rams transplated on the Stansburys in 2006.
The old ram died in 2009 and I think they said he was around 13 years old too.

5810trans.jpg


4901trans_2.jpg





I think if he could have lived one more year, old Double D would have lived another day.lol



There's always next year
 
Even though our little chat has nothing to do with the original post,Let's hummor the MM crowd and have that talk.

Here is my Rap Sheet in the 1980's I was cited for one of my trap's not having the correct spacer. I was an 1/8 inch short.

In the 1990's I was given a ticket for not having my license on my person.

All right Brad your turn to post yours!

You state you have problems with X-treme's claims to holding both state records for Rockies & Deserts.

First question Brad. Are they not offically the biggest sheep taken in the State? If it would make you feel better we could petition B&C to see if they would recognize Brad Turners unit records maybe we could even expand it to biggest 3 or 4 year old's as well. This would provide you with more oportunity to get your name out!

Peggy's record will not hold, within the next few years the state record will be taken off of the Zion.
Yes Peggy's hunt was ran through Hub Grounds PERMIT and his guide service. Greg Bird found the ram and guided Peggy on the hunt. Greg is part Owner of X-treme Outfitting.
Hub gave permission for Greg to use Peggy's picture in our advertisment.

If the shoe was on the other foot I am sure you would feel the way you do right?

Obvoisly you have no clue on how thing's work on the Ute Tribe. During the 7 or 8 years we were PERMITTED to guide sheep hunters on the Reservation. I have no knowledge of the tribe releasing any sheep besides what already exsisted on tribal grounds. I would be willing to bet money that this ram was born and lived his whole life on tribal land.

Jeremy Small (Kid) was the one who originally found the ram the year we missed him with a smoke pole. We turned up the ram the following year and both Jeremy and myself were with Danny when the ram was taken.

Out of courtesy and respect credit was shared between Ute Tribe Outfitting and X-treme Outfitting.

So if we can't count that ram, what about Mike's ram? Still over 193 largest bases ever recorded on a bighorn or are you going to claim that ram was a plant as well!

You are a guide Brad, you had the same opportunity as we did to obtain these permits. So quit whinning and keep pounding those ball busting units you love.

One thing for sure Brad what you lack in size you make up in EGO!

X-treme
Troy Justensen
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-13 AT 09:40PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-13 AT 09:36?PM (MST)

Brad is this the kind of ethics you have, you have balls to call Troy and GREG OUT.........WOW





An Alaska jury convicted a Payson man last week of wasting wildlife and transporting antlers out of the field. His partner on a caribou hunting expedition last year pleaded no contest to similar charges in April.

According to Alaska Fish and Wildlife officials, Brad Turner and partner shot four large bull caribou on Sept. 2, 1995, near Crescent Lake, about 60 miles northeast of Dillingham. The two transported the antlers out but left most of the meat to spoil.Turner was convicted May 2 of two counts of wanton waste of a big game animal and two counts of trans-porting antlers before all edible meat was transported. He was sentenced to 70 days in jail and fined $7,000. He also must complete 320 hours of community service and was placed on five years probation. He can't hunt in Alaska for 10 years, and the Alaska Fish and Wildlife confiscated his hunting equipment.

partner pleaded no contest to two counts of transporting antlers out of the field before all edible meat had been removed. He also was fined $2,500 and cannot hunt in Alaska for five years
 
Troy,
I didn't realize you where such a hardened wildlife violator : )
Dont forget the seagull you shot at with your BB gun when you where 9.

Brad calling Troy out for hunting ethics is a bit like Tiger Woods calling out Phil Mickelson on marital morals because he forgot to get his wife a Valentine.
 
Warrpath, you did miss a few important details about the 1995 Alaska hunt. Mainly that the only meat that was wasted was the rib meat and tenderloins were not stripped out of 1 of the 4 carcasses on the day of the kill. Less than 1% of my meat.Privately owned meat. The "left most of the meat to rot" was false and misleading and remains a case study in testilying and perjury by the state Trooper.99% of the meat from all 4 animals was fully accounted for.You just need to a more reliable source than court documents, crooked cops and newspapers.And even though I was punished severely there was no impact to wildlife or the publics resource.In short warpath only an idiot like you would care.
Perfect example, this hunt of Troys that is a real tragedy for the sheep on antelope island but is portayed as a good thing by the media. This hunt resulted in real harm to publicly owned wildlife. As we have seen from this thread rams all over antelope island in wheelchairs and walkers dying of old age. Then Xtreme outfitters comes in and shoots a class 3, seven year old ram. Not the 10 year old Troy claims by counting the false annuli.This type of real poaching bespeaks the larger problem with Utahs sheep program. Old Rams dying of old age and crappy outfitters killing middle aged animals that are not yet in their prime. The result is a double harvest and plummeting ram numbers. Exactly what is happening in most of Utahs sheep units.
Additionally Troy I think you missed one of your state records. Dont you hold the state record for sending the most hunters home with out a sheep?
 
Cal, maybe you would care to point out anything in my record that should be of public concern. Look close maybe you can see something that resulted in harm to wildlife or natural resources or other sportsmen.I cant.There is a disconnect in wildlife law, where harmcausing is not illegal but lots of silly thing are.Look close and tell us what is noteworthy. Troys failure to produce on several of his hunts is noteworthy and and was harmful to his hunters, so is shooting young rams while old ones are left to suffer and die.It results in the premature depletion of the resource. Real measurable results.....Nobody cares if Troy didnt have his license on his person or if I cut the scrotum off a deer when butchering it. That is no except those who profit from it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-20-13 AT 09:27AM (MST)[p]I've been on quite a few sheep hunts over the years as an extra set of eyes, cheap pack labor, camp cook, and motivational speaker.

I'd give my left nut to finally have a sheep tag in MY pocket.

However, I would not give either of you a plug nickel to go on a sheep hunt. They're too rare to have the fun sucked out it, be caught in an outfitter competition, or to be later dragged into the conversation as some sort of proof of your immature masculinity.

You guys are good at dramatic entertainment though, and should you continue maybe you guys could get booked on Jerry Springer.
 
This thread sure went downhill.
I'm starting to feel like a looser shooting an 8 year old ram. Although it was the 3rd oldest on the unit at the time. The two oldest rams were so darn ugly, I probably would have just euro mounted them.
I have a question, if "gimpy" was so easy to kill and such a great trophy. Why didn't the state hunter kill it?
 
For some reason, no one wants to hunt more than a day. The state hunter shot maybe a 5-7 year old ram, 1st day.

Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.
 
Unfortunately it seems many novice sheep hunters have no clue how fortunate they are. Those who come to realize how prized a sheep tag is, will eventually do everything they can to extend the hunt. I passed on a nice ram the first day of my Wyoming Rocky hunt, because I didn't want the hunt to end. I was glad I did. What an incredible adventure.
Ridgetops figured it out and spent most of a month on his hunt. Perhaps all Island hunters ought to be required to follow Yelum around for a week, before they get any bullets! LOL
Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a week shadowing Yelum myself!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-20-13
>AT 09:27?AM (MST)
>
>I've been on quite a few
>sheep hunts over the years
>as an extra set of
>eyes, cheap pack labor, camp
>cook, and motivational speaker.
>
>I'd give my left nut to
>finally have a sheep tag
>in MY pocket.
>
>However, I would not give either
>of you a plug nickel
>to go on a sheep
>hunt. They're too rare
>to have the fun sucked
>out it, be caught in
>an outfitter competition, or to
>be later dragged into the
>conversation as some sort of
>proof of your immature masculinity.
>
>
>You guys are good at dramatic
>entertainment though, and should you
>continue maybe you guys could
>get booked on Jerry Springer.
>


A truer statement has never been said. It's nice to see someone eelse shares my view on what hunting means to them.
 
To bad he missed gimpy. even with that with fancy dancy scope. but he got a nice ram for sure
 
also for the money being spent on a hunt I would be P.O. if an outfitter took me road hunting..
 
According to the Utah DWR Sheep Management Plan, the Antelope Island sheep started with 23 Kamloops BC Cali Rams brought in back in 1997.
All of the sheep on the Stansburys and the Newfys are listed as being translocated from Antelope Island, which means all of Utah's Cali rams originate from the BC stock.
It sticks in my mind the DWR brought in a few Cali Rams from Nevada one year and put them on the Newfys as well, but that is not listed on the DWR website.
But some have accused me of being senile!
And I can't remember who said that either? :)
 
Im sure Nevada sent some California's to Utah back around the late 90s or possibly 2000. I think I was on that capture. I THOUGHT they were headed for AI but I too am getting senile. I was on another capture more recently that sent deserts to southern Utah so I could be confused.

Point is, its like the old adage, it takes a village to raise a child. Those sheep aren't there because of any single organization or individual or pool of money.
 
I for one, very much appreciate our good neighbors to the West...and sorry but I am not talking about California!!!
Our sheep have benefited from your good management and generosity.
We have also received sheep from Wyoming, Montana, and Colorado to help us get the meager herds we have. Sheep are much like kids...delicate animals that need help from everyone to make it!
Thanks NVBighorn! I frequently visit with nvnative79 and he regularly mentions your sheep efforts. I am especially looking forward for some of those magical NV genes to start working down in the Kaiparowitz units! Kudos to you guys!
 
When we checked my wifes newfy ram in, I was also told by the DWR that some of the sheep on Newfy were from Nv.



Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.
 
Sorry guys... I killed a 7 1/2 year old 174 ram. Still had milk on his lips. I'm such a freaking idiot!!! What the hell was I thinking??? Oh wait... It was MY hunt, I killed the ram I wanted because it was MY hunt and nobody was going to tell me what I should do on MY hunt!!!

Carry on!!!
 
>
>
>Sorry guys... I killed a 7
>1/2 year old 174 ram.
>Still had milk on his
>lips. I'm such a freaking
>idiot!!! What the hell was
>I thinking??? Oh
>wait... It was MY hunt,
> I killed the ram
>I wanted because it was
>MY hunt and nobody was
>going to tell me what
>I should do on MY
>hunt!!!
>
> Carry on!!!


I know a lot of "us" don't feel shortchanged by an early in the season kill. After all the months of planning, exploring, and scouting most of the "hunt" has already occured before the opener. The season is just dates on the calender...hunting is a four-season event.

Your 7.5 yo ram is better than representative of what you saw and deserves at a minimum congratulations and a photograph with a big ol' grin.

At least you don't have to belittle someone else to prove how big your juevos are. ;)
 
its all about the ram that wasnt taken not the one that was. Sometimes 7 year olds are the biggest and oldest ones that are located on a hunt. Onedryboot my bet is that you didnt pass a larger, older ram. I am not being critical of the ram that was taken. I am being critical of not continuing pursuit of the one that should have been taken.That this hunter, guide and outfitter had a moral duty and obligation to pursue the other ram, at least for a day or two, seems obvious. I called them out for it.
This thread did have the fun sucked out of it and did go downhill when Troy rather than staying on subject changed the subject to me and my criminal record that FYI is better than his.You cant blame me for defending myself.
 
As Sportsmen and especially as Outfitters we have a duty and a responsibility to the wildlife that we hunt and especially to wild Sheep. Wild Sheep are unique because they are so rare and vulnerable and deserve special and careful consideration when hunting them. You simply cannot and should not approach a Sheep hunt the same way that you do a deer hunt.Sheep hunters are the managers of Wild Sheep.

Our Sheep managers with the state may have less influence on Utah Sheep herds than do hunters. If you study the age dynamics of the sheep harvested like I do. You will notice that in Utahs Sheep units where populations are reversing one of the first things to go downhill is the average age of the rams harvested.Few things are as tragic for a wild sheep population than for the hunters to average taking 5 year old rams because in roughly equal numbers rams are dying of old age. So the unit suffers the loss of twice the ram numbers as the quota.

I think Utah still uses a quota that is something 10% of total rams. Well if the average ram taken is 10 years old. Because the average age at natural death is also 10 years old, the unit can bear this quota in perpetuity. And as the herd expands so can the tag numbers.

I work very hard and insist that my guides take only old rams. That standard lowers as the hunt goes on and I would advise any hunter to take a 3 year old ram on the evening of the last day of hunt because few things are so tragic to a hunter as going home with out a ram.Anyway I am proud of my track record on old rams with 128 hunts to account for I have averaged harvesting a 10 year old ram and that includes problematic hunts and unendorsed rams. When you look at the rams that I have endorsed taking that number jumps to 11 years old. The average ram that I endorse taking has already surpassed his life expectancy. That is good wildlife management.
 
I don't have enough steel in my legs anymore to hunt sheep. So I content myself with Jack O'Connor's second choice. But if I did, I'd want to hunt with an outfitter like you.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-20-13 AT 01:10PM (MST)[p]This SFW philosophy or mentality of "they are doing it for the animals and to help the common guy" is a bunch of BS!!! People with that kind of thinking fit in well with the SFW philosophy that is identical to the "King's Deer" garbage in Europe that the NAM tries not to emulate!
 

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