Anybody with a glass half full?

[Katoom]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-19 AT 05:34PM (MST)[p]I am not deer hunting this year but am noting the almost universal disgust at what seem to be poor deer numbers and excessive hunter numbers in several states by guys who are out there this season. In addition, I am discouraged by all the talk about the new CO season structures, late dates, too many tags, etc. Is this all much ado about nothing? sour grapes from the everyone gets a trophy generation? Or is it a real, systemic and worsening issue that is not caused just by cyclical weather patterns but instead by management decisions that seem intentionally or negligently aimed at decimating deer herds? It's hard to believe that would be the case but with the CWD hype, is there a secret (not-so-secret?) goal on behalf of a "cartel" of state's DOW to pretty much wipe out the herds? Just sayin, from the sidelines, it sounds surprisingly dire and like deer are an endangered species overnight. Looking for any ol'timers with wise perspective to chime in and present the counter arguement... if there is one (and I hope there is).

I'll add this, alot of the complaints are follwed up by something to the effect of "had to settle for a small buck by the end of the hunt" meaning that people are still killing deer. Makes sense to me that if hunters keep killing the small ones, there is really no reason to expect big ones....

 

[Bluehair]

I'm not a scientist so not going to speculate on environmental factors impacting populations. BUT, to me the herds look the same as always on private ground. Public is in trouble. Some would assume we are hunting them to death.

Bluehair
Splitting my time time between the winter and summer range......
May you live long enough to cash in those preference points. Amen

 

[andrew12gauge]

I'm no old timer but I'm old enough to remember 2016 in Idaho when we(Idaho deer hunters as a collective) killed more mule deer than any single season in this state ever. This was following several mild winters with minimal winterkill. That winter we had feet of snow on the valley floors until March. Winterkill was high, especially so amongst the fawn crop that year. Some areas reported 90%+ fawn mortality. IDFG told us it wouldn't effect hunting all that much in 2017, they said there would be fewer young bucks but still plenty of mature bucks and that held true. They told us that when we would really see the impact would be 3-4 years down the road. Lo and behold here we are and everybody acts shocked that mule deer are harder to find. It's a natural cycle. We went through it in the late ?90?s, everybody panicked about low mule deer populations then but with mild winters the deer bounced back. We?ve had some tough winters the last couple years, hopefully some mild winters are on the way. If so we will see a bounce back once again.

 

[elkassassin]

>I'm no old timer but I'm
>old enough to remember 2016
>in Idaho when we(Idaho deer
>hunters as a collective) killed
>more mule deer than any
>single season in this state
>ever. This was following several
>mild winters with minimal winterkill.
>That winter we had feet
>of snow on the valley
>floors until March. Winterkill was
>high, especially so amongst the
>fawn crop that year. Some
>areas reported 90%+ fawn mortality.
>IDFG told us it wouldn't
>effect hunting all that much
>in 2017, they said there
>would be fewer young bucks
>but still plenty of mature
>bucks and that held true.
>They told us that when
>we would really see the
>impact would be 3-4 years
>down the road. Lo and
>behold here we are and
>everybody acts shocked that mule
>deer are harder to find.
>It's a natural cycle. We
>went through it in the
>late ?90?s, everybody panicked about
>low mule deer populations then
>but with mild winters the
>deer bounced back. We?ve had
>some tough winters the last
>couple years, hopefully some mild
>winters are on the way.
>If so we will see
>a bounce back once again.
>

I Hate to Report it!

But it'll take more than just some Mild Winters!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[eelgrass]

If you deer hunted in the 60's and 70's the glass looks half empty. The biologists want you to buy a tag.

 

[elks96]

There is absolutely no doubt the plans of Colorado Parks and Wildlife in the NW corner. They came right out and said, in order to fight CWD we must kill all the mature deer. Hence the reason why many tags in the NW saw either a shift of a couple hundred tags from 2nd to 3rd. Also the reason why some 4th season tags saw a 300% increase. This move came out of a CWD working group, but it was very apparent that from the beginning they had a plan in place before we ever started the working group...

It is bad enough that some guides in the NW sold their businesses this year because they do not see a very bright future. I know of one who specifically started he had to leave the guiding business because for the next 10 years it would be dishonest to take any paying clients on a deer hunt.

As for your other question. On a larger scale, in Colorado we have some real issues we are staring down a gun at. The seasons dates are a major concern. there is only one outcome that will occur when you shift hunt back into Thanksgiving. That is more mature deer will be killed. So managers will either accept lower buck doe ratios and a younger age class of bucks, or they will shift tags/cut tags away from 3rd and 4th seasons and bulk up more in the 2nd season. No matter what point creep for deer which had never been nearly as bad for elk, is about to get stupid...


As for winters... We always have winters, always will have winters. I do not buy into the idea that our winters are any worse then before. I do not really believe they are any more frequent. I however believe that habitat and predators are limiting the herds ability to recover after a winter. Long term data from NW Colorado showed in the 70s and 80s we had massive winter kills on deer, but populations would typically rebound in 3-4 years. The growth those following years were consistent and allowed for the population to rebound.

The same area in the 90s would have a similar winter kill and soon it was taking the deer 5-6 years to come back. They simply were not able to recover as fast. Since the 90s the deer herds are even slower to recover. Many of the deer groups can not recover after a hard winter before the next hard winter hits. Thus any recovery that was made was slow and taken away.

What does it mean? Not sure yet, but in Colorado the recovery is pretty likely tied to one thing (at least in this area). Predators... The trapping ban was the start, the bear hunting bans the next step, etc. The studies in the area show that habitat is not a limiting factor. The deer are healthy, they are fat, on all but the worst winters they have really good body scores, most doe will birth 2 healthy twins in the spring, pregnancy rates are really high etc.

Add all of this to the fact that the anti hunters in Colorado are pushing for a state ballot initiative to introduce wolves and there is nothing about Colorado that is 1/2 full. For the longest time I was a cup 1/2 full guy but the last 4 years it has went horrible...

I am not optimistic about Colorado at all. The only high light, maybe if we kill enough elk and deer the wolves will not have enough food to get established???

 

[HiMtnHntr]

In terms of overall deer numbers and quality hunt opportunities I am not in the glass half full crowd. I have seen deer numbers go down overall and hunter opportunity go down over the last 2 decades. There is nothing to indicate a reversal of this trend. I wish I could say different things but I can't.

 

[Muley_73]

I'd take half empty at this point. It's more like 1/8 full.

 

[elkassassin]

For Several Years I gave Colorado Credit where Credit was Due!

If they could see something/Unit/Deer Numbers Dropping off they used management that Helped Bring it back!

The Last several Years they've done No Better than TARDville!

Sounds like Idaho Ain't Helping things Neither!

JFP!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Katoom]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-08-19 AT 05:52PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-08-19 AT 05:50?PM (MST)

Good discussion, I think we got some neutrals but more negative reports. I think that between development, energy extraction, season structures, invasive plants, fire supression, weather, predator politics, diseases, weak data collection and suspect population models, hidden DOW agendas,livestock grazing, wolves coming, poaching, roadkills, long range snipers, backcountry recreationists, internet assisted hunting info, Google Earth, Onyx, drones, trail cams, 365 scouting, winter sports, shed collecting, wind farms, etc, etc, could it just might finally be that we are asking a bit much of the deer herds?

 

[fullthrottle]

Ahh....ya

 

[scopenstalk]

>LAST EDITED ON Nov-08-19
>AT 05:52?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-08-19
>AT 05:50?PM (MST)
>
>Good discussion, I think we got
>some neutrals but more negative
>reports. I think that between
>development, energy extraction, season structures,
>invasive plants, fire supression,
>weather, predator politics, diseases, weak
>data collection and suspect population
>models, hidden DOW agendas,livestock
>grazing, wolves coming, poaching, roadkills,
>long range snipers, backcountry recreationists,
>internet assisted hunting info, Google
>Earth, Onyx, drones, trail cams,
>365 scouting, winter sports, shed
>collecting, wind farms, etc, etc,
>could it just might finally
>be that we are asking
>a bit much of the
>deer herds?


Pretty much summed it up. Should've added flat brimmer instafamous crowd doing whatever it takes to get that next like.......

 

[yoteduster]

Katoom hit it right on the head that pretty well sums it up along with the train of though couldn't fine a big one so had to settle (take)a small one...

 

[elkassassin]

I've said for many Years it's a combination of 50+ Things!

Glad somebody-else see's it as well!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[johnnyutah]

I'm cautiously half full. I'm still waiting to see what the rut and the next snow storm turns up before I draw any conclusions for myself.

2018 year was a good hunt in Southern Utah. High success rates and lots of mature bucks. Point creep in Pine Valley was noticeable as a lot of people with a point didn't draw this year. All the conversation this spring centered around no winter kill and how big the antlers would get with all the water.

It's hard to believe this all just vanished in 6 months because of "50 things". I can't help think people are barking up the wrong tree.

2019 was definitely off for success in my circle. My brother-in-law invited me to come along with his family on Beaver. I told him there are bad reports there this year on the archery. He said "well, they must not be hunting where we hunt." I went with them on the rifle and they were shocked at the low numbers. There was a stark contrast between 2018 and 2019.

I know someone who consistently does well on Utah Hill. He said they saw 2 bucks. One in a farmers field, and one in the dark when they were driving. He didn't have a tag and was helping one person. They typically have at least 6 people in their party and fill 5+ tags with mature bucks.

I just helped the past 2 days on a CWMU deer hunt near Fish Lake. We didn't see a deer on that ranch. Typically the deer are herded up down low and the rut is going strong by now. The ranch has both high and low areas. There were some deer down low by the gate on public land. There were reports of some up high. They are still scattered and not grouped up.

I have other bad reports but will just sum it up with it seems bad this hunt.

I still suspect the deer are out there. They were there at the end of the 2018. There is no massive reported kill off. I wonder if the typical patterns are just off due to unusual weather.

I contrast this year with 2004. People were constantly griping on mm about bad numbers, need to cut tags, cut dates bla bla. There was a good snow storm right before the rifle hunt and made conditions favorable. Tons of mature bucks were killed throughout the state. The deer were there, people just didn't know it until the weather cooperated.

Again, I'm waiting for a good snow storm before I figure if the sky has fallen.

 

[IdaMatt]

I'm half full, still see lots of deer etc., but I do think it could be better.

I'm with elks96, I really do believe the massive increase in predators is playing the major roll. As long as the States continue to take away hunting opportunities for predators, it will get worse. Back in the day, States hired people to kill coyotes, etc.... Also, there are TONS of bears, I never remember seeing bears when I was a kid, most years I see 10-15 bears, I can only shoot one each year....these animals are really hard on fawns/calves.

I don't think making every unit controlled to where States only give out a couple tags is the answer either (yes I know this helps with trophy potential), but then only a couple people get to hunt, that really drops hunter participation and recruitment, think about it, some anti-hunting groups are encouraging this scenario.

Hunting has changed, I remember when I was a kid, we were really happy to get a forked horn, or just any buck. A small 4-point was like hitting the lottery.