AR-301

[wileywapati]

I am bringing this discussion over from another board
but the new proposal for Utah Limited Entry is a huge loss for bowhunters in Utah.

What has been proposed by the DWR and a prominent sportsmens group is as follows. Do away with AR-301

A split of all LTD elk tags in the following ratio's

65% Rifle

25% archery

10% muzzleloader

With no harvest percentage data taken into effect bowhunters would recieve their tags based on 100% success ratio's as is the current proposal

Typically the complaint about this hunt from non bowhunters is no Bonus point or waiting period restrictions, after some thought I can't say that I disagree with this complaint anymore as I did in the past.

With some minor tweaking ( perhaps bonus points and a shorter
waiting period addition ) there is no reason to lose this opportunity,

Under the current proposal the any weapon LTD elk draw
will see a substantial increase in drawing odds. The ltd entry archery draw for the units such as Manti Wasatch Cache and Dutton would go as high as any weapon tags.

Please contact your regional UBA rep and express your wishes

Gordy

 

[SureShot]

If what you say is correct (that the tags will be based on 100% success), that would indeed be a step backwards from the current opportunities available to bowhunters.

However, when I read the article, I interpreted it differently. Here's what it says:

"Allocate limited entry elk permits on all units in a consistent way, based on weapon type ? 25 percent archery, 65 percent any weapon and 10 percent muzzleloader. This distribution would reduce current rifle elk hunting opportunities on some units and increase the number of archers and muzzleloader hunters on the units. This would lay the groundwork for expanded limited entry elk hunting opportunities in the future, because archers and muzzleloader hunters are less successful than rifle hunters."

The last sentence is the key. It acknowledges that muzzleloader hunters and archers have a lower success rate.

My interpretation of this is that the DWR will say something like, "We want to harvest 100 bulls in this unit. We know rifle hunters have a 90% success rate, archers have a 20% success rate and muzzleloader hunters have a 50% success rate. So, we'll offer 72 rifle tags, 125 archery tags, and 20 muzzleloader tags."

By doing it this way, they are able to offer a total of 217 tags for the unit instead of only 110 if they were all rifle tags. More people move through the system faster, the maximum bonus point ceiling stays lower, and we all have the chance for a premium elk hunt more than once in our lifetimes. I think it's a good move.

 

[Cass]

Jesus is utah trying to kill all the elk?
They completely Obliterated the biggest herd in Utah. Just leave ##### as it is... Good god utah.



-Cass

 

[SureShot]

Cass,

This proposal won't change the total number of elk killed in any of the units--just the method by which they are killed. I don't understand your complaint.

 

[Cass]

My complaint is that Utah needs to stop screwing with the elk herd. EVERYTHING they do just screws it up more.
Perfect example.
Fish Lake Elk Herd. Biggest in the state. COMPLETELY OBLITERATED.



-Cass

 

[muzzle]

I agree with sure shot. I think "opportunity" will increase while still maintaining heard objectives. I would like to hunt in these units more than once in my life. (The way it is now, I don't think i'll ever get a shot durring my life time.)

 

[SureShot]

Yeah, the elk herd is way worse now than it was fifteen years ago. First 400 net bull in its history was killed last year and it looks like at least 3 more will be added to the list this year.

Back in the days when almost everything was a general season, any bull unit, you considered yourself lucky to see any mature bull. Now, you can see dozens of them in a weekend on almost any unit. It's definitely worse now. The DWR must be doing a terrible job.

I'll admit, they made a mistake on Fish Lake and they have admitted as much. However, they are doing an excellent job overall of improving the elk herd and providing quality elk hunting opportunites.

 

[Deerlove]

Sure shot, I hope your interpretion is correct, because I agree with it 100%. If there going to do away with the ar 301 I hope we as bowhunters can make it up in increased tags on the limited entry, Therefore increasing to odds for a few rifle hunters. Allocating a greater # of archery tags is the best way to clean some waiting with out decimating the herds. Also these archery tags should be pushed back til the end of Sept. Russ

 

[c3]

Well put SureShot! It appears the support for the AR301 is over.

This "harvest rate allocation of permits" has been discussed at great length with the president of the SFW. I don't believe they are completely backing the idea of permit allocation based on harvest rates.

My suggestion is to call your local Wildlife Board, or RAC member and put this concept of harvest rate allocation in their ear now, before the RAC's get started.

Then when this is all brought up at these meetings it won't be a suprise to anyone. They'll have had time to get a grip of the idea and see the logic in it. I hate to say it, but many of the RAC members don't read the info given to them before they get to the RAC meetings.

CASS, I afraid you don't really understand what is going on here. Every unit in the state is over objective for elk herd size. The average age of bulls harvested is 7 - 9 years old on most of the units. The objective for many of the spike bull units is to have 5 - 6 year old bull harvests. This requires many more permits than have been given in years past.

We Utahns are looking forward to much more opportunity for elk hunting limited entry units over the next few years. The low success rates for archery will allow much more of this.

Now it just needs to be shown that the extra harvest needed right now can come from 5 hunters for every bull harvested that archery offers.

This is good for the elk herds. Good for archery opportunity and a significant lessening of applicants for the rifle draws. It's a win win for every one in the state of Utah.

Get out and voice your opinion at the RAC's coming up. It makes a big difference.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[wileywapati]

There will be NO HARVEST PERCENTAGE DATA TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT
you will get a straight 25% of the tags and that is it.
It makes no freaking sense to subtract tags from a group with a 14% success and give them to a group with 100% success.
How is this good for elk how is this good financially how is this
good for anybody but rifle hunters.
This information came straight from the president of Sportsman For Fish and Wildlife and will be presented this way to the RACs.
Utah Bowmens Association has said they will fight for this hunt.
Please get out there and help

 

[huntnfool]

20% success on the limited entry archery is way off. Right from the fish and game, lets take the Pahvant unit for archery only.
year:
1997--100%
1998--60%
1999--100%
2000--100%
Hardly a 20 percent success rate. These limited entry units cannot be compared to the general archery success.
On alot of the limited entry units the success rate on the archery hunt is just as high as the any weapon hunt.

 

[wileywapati]

Use a reputable tool for harvest data those numbers are the biggest pile of B.S. I have ever seen, damn I wish I could approach 100% get real AR-301 true harvest data 14%

 

[c3]

An example. The Filmore Oak Creek unit as it was with all those bulls that got killed last year had a 0 harvest rate by archers since it's inception.

Not one bull has been killed by an archer on that unit, yet the DWR says that harvest rates for archery are 100% there.

I know quite a few people who have drawn archery bull tags and gone empty handed. The numbers are just plain wrong.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[huntnfool]

These numbers are far better than the ar 301. with these you send in teeth to get aged along with the questionare what you going to do get teeth from somewhere else just so you can say you killed???. ar 301 you get a questionare did you kill or not. I know people that send back the 301 survey saying no kill even though they did because they knew if the success got to high the hunt would be in trouble.
you want more.
1997
indian peaks 100%
1998
south west desert 100%
beaver 100%
Boulder 100%
Paunsaugunt 100%
1999
oak creek 100%
monroe 100%
2000
San Juan 100%

Another point
On the pahvant Muzzeloader from 1997 to 2000 a 0% success so lets make it unlimited since no one can kill one. How stupid would that be? Point is you can't go off of statistics they change every year.

 

[wileywapati]

Gentlemen you are missing my point as was said above stats
don't mean much I say 14% you say 100%. It is a can of worms that does not need to be opened.

No matter what happens with harvest percentages some group of hunters is gonna be pissed. If bowhunters get figures based at under 20% like should happen Sportsmen for Fish and Rifle hunters will be in there freaking out again next year.

If harvest percentage is where it is proposed now there won't be many happy Bowhunters, why even go down this unnesecary road when you dont have to ?

What's the reason this hunt went from almost having 500 tags at last years RACs and getting the Wasatch unit added without a word from any bowhunter. To this year where the DWR won't touch it with a ten foot pole is the wrong group of organized people
bent the ear of some very high ranking officials at the DWR
about this hunt not having any bonus points or waiting periods attached.

Generally the first reaction you get from someone tells the whole story and as I remember it was stated by the president of SFW " the AR-301 needs to go bye bye bring your bonus points and waiting periods to the table like everyone else "
Not one reason Biologically, Financially or having to do with public safety Simply we don't like it that you don't have points or waiting periods like everyone else.
This tags in each unit is smoke up the 5 hole this is spin to cover up the real motives behind loosing this hunt. BONUS POINTS and WAITING PERIODS Pretty freaking petty if you ask me.

Going unit by unit will flood the rifle draw with more people that would put in for AR-301 tags 955 in 02. If a unit has 10 archery tags and 65 rifle tags say the Manti or the Wasatch for example how much difference do you think the odds of drawing will be for rifle hunters or bowhunters. I will bet that on certain units your chance of drawing a tag just went out the window either bow or rifle.

I will ask for one reason to end this hunt if waiting periods and bonus points are equal across the board for AR-301 any weapon or smoker.

There is none, drop the petty bullcrap and either work out a solution to modify this hunt or at least fess up and say it how it really is.

 

[huntnfool]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-03 AT 02:50PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-03 AT 02:47?PM (MST)

I don't think you realize who has be putting in for the ar-301.
I'll bet 80 to 90 % are people who are on waiting period for elk. All the people I know are. I know 5 people alone that drew a limited entry tag last year and drew a 301 tag this year. This is one of the big reasons people are having a big problem with this hunt.
You want a reason, why the hell should you get to hunt numerous units when everyone else only gets to hunt one. Be like everyone else pick a unit, draw it and hunt only that unit. simple, But no you want a little bit more, never happy. Talk about petty, you don't want fair you want a little bit more that everyone else or your not happy. Every unit in the south went to a three hunt system and it's been working fine. The 301 messed it all up and now it's time to get the whole state back on track. There is nothing wrong with the three hunt system for every unit. It is by far a better system than the 301 ever thought of being. I for one am glad someone finally realized the 301 was a mistake and want to fix it.

 

[monroemtnshedfreak]

Cass has got a point about them screwing up the fishlake herd. 2 years ago somebody got the bright idea to let anybody who bought a spike tag, buy a cow tag for $15 more. This was on top of the 1300 cow tags that people had already drawn. It was projected by DWR, that it will take 12 years for the fishlake heard to get back to where it was, that is if they don't give off any cow tags at all.

 

[c3]

Huntnfool, the numbers are simply wrong. Please show me one hunt that has gone 100%. Not what the DWR's hired out survey says, but actual hunters, harvest pics etc. There isn't a limited entry archery hunt that has gone 100% virtually ever since their introduction.

I don't think you get the concept of the AR301 or that of expanded opportunity. It's supposed to be totally and completely unfair. The is the object!

Get people out of the limited entry draws for rifle. Give hunters in the state of Utah more than a once in a lifetime chance at a big bull hunt. Make it terribly painful to see some one draw year after year, while you languish in a points nightmare.

Don't you see that that is exactly the point. Make it so that folks will take up the challange of archery hunting. They kill way fewer animals for a given resource. This is good for the elk, good for opportunity and good for rifle hunters odds.

Pure unadulterated selfishness is what stands in the way of your seeing this. What you are saying is nothing more than, "If I can't have it neither can you". My point is you can draw that AR301 permit every year if you'd only put in for it. It's perfectly fair because it is available to you anytime you're willing to put in for it.

I on the other hand am stuck in no mans land with 8 points. I may never draw the premium limited entry tag I'm putting in for in my life time. The AR301 is not an option for me with this many points. After putting in for 18 of the last 20 years and not drawing once, I should be the one complaining.

I don't begrudge the guy who has drawn 3 out or 4 years though. I've chosen my road and it is a tough one that may never work out for me. For others that have already drawn it gives great opportunity to do so again. Why would you begrudge them that chance with much lower odds of success? It's not taking away your chances or hunting the animals you are putting in for.

My question is, if it's so unfair why don't you put in for it? If archery hunting on these limited entry units is 100% successful, why aren't you in favor of hunting then?

In your heart you know that archery hunting is much more difficult. It's much more work and you are not guaranteed that monster bull. That's why you or I won't drop our points and go for it.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[10r]

I have no problem with harvest based tag allocation. But to think that we'll get the first year in is not realistic. This round of meetings is hunt strategy only. Permit numbers are not even on the agenda. After permit #'s come out in the spring I think the archery huters will still be smellin pretty good. Nobody is trying to screw archers. But there are a couple changes needed. Bring your bonus points to the table. When there is some bonus points and waiting periods in place things will move forward much quiker than a block of 300 tags that no region wants and that nobody wants on "thier" unit. It's all perception but its still an issue that is holding us back.

 

[c3]

Perception is the issue for sure! You are completely correct that things can not go to the other extreme in one year....

But how do we get people to see that they will have more opportunity if there are 5 times as many archery permits one way or the other on these limited entry units.

I think most people have resigned the fact that the AR301 is over. Now lets move on and see how to show that there can be hundereds of archers on each of the limited entry units and that the harvest will be similar to what we have now with axillary permits where people end up taking their bull with a rifle in the end.

This pulls thousands if not 10,000 people out of the rifle limited entry draws. It will take hundereds of permits issued to do this though. Ten here and ten there will not get people to burn their 20 years worth of points on an iffy bowhunt.

If there are enough permits so that people can see them selves hunting 5 or 8 times in their life, they will go for it. If it's still just a once in a lifetime hunt, no one will switch over and burn their points.

John, how can we work together to show this to both rifle hunters and to the RAC's?

We can agree to disagree on waiting periods and bonus points for these hunts, but for continuity and a single objective being brought forward, I think most are willing to go with you on this one.

As someone not privy to many of the behind the scenes talk, I'd like to see more education of all parties involved. You may not find that very necessary, but after some of the conversations ElkSlayer has had with the chairmen of the RAC's, I think it's a worthwhile effort. They get it perfectly when presented in a positive light.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[wileywapati]

Huntnfool thanks for the reply you are making my point
for me. If I have five or six points and know it is probably going to take me another 10-15 years why the heck would I wait
20 something years to draw this tag and then take my chance with a bow at a whopping 15% success rate. Then the problem compounds when I have to pick a unit, what if it is the same unit you have
been applying for for 20 something years?

I disagree about most people drawing this tag being on waiting periods I am sure a bunch fit that category but I would bet that most people that draw this tag are Bowhunters that hunt spike units and see big bulls every year and have to let them walk.

All loosing the AR-301 hunt will accomplish is loosing revenue, and opportunity. I would also caution all bowhunters
thinking the split will work to do your homework with odds and
tag numbers before you support this in any way. Supporting this split will bring us to the point the any weapon hunters are at now.

When wildlife and hunting changes are made it is usually due to the following reasons.

1 Biologically loss of habitat, drought or substaintualy under management objectives

2 Public safety self explainatory residential encroachment

3 financially

All the AR-301 does is generate a huge amount of revenue
while supplying a better than once in a lifetime opportunity
to hunt mature bull elk & reduces the odds for any weapon hunters

G

 

[10r]

There are only six thousand archery elk hunters in utah the last several years.
The 301 has 1200 aplicants and there are several hundred more for the other limited entry elk tags. To think that we can force people into archery is a stretch because they can all buy over the counter tags now and only 6000 people are. If we had 10,000 tags, everyone would draw in two years and the tags would go unfilled and the dwr would give them back to the rifle guys and we would be out of luck. Once we have the archery opportunity on all of the units, and that should 50 tags on a couple of them, the harvest will show that archers out there with general season archers don't kill much and that they can increase tags within the units and not worry that all 300 will go to the same unit. They will have alot better handle on things and I feel confident that things will go our way.
Remember, these are just proposals and that things tend to evolve through the rac and board. If every one shows up to these meetings and sticks up for archery we'll be fine, regardless of unit splits and harvest %. John Bair

 

[c3]

The big issue is there are 35,000 people with elk points. There are only ever 5500 people on waiting periods.

The people on waiting periods are insignificant relatively speaking to those of us with some points who've never drawn.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[Deerlove]

We archery elk hunters are between a rock and a hard place. Do we give up on the AR301? Do we try to keep it around and increase the units and # of tags? Or do we push for these tags and a ADDITIONAL tags put into the draw? I say we keep the AR 301 UNLESS were guaranteed X amount of tags in the draws. If we go the the draw we need to put the HARVEST ratio the 1st priority to show that EVERYBODY wins. EXample more tags sold equals more $ and less draw pressure (odds)with MINIMAL impact.
Give out 1000 plus tags state wide do away with the cow tags and make it possible for us to hunt Quality hunts more than once in our lifetime. Russ For us to GIVE UP tags for a couple years to hope we get them back is foolish.

 

[BlackTimber]

I see the DWR doing the same thing with this percentage split as they did with the AR-301 original tag numbers.
We tried to get 500 tags. The board aproved the hunt and then in on swift motion reduced the tags to 250 without even hearing the peoples voice.
They will do the same thing, make a straight split and then if we are lucky in 5 years they will add another 100 tags over the units.
How can the DWR do a harvest % split when they print flagrant lies about the harvest?!
I'm all for fairness here. And I would like to see the DWR treat archers as fair as everyone else. I just don't see it happening!?
And if the DWR is going to do away with the auxillary tags then why can't they turn them over (in addition) into the archery program, they are achery permits anyway?

 

[Cass]

I for one think the Ar-301 should stay.
My dad had that tag and so'd his brother.
One of the Funnest Hunts I'v been on in years.
It's a blast.
plus the chances were what? 1-8 last year.
Better the LE by a lot!



-Cass

 

[nontyp]

I attended the rac meeting for northern Utah and this was talked about and voted on. They voted not to due away with this hunt, but to make it just like any other limited hunt. This means you will need bounus points and when you draw all points will be used. This was the vote for northern rac, weather or not it turns out to be like this or not is up to the main vote.
It would be a shame to see it change in any way than the way it is know. The also wanted to due away with the ML 300.