Are you a Hunter or a Shooter?

smarba

Active Member
Messages
557
Admittedly, this was cut & pasted from an Eastman's email.

Long read, but food for thought.
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The evolution of hunting and its equipment is inevitable. New gear, gadgets and doo-dads come out all the time; each one promising to make you a better hunter, more accurate shot, or whatever. So it stands to reason that with the advent of more advanced equipment in the hunting world (we're talking rifles and optics here), people will begin to experiment with the extreme outer limits of their performance. It's human nature to, see what this baby can do ? we can't help it.

With over a decade of war and advancement in weapons platforms behind us, it seems we are experiencing the carryover into the hunting world. Hunters seem to not want to hunt, they want to shoot ? they want to be a sniper. If by being a sniper they want to be a more accurate shot that's great, but if by wanting to be a sniper they want to harvest game at extreme ranges ? well that's for you to decide.

I have a friend, Chris who is a sniper team leader in the United States Army, and an avid hunter. He summed it up well one day when we were discussing this very topic.

He asked me, ?Do you know the difference between hunters and snipers??

I had a pretty good idea where he was going with it but asked him to explain more.

He continued, ?Hunters have to be more accurate than snipers. As a sniper I only have to hit a target and he's out of the battle, as a hunter I must cleanly kill with each and every round.? When you sit back and think about that, it makes total sense.

He went on to further elaborate, ?I think we are on the precipice of a paradigm shift in the hunting community and I am not here to legislate morality. Just remember, each and every round you fire at a game animal is on you. As such, don't be surprised when your decision to shoot is brought into question by your peers.? Now there's some heavy thinking.

As we all know a poorly hit animal can go a very long ways and in some cases are unrecoverable. So why as ethical hunters would we push the envelope and exponentially increase the wounding/loss odds by extending our range on animals? Has the result of a hunt become more important than the pursuit? Is having bone more important than memories?

The Boone and Crockett Club recently released a position statement on the issue of long-range shooting and it states, ?Regardless of these capabilities, sportsmen have historically held themselves to an ethical standard of not taking excessively long or risky shots at the big game animals they pursue. New shooting technologies now being developed and promoted for use in hunting are encouraging hunters to shoot at substantially increased distances. These new technologies, while not illegal, are tempting hunters into taking longer and longer shots, which is raising significant ethical questions, including those of fair chase and intent.?

The club goes on to further explain that. ??long-range shooting takes unfair advantage of the game animal, effectively eliminates the natural capacity of an animal to use its senses and instincts to detect danger, and demeans the hunter/prey relationship in a way that diminishes the importance and relevance of the animal and the hunt? If the intent of the individual is to test equipment and determine how far one can shoot to hit a live target and if there is no motivation to risk engagement with the animal being hunted, this practice is not hunting and should not be accorded the same status as hunting.?

So there you have it. Are you a hunter, or are you a shooter?
 
I read this yesterday and enjoyed it. I think this could be said for a lot of archers today and not just long range gun hunters. The appreciation of the hunt is being lost as well a lot of wounded animals.

I love long range shooting, but steel on the bench is not the same as hunting in the field. I know there are some guys that can hit aspirin at 100 with a bow and 800-yards is a chip shot on the range but too far for me in the field.
 
I am a hunter. It's one of the reasons I have NOT filled a tag the last couple I drew,no clear shot within practicable range.
I see the shooters all the time. I'm one at the range too.
But the number who can consistantly hit a larger target in adverse positions and situations for hunting and make the shot is not what you would think......
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-14 AT 11:29AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-14 AT 11:28?AM (MST)



I thought it was a juvenile attempt to take a shot at people the author obviously knows nothing about. Had he done 5 minutes worth of research he would know the majority of those shooting 500+ yards are shooting hundreds more rounds/year than the average weekend hack that shoots half a box @ 100 the week before a hunt.
Had the article been about all hunters not taking the time to be proficient, not taking the time to assess the shot before taking it, I would have been impressed but that wasn't the case.
 
I agree that this is just as pertinent for bowhunting.

WapitiBob: I value your insight, but perhaps your home state is different than NM LOL. I've personally witnessed guys taking off hand shots at running oryx 400+ yards, just to rattle off an example.

I don't believe the MAJORITY of guys taking long shots have put time in at the range.

Intent wasn't to call anyone out, and the article didn't mention any particular distance that was the taboo line, but just to make folks think.

Carl
 
Hunter, without a doubt. I live for the hunt. Long range shooting is not for me. May be the reason my walls arent adorned with many antlers. I've passed on "chip shots" before because it didnt feel right and worked in for a better shot.
 
I'm not very efficient at either--what little success I've had I attribute to a little bit of luck and a whole lot of persistence...

Love the hunt.
 
Me and My friends shoot LD and some years we spend more in ammo then on Tags, But Long Distance isn't for everyone. We do shoot a lot of steel to get ready to make the shot count when called to do so. Last 2 elk taken by me was at 80 yds with a rifle setup to shoot over a 1000 yds. So not every animal is taken at LD.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
??long-range shooting takes unfair advantage of the game animal, effectively eliminates the natural capacity of an animal to use its senses and instincts to detect danger, and demeans the hunter/prey relationship in a way that diminishes the importance and relevance of the animal and the hunt? "

This is why I am hesitant about long range shots. There are undoubtedly people who can shoot tighter groups at 800 yards than I can at 200-300 yards, so the actual shot would not be unethical in my opinion. Heck there are people who could shoot tighter archery groups at 100 yards than I can at 50 yards.

It's those long range rifle shots that get me thinking. There is no way for the animal to know you are there regardless of how clumsy or noisy you travel. I understand ethics are subjective and those long shot are legal. I guess each hunter has to ask himself/herself whether or not it's fair to the animal to take that shot regardless of his/her proficiency at that range.
 
On my last hunt I saw several great bucks between 500-800 plus yards these deer were often unaware of my presence and were deer being deer (feeding bedding etc.). had I had a rifle capable of shooting them were I saw them I would have easily killed the biggest deer of my life...but I was hunting with a front stuffer and had to get much closer. I could see how stretching effective range could turn a hunt into a shoot. As I had to belly crawl the last hundred yards on deer that failed to do their part (come closer to me:)) It would have been too easy to skip the belly crawling and prop out the bipod, range, dial, squeeze, and gut from 600 yds. That being said I have more respect for hunters who know what they are doing and can effectively and ethically shoot at longer range than those who do but have no business doing so.
 
I am with Bob on this.

This article is warm and fuzzy, but, does that mean a guy that is not passionate about hunting and maybe goes once a year. He I proficient out to 200 yards so he is a "good guy" for staying within 200 yards.

Guy #2 is passionate about hunting. Practices, buys good equipment, learns how to use it, spends time in field should be constricted to 200 yard shots also??

Back when everyone had a lever action 30-30, a hundred yard shot was about the limit.

This is just one more angle to the argument.

Nothing wrong with everyone doing an ethics check every once in awhile.

Bottom line, is that you like lots of things in life, you need to stay within your limitations. You need to know your limitations.
 
+1 Paul & Bob
I was a hunter before I was a shooter! As with most all of the over 40 crowd here...

Spent way more time and money learning to be a shooter!

IMO...Being the hunter is way rewarding.

Good read Carl! Esp..for the youth.
 
I like to think I'm both. Why does it have to be an either or proposition? Put them together and there are lots of advantages.

I sent that B&C position statement to a friend and this is what he wrote back,

Lets see Boone & Crockett Club or SCI for that matter; the numerical valuation of what was an animate life into an object for the purposes of competition between gentlemen/ sportsmen as to who is the top "ethical fair chase hunter". . . I think B&C, SCI, P&Y,BASS should just move on down the road and keep their comments to themselves until they have swept out their own dirt.
Somewhere Between Ignorance & Arrogance,


MT_Grizz.jpg
 
Good food for thought. I would say that I am a hunter and agree with B&C on this one. The statement below is what brings into question long range shooting at game even for people who are more capable at 800 yards than your average weekend warrior is at 100 yards.

??long-range shooting takes unfair advantage of the game animal, effectively eliminates the natural capacity of an animal to use its senses and instincts to detect danger, and demeans the hunter/prey relationship in a way that diminishes the importance and relevance of the animal and the hunt?"
 
>I agree that this is just
>as pertinent for bowhunting.
>
>WapitiBob: I value your insight, but
>perhaps your home state is
>different than NM LOL.
>I've personally witnessed guys taking
>off hand shots at running
>oryx 400+ yards, just to
>rattle off an example.
>
>I don't believe the MAJORITY of
>guys taking long shots have
>put time in at the
>range.
>
>Intent wasn't to call anyone out,
>and the article didn't mention
>any particular distance that was
>the taboo line, but just
>to make folks think.
>
>Carl

I agree with all of this Carl. It does remind people to think and to remember to keep shots at distances they are proficient.
 
When you see a deer do you try to be invisible till you kill it or do you jump up and down till he sees you so it's "fair"?
Doesn't camo, tree stands, blinds, scent eliminator, etc eliminate their senses?
 
I had a muzzleloader tag this year. I used camo, scent eliminator, blinds, wind checkers and a brain that has way more computing power than his, And yet I still got beat a couple times by a wise old buck and his senses. Even though I worked my tail off and came out empty handed, it's a "hunt" I'll never forget. Right now I'm thinking what a different experience it would have been if I had simply drove my wheeler to the adjacent ridge and picked him off at a thousand yards. Yeah I'd probably have a nice rack in my garage but not much of a story to go with it.
 
You can pretty much jump up and down all you want at 800 yards and get away with it. Try that at 200 or even 400 yards and it will be a different story.
Camo: Helps a little but not a bunch when you are in close.
Tree stands: I never have used one so I wouldn't know.
Blinds: I never have used one so I wouldn't know.
Scent eliminators: I never have used them, but I doubt they help much at all. Just a good marketing ploy to make money.

Just use your "hunting" skills. Plan your stalk according to the wind, use terrain features to stay out of sight, and stalk in as close as possible. If you do this, then deep down you will know you are a hunter and overcame your quarry's senses.

Or spend a ton of money on a custom gun, practice a lot at the range and smoke that animal from two canyons away. You made a good shot, but I would argue that it was not much of a hunt.
 

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