Arizona draw changes

[WapitiBob]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-14 AT 05:30PM (MST)[p]
A few of us have been discussing these for a few months now.

R... 114: Note that only HALF the NR tag allotment will be available in the Bonus Pass draw. If you're a NR sitting on dbl digit points, your wait is about to get a whole lot longer. If you're getting in the game now, things will be a little brighter.


They have been published in the meeting minutes so here you go:


* * * * *

9. Request to approve the Article 1 Definitions and General Provisions Five-year Rule Review
Report, for Submission to the Governor's Regulatory Review Council (G.R.R.C.).

Presenter: Amber Munig, Big Game Management Supervisor

Ms. Munig provided a PowerPoint presentation to the Commission on the Five-year Rule
Review Report for Article 1 regarding definitions and general provisions, for submission to
G.R.R.C. A.R.S. ? 41-1056 requires each state agency to review all of its rules at least once
every five years. The Article 1 Five-year Rule Review Report is due to G.R.R.C. by January 31,
2014. The Department presented an overview of the team's recommendations to the
Commission at the December 6, 2013 Commission Meeting. The Commission provided input,
which has been incorporated into the Department's recommendations.


PLEASE NOTE ---> If approved by the Commission, the Department will submit the report to G.R.R.C. for their
review. Submission of this report will not change any of the Article 1 rules; however, if the
Department fails to submit the report by the established due date, the Commission?s Article 1
rules will expire and no longer be in effect or enforceable. In addition to the review criteria
prescribed under A.R.S. ?41-1056, the Article 1 rule review team considered internal and external comments received during the previous five years, and processes that have changed
since the last rulemaking.

For all rules, the team recommends amendments designed to ensure consistency between
Commission rules, Department processes, rule language/formatting, and to reduce the regulatory
burden where possible. In addition, the team proposes the following substantive amendments:


R12-4-101. Definitions

. Define the terms ?bobcat seal? and "rooster" to clarify terms referenced in Commission
Order and increase consistency between rules and remove "by a particular hunt number"
from the definition of "hunt area" to address inholdings.


R12-4-104. Application Procedures for Issuance of Hunt Permit-tags by Drawing and Purchase
of Bonus Points

. Enable the Department to issue a license and award a bonus point when the payment
submitted is less than required, but covers application/license fees to address customer
comments received by the Department
. Prohibit a person who reached the established bag limit from applying for/purchasing
another hunt permit-tag during the same calendar year to increase consistency between
rules
. Stating overpayments of $1 or less will not be refunded and are considered a donation to
the Game and Fish Fund; the refund processing costs are greater than the a refund
. Define ?Department error? as it applies to a rejected application and clarify when the
Department may issue a hunt permit-tag or award a bonus point in order to correct the
error to address customer comments received by the Department.


R12-4-106. Licensing Time-frames

. Add a time-frame for the use drugs on wildlife authorization, increase substantive review
time-frames for licenses that require an inspection, and allow the Department to deny an
incomplete license application when the information demonstrates the applicant is not
eligible for the license.


R12-4-107. Bonus Point System

. Replace the term "season" with "computer draw" to clarify bonus point application
requirements
. Enable the Department to issue a license and award a bonus/loyalty point (as applicable)
when the payment submitted is less than required, but covers application/license fees to
address customer comments received by the Department
. Enable the Department to remove any bonus point fraudulently obtained to increase
consistency between Commission rules
. Simplify the military member/bonus point reinstatement process to provide better
customer service to address customer comments received by the Department.


R12-4-108. Management Unit Boundaries

. Update game management units to provide additional clarity and maintain recreational
opportunities for the public; both hunters and outdoor recreationists to address April 2013
Commission action item.


R12-4-110. Posting and Access to State Land

. Replace ?licensed hunters and fishermen? with ?persons legally taking wildlife? to
address persons exempt from obtaining a license



. Indicate a license holder who is hunting, fishing, or trapping on state land shall not
operate motor vehicles off-road or on roads that are closed to the public, except to pick
up lawfully taken big game animals to increase consistency between Commission rules.


R12-4-114. Issuance of Nonpermit-tags and Hunt Permit-tags

. Remove descriptive language relating to tag features to provide the Department greater
flexibility in procuring nonpermit and hunt permit-tags

. Ensure at least one tag is available in the bonus point pass to provide a chance for
maximum bonus point applicants to be drawn to address customer comments received by
the Department.

Allow a person to possess the same number of hunt permit-tags as allowed for the bag
limit of that specific genus to address customer comments received by the Department.

. Prohibit a person who reached the bag limit for a specific genus from applying for a hunt
permit-tag or purchasing a nonpermit-tag during the same calendar year to increase
consistency between Commission rules

. Allow only 50% of the hunt permit-tags available to nonresidents to be issued in the
bonus pass of the draw. These changes are in response to customer comments received by
the Department

. Remove the 10% nonresident cap for javelina by hunt number to increase the odds for a
nonresident to draw a tag, provided the increase does not affect resident participation or
surpass the nonresident cap under A.R.S. ? 17-332(A).


R12-4-115. Supplemental Hunts and Hunter Pool

. Define ?companion tags? and allow Department to issue tags when the Commission
establishes the associated Commission Order to increase efficiency.


R12-4-116. Reward Payments

. Increase reward value for antelope, bald eagles, bighorn sheep, buffalo, elk, and any
wildlife listed as endangered or threatened wildlife from $350 to $450 and the reward
value for bear, deer, javelina, mountain lion, and turkey from $250 to $350. Reward
amounts were established in 1991 and have not changed since then.


The Commission discussed the tag surrender concept and was in consensus that this could
potentially be part of an enhanced application process through stage two of the license
simplification process. The Commission would like to see the tag surrender concept move
forward quickly, hopefully by next year this time, and also make sure it doesn't get bogged down
and delayed in the general rulemaking cycle.


Director Voyles suggested that the authority for the Commission to have a tag surrender concept
could be created in the rulemaking process to allow the Commission to exercise their authority
within the fee structure. The Department needs to have some discussion and do some analytics
on the tag surrender concept as it relates to licensing and services, and bring that back to the
Commission.



Jennifer Stewart, Rules and Risk Branch Chief, reminded the Commission that a tag surrender
concept could be added later as we move through the Article 1 rulemaking process, and further
recommended that the tag surrender concept not be added to the Article 1 report at this time.


The Commission was in consensus.

The Commission discussed and was in consensus to raise the reward value for all big game and bald eagles to $500 across the board (R12-4-116. Reward Payments).

The Commission discussed a waiting period for a person that has been drawn for big game and were not in agreement.

Chairman Harris and Commissioner Mansell were not in favor of any waiting period except for a one year waiting period for youth only.


Commissioner Davis was in favor of a one year waiting period for bull elk and a one year
waiting period for youth, as well as removal of the 10% cap for nonresident javelina.


Motion: Davis moved and Madden seconded THAT THE COMMISSION VOTE TO DIRECT
THE DEPARTMENT TO BRING FORWARD A RULE PACKAGE THAT INCLUDES A
ONE YEAR WAIT ON BULL ELK AND A ONE YEAR WAIT ON YOUTH AND A
LIFTING OF THE NONRESIDENT CAP FOR JAVELINA.


Vote: Aye - Davis, Madden

Nay - Harris, Mansell

Failed 2 to 2


Motion: Harris moved and Mansell seconded THAT THE COMMISSION VOTE TO LIFT
THE NONRESIDENT CAP FOR JAVELINA AND TO APPROVE A ONE YEAR WAITING
PERIOD FOR YOUTH ONLY.

Commissioner Davis clarified with Chairman Harris that the motion was for the Department to bring back some language and evaluation of the impact of a potential one year waiting period for youth only, and that this was for the report only and not a determination to implement at this point.


Vote: Unanimous

4 to 0

Motion: Mansell moved and Madden seconded THAT THE COMMISSION VOTE TO
APPROVE THE ARTICLE 1 FIVE-YEAR REVIEW REPORT FOR SUBMISSION TO THE
GOVERNOR'S REGULATORY REVIEW COUNCIL AS PRESENTED AND DISCUSSED.

Vote: Unanimous

4 to 0

* * * * *

 

[4blade]

Thanks WB, great info as always

 

[sagebrush]

". Ensure at least one tag is available in the bonus point pass to provide a chance for maximum bonus point applicants to be drawn to address customer comments received by the Department."

I'm not so sure I like that change. That would mean all units with one sheep tag would go in the bonus point round and not in the random draw.

 

[Zim]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-14 AT 05:05AM (MST)[p]Anyone know if this passed would it affect this year's draw, or beginning next years? This would affect us greatly either way. We have 12 points and should have drawn unit 1 this year, but passed in favor of NM. Applied for unit 9 to get a point.

Glad we burned our deer points for the Kaibab last year.

Overall I think this new regulation is good, and corrects an unintended result of the 20 pass rule, which came into affect long after all us double digit guys bought in. So it is still fair in my opinion. Looks like it will extend our wait for unit 1 though.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club

 

[vmcfadden]

I don't like it. Any Hunt with less than 4 tags to NR will eliminate hunting with a friend. This will make those hunts only for the solo hunter.

 

[WapitiBob]

Zim, public meetings won't be till Jan of 2015, changes would be for 2016.

 

[couesmagnet]

This is great news for the newer applicants that are non residents. Arizona is facing a drop in applicants in the future non resident wise due to the lack of opp. new non residents have with regards to the draw. Now that a non resident has a chance to draw on his first year, i think that this will curtail a lot of lost revenue by increasing the newbie's chances of drawing instead of having to wait 15 to 20 years to even have a chance of drawing.

 

[ducksbucksandbulls]

>LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-14
>AT 05:05?AM (MST)
>
>Anyone know if this passed would
>it affect this year's draw,
>or beginning next years?
>This would affect us greatly
>either way. We have
>12 points and should have
>drawn unit 1 this year,
>but passed in favor of
>NM. Applied for unit
>9 to get a point.
>
>
>Glad we burned our deer points
>for the Kaibab last year.
>mIGHT GET LUCKY AND DRAW UNIT 9..
pUT 9 FIRST AND 1 SECOND CHOICE...
>
>Overall I think this new regulation
>is good, and corrects an
>unintended result of the 20
>pass rule, which came into
>affect long after all us
>double digit guys bought in.
> So it is still
>fair in my opinion.
>Looks like it will extend
>our wait for unit 1
>though.
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>NRA, UWC & DP Hate
>Club

 

[azbiggame]

long over do,rules change,for the Premium Tags ... changing their so called Bonus Point draw system that has become a Preference Point draw system,to a modified bonus point draw.Much like what Utah has.Az. has finally figured out,THEY are loosing much needed revenue,under Todays draw system ... Bruce & SilverGrand

 

[vmcfadden]

>This is great news for the
>newer applicants that are non
>residents. Arizona is facing a
>drop in applicants in the
>future non resident wise due
>to the lack of opp.
>new non residents have with
>regards to the draw. Now
>that a non resident has
>a chance to draw on
>his first year, i think
>that this will curtail a
>lot of lost revenue by
>increasing the newbie's chances of
>drawing instead of having to
>wait 15 to 20 years
>to even have a chance
>of drawing.

I agree with the apps going up for a few years. After about ten years when it no longer takes 15 to 20 years it takes 25 to 30 years to get a guaranteed tag you'll see the apps decrease significantly. With only a 5% of tags getting drawn early that means only 5% max point holders get eliminated. The odds of getting an under max draw will be sad for any rut hunts and at the cost of major point creep.

 

[nontypical]

With 16 nr pts for deer, this sounds like a hose job for me. Play the game for 16 years for nothing. I guess I should have known it was coming.

 

[WapitiBob]

I understand both sides of the issue and I doubt the dept took the decision lightly. My question is, what would you have them do?

In 2013 There were 4 tags for early rifle and 66 early archery in the 1-2 pass, that a NR could draw. Five years from now those numbers will be zero. They had to do something. If you guys can think of a better plan let's discuss it. This is a done deal without something better....

 

[buckhorn]

>With 16 nr pts for deer,
>this sounds like a hose
>job for me. Play the
>game for 16 years for
>nothing. I guess I should
>have known it was coming.
>

Is 16 the max including loyalty and hunter ed?

 

[LIK2HNT]

Like Nontypical said, it is a hose job for those of us sitting at one under or at max that had planned for many years. After buying a license year after year. I do not have any answer for AZ financial short comes. Maybe not put it into effect until a latter date (3 to 5 years)allowing upper point holders to re-strategies and burn their points. It sucks having spent all these years planning and having a great tag almost in your hands to watch it vanish.

Bill

 

[DonMartin]

Think it through fellas and see if you can build a better mousetrap for our G&F Commission.

Otherwise....

This proposal I think is a two edged sword and a damned slippery slope.

I think those that have been in the system for over a decade or longer are looking at a bad deal by the new proposal.

Newbies, yep this is going to be a God send for them.

Mr. Bill is right on and I tend to agree with his post.

I kinda liked the idea of taking a tag out of the NR pool--assuming that NR's would draw, and set it aside and allow only NR's with any amount of points to put in.

That way everyone, from first to last in the bonus point pool would have a shot at some premium tags.

Case in point, AZ Strip, Unit 13B General.

70 tags means NR will probably get at least 7 tags (10%) since they are so heavily overloaded in the max bonus point pool.

So take one tag out and set it aside for every NR, no matter how many bonus points they have, to apply for it.

Then award the other 6 NR tags the regular way. That way the guys who have been faithful for 17 years still get the majority of the NR tags, while all NR's have a CHANCE to draw a tag!

Not sure if that works with all species (for sure not sheep) but its a thought...

Just thinking guys...

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters

 

[ElmerFudd]

I have 17 total points, max. I was hoping to take advantage of the unintended consequence of the upping the max point draw to 20% making all the nonresident strip tags exclusive to my pool, but looks like that will only be one more year or so..... oh well. Actually, about half the nonresident quota was going to the top pool before that. So it's really no different than the way it was when high points nonresident applicants started. You had to figure they the would do somehing as the system really intends most of the tags to applicants of all point levels. I wanted to draw first, but congratulations to those who got lucky and were able to take advsntage! Still one more shot......

 

[Zim]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-14 AT 01:24PM (MST)[p]>I have 17 total points, max.
>I was hoping to take
>advantage of the unintended consequence
>of the upping the max
>point draw to 20% making
>all the nonresident strip tags
>exclusive to my pool, but
>looks like that will only
>be one more year or
>so..... oh well. Actually, about
>half the nonresident quota was
>going to the top pool
>before that. So it's really
>no different than the way
>it was when high points
>nonresident applicants started. You had
>to figure they the would
>do somehing as the system
>really intends most of the
>tags to applicants of all
>point levels. I wanted to
>draw first, but congratulations to
>those who got lucky and
>were able to take advsntage!
>Still one more shot......

I kind of agree it's not much different from when all the top point holders started applying. They are actually still benefiting from the 50% new formula compared to the system they bought into originally. I think this is a good change for everyone in the long run. It personally hurts my elk situation for next year, but I still think it's a good change. I really wish states would not play around with these point systems like they do. Constantly changing one thing or another. Most are money driven, but not in this case with Arizona. I think they have always treated NR's well. Overall NR quota should not be changed much here.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club

 

[ElmerFudd]

Problem is that there is no draw system that will not leave lots of dissatisfied applicants for high demand tags. When enough dissatisfied people complain loudly enough, the game department will change things. It is inevitable. If no points systems were ever established, at least you wouldn't have bad feelings about losing the entitlement of buying into the system. Too late for that

 

[JRABQ]

Well-said Fudd.

 

[Repaupo]

Why are non-residents being treated differently than residents in the proposal ? Why not change the system for everyone ?
Let me guess....
Non-Residents now are drawing 10% of the premium tags.
IMHO,
More residents will draw tags under this system, not non residents.

 

[sagebrush]

Repaupo - You are right. But more non-residents will have a chance to draw a tag than previously. I guess they would rather have a chance at fewer tags than no chance at all. I'm still bummed that all the sheep tags in the 1 tag units will go in the bonus pass. That means the only chance I have to draw is in the more than one tag units in the random draw with the 1,000's of non-residents.

 

[ElmerFudd]

I don't see any difference in the total tags taken by nonresidents. It will allow for more resident maximum point tags at the expense of a few less resident second pass tags. The 10% nonresident quote is a hard limit and will be filled in either pass for all the higher demand hunts. Yes, fewer one tag hints will escape to the second pass as more max points residents will take them before the 20% first pass fills. Some one tag hunts will still likely escape the first pass.

 

[LIK2HNT]

ElmerFudd
I a may be wrong but I think you are way off. It would take someone like HornedToad to run the numbers but I think that for the top hunts the non-residents will never reach their 10% of the tags as they do now. A lot of the high demand deer hunts are non-resident point heavy. Take for example a high demand hunt that might have 14 tags that meet the NR 10%, those tags have gone in the 20% pass with the top point holders. Now only 7 tags will go to top point holders. The other 7 will be absorbed in the random draw (which most likely has a hell of a lot more resident applicants). In the end I would be surprised if even 10 tags get given to non residents. By my math that means the non resident will lose out more ways than one.

Bill

 

[piper]

I Have 18 nonresident elk points and am really getting sick of this stuff, sounds like a screwing for me, but what else is new?

If the state was decent they would give a flat 10% of tags to nonresidents, not this up to and no more crap, what a mess that is, and that's why the 20% was such a problem anyway.

Oh well I'm kind of getting sick of trying to get tags anyway, the whole thing is becoming an expensive joke, I actually feel that I will cut my losses one of these years and just quit.

 

[ElmerFudd]

Yes, it is sort of a guess. AZ draw odds are really tough to figure. But the way I was thinking is that with the 20% first pass and 10% nonresident quota, if the ratio of nonresidents to residents in the top pool is about 50%, the odds are that the 19% cap will be met in the first pass. The higher the ratio, the higher the probability. Anyway, if half the nonresident cap goes to the next round.... 5% of original 10% cap is left. Residents will get 15% of the original quota in the first pass, leaving 85% to the second pass. If the ratio of nonresidents to residents is greater than 5:85 (6% nonresident) and the ratios at each point level are close.... the nonresident cap will likely fill. I'm thinking that the higher you go on the point scale, the higher the nonresident ratio is. I know that isn't advanced statistics, just how I was looking at it. I'm thinking it is almost certain that the 10% nonresident cap will fill on all the higher demand hunts.

 

[DonMartin]

Piper, I don't have the bonus point pool numbers for resident and NR elk hunters but if you've got 18 points, I think you can probably draw a premium tag.

I'm getting ready to do a one day NR Supplemental class here in Kingman and I will be getting that information from the Department.

One of the things we do in that class is to show the bonus points of both resident and NR's so you can see where you are.

I've predicted correctly several times to folks in our class who based upon where they were in the bonus point pool, that were going to draw in a particular unit.

Has to do with the 20% bonus pass and how it works.

I think you would be very silly to just give up on drawing a premium elk tag with that many points.

Several years ago I told a couple of my NR friends who had I think had 18 bonus points to put in for the early rifle hunt in Unit 23N. That is a great hunt and a favorite unit of mine.

I told them they would draw and to get ready for a tag.

Sure enough, they got tags 1 and 2 for the 20 permit hunt as they were at the top of the pool of those who applied for that hunt.
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos2/3921randy_hopp_23n_9_x_6_bull_2011.jpg
Randy Hopp, Newburg Oregon
Dave Bruns, Arizona Wildlife Outfitters guide

http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos2/535randy_hopp_antlers_23n_2011.jpg
Randy's antlers

I'll have the info on the draw in a few weeks and I'll be glad to tell you where you are in the pool.

Got to believe though you are very close...

Good luck!

Don Martin
Chief Instructor
Arizona Hunter Education
Region III

 

[WapitiBob]

Every early archery hunt except one and every early rifle hunt will hit the 5% cap in the 20% pass. As Elmer noted, residents will get an additional 5% in that Bonus Pass.

For unit 1 archery, had this been in place for 2013, residents would have drawn 53 tags and nr 17 tags (+- rounding) in the bonus pass.
The 1-2 pass would then have 280 tags remaining, with 3577 resident 1-2 apps, and 838 nr 1-2 apps, and only 18 of those 280 tags could go to NR.

 

[Zim]

>Every early archery hunt except one
>and every early rifle hunt
>will hit the 5% cap
>in the 20% pass. As
>Elmer noted, residents will get
>an additional 5% in that
>Bonus Pass.
>
>For unit 1 archery, had this
>been in place for 2013,
>residents would have drawn 53
>tags and nr 17 tags
>(+- rounding) in the bonus
>pass.
>The 1-2 pass would then have
>280 tags remaining, with 3577
>resident 1-2 apps, and 838
>nr 1-2 apps, and only
>18 of those 280 tags
>could go to NR.

WB,
My buddy and I will be applying for unit 1 NR archery next year with 13 points. I am confused and wondering what our chances may be. Any idea? Thx

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club

 

[WapitiBob]

The proposed changes won't take affect until 2016 so you may be fine. It all depends on how the public reacts as the process moves forward.

 

[Zim]

OK that is nice everyone will have next year to make pre-adjustments. I think the change will be good in the end.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club

 

[sirroyal]

>I Have 18 nonresident elk points
>and am really getting sick
>of this stuff, sounds
>like a screwing for me,
>but what else is new?
>
>
>If the state was decent they
>would give a flat 10%
>of tags to nonresidents,
>not this up to
>and no more crap, what
>a mess that is, and
>that's why the 20% was
>such a problem anyway.
>
>Oh well I'm kind of getting
>sick of trying to get
>tags anyway, the whole thing
>is becoming an expensive joke,
> I actually feel that
>I will cut my losses
>one of these years and
>just quit.


Piper , You had a 170 non-residents with 18 or more points going into the 2014 draw.
Obviously you want an early rifle bull tag. There are 24 available to non residents. 20 points would draw this year in unit 10. That's a 2 year wait for you maybe 3 with point creep under the current system. There has been only a 2 point creep in 10 since 2009.
Now under the new system for non resident thats probably going to double. I'm talking guaranteed draw.

 

[sirroyal]

>I Have 18 nonresident elk points
>and am really getting sick
>of this stuff, sounds
>like a screwing for me,
>but what else is new?
>
>
>If the state was decent they
>would give a flat 10%
>of tags to nonresidents,
>not this up to
>and no more crap, what
>a mess that is, and
>that's why the 20% was
>such a problem anyway.
>
>Oh well I'm kind of getting
>sick of trying to get
>tags anyway, the whole thing
>is becoming an expensive joke,
> I actually feel that
>I will cut my losses
>one of these years and
>just quit.

Piper , obviously your waiting for an early rifle bull tag. You had 170 non-residents with 18 points or more going to the 2014 draw.
There were 24 early premium rifle tags for non residents.
Under the current system you would draw in 2 years maybe 3 because of point creep. There has only been a 2 point creep in unit 10 since 2009.
Under the new system Probably 4 to 6 years to draw. I'm talking guaranteed draw.
Don't give up your tags on the way!!!!

 

[piper]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-14 AT 12:05PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-14 AT 12:03?PM (MST)

Sirroyal, I have been putting in for muzzy and early rifle tags during the last few years, before that I just had bad luck with drawings.
Im getting older and starting to get jaded I guess, I put in for a point this year since I may get a new job, kind of planning on getting a hunter ed point sometime for 2016 (Its a long drive)

Maybe with a little luck change and twenty points I could draw 27 muzzy in 2016? I will have to look into 10 though, as I haven't kept up with the new rule changes.
Thanks to you and Don Martin for the optimistic outlook.

 

[Abiggerfish2fry]

I am kind of confused about the odds now! Now that I am a res what is the % of tags are given to us?


Bigfish

 

[sagebrush]

At least 90% of the tags go to us residents. The first pass of the draw is sorted by number of points then random number and 20% of the tags are allocated to this draw. The second pass of the draw is sorted by random number. When the non-resident cap of 10% is reached for a hunt code, no more non-residents will be issued a tag regardless of their order in the draw. Your first two hunt choices are considered in the first two passes. In the third round, hunt codes 3 through 5 are considered before moving on to the next application. It is possible that residents could draw more than 90% of the tags for any given hunt code depending on the luck of the draw, but in no case will we draw less than 90%.

 

[sirroyal]

>>Every early archery hunt except one
>>and every early rifle hunt
>>will hit the 5% cap
>>in the 20% pass. As
>>Elmer noted, residents will get
>>an additional 5% in that
>>Bonus Pass.
>>
>>For unit 1 archery, had this
>>been in place for 2013,
>>residents would have drawn 53
>>tags and nr 17 tags
>>(+- rounding) in the bonus
>>pass.
>>The 1-2 pass would then have
>>280 tags remaining, with 3577
>>resident 1-2 apps, and 838
>>nr 1-2 apps, and only
>>18 of those 280 tags
>>could go to NR.
>
>WB,
>My buddy and I will be
>applying for unit 1 NR
>archery next year with 13
>points. I am confused
>and wondering what our chances
>may be. Any idea?
> Thx
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>NRA, UWC & DP Hate
>Club

You will draw in bonus pass guaranteed next year. You would have drawn this year if you had applied for this hunt.

 

[bullwhacker]

So your saying theres a chance ?

 

[WapitiBob]

Yea, till the Dept advertises the changes and 5,000 guys come out of the shadows to apply so they don't get stuck.

 

[appleman]

I feel it is terribly unfair to us max point holders who are waiting for the strip. We may never draw after it goes into effect the way I see it and we have been the most faithful for the longest. Don't like them changing the game!!

 

[appleman]

Man---do I totally agree--hose job and they already have our money for sixteen years!!!

 

[abqbw]

This is a tough one. Non residents through the money we pay in license and permit tag fees are not insignificant partners in wildlife resources in AZ. Nonresident license fees paid to obtain bonus points must be a significant percentage of the AZ Game and Fish's budget.

I just sent $570 to AZ for bonus points and hunting licenses for my 3 sons. That's a lot of money to pay in when I don't expect them to draw an Elk tag for another 8 to 10 years each, under the current system. If the system changes I'd probably reconsider sending the money and I'm probably on the high end of willingness to pay.

I've already paid in a good amount building points but when they were youths it was only $20 or $25 each. Now that it's $160 it's a bigger commitment. I always thought it was fair for us non residents to pay quite a bit to support the wildlife of AZ if we want the privilege of hunting it. 10 or 15 years ago the total commitment for a great elk tag for a non-resident could be fairly accurately estimated to be in the range of $2,000 to $3000 by the time the hunting license fees and permit tag fee were paid. While it's a lot of money at least we could be fairly confident that eventually we would draw. Prior to the 20% bonus pass I could always dream of getting lucky and drawing any year (never did) which was extra incentive to keep sending the money. Under the proposed system I'm not sure I would start a youngster out building points in AZ. Multiply me times thousands of nonresidents and AZ would lose a lot of revenue.

Here is what would keep me sending money to AZ: instead of pulling the rug out from under those of us loyal nonresidents that have already invested over $1500 in bonus points, add another 2% of the tags in the 1-2 pass for nonresidents (12% total nonres). Nonresidents that already have points are not harmed, nonresidents that draw keep applying in the future, and new nonresidents would be willing to start applying.

Another solution would to make us pay much higher tag fees when we draw. Instead of making us buy a $160 license fee every year to apply, just make us pay much more when we draw a permit tag. For instance, make a premium elk tag cost $3,000. That's basically what I just paid for the tag I just drew when permit tag fees and the 13 hunting licenses I paid for are added up. That should keep nonresidents applying and make it so a nonresident that gets lucky in the 1-2 pass after a year or two if the proposed change occurs ends up paying the same amount as a nonresident that had been applying for a decade or more under the current system. AZ would still make about the same amount of revenue for each nonresident elk permit and nonresidents would be incentivized to keep applying.

 

[ElmerFudd]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-14 AT 07:02PM (MST)[p]First, the game department can change the draw when they decide to. Points really have no future value. It's buyer beware. I understood that from the start. That is part of why I feel points suck. Second, they upped the first pass max points quota from 10% to 20% for the fall 2005 draw. Before that, nonresidents were getting about half of the cap taken up in that pass. So anyone with more them 11 (counting loyalty and education) points bought in to the system with about the same advantage of max points as is proposed here. I do have max deer points, BTW. Those tags have been exclusive to our pool for the last 9 draws, plus whatever time it takes to implement the changes.... that is something! Consider the viewpoint of those who have been putting in since 2005 with less than max points. They have been donating license and application fees for zero chance

 

[WapitiBob]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-14 AT 09:09PM (MST)[p]What will keep NR sending in their money is making a minimum 5% cap available in the 1-2 pass where the majority of applicants are pooled.

 

[Cozmo8]

I am in the nonresident maxpoint pool for deer and have 17 for elk. Do away with the point system make the strip a once in a lifetime hunt add waiting periods up to 10 years if need be premium elk hunts. My chances of drawing an early rifle elk in unit 1 or 10 just went from 5-6 years to 10-15 years. My chance at a Strip tag went from up to 20 years to probably never. I guess I could just sneak down one year and whack one of those bucks on the Strip without a tag.

 

[buckhorn]

cosmo
I feel your frustration.
Tell me where you live or give me your phone number so we can talk this over.
You sound like your about ready to flip out.
I may be able to help you see the reality of this situation.
buckhorn

 

[excaliber]

Don,
This is exactly what I've been saying online and writing you and many others in the state of AZ since the 20% pool went into effect.
I'm at 12 points now so I'm in the middle. Now I can apply for the hunts I will never ever draw with the old system. Are my odds better? I may be wrong but now I have a chance at that early rifle tag where I didn't before.

I feel sorry for those who were close to max points as they will be getting hosed. Their wait just got a bit longer. AZ was losing money and they saw the light.
>I kinda liked the idea of
>taking a tag out of
>the NR pool--assuming that NR's
>would draw, and set it
>aside and allow only NR's
>with any amount of points
>to put in.
>
>That way everyone, from first to
>last in the bonus point
>pool would have a shot
>at some premium tags.
>
>Case in point, AZ Strip, Unit
>13B General.
>
>70 tags means NR will probably
>get at least 7 tags
>(10%) since they are so
>heavily overloaded in the max
>bonus point pool.
>
>So take one tag out and
>set it aside for every
>NR, no matter how many
>bonus points they have, to
>apply for it.
>
>Then award the other 6 NR
>tags the regular way. That
>way the guys who have
>been faithful for 17 years
>still get the majority of
>the NR tags, while all
>NR's have a CHANCE to
>draw a tag!
>
>Not sure if that works with
>all species (for sure not
>sheep) but its a thought...
>
>
>Just thinking guys...
>
>Don Martin
>Arizona Wildlife Outfitters

 

[ElmerFudd]

So.... Here is the million dollar question. With the deer draw coming up, should a max points holder like me in his early 50's still do 13B or bust or not? If they kept it as is, odds of a tag in 25 years looked pretty good, if they change, it will be more like a 50:50 proposition. Will they change? Sooner or later, change is inevitable. I think I will stay as there are other states to hunt deer in....

 

[hornhunter247]

Fudd if stay in for 13B. Even after this proposed change happens you'll still be in the hunt for the same 10% of the tags. I've always hated the 20% pass as I'd never catch up to the max pool after unfortunately drawing a good tag the year prior to the pass change. I've taken up Coues hunting since then. But good luck on the upcoming draws! You'll get your tag if you keep with it.


I just call em as I see em!

 

[buckmster28]

I just wish when a set of rules is put in place it is stuck too. For those of us who come up with an application strategy for several states designed by the current rules, a change like this screws you. I am not surprised at all and have said that something like this would happen frpm the beginning, as max point holders like myself become fewer in numbers our voice is not as loud anymore. You want to raise revenue give nonresidents a higher percentage of tags! So apply for a hunt for fifteen plus years fly to Arizona for hunter safety purchase a license at a rising cost every year and then have some one apply for and draw your tag the first year and see how you feel about it. If you bought a ticket for $100 to win a house and they told you they were going to sale 300 tickets and then you found out that they sold an additional 300 tickets for $10 would you be ok with? It raised more revenue correct? I dont really see the difference, my guess is if you knew you wouldnt have paid $100 for a ticket but if you bought one for $10 you would be happy as heck.

 

[ElmerFudd]

Anyone know if it looks like they will make half the nonresident cap will escape the max points round? Draw deadline is in two days....

Anyways, it is not realistic to assume the regulations and rules will ever remain the same. Buyer into points system beware. You are getting an unknown future value. It is what it is.

Think a points system would fly in the lotto?

 

[WapitiBob]

2016

 

[Codylee1985]

All of you non residents crying about our system changing is kinda funny!!! I thought it's was pretty awesome when I pulled a Utah book cliff deer tag the 3rd year I ever put in although I can see your side in a way, I'd feel better knowing that although this 1st tag may have taken 20 years to pull, you may at least have a chance the next year as well!!! As for the 10% cap, that's pretty awesome and will hopefully never change!!!

 

[WapitiBob]

">WB,
>My buddy and I will be
>applying for unit 1 NR
>archery next year with 13
>points. I am confused
>and wondering what our chances
>may be. Any idea?
> Thx
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>NRA, UWC & DP Hate
>Club

>You will draw in bonus pass guaranteed next year. You would >have drawn this year if you had applied for this hunt.

A NR needed 13 points to draw the tag this year and only a few NR drew at that point level. It took 14 to be guaranteed the tag in the 2014 draw.