ATTA-BOY!!!

[elkassassin]

https://www.ksl.com/article/50560529/utah-plastic-surgeon-sold-covid-19-vax-cards-but-threw-away-the-vaccine-feds-say--

 

[eelgrass]

I know he deserves a spanking but it's hard to tell how many lives he saved.

 

[grizzly]

Conspiracy to defraud the United States, a charge they're facing, is a crime. How much did they bill the government or insurance companies for the vaccines they destroyed?

It's just like the EV thread. Some people celebrated government overreach and anti-freedom laws as long as they think it's sticking a finger in the eye of "woke."

Now are some people going to celebrate the alleged defrauding of the people of the United States, too?

Sad.

 

[grizzly]

I know he deserves a spanking but it's hard to tell how many lives he saved.

Well, not really, it's just math and the answer is zero.

 

[notdonhunting]

I am sure glad we have grizz to come on and scold us.
We are some bad bad pepole.
Beg for repentance and grizz might save us all.

 

[elkassassin]

That's Not All The Way True There grizz!

I Know Several That Can Argue With You On That and a few that can't because Their Lives Are Screwed Up Forever!

DO AS I SAY!

SLOWLY!

BUT DAMN SURELY!

Well, not really, it's just math and the answer is zero.

 

[257Tony]

The real question is how many jobs did he save? Many of these people were possibly forced to show a jab card in order to keep earning a living.

 

[JPickett]

Now are some people going to celebrate the alleged defrauding of the people of the United States, too?

and some people hid Jews in there basement too. it wasn't legal it was just the right thing to do

 

[JPickett]

Well, not really, it's just math and the answer is zero.

following the science says 6 out of 10 COVID deaths are "vaccinated" people

 

[eelgrass]

Well, not really, it's just math and the answer is zero.

The number will never be known but it's certainly not zero. Zero would mean that no one ever died of a bad reaction to the jab, or had side effects that caused an early death.

Also, we were told if we got the jab, we could go to concerts, restaurants, and hug grandma without fear of hurting anyone. Maybe some of these people were more cautious and did none of those things and lives were saved.

 

[grizzly]

following the science says 6 out of 10 COVID deaths are "vaccinated" people

Haha, please post the name of your college statistics professor so I can write him a letter about how poor of a job he did teaching you the subject. Seriously. I want to know who dropped the ball so badly.

Here's an example of why you're incorrect... If 100% of the world had been vaccinated there would still be some people that died (because no vaccine is 100% effective, if only due to a failed immune response in certain people) and the statistic would then be repeated by the Alex Jones crowd that "every COVID death was a vaccinated person." This hypothetical vaccine could've been 100% safe with 99% effectiveness, but the end statistic could still be interpreted by the uninformed that "every person that died was vaccinated." That could be said even if the vaccine had saved 100 million lives.

Here are the real numbers that show the odds of dying from COVID are LESS across all groups for those who are vaccinated verse unvaccinated.

COVID Data Tracker

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.

covid.cdc.gov

Since you probably aren't going to go dig into the statistics, here's a graph and a summary.

 

[grizzly]

The number will never be known but it's certainly not zero. Zero would mean that no one ever died of a bad reaction to the jab, or had side effects that caused an early death.

Also, we were told if we got the jab, we could go to concerts, restaurants, and hug grandma without fear of hurting anyone. Maybe some of these people were more cautious and did none of those things and lives were saved.

The data is still being calculated, but even the preliminary VAERS data (which anybody can submit online and is highly unreliable) shows a rate of .0028%, while other data puts it as high as 1 : 31,000,000, which means a subject set of 1,937 (the number claimed by prosecutors) would have a statistical fatality case rate of zero.

As my post above proves, the odds of dying is still higher among the unvaccinated, so the argument would be much stronger that facilitating people being unvaccinated contributed to more deaths than vaccinating people. Overall, the odds of dying was 34% lower for those that were vaccinated, according to this study.

If you've got different data from a reliable peer-reviewed source, I welcome it to the discussion. I've not seen any hard data that says the vaccinated died at a higher rate than unvaccinated.

 

[huntin50]

I work in Healthcare. I have been vaccinated and boosted. Most of my family were vaccinated. The vast majority of physicians I work with were vaccinated. Most of their kids were vaccinated.
I realize some side affects and even some deaths are associated with the vaccine. Low in numbers.

I have NO problems for those who chose not to get vaccinated.
I have a friend who chose not to get vaccinated. He and his wife both got covid, both pneumonia, both spent time in the hospital. He currently has 30-35% heart function associated with covid.

The problem is no one trust the government and Faucci was a joke. Treatments found to be helpful were ignored. Vaccine were demanded, with false information of protection. We will find out more truth in the future investigations.

The plastic surgeon made a very poor choice.
The government, Faucci, made many poor choices.

 

[HikeHunt61]

Ya, the vaccines are a huge positive on average for any older individual taking it. But it's not nearly as clear for children. And considering that the vaccines are not very effective to stop the transmission (but they do reduce deaths in older people)- the policy decisions are at the very least open to some criticism.

 

[notdonhunting]

I agree that fraud is a bad thing, and if you broke the law you should be punished.
There is no doubt that the Federal Government (including Trump) pulled off the largest fraud ever on the citizens of the USA. There has been more wealth created in such a short time for the IN crowd than any other 2.5 years in the history of the USA, all while the average citezen loses everything they had built sense 2008 in their 401k.
Tens of thousands of mom & pop shops closed down and the largest corporations grew to levels that no one could have ever predicted.
All of this has happened with no punishment or recourse to the federal government. In fact We have departments within the federal government creating laws without Congress, we even have departments and individuals sanctioning the Supreme Court decisions.
Yes these doctors did wrong, but it is hard for me to fond any satisfaction in them being punished.

 

[DaveD]

My own miniature study - 6 people are in my immediate family. All of us a reasonably healthy with no previous conditions. All of us have tested positive for Covid at least twice. 3 of them were vaccinated and had booster shots as recommended. 3 were not. 2 of the 3 vaccinated were hospitalized- one for several weeks. None of the 3 unvaccinated were hospitalized. Maybe we were just lucky...

 

[grizzly]

My own miniature study - 6 people are in my immediate family. All of us a reasonably healthy with no previous conditions. All of us have tested positive for Covid at least twice. 3 of them were vaccinated and had booster shots as recommended. 3 were not. 2 of the 3 vaccinated were hospitalized- one for several weeks. None of the 3 unvaccinated were hospitalized. Maybe we were just lucky...

My miniature study... All my immediate family vaccinated, only two ever tested positive out of my parents, five siblings, nine nieces and nephews, in-laws, Grandma, wife and daughter... nothing more than cold symptoms for the two that caught it.

My brother was an ICU doc at Orlando Regional during the Florida Delta Surge and saw firsthand the benefits of being vaccinated as nearly his entire ICU was unvaccinated people. At multiple points, he didn't have a single vaccinated person with COVID in his ICU. He was also part of the team that worked on the heart/lung machines, often occupied by young pregnant women with severe COVID; not a single one that he ever treated there was vaccinated.

Two friends passed away, both unvaccinated, one in his 40s and another in her 60s.

One friend with long-COVID heart damage who is in her 40s, unvaccinated, but in excellent health; she was literally the poster girl for Gold's Gym when she was in her 30s. A friend's husband, also unvaccinated, who suffered lung damage and will be attached to an oxygen tank for the rest of his life, he had poor health prior to getting COVID.

With all that said, I chose to not give my young daughter the COVID vaccine because the statistics don't show much danger for the very young and I didn't feel it was worth the risk of vaccine complications, however small they are. I make my decisions based on hard science and I decided the risk/reward simply wasn't there. She has received all other vaccinations, including the seasonal flu shot since before her first birthday.

 

[RookieWYhntr]

My own miniature study - 6 people are in my immediate family. All of us a reasonably healthy with no previous conditions. All of us have tested positive for Covid at least twice. 3 of them were vaccinated and had booster shots as recommended. 3 were not. 2 of the 3 vaccinated were hospitalized- one for several weeks. None of the 3 unvaccinated were hospitalized. Maybe we were just lucky...

Thanks for your honest reply.

 

[eelgrass]

People who were vaccinated "followed the science" and killed untold numbers of people. And we still can't explain the elevated numbers of excess deaths that aren't covid deaths although they are highly suspicious.

A 20 second video.

 

[huntin50]

People who were vaccinated "followed the science" and killed untold numbers of people. And we still can't explain the elevated numbers of excess deaths that aren't covid deaths although they are highly suspicious.

A 20 second video.

This is why their needs to be further investigation. False info.

 

[elkassassin]

You Make Your Decisions on Hard Science?

Even Before There Was Anything Known Good Or Bad?

I Get It!

The Government Tells You To Bend Over!

You Gladly Bend Over!

My miniature study... All my immediate family vaccinated, only two ever tested positive out of my parents, five siblings, nine nieces and nephews, in-laws, Grandma, wife and daughter... nothing more than cold symptoms for the two that caught it.

My brother was an ICU doc at Orlando Regional during the Florida Delta Surge and saw firsthand the benefits of being vaccinated as nearly his entire ICU was unvaccinated people. At multiple points, he didn't have a single vaccinated person with COVID in his ICU. He was also part of the team that worked on the heart/lung machines, often occupied by young pregnant women with severe COVID; not a single one that he ever treated there was vaccinated.

Two friends passed away, both unvaccinated, one in his 40s and another in her 60s.

One friend with long-COVID heart damage who is in her 40s, unvaccinated, but in excellent health; she was literally the poster girl for Gold's Gym when she was in her 30s. A friend's husband, also unvaccinated, who suffered lung damage and will be attached to an oxygen tank for the rest of his life, he had poor health prior to getting COVID.

With all that said, I chose to not give my young daughter the COVID vaccine because the statistics don't show much danger for the very young and I didn't feel it was worth the risk of vaccine complications, however small they are. I make my decisions based on hard science and I decided the risk/reward simply wasn't there. She has received all other vaccinations, including the seasonal flu shot since before her first birthday.

 

[grizzly]

$124,878.50

That's the amount of fraud alleged in the court documents.

 

[HORNhunter7]

$124,878.50

That's the amount of fraud alleged in the court documents.

That's chicken feed! Hunter Biden makes more than that in a month for his expertise in the gas and oil business.

If these people are found guilty and prosecuted they'll have to face the consequences of the choices they made.

Laws need to be enforced equally and that means the ones they're not enforcing on our Borders.

 

[Muley_73]

I'm guessing Grizz would have been a good citizen reporting neighbors for not toeing the line....in Germany or 2020-2021. Many patriots have been labeled criminals by governments.

 

[grizzly]

I'm guessing Grizz would have been a good citizen reporting neighbors for not toeing the line....in Germany or 2020-2021.

Nobody made anybody sign an agreement with the CDC to administer vaccines.

Nobody has advocated on MM that vaccines should be mandated.

All I've said is that if somebody defrauds the taxpayers of the United States they should be held accountable and that there is no evidence that vaccines caused more deaths than being unvaccinated.

But, to you and JP, that warrants a comparison to Nazi Germany? Haha 😂😂😂

Keep up the personal attacks, that will make you feel better.

Many patriots have been labeled criminals by governments.

PS. Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski fancied themselves as "patriots" too. So do the "Freedom Fighters" that slaughter women and kill American soldiers in the Middle East. Nothing should be disregard quicker than the title of a self-described "patriot."

If somebody wants to advocate for a position, they can. If they defraud us of over a hundred thousand dollars... they're clearly not a "patriot" and they can face their charges in court and, if convicted, go to prison. 'Merica

 

[Muley_73]

Nobody made anybody sign an agreement with the CDC to administer vaccines.

Nobody has advocated on MM that vaccines should be mandated.

All I've said is that if somebody defrauds the taxpayers of the United States they should be held accountable and that there is no evidence that vaccines caused more deaths than being unvaccinated.

But, to you and JP, that warrants a comparison to Nazi Germany? Haha 😂😂😂

Keep up the personal attacks, that will make you feel better.



PS. Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski fancied themselves as "patriots" too. So do the "Freedom Fighters" that slaughter women and kill American soldiers in the Middle East. Nothing should be disregard quicker than the title of a self-described "patriot."

If somebody wants to advocate for a position, they can. If they defraud us of over a hundred thousand dollars... they're clearly not a "patriot" and they can face their charges in court and, if convicted, go to prison. 'Merica

Grizz, who heads up the Patriot label committee these days? If you are concerned about being defrauded of dollars how are you not currently screaming for the government to be held accountable? Your example of patriots proves my point better than my initial comment. As far as personal attacks...I take siding with those that have recently trampled on our personal rights personal so we are even ace. ; )

 

[BuzzH]

Defending a criminal and not taking a fuggin' vaccine doesn't make you a patriot.

Unbelievable.

 

[Muley_73]

Defending a criminal and not taking a fuggin' vaccine doesn't make you a patriot.

Unbelievable.

Buzz, glad you chimed in…only validates my position even more. I was a little worried there. Taking a stand against on overreaching tyrannical government is more along the lines of patriot.

There have been times in this country where the government and those that supported them were wrong. It’s not the vaccine …it’s the push for control and compliance or else.

 

[JPickett]

Haha, please post the name of your college statistics professor so I can write him a letter about how poor of a job he did teaching you the subject. Seriously. I want to know who dropped the ball so badly.

Here's an example of why you're incorrect... If 100% of the world had been vaccinated there would still be some people that died (because no vaccine is 100% effective, if only due to a failed immune response in certain people) and the statistic would then be repeated by the Alex Jones crowd that "every COVID death was a vaccinated person." This hypothetical vaccine could've been 100% safe with 99% effectiveness, but the end statistic could still be interpreted by the uninformed that "every person that died was vaccinated." That could be said even if the vaccine had saved 100 million lives.

Here are the real numbers that show the odds of dying from COVID are LESS across all groups for those who are vaccinated verse unvaccinated.

COVID Data Tracker

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.

covid.cdc.gov

Since you probably aren't going to go dig into the statistics, here's a graph and a summary.

View attachment 100537View attachment 100538

i gottsa search engine too

Why Do Vaccinated People Represent Most COVID-19 Deaths Right Now?

This post explores why the share of COVID-19 deaths among those who are vaccinated has risen, Factors include a rising share of the population that is vaccinated, waning immune protection and low u…

www.kff.org

 

[JPickett]

remember way back when if you didn't believe this you were a domestic terrorist? my how the "facts" have changed

 

[grizzly]

There have been times in this country where the government and those that supported them were wrong. It’s not the vaccine …it’s the push for control and compliance or else.

This isn't about refusing a vaccine, nobody has criticized that. Need I say it again?

It's about stealing $125,000 from taxpayers that's the problem.

Your anger, fear, and resentment towards certain people has clouded your judgement. You've literally got yourself defending people facing criminal charges for fraud because you happen to agree with their politics.

It's that type of blind partisan politic that is ruining our country.

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz, glad you chimed in…only validates my position even more. I was a little worried there. Taking a stand against on overreaching tyrannical government is more along the lines of patriot.

There have been times in this country where the government and those that supported them were wrong. It’s not the vaccine …it’s the push for control and compliance or else.

Your stand is defending a criminal who falsified documents and stole from every other U.S. Citizen? Real patriot that would do that, combined with throwing a vaccine down the drain that others, who wanted it, were unable to get.

Yeah, real patriot you're defending there, tuffie.

I hope that hack is fined, medical license revoked, and loses everything.

 

[BuzzH]

i gottsa search engine too

Why Do Vaccinated People Represent Most COVID-19 Deaths Right Now?

This post explores why the share of COVID-19 deaths among those who are vaccinated has risen, Factors include a rising share of the population that is vaccinated, waning immune protection and low u…

www.kff.org

Without the ability to read, apparently...that does not prove that the vaccine's don't work.


Conclusion

It would be a misrepresentation of the finding to say it is evidence against vaccination. This finding actually underscores the importance of staying up-to-date on boosters.

According to CDC, people ages 12 and older who have had a bivalent booster shot have a 15 times lower risk of death than an unvaccinated person.

CDC and other researchers have shown boosters are highly effective in preventing hospitalizations and deaths, including among those most vulnerable to COVID-19. CDC now recommends the updated bivalent booster shot for everyone ages 5 year and above.

 

[HORNhunter7]

This isn't about refusing a vaccine, nobody has criticized that. Need I say it again?

It's about stealing $125,000 from taxpayers that's the problem.

Your anger, fear, and resentment towards certain people has clouded your judgement. You've literally got yourself defending people facing criminal charges for fraud because you happen to agree with their politics.

It's that type of blind partisan politic that is ruining our country.

Grizz-- you seem quite upset about the stealing of 125k from the taxpayers. I said earlier if they are found guilty they need to face the consequences . It's my understanding they've just been indicted, or accused by the feds of a crime. What happened to the innocent till your proven guilty? They might well be guilty and probably are but it looks like that's not been official proven or established yet. They may want their day in court.

I would hope you're more concerned about the estimated 20 billion dollars that illegal aliens have cost the tax payers the last 2 years than you are about the the 125k? If you think the 20 billion is a skewed number we can use the dollar amount you think is correct. Regardless it's gonna make the 125 k look pretty small.

 

[JPickett]

that does not prove that the vaccine's don't work.

A true believer right to the end. Never did answer me a while ago about how stupid you fell for swallowing the “vaccine” load

 

[BuzzH]

A true believer right to the end. Never did answer me a while ago about how stupid you fell for swallowing the “vaccine” load

You linked the article, not me. Not my problem you didn't look past the pictures...why am I not surprised?

Feel free to argue against the article you linked.

 

[JPickett]

Never forget

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

One of the biggest advocates for the vaccine on this site wouldn't get his kid vaccinated that should tell you everything you need to know

 

[grizzly]

One of the biggest advocates for the vaccine on this site wouldn't get his kid vaccinated that should tell you everything you need to know

I don't give her cough medicine or dozens of other medicines that are safe for adults and are not for children.

Your preconceived bias is preventing you from thinking clearly and seeing the whole picture or you would have realized that medicines are different for adults and children.

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

I thought the vaccine was approved for kids? Did I miss something?

 

[Muley_73]

Your stand is defending a criminal who falsified documents and stole from every other U.S. Citizen? Real patriot that would do that, combined with throwing a vaccine down the drain that others, who wanted it, were unable to get.

Yeah, real patriot you're defending there, tuffie.

I hope that hack is fined, medical license revoked, and loses everything.

Im sure you do. Stay in line or face the consequences...right? I see someone that allowed those individuals the ability to work and live a free life while others were trying to wrongfully take that away from many in this country.

 

[BuzzH]

Im sure you do. Stay in line or face the consequences...right? I see someone that allowed those individuals the ability to work and live a free life while others were trying to wrongfully take that away from many in this country.

Is it government over-reach for an employer to require a drivers license? How about a CDL? How about a degree? How about wearing a hard hat? OSHA requirements?

Are you equally outraged at all the requirements that the .gov has just so and individual can go to work?

Funny place to take your stand while whining about an individuals ability to work and live a free life.

Get over it, we live in a nation of laws, rules, and regulations.

You don't like the rules, go live on your own Island.

 

[HikeHunt61]

You don't like the rules, go live on your own Island.

Or.....

Change the rules on this island with your vote. Florida did.

 

[BuzzH]

Or.....

Change the rules on this island with your vote. Florida did.

Or....

Just whine on the net how "suppressed" you are and be a pretend patriot.

 

[Muley_73]

Is it government over-reach for an employer to require a drivers license? How about a CDL? How about a degree? How about wearing a hard hat? OSHA requirements?

Are you equally outraged at all the requirements that the .gov has just so and individual can go to work?

Funny place to take your stand while whining about an individuals ability to work and live a free life.

Get over it, we live in a nation of laws, rules, and regulations.

You don't like the rules, go live on your own Island.

Is it government over-reach for an employer to require a drivers license? How about a CDL? How about a degree? How about wearing a hard hat? OSHA requirements?

Are you equally outraged at all the requirements that the .gov has just so and individual can go to work?

Funny place to take your stand while whining about an individuals ability to work and live a free life.

Get over it, we live in a nation of laws, rules,

Is it government over-reach for an employer to require a drivers license? How about a CDL? How about a degree? How about wearing a hard hat? OSHA requirements?

Are you equally outraged at all the requirements that the .gov has just so and individual can go to work?

Funny place to take your stand while whining about an individuals ability to work and live a free life.

Get over it, we live in a nation of laws, rules, and regulations.

You don't like the rules, go live on your own Island.

and regulations.

You don't like the rules, go live on your own Island

To turn a blind eye to the reality of how Covid was handled and act like it falls in line with how the country was founded and even the current laws that were in place is laughably tragic! Many people lost jobs and much more because to many citizens of this country lost their backbone. Of course you’re gonna take the stand you take as well as Grizzly….you get a voice just like me. Doesn’t mean I have to agree.

 

[HikeHunt61]

Or....

Just whine on the net how "suppressed" you are and be a pretend patriot.

Naa- your suggestions of leave if you don't like it, or whine and state patriotism are subpar to getting out and voting. I still like my idea better.

 

[JPickett]

No Is it government over-reach for an employer to require a drivers license? How about a CDL? How about a degree? How about wearing a hard hat? OSHA requirements?

Are you equally outraged at all the requirements that the .gov has just so and individual can go to work?

Funny place to take your stand while whining about an individuals ability to work and live a free life.

Get over it, we live in a nation of laws, rules, and regulations.

You don't like the rules, go live on your own Island.

A CDL and forced medical procedures are the same what a dope!

 

[BuzzH]

Naa- your suggestions of leave if you don't like it, or whine and state patriotism are subpar to getting out and voting. I still like my idea better.

Right, so explain in detail, besides crying on the 'net just exactly what you, picket, and muley have done to change anything?

You voted, that worked out pretty well for you.

Laffin'...

 

[BuzzH]

A CDL and forced medical procedures are the same what a dope!

Nobody was forced to take a medical procedure same as nobody is forced to obtain a CDL.

Pretty straight forward.

 

[HikeHunt61]

You voted, that worked out pretty well for you.

Ahh, voting works Buzz. Sorry you don't feel that way...

 

[feddoc]

Autopsy Series: Are COVID-19 Vaccines Causing Sudden Cardiac Death?

Almost everyday in the news is another reported case of sudden, unexpected cardiac death. The vaccination status is ...

www.theepochtimes.com

 

[grizzly]

To turn a blind eye to the reality of how Covid was handled and act like it falls in line with how the country was founded and even the current laws that were in place is laughably tragic!

Ummm, the Supreme Court ruled 120 years ago in Jacobsen v. Massachusetts that the government could require vaccinations. That has been the law of the land for half our country's existence, though vaccines were not mandated for COVID.

PS. We all get our own ideals and the debate is healthy, but one side doesn't get to decide which side is a "patriot" and which isn't. AOC gets to claim the "patriot" moniker as much as you, and somebody who truly understands what our country is founded upon understands that we're a melting pot with equal opportunities for our views to be legitimate.

 

[BuzzH]

Autopsy Series: Are COVID-19 Vaccines Causing Sudden Cardiac Death?

Almost everyday in the news is another reported case of sudden, unexpected cardiac death. The vaccination status is ...

www.theepochtimes.com

Fake news from a fake source...what a joke.

 

[BuzzH]

Ahh, voting works Buzz. Sorry you don't feel that way...

Really?

That's not what the right wingers are saying...

When did I say voting didn't work for me? I said it didn't work for you.

 

[HikeHunt61]

When did I say voting didn't work for me? I said it didn't work for you

Sure it works for me. And you. And everyone.

I've never claimed anything otherwise. You have a tendency to lump anyone who disagrees with you into a category Buzz. It's not a good habit.

 

[Muley_73]

Ummm, the Supreme Court ruled 120 years ago in Jacobsen v. Massachusetts that the government could require vaccinations. That has been the law of the land for half our country's existence, though vaccines were not mandated for COVID.

PS. We all get our own ideals and the debate is healthy, but one side doesn't get to decide which side is a "patriot" and which isn't. AOC gets to claim the "patriot" moniker as much as you, and somebody who truly understands what our country is founded upon understands that we're a melting pot with equal opportunities for our views to be legitima

Grizz,
To ignore how the government (Mostly State and Local) manipulated the situation and trampled personal rights just shows what you are ok with. Its no mystery where yourself and Buzz stand on this issue or many others I don't see eye to eye with. I'm ok with that, wasn't looking for a reason to call you pal to begin with.

 

[BuzzH]

Sure it works for me. And you. And everyone.

I've never claimed anything otherwise. You have a tendency to lump anyone who disagrees with you into a category Buzz. It's not a good habit.

For it working so well, sure been a lot of right wingers whining that it didn't...wouldn't you agree?

 

[BuzzH]

Grizz,
To ignore how the government (Mostly State and Local) manipulated the situation and trampled personal rights just shows what you are ok with. Its no mystery where yourself and Buzz stand on this issue or many others I don't see eye to eye with. I'm ok with that, wasn't looking for a reason to call you pal to begin with.

Trampled personal rights?

Nobody was forced to take the vaccine. Just the same as nobody is forced to drive the speed limit, or wear a seatbelt.

I just wish, in all those cases, that if something goes wrong you accept the responsibilities of your personal rights and take care of yourself. No hospital, no EMS, no nothing...use your bootstraps and all that. If your personal rights compromise mine, I should also be afforded the right to sue the living chit out of you as well.

 

[elkassassin]

So WTF You Gonna Do?

Start An MM Lawsuit?

Trampled personal rights?

Nobody was forced to take the vaccine. Just the same as nobody is forced to drive the speed limit, or wear a seatbelt.

I just wish, in all those cases, that if something goes wrong you accept the responsibilities of your personal rights and take care of yourself. No hospital, no EMS, no nothing...use your bootstraps and all that. If your personal rights compromise mine, I should also be afforded the right to sue the living chit out of you as well.

 

[HikeHunt61]

For it working so well, sure been a lot of right wingers whining that it didn't...wouldn't you agree?

I agree some complain about elections- my biggest gripe with my friends on the right is the "stolen election" stuff. So agreed on that point.

But that was not relevant to the little disagreement we had- you suggested people leave if they don't like it. I suggest otherwise.

 

[grizzly]

Grizz,
To ignore how the government (Mostly State and Local) manipulated the situation and trampled personal rights just shows what you are ok with. Its no mystery where yourself and Buzz stand on this issue or many others I don't see eye to eye with. I'm ok with that, wasn't looking for a reason to call you pal to begin with.

Please tell me specifically what "personal rights" were "trampled" by "the government."

You've been paddling this canoe for awhile so it should be pretty easy to very clearly and concisely answer that question.

 

[HikeHunt61]

I just wish, in all those cases, that if something goes wrong you accept the responsibilities of your personal rights and take care of yourself. No hospital, no EMS, no nothing...use your bootstraps and all that. If your personal rights compromise mine, I should also be afforded the right to sue the living chit out of you as well.

I'm good with that.

You are overweight, didn't really exercise when you could, ate too much, etc. Don't go to the hospital when you have a heart attack, right?

You drive a little car that is going to be demolished in any accident because it's in the 1th percentile for weight. All other people have average weight cars. You get into an accident, you get slammed. Don't go to a hospital with that crushed leg, right?

You hunt sheep in high rocky terrain. A grizzly bear attacks you. 99.999% of people DO NOT TAKE THAT CHANCE. Don't go to a hospital with your scalp missing, right?

To tell people that they must take a vaccine or they lose their right to healthcare is the same as 100 other reasons someone doesn't "deserve" healthcare. We all make choices- and a huge percentage of the healthcare system deals with people who make life choices.

 

[BuzzH]

So WTF You Gonna Do?

Start An MM Lawsuit?

No, I don't operate like your hero...and his stable of attorneys.

 

[grizzly]

To tell people that they must take a vaccine or they lose their right to healthcare

To what are you referring?

 

[BuzzH]

I'm good with that.

You are overweight, didn't really exercise when you could, ate too much, etc. Don't go to the hospital when you have a heart attack, right?

You drive a little car that is going to be demolished in any accident because it's in the 1th percentile for weight. All other people have average weight cars. You get into an accident, you get slammed. Don't go to a hospital with that crushed leg, right?

You hunt sheep in high rocky terrain. A grizzly bear attacks you. 99.999% of people DO NOT TAKE THAT CHANCE. Don't go to a hospital with your scalp missing, right?

To tell people that they must take a vaccine or they lose their right to healthcare is the same as 100 other reasons someone doesn't "deserve" healthcare. We all make choices- and a huge percentage of the healthcare system deals with people who make life choices.

The same people whining the loudest about taking a vaccine are the same ones telling everyone they need to take responsibility for themselves.

Yet, seem just fine with plugging up hospitals and pushing themselves to the front of the line looking for care when they took not a single preventative action.

The hypocrisy gets old...

Anyone that failed to get vaccinated and died of Covid, has long haulers, etc....deserve what they got. I have less than zero sympathy for them.

Glad they proved their patriotism...

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

The same people whining the loudest about taking a vaccine are the same ones telling everyone they need to take responsibility for themselves.

Yet, seem just fine with plugging up hospitals and pushing themselves to the front of the line looking for care when they took not a single preventative action.

The hypocrisy gets old...

Anyone that failed to get vaccinated and died of Covid, has long haulers, etc....deserve what they got. I have less than zero sympathy for them.

Glad they proved their patriotism...

Do you have that same outlook for all the overweight and unhealthy eaters clogging our hospitals and insurance with their issues?

 

[BuzzH]

Do you have that same outlook for all the overweight and unhealthy eaters clogging our hospitals and insurance with their issues?

If overweight people are pointing fingers and telling others to take personal responsibility for their actions like the right wingers do constantly...then yes.

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

You must have slept during covid I saw a lot of unhealthy people whining about the un-vaxxed

 

[Muley_73]

Please tell me specifically what "personal rights" were "trampled" by "the government."

You've been paddling this canoe for awhile so it should be pretty easy to very clearly and concisely answer that question.

Businesses forced to close…government determining what is considered essential or not…schools closed, events canceled, people fired for not complying to mask or vaccines, medication denied. All spurred by government and media manipulation. But again…I’m not surprised at your views. I’d actually be alarmed if you and I aligned on most things.

Trampled personal rights?

Nobody was forced to take the vaccine. Just the same as nobody is forced to drive the speed limit, or wear a seatbelt.

I just wish, in all those cases, that if something goes wrong you accept the responsibilities of your personal rights and take care of yourself. No hospital, no EMS, no nothing...use your bootstraps and all that. If your personal rights compromise mine, I should also be afforded the right to sue the living chit out of you as well.

Lmao…of course you’re a “sue you guy” Buzz!!! Please do Chief!!!

 

[elkassassin]

So BuzzH?

When The Government Asks You To Bend Over!

You'll Be Quick To Ask How Far,Right?

 

[grizzly]

Businesses forced to close…government determining what is considered essential or not…schools closed, events canceled, people fired for not complying to mask or vaccines, medication denied.

Let's go through your list.

Businesses closed ... not a personal right. Businesses are licensed and can be closed by the government for various reasons.

Schools closed... not a personal right to attend in-person schools when you want. They can choose when to operate and when not. They can also designate boundaries, dress codes, etc... I can't show up at your local elementary school tomorrow and demand to attend class.

Events closed... You don't have a personal right to go see Jordan Peterson or anybody else. Sorry.

People fired for not complying with mask or vaccination mandates... The business owner has the right to require certain things of his employees. He can fire somebody for not wearing a helmet on a job site, too.

Medication denied... Walk down to Walgreens and demand oxycodone. Tell them it's your personal right. Tell them you're demanding Fen-Phen for weight loss, too. Let me know how it goes.

I noticed you skipped right over Jacobsen v. Massachusetts, the century old SCOTUS ruling saying that vaccine mandates are legal.

You missed your best argument and that was mask mandates on public transportation, which was overturned by a judge. The system worked as intended.

 

[elkassassin]

And They SKEERED The Majority Of Americans With Your List Of BS!

Don't You Think We Maybe Ought To be Finding Ways Of Making Americans Proud Again Rather Than The BS That's Been Going On?

Let's go through your list.

Businesses closed ... not a personal right. Businesses are licensed and can be closed by the government for various reasons.

Schools closed... not a personal right to attend in-person schools when you want. They can choose when to operate and when not. They can also designate boundaries, dress codes, etc... I can't show up at your local elementary school tomorrow and demand to attend class.

Events closed... You don't have a personal right to go see Jordan Peterson or anybody else. Sorry.

People fired for not complying with mask or vaccination mandates... The business owner has the right to require certain things of his employees. He can fire somebody for not wearing a helmet on a job site, too.

Medication denied... Walk down to Walgreens and demand oxycodone. Tell them it's your personal right. Tell them you're demanding Fen-Phen for weight loss, too. Let me know how it goes.

I noticed you skipped right over Jacobsen v. Massachusetts, the century old SCOTUS ruling saying that vaccine mandates are legal.

You missed your best argument and that was mask mandates on public transportation, which was overturned by a judge. The system worked as intended.

 

[Muley_73]

And They SKEERED The Majority Of Americans With Your List Of BS!

Don't You Think We Maybe Ought To be Finding Ways Of Making Americans Proud Again Rather Than The BS That's Been Going On?

Bess,
This is the America grizz and buzz prefer! They voted for it by gawd!!!

 

[HikeHunt61]

To what are you referring?

To Buzz's comment about people who didn't get the vaccine, and then get bad Covid, shouldn't use healthcare system...

 

[JPickett]

Nobody was forced to take a medical procedure same as nobody is forced to obtain a CDL.

Pretty straight forward.

Yeah because when you have a family at home and you’re the sole provider, a take this shot or lose your job isn’t a gun to your head at all.

People like you are the problem

 

[Muley_73]

Let's go through your list.

Businesses closed ... not a personal right. Businesses are licensed and can be closed by the government for various reasons.

Schools closed... not a personal right to attend in-person schools when you want. They can choose when to operate and when not. They can also designate boundaries, dress codes, etc... I can't show up at your local elementary school tomorrow and demand to attend class.

Events closed... You don't have a personal right to go see Jordan Peterson or anybody else. Sorry.

People fired for not complying with mask or vaccination mandates... The business owner has the right to require certain things of his employees. He can fire somebody for not wearing a helmet on a job site, too.

Medication denied... Walk down to Walgreens and demand oxycodone. Tell them it's your personal right. Tell them you're demanding Fen-Phen for weight loss, too. Let me know how it goes.

I noticed you skipped right over Jacobsen v. Massachusetts, the century old SCOTUS ruling saying that vaccine mandates are legal.

You missed your best argument and that was mask mandates on public transportation, which was overturned by a judge. The system worked as intended.

Right to assemble, right to worship…you can side with a overreaching government all you want and claim justification …those that have supported and help grown tyrannical governments through history have always done so.

 

[elkassassin]

Yes They Did!

And The Scary Part Is They'd Vote For It Again!

Bess,
This is the America grizz and buzz prefer! They voted for it by gawd!!!

 

[HikeHunt61]

Let's go through your list.

Businesses closed ... not a personal right. Businesses are licensed and can be closed by the government for various reasons.

Schools closed... not a personal right to attend in-person schools when you want. They can choose when to operate and when not. They can also designate boundaries, dress codes, etc... I can't show up at your local elementary school tomorrow and demand to attend class.

Events closed... You don't have a personal right to go see Jordan Peterson or anybody else. Sorry.

People fired for not complying with mask or vaccination mandates... The business owner has the right to require certain things of his employees. He can fire somebody for not wearing a helmet on a job site, too.

Medication denied... Walk down to Walgreens and demand oxycodone. Tell them it's your personal right. Tell them you're demanding Fen-Phen for weight loss, too. Let me know how it goes.

I noticed you skipped right over Jacobsen v. Massachusetts, the century old SCOTUS ruling saying that vaccine mandates are legal.

You missed your best argument and that was mask mandates on public transportation, which was overturned by a judge. The system worked as intended.

Ya, it's not about individual rights in most of those cases.

But it is about super bad policies that did have super bad consequences. For all of us.

Initially, it was hard to know. I didn't fault the response for the first 6 months. Then it became clearer, yet no changes. Then it became obvious, yet nobody could admit it, and we continued with terribly destructive policies- for 2 years.

Now, I really wish congress, BOTH PARTIES, would put aside all the other stupid crap, and take an objective look at what happened and what we should do different.

Good luck with that- hell, some of the stupid policies are STILL being implemented or re-implemented. JSMN.

 

[BuzzH]

Yeah because when you have a family at home and you’re the sole provider, a take this shot or lose your job isn’t a gun to your head at all.

People like you are the problem

Those things in your first paragraph, choices YOU made, grab them bootstraps....

 

[HikeHunt61]

Anyone that failed to get vaccinated and died of Covid, has long haulers, etc....deserve what they got. I have less than zero sympathy for them.

Glad they proved their patriotism...

Full disclosure: I was an early recipient of the vaccine and got boosted.

Man dude- you are beyond brutal.

I get the logical argument that folks who make a poor choice and then something bad happens to them are contributing to their circumstance. But "Glad" and "deserved" about their deaths?

Do you listen to (read) what you write?

 

[eelgrass]

I think more people would have gotten the vaccine if the CDC, WHO, and the government hadn't told bald face lies about it.

Many, many virologists and doctors worldwide were warning us about that, but they got cancelled or banned from speaking. People aren't stupid. The stupid ones blindly follow orders.

I listened to everybody I could and decided at my age to get vaccinated. I figured if the vaccine works, why would I care if you get vaccinated or not?

 

[Bluehair]

I don’t give a **** how you kill yourself as long as I don’t get the check.

”The curfew is to prevent infection and insurrection”

 

[grizzly]

Ya, it's not about individual rights in most of those cases.

But it is about super bad policies that did have super bad consequences. For all of us.

Initially, it was hard to know. I didn't fault the response for the first 6 months. Then it became clearer, yet no changes. Then it became obvious, yet nobody could admit it, and we continued with terribly destructive policies- for 2 years.

Now, I really wish congress, BOTH PARTIES, would put aside all the other stupid crap, and take an objective look at what happened and what we should do different.

Good luck with that- hell, some of the stupid policies are STILL being implemented or re-implemented. JSMN.

I 100% agree with all of this.

 

[HORNhunter7]

The same people whining the loudest about taking a vaccine are the same ones telling everyone they need to take responsibility for themselves.

Yet, seem just fine with plugging up hospitals and pushing themselves to the front of the line looking for care when they took not a single preventative action.

The hypocrisy gets old...

Anyone that failed to get vaccinated and died of Covid, has long haulers, etc....deserve what they got. I have less than zero sympathy for them.

Glad they proved their patriotism...

Buzz-- Apparently you got upset enough at what you call right wingers that your true colors came out. That tells me you could care less what I say, even if it's right, but we all are suppose to have the right to speak so here goes.

First you say nobody was forced to take the vaccine. I guess technically you're right because some were told take it or you can't work here anymore so they quit. I have a personnel friend who had 25 years with a state job and that's what he did. He was 60 years old and had not planned to retire yet but he felt as strongly about not taking the vaccine as you do taking it. It would be interesting to see what you and others who are pro vac. would of done if you had an employer who told you if you TAKE the vaccine you can't work here anymore. I'm sure there would of been lots of screaming for some kind of Government intervention.

The biggest thing though was your comment that anybody that failed to get vaccinated and died got what they deserved. You have no sympathy for them. Lots of kids lost parents, Grand Parents , wives , husbands etc .etc. Some families were completely destroyed. Both from the vaccinated and unvaccinated camp. I suppose you were sympatric to the ones who believe like you and were vaccinated but still died. You appear to be a poster child of what's wrong in this country today. That's sad and pretty pathetic.

I'd like to think most people on this site, regardless of their Politics, don't share your values on life.

 

[grizzly]

^^^^ @HikeHunt61 has got it figured out.

The government's reaction wasn't illegal, mandates (though not implemented) are currently legal, SCOTUS didn't overturn the closure of businesses or schools, etc...

I don't at all like the government's response to COVID and I think the places that responded with more restraint had a much better experience than the most aggressive responders. I think most people would agree it should've been done differently and the response should've been more localized... but there was a lot we didn't know at the beginning and the response was implemented with an abundance of caution.

But it wasn't a conspiracy. It wasn't Bill Gates. The vaccines were largely effective and safe and saved untold lives.

Sociologists and the medical world will study the COVID response for decades looking for the positives and negatives.

Mistakes were made, undoubtedly.

 

[BuzzH]

Full disclosure: I was an early recipient of the vaccine and got boosted.

Man dude- you are beyond brutal.

I get the logical argument that folks who make a poor choice and then something bad happens to them are contributing to their circumstance. But "Glad" and "deserved" about their deaths?

Do you listen to (read) what you write?

I feel sorry and bad for people, who through no fault of their own, have bad things happen to them.

Defying logic, science, and common sense to prove a point, then when you die from your own stupidity...don't hold your breath waiting for sympathy from me. Why would I feel sorry or bad for someone who essentially asked for what they got?

Plus, according to the right Covid was all a hoax and nobody died from it anyway. It was all falsified death certificates from car wrecks that caused it.

Remember that dumb bastard that wouldn't leave when St. Helens erupted?

Yeah didn't feel sorry for him either, got exactly what he deserved.

 

[HikeHunt61]

I give up Buzz. You win- enjoy being "glad" about people's deaths.

I guarantee you- each of us makes decisions that are not the greatest when it comes to likelihood of death. I guarantee that includes you. I'm glad you survived yours. Honestly.

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz-- Apparently you got upset enough at what you call right wingers that your true colors came out. That tells me you could care less what I say, even if it's right, but we all are suppose to have the right to speak so here goes.

First you say nobody was forced to take the vaccine. I guess technically you're right because some were told take it or you can't work here anymore so they quit. I have a personnel friend who had 25 years with a state job and that's what he did. He was 60 years old and had not planned to retire yet but he felt as strongly about not taking the vaccine as you do taking it. It would be interesting to see what you and others who are pro vac. would of done if you had an employer who told you if you TAKE the vaccine you can't work here anymore. I'm sure there would of been lots of screaming for some kind of Government intervention.

The biggest thing though was your comment that anybody that failed to get vaccinated and died got what they deserved. You have no sympathy for them. Lots of kids lost parents, Grand Parents , wives , husbands etc .etc. Some families were completely destroyed. Both from the vaccinated and unvaccinated camp. I suppose you were sympatric to the ones who believe like you and were vaccinated but still died. You appear to be a poster child of what's wrong in this country today. That's sad and pretty pathetic.

I'd like to think most people on this site, regardless of their Politics, don't share your values on life.

I don't feel sorry for those that were unvaccinated by choice and died from covid. They knew the risks, bet it all on red, and lost.

They didn't care enough about their families to do the right thing...selfish fools.

I have no sympathy for them...I'd do about anything to protect my family.

Those that did all they could, I feel extremely bad for them. They obviously cared about their health and their families.

As to your friend, good for him if he quit, his choice and again I don't care what choice he made. Sonebody else is probably very happy he quit and doing his job just fine. I call that a win-win.

Also, I'm not cracked up about taking vaccines but vetted the science and counted the odds. I didn't take it because of my job, I took it because I believe in science and that the world isn't flat. Politics played zero role in taking them, patriotism played zero role either.

Just the science.

 

[BuzzH]

I give up Buzz. You win- enjoy being "glad" about people's deaths.

I guarantee you- each of us makes decisions that are not the greatest when it comes to likelihood of death. I guarantee that includes you. I'm glad you survived yours. Honestly.

Oh quit, there ain't nobody getting off this SOB alive...you couldn't care less when I kick it. Don't pretend to care...it's all an act that nobody is buying.

 

[Muley_73]

Oh quit, there ain't nobody getting off this SOB alive...you couldn't care less when I kick it. Don't pretend to care...it's all an act that nobody is buying.

I care...like for real 100% I care....oh wait...they will still count your vote...so you're right...I don't care.

 

[BuzzH]

I care...like for real 100% I care....oh wait...they will still count your vote...so you're right...I don't care.

I Enjoy, and appreciate your honesty and humor...

 

[HORNhunter7]

I don't feel sorry for those that were unvaccinated by choice and died from covid. They knew the risks, bet it all on red, and lost.

They didn't care enough about their families to do the right thing...selfish fools.

I have no sympathy for them...I'd do about anything to protect my family.

Those that did all they could, I feel extremely bad for them. They obviously cared about their health and their families.

As to your friend, good for him if he quit, his choice and again I don't care what choice he made. Sonebody else is probably very happy he quit and doing his job just fine. I call that a win-win.

It's possible it could work out real good for my friend. The State he was employed with may have to give back pay (plus) to all the employees that quit specifically because they refused to take the shot.

If that happens it will lead us back to a discussion on who should be responsible for thousands of dollars of wasted tax payer money again for doing something they had no right to do. I call that a waste of money.

 

[BuzzH]

It's possible it could work out real good for my friend. The State he was employed with may have to give back pay (plus) to all the employees that quit specifically because they refused to take the shot.

If that happens it will lead us back to a discussion on who should be responsible for thousands of dollars of wasted tax payer money again for doing something they had no right to do. I call that a waste of money.

Meh...