Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

NeMont

NeMont

Long Time Member
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http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=6491455&page=1

Basically that claim was based upon flawed analysis and yet it has been thrown around as justification for throwing Billions at the car industry. Even the authors of the original study have backed off of that number but our politicians have used it as gospel to scare the American people that life would end without this bailout.

Again this is terrible policy, terrible economics and terrible morality.

Did you see the quote from GWB? Quote, "I've abandoned free market principles to save the free market system".

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=242763

Do you remember during Vietnam a Soldier said, "We burned the village down in order save the village"? Both of those statement are equally idiotic.

Nemont
 
Maybe not 1 in 10 but very important no doubt.

Bush is doing the right thing for a change, he said in normal times he's let it go but these are not normal times. well said.

We need the auto industry as much as they need us, the money he's using was going to be blown on the bank debacle anyway so this is a far better investment, and it is an investment. the deal he's talking about is a good one, everyone has to tighten their belt and there needs to be a plan to get with the times and be competitive, excellent

This makes Bush 2 for 2500, his idea for a worker visa program and this common sense plan as he exits redeem him somewhat.
 
I see a mentality here I don't understand.

When the move to approve 700 billion bucks to bail out the banks was made there was a little whining, including myself I don't agree with it. now that 17 billion of that money destined to be blown is moved to save amrican manufacturing icons who provide 3 milion jobs we here the most crying I've heard since I was in grade school.

What is the problem with redirecting a small percentage of money that's going to be wasted to a plan that with any luck will pay back many times over? do you even realize we're on the brink of a depression, at best a long recession? this is no bump in the road and never before have we have so many global vultures with deep pockets waiting to pick us over.

You're willing to sell us out for some misdirected principal is all I can imagine. if you're going to give some stupid we don't want to be socialist argument save it, the horse left the barn years ago on that one, and the 700 billion sealed it. do you have a valid reason to oppose the redirection of already wasted funds or not?
 
Yes I do when my farm lost 30,000 I didn't ask for a bailout I made better decisions and didn't waste my profits from following years on wild trips overseas or on huge bonuses for my employees I put money away for future buisness downturns.
Driftersifter
 
Did you employ 3 million workers? would the economy have noticed you going broke? you and me or GM is comparing apples and Tuesday.

There's an old saying you can't be both proud and rich, I don't care if there's a chance to see them go broke if it cost me in the long run. the unions will take a pay cut and the CEO's will take a bigger cut, I can accept that and move forward without the need to see them in homeless shelters if it pays off for everyone including me in the end.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-08 AT 01:16PM (MST)[p]
hmmm. So far you have called me UnAmerican and now I am a "sell out", interesting stuff.

If there is a misdirected principal it is throwing good money after bad, if the market doesn't want to buy GM and Chrysler stock why should the taxpayers be forced to?

The bailout of Wall Street wasn't right either so to continue to do what you are doing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

It is immoral for politicians in Washington to take money from taxpayers and give it to private business. Chrysler is owned by a private equity firm who just bought it last year, why should anyone care if the private equity guys get their a$$ handed to them.

If anyone is selling out it is the people who see nothing wrong with this charade of a bailout. This money isn't the end of Detroit coming to Washington for money, it is just the begining.

You had 7 years of heartburn that the country was mislead and lied to when going to war in Iraq. This is just more of the same, you are being lied to the only difference is that now you agree with the lie. So therefore it is justified in your mind. You were upset when people questioned your patriotism over that issue but because of this I am a "sell out". Pretty plain to see that you are no different then the guys that called you out.

This plan bailout is dumb, it will do nothing to help and in fact will cost jobs. It is destructive for the jobs that could have been created but never will be, it is costing us more then it will ever return.

Ask yourself why Warren Buffet is all for the auto bailout but has not one dimes worth of auto company stocks held by Berkshire Hathaway? He knows those companies are still not undervalued. Yet the American taxpayer is being forced to accept GM stock without being able to do any due diligence, not being asked whether it is a good idea or not.

Did you see that the dollar took it's largest dive in 13 years yesterday? Why do you suppose the demand for dollars is taking a nose dive? It is because the world's investors know that Bernanke, Paulson, Bush and the incoming administration know nothing about how to solve our problems. Everything these guys have done and are going to do is bad long term for our country.

If you want a vibrant and flourishing auto industry then they must restructure and giving them taxpayer money stifles restructuring, it allows both labor and management to dig in and it rewards bad decision making.

Signed,

A sellout (Even though I love this country and was willing to wear the uniform)


P.S. HD go read or better yet watch what the experts say about how many jobs are at stake. It is not 3 million. That is part of the lie. Even Buffet says it isn't 3 million.
 
You're not happy with what republican Bush is going to do, and you won't be happy with what democrat Obama is going to do so my guess is you're not going to be happy in any event. this is the classic everyone is crazy except you and me and I'm not sure about you. this is a plan favored by both a republican president and the incoming democrat, it's bipartisan.


You have no proof letting the auto makers fail will work out for the best, that's a theory not a fact. maybe there isn't 3 million direct jobs, but it's a lot, and a lot of sub contractors would fold with the reduced business and those jobs would be shipped overseas as well most likely. you have lots of talk but if you don't like the facts as presented prove them wrong, if it's not 3 million how many is it? less isn't an answer. who is going to buy up these companies and will the production move out of the country? can the economy stand the blow without making a depression a probablity? you don't even know what the plan is but you know it's wrong, that makes me question your opinion.
 
hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

HD,
Enjoy the country this used to be. I have podsted a lot of evidence that these bailouts are not only bad but also immoral. If you choose to ignore them that is your right.

I have not said that everyone else is crazy. I said this I dumb, I have no doubt that the politicians think this is right but politicians usually don't know crap about economics.

I don't know everything but I know enough that this is q bad deal for everyone.

Nemont
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

Another $350 billion was looted today. Chump change to what the next Administration will spend. The consumer is dead. And Detroit picks up a cool $17,000,000,000 from GWB.

What a country.


Dean Parisian
Chippewa Partners
http://chippewapartners.blogspot.com
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

Bush makes a rare correct call and you guys bust his chops. I'm starting to feel sorry for the guy, even his cheerleaders have balied on him.

None of you know this is a wrong move , it could be Bush's finest moment we won't know for some time. this isn't the USA of 50 years ago, and we're not in the world we were 50 years ago, we figure out how to survive in this new world or we die. letting the strong survive might mean we don't survive, you only think you know what unregulated free trade will do to a nation who demands a higher standard of living. we very might reach 3rd world status but it shouldn't be because we just let the chips fall, on our heads.
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

For no other reason than you are for it leads me to believe I should be against it.
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

Nemont- your pleas for rational thought are years late,the republicans wanted to show the voters that they could produce a booming economy like the dot com boom that Clinton enjoyed, so we got the real estate bubble, tax cuts we couldn't afford,then expensive poorly run wars, you know all that stuff. So I want you to really tell us how the U.S. can ever compete in the world market with our military budget and health care budget? because you act like another great depression will fix everything, maybe so, but there isn't another WW2 and a whole lot of other things, that will make the eventual outcome much different now
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

You want to know what the best part about it is? once again this is going to go down as I wish. it's all good.

I'm just an armchair economist like the rest of you, but common sense says Bush is right this time, and let's face it, he's due.
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

Piper,
How about you explain to me how borrowing all this money on the backs of all the future generations is a good thing.

The dot com bubble was just another bubble. Look at the tech companies that are now gone.

I don't want a great depression and I don't advocate unregulated trade. I am for sound economic policy and if you think this is right that is your right but remember when your grand children are living in third world country don't blame me.

In every past economic down turn government is more of a hinderance then a help, that is why even the massive new spending by FDR didn't change the unemployment even as late as 1938-39. Government always misallocates resources.

We should take care of our elderly and the disabled but not private industry.

This is just justication for every other industry that is hurting. How are you going to feel when the ailing insurance companies come asking for their hand out? All commerce ceases without insurance to manage risk and indemnify people but I bet you will scream the evil insurance industry doesn't deserve a dime.

I just hope all you bailout supporters are willing to own the disaster you are helping to create. If you like the 1970's stagflation you are going to absolutely adore the next 10 years.
Nemont
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

Nemont I share your concern for the national debt, I've wanted to reduce it for the last 10 years but all we've done is increase it when there was no excuse. so, every US citizen owes $34,734 as we speak, put what we're going to add to it even if we become thrifty along with interest , deduct the citizens who pay little or no taxes and the real figure will be more like $100,000 per tax payer. our chance to keep the national debt from being a major monkey on our back has long passed, so what rational mind could say a few billion dollars to save the american auto industry is going to upset the apple cart?


We're in a position now the debt is beyond any hope of being repaid. why not use what's left of our credit to dig out of what will become a depression if you had your way? if we regain our economy and investors still want in we can go ahead and ignore the debt for the rest of our lives, if things go to crap as you say and run away inflation takes place we'll pay the debt down with funny money for pennies on the dollar. we either build debt or inflate it away, no matter what your principles say this is how it will be, it's too late to be fiscally responsible..
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

We will never rid ourselves of being debt until we go back to the gold standard or some sort of commodity backed currency. The fiat monetary system we have been under for 95 years ensures we will be worse off 4 years from now than we are today. The bail outs will NOT work, throwing bad money after bad business models is NOT going to 'revive' the economy. I thought guys like HD were Darwin believers, and here he is trying to keep a PROVEN dino propped up with MORE debt passed on to future generations.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

Nothing there.


I am a Darwinist, and that means you adapt or die.

When in history have we ( America ) been in this position? thanks to your hero we're deep in debt, $137,000 per family of 4. we're in the wost recession since the great depression and maybe we're in a depression and don't know it yet, we have high consumer debt, our auto industry is on the verge of failure and will be replaced by foreign imports like everything else we buy.

Never before have we been here or even close, and never before have we had world competition to the degree we have today. there is no history to compare with so we adapt or die, letting what left of our jobs leave the country while we're this deep in debt means we die. time to think outside your little box and toss the conservative handbook, when Bush and Cheney have a better grip on reality than you do you should be doing some rethinking about now.
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-08 AT 11:27AM (MST)[p]There are a couple of issues that you have also get your mind around, this isn't just about the Auto industry, now the real estate developers are in Washington asking for help. The insurance industry is putting together their wish list of swaps, bailout funds and stock repurchase plans.

While true we have not been in debt this far, we have faced economic downturns while fighting as fierce foreign competition. You should read some economic history. The Great Depression was made worse by protectionism that stifled competition.

The idea that we are so far in the hole that trillions more doesn't matter is that same logic I hear people with unmanageable credit card debt use. "We have spent so much and owe so much, what difference does a trip to the Bahamas make".

The bailout, round one is done, Bush ignored the majority, ignored congress, ignored the will of the people who have to bear the burden but that is water under the bridge. Round two of a more massive bailout will be in congress prior to February 15th. It will make this bailout look like a bargain. Loans subsidized by the taxpayers is a bailout.

It is false to believe that these car makers would just cease to exist. Now the American taxpayer, on top of the bailout for Wall Street, is being forced to support Chrysler's Private equity firms stockholders. That is a great way to encourage more mismanagement and malfeasance. It is a great day to be a lobbyist because corporations in every industry have either been to Washington, are going soon or are planning to go after Obama takes office.

There is a saying in economics: Anytime anyone tells you that it is different this time, you can rest assured it is not.

Nemont
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

Nemont-the way you put things I would have to agree that we should let the chips fall where they may, but Im not so sure the auto workers bailout is like a trip to the Bahamas, the economy needs restructuring from the top down not the bottom up, from the bottom up means more forclosures, more job loss and lost tax revenue, we got into this mess with the top down, trickle down mentality, corporations and wall street sold us out, they swindled us with talk radio and ponzi schemes, go to china and save so much money on manufacturing costs that we can get a 10 or a 50 million dollar christmas bonus, you know that old Republican theme song by Dire Straits? "get your money for nothing and your chicks for free", a grade schooler could tell that it couldn't last, so now we have to pay, Paul Krugman said this in january of 2002 " I predict that in the years ahead Enron, not sept 11, will come to be seen as the greater turning point in U.S. society"
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

We have never been this far in debt because we have never gone this long having a fiat monetary system backed by NOTHING by a IOU from the government. It has been 95 years since America abandoned the gold standard. Until we return to it we will get deeper and deeper in debt, regardless of who is sitting in the Oval Office.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

Piper,

I agree with almost everything you said. The problem is that this bailout is another top down solution. The top management in the corporations, the top elected official in the country and the top Union officials all imposed this upon the Taxpayers of this country. After it had been voted down or killed by people elected to represent the people of their respective states.

So if you believe top down solutions don't work, how can you support this? In the end it will not "save" a single job. Read about the lost decade in 1990's in Japan and the "Zombie" corporations their bailouts spawned. Top down from the government leads to bad outcomes.

Anyway it is not of any use to argue because those who disagree won't care what the actual outcome and those that agree will sit in silence as our country is sold to the government one piece at a time.

Have a very merry Christmas and I do truly wish you and yours long term peace and happiness.

Peace,

Nemont
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

Nemont- you know a lot more about economics than I. Lets hope things don't turn out as dire as you are predicting as I really worry about things. thanks for the Christmas message and I hope the holidays are good for you and your family also.
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

Until you figure out how to do nothing and keep the jobs in america we are forced to get involved. no jobs equal no economy, if you think we're building debt now just wait until everything is imported.

These are times like never before, it's not a matter of which american company gets the business and which american gets employed, it's a matter of is it going to be an american with a job or Hop Sing with a job. end of story, bottom line, save our domestic industry or import. what industial comapany is going to start up a new business here? why not go where labor is $100 a month and nobody has heard of environmental restrictions? little or no health care cost what could be better? get real, if we let these businesses go down they're not coming back here.
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-08 AT 03:35PM (MST)[p]HD,

Find a single creditable economist who believes that there would be no U.S. owned auto makers if they went into bankruptcy. Find a knowledgeable investor who believes what the Fed and administration are doing is healthy long term.

It doesn't matter what I am going to say you believe the economics and capital don't have their own law. Well they do have their own laws that are as predictable and measureable as the law of gravity. It won't matter how much data, history, economic theory and examples from the real world that I post, you aren't going to believe that in order for a flourishing auto industry that thrives here the best thing for them would be let them enter bankruptcy court.

So in the end I will be proved right that this was horrible economics, this is just the first down payment on probably 100's of billions more to prop auto companies up and in the end they will fail anyway because incompetent people were rewarded by the government rather then pushed out. So I need to stop posting on these threads because it is obvious you are not going to listen to me or anyone else. You think the President is right to ignore the will of the people, override the intent of congress and write checks for all future generations to pay for.

So merry Christmas and Happy New Year. I will send you a copy of Jim Roger's news letter and Ed Schiff's book.

Peace,

Nemont
 
RE: hdRE: Auto Industry= 1in 10 jobs? Not so fast

LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-08 AT 06:42PM (MST)[p] Well only time will tell, I'm not saying it's great thing but the good should outweight the bad in the long run. there is little doubt some form of american auto industry would rise from the ashes but when and how big? you don't know and neither do I.

For the record the CNN poll taken today shows 63% of americans are in favor of the money loaned so far, more might not be as well accepted though the poll shows. it also showed 2/3 of the people surveyed would be less likely to buy a car from a bankrupt company. on the subject Toyota is going to post it's first loss since 1950, so to say it's all the union the auto makers fault is a weak argument. you can bet if this drags on the japs won't let their auto industry fold, I doubt that will happen but rest assured they would prop them up just as we are.

So we may as well give this up as you say, nobody including the government care what we have to say anyway. inflation and debt are going to eat us up bailout or no bailout, don't fret too much about a few bucks for american industry.
 

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