Auto "loans" by George

[Moondog]

Well, W has put forth a plan to help the Automakers survive by granting loans and giving a March 31st deadline for them to get a plan together or refund the money.
Calls for concessions by mgmt and labor. Can the auto companies get a plan in place that quickly? What say you?

 

[202typical]

Friggin rediculous

 

[huntindude]

Yes, will it work? I don't know but I hope so.

Our inovation and manufacturing is what made us the greatest nation on earth, now that a series of events transpired that put our domestic producers at risk everyone wants to sit on their thumbs and watch them sink to be replaced by foreigners, poor economics.

If gas prices hadn't spiked as the economy tanked we wouldn't be having this discission, if gas prices stayed where they are now and the economy was strong we would be buying our gas hogs and all would be fat and happy. times have changed overnight, not helpiing out domestic producers meet that change would be a foolish and costly mistake. don't forget none of the auto companies are doing well, Honda cancelled it's race season to save money.

Our auto industry I suspect will survive and the jobs they provide and the taxes they will generate will make this a sound investment. I can't say the same for the bank bailout where this money was robbed from.

 

[202typical]

Dude, what part of a failed business model don't you get. This is throwing good money after bad. You watch GM and Chrysler will be back looking for another hand out with in a year. then what Dude?

let them file chapter 11 and reorganize. They will come out better faster stronger.

 

[NeMont]

It is not sound economics. It is exactly the opposite, it pi$$poor economics. If it were just the price of gas spiking then how come the Big three have been having to get rid of jobs and outsource more each year that has gone by.


It won't save a single job and the jobs that could have been created will never be created.

It is a sad day in America. Anyone with three firing brain cells needs to look at getting out of dollars and into other investments denominated in other currencies.


Nemont

 

[eelgrass]

The Senate voted down the money. (good for them). Then Bush decides to use TARP money for a "loan". I think he did that to keep them alive until he leaves office,(he doesn't want them to fail on his watch). Then he will ride off into the sunset and let Obama deal with it, especially since Obama is for it.

If it doesn't work out all they will have done is screwed the people. No big deal since we're obviously spineless.

Eel
President Obama and Congress should leave gun rights alone. It's above their pay grade.

 

[huntindude]

So you think the money would be better spent on the bankers? this money is already spent either way.

 

[piper]

Its obvious you don't understand economics, bankers spend at least 25 percent of their working day on internet porn sites, and believe it or not porn is a multibillion dollar industry, and its an industry Americans compete well in, do you see any bailouts on that front coming? so not only do bankers help struggling businesses with capital they also help solvent companys stay solvent, well anyway this free market stuff is kind of hard to explain

 

[woodruffhunter]

"well anyway this free market stuff is kind of hard to explain"

Obviously

 

[huntindude]

So a 700 billion dollar gift to idiot bankers is Ok but a 17 billion dollar loan to save 3 million american jobs is oh my god wrong? otay.

 

[accubond]

I'm with you dude. The money being used for the big three which is actually going to the big two is coming from money already spent on the banks that would just use the money to further monopolize the banking industry. One of the major problems facing the big three is if they can get the union mafia to realize how overpaid they are. Before any of the union puppets jump down my throat for saying that, save the speech, I was in the union for years and despite the pressure I didn't drink the punch. I agree with unions to an extent but there comes a time when there greed makes them price themselves right out of the market, which is clearly the case here. If they can get that worked out they still have the government mandates to deal with, which at least for the next four years will be lacking in the common sense department. I hope they can figure all this out and come out stronger.

 

[NeMont]

Since I love betting I will make a bet with you guys that this 17 billion is just the first installment of many 10's of billions more. They will be back after the new congress and new president are seated and what they are getting now will be chump change

Oh well I guess borrowing money from China is okay if it is used to fuel the inflationary holocaust headed our way. ,

Nemont

 

[piper]

I hope you are wrong about them needing a lot more, since I owe 77 thousand on my house inflation wouldn't hurt me too much. Of course thats selfish thinking but deflation really scares me

 

[huntindude]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-08 AT 09:10PM (MST)[p]I don't want any of that action, theres no question they'll be back for more.

It isn't what a thing cost, it's what it pays, the number one rule of business. if loaning the money to the auto industry works and they survive to pay us back and in addition provide 3 million jobs with workers making a living wage and paying taxes it's golden investment not a hand out as you call it. and I'll be able to buy a new F-350 every other year rather than a nip rickshaw so I win too. will it work? who knows, what investment is 100% gauranteed? and you don't know it will fail either.

Inflation? like the first installment of the banker hand out hasn't already made that probable? and have you looked at what Japan and other nations are doing? they're coughing up cash to try some type of damage control themselves. this is a golbal thing, you want a world economy so you better play like the rest of the world or stay home.

 

[NeMont]

Piper,

Right now it isn't deflation it is forced liquidation of over valued assets.
when the trillions of new dollars, creare by fiat, cycle through there will be massive inflation. Why should you worry about inflation? Because it has destroyed the middle class throughout history. It is a silent tax on everybody. Yes those deepest in debt enjoy it but that enjoyment is like masterbation, it feels good at the time but in the end you are just screwing yourself.

It is a pathetic statement of what kind of country we are leaving to our kids.

Nemont

 

[piper]

Thats true, I think inflation is going to happen, I thought that before this latest mess, Im no expert on the economy, my personal long term stategy is to get out of debt and live as cheaply as possible and take time to enjoy life along the way, Im in a quandry as where to live eventually, maybe a foreign country? My fear about letting things work themselves out is massive suffering by working class Americans, back to surfdom and peons, huge inequality in the standard of living for different classes of citizens, there is nothing to stop the health care industry from taking 25% or more of GDP as we all have to have it, we have to have energy and without laws we can be taken to the cleaners, if land ownership becomes more concentrated then the many work for the few, so in the end what I don't want to see is this depression leading to more inequality between classes.

 

[cmiddleton]

where was my bailout?
i had to downsize,cut my own throat, almost bankrupt my household and rebuild back.
we survived and are back in the black. the banks and auto industries should do the same.
I'm just now getting the home front back on track.
i cut my own wages $10 under union scale went on salary no more overtime pay which i still work.i had bills on that money i still had to pay and a new debt for the company of $1000 a month.
i want my bail out now!!!!
all this due to taxation.
our choice was close the doors or buy it then pay 47% in taxes.
this year we made money and saved 182,000 in the bank but our taxes came up to 160,000 this year.40,000 a 1/4
heck they could at least pay off my credit cards at home. I've never had a bonus not alone a million dollar income or even a hundred thousand dollar income

 

[huntindude]

The right wing economic principles would have us looking like Mexico or any other nation with haves and have nots. I don't believe in Robin Hood steal from the rich and give to the poor politics but I don't believe in the long term that unregulated let the chips fall business will work either.

There has to be a balance between letting those who excel reap the rewards they deserve and between letting them become a minority of elitists controlling the peasants. so far the dems are too anti rich guy and the republicans want him to rule the world, will we find that balance coming out of what appears to be a probable depression is the question.

Once again I'll bring up my monopoly game anology, let our industry fail as some on here say should happen and the game just got a lot tougher for 3 million players and those who's jobs they'll now be competing for. to prolong the game there has to be someone screwing around not playing by the rules or it's over too soon, maybe that's the governments job.

 

[proutdoors]

Good choice of GAME comparison since out monetary system is funny money just like in Monopoly, mainly because PRIVATE bankers have a monopoly on the money and how much is in
curculation.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[NeMont]

The coming inflationary disaster is going to guarantee that there will be greater inequality in incomes. It will guarantee a disappearance of the middle class.

Look at every country that has debased their currency. The elite did just fine but the middle class in every case ceased to exist. The US is not immune from becoming a third world country. Inflation is a silent tax on everyone. The elite have the ability, connections and wealth to protect their assets and incomes from most of the destructive nature of inflation. The middle class does not enjoy such advantages.

You think gas prices put the squeeze on everyone just wait. The auto bailout is just in the down payment phase we will throw many more Billions at them.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

What can the wealthy do or buy to protect themselves better than anyone else? I can see where they could do more because they had more in the first place but but the dollar is still the dollar.

We will see some degree of inflation I can't see how it can be avoided at this point, but to say the auto loans are responsible is like saying cow burps and farts are causing global warming. the banker bailout and the plan to jump start the economy with federal projects will make the auto loans look like pocket change.

The horse has left the barn, nailing the gate shut with railroad spikes now is useless. we're way deep in debt and going to get much deeper, plan for yourself accordingly.

 

[NeMont]

HD,
The wealthy and elite have the ability first of all to go to the politicians and use the age old game of rent seeking. Getting their piece of public largesse which is unavailable to the middle class.

They also have access to more sophisticated financial vehicles, have inside connections on when and where to move their money. They also have the ability to physically move and set up shop in a more ideal location or country. Look into the history of every country where hyper inflation took root, the middle class was destroyed, the wealthy and elite either came to owned all the means of production, plus the land or took their money out of the country and put it in a safer place.

People who want what is going because, "It helps the middle class", are just slitting the middle classes throat one small cut at a time.

You can think this is a great thing but it isn't. Time will prove me to be correct and all the wasted resources spent on propping up businesses could have been used to feed the soup lines it helped create.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

I'll give you the fact the super rich have better connections and information, but after all that's why they're super rich rather than plain old rich in the first place.

You don't seem to think anything the government is doing even in a bipartisan mannor is correct, so what should they do? how do we let the chips fall where they may without losing what's left of american industry to cheaper overseas competition? this is the flaw in your plan of doing nothing in my opinion, if it all stayed in house I'd agree with you.

 

[NeMont]

No I believe the flaw is in your thinking. You believe that everything will be lost to foreign competition. I believe and history backs me up that debasing your currency always leads to destruction of the middle class. By allowing the a free market to let the cream rise to the top and take risks the country would be better off. There is a ton of historical data that bears out the fact that the markets work. You are of the belief that there are no competent people in the U.S. to take the place of the incompetent. I believe exactly the opposite, I believe if allowed to function properly the market would ensure that U.S. based auto makers could not only compete but also flourish. This will only happen if the excess within the industry, by both labor and management are removed. Politicians are horrible at managing such things yet they are aiding and abetting the corporations and rewarding poor management and bad union contracts.

By printing trillions of dollars and intervening in the markets the U.S. government not only has burdened all future generation with debt the won't be able to pay off, unless the dollar is worthless, but they guarantee that the elite and rich will own a bigger piece of the pie and the middle class will be destroyed. It is not rocket science all one has to do is have a basic understanding of history, capital and what happens when money is created via fiat. That is just a fact, there is no reason to argue it because the outcome of these actions is not only foreseeable, it inevitable.

Anyone who pulls for these bailout in order the help the middle class probably believes they are helping but that is not the case.

I think the government reaction should be to make funds available for education grants to return to school for those who want, also retraining into other trades for those who want to, assisting with moving expense perhaps and for those employees too old to retrain or return to school there needs to be a social net that allows them at least some of their retirement benefits in order to be able to live adequately. That would be moral, far cheaper and in the end the taxpayer would get something, ie a better trained workforce. Plus there is a strong belief and basis of law that education funding is very much a government function. Propping up business is not a government function.

Just because Washington can come to a bipartisan agreement does not make what they are doing right. You will be okay because you own land but cheering on these bailout means that you also are cheering on destroying anyone who lives on a fixed income or is holding paper. The middle class always loses whenever inflation takes hold, that is not a debatable fact, history proves it every time.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

Here you go with history again, I'm a history buff but the lessons we're learning today have little history to rely on.

In the last 75 years the USA was basically the world economy, the rest of the world moved to our step. now with our debt and the fact we're just a player though a big one, we can't say just how this will play out . what I think you fail to see with your idealistic capitolist values is we are in survival mode and in uncharted territory.

I believe in captolism, but I'm thinking at the moment saving our economy from world takeover might require us to stray a little from the basics. we've been selling out to the rest of the world way too fast in my opinion during the good times, now they'll pick our bones clean if we sit on our thumbs and look stupid.

There are no good options, we'll never know how your way would have turned out, but it's safe to say we're going to feel pain either way.

 

[proutdoors]

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9787

"Getting access to taxpayer money would be akin to giving an alcoholic the key to a liquor cabinet. It also would be bad for American taxpayers and the American economy. For instance:

*

A bailout will hurt the overall economy by misallocating resources. When politicians grant special favors to a certain industry or a particular union, such decisions necessarily mean that market forces are being replaced by special-interest deal-making. This type of interference with free markets is why nations such as France, Germany and Japan tend to grow more slowly and enjoy less prosperity.

But if America goes down this same path of government intervention, it is inevitable that we will suffer the same fate of stagnation and higher unemployment.
*

A bailout will encourage other industries to seek taxpayer handouts. The Wall Street bailout was a disaster in many ways, most notably as measured by the weak stock market and economic volatility. But another negative aspect of the bailout is that other industries have now decided that it is OK to stick their snouts in the public trough, as well.

First Wall Street's high fliers get a bailout. Now the inefficient management and union at the Big Three want a handout. Who will be next in line to pillage taxpayers? Giving handouts in exchange for political support is akin to getting high. Once politicians decide they like the buzz of campaign contributions, they'll turn into junkies with ordinary Americans footing the bill.
* A bailout is a perverse transfer from poor taxpayers to rich taxpayers. America's Founding Fathers surely never envisaged that the federal government would take money from one group of Americans and give it to another group. Yet much of the federal budget is devoted to redistribution programs."

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[huntindude]

All good points but not excatly in keeping with the times. if this logic had been used before we were $137,000 per family of 4 in national debt maybe it would have mattered.

This is the point, why oppose saving 3 million american jobs with money that's already down the tube to nowhere anyway? we can't even get an accounting of where the 350 billion we've given the banks has gone and you're screaming like mashed cats about 17 billion of that next 350 billion dollar banker installment saving our auto industry.

Where were you Dudly fiscal Dorights when Bush doubled the debt? nobody cares about the trillions we spent during the good times the last 7 years for....... what was it we spent the money on anyway? but now we're in a depression you can't get a grip on the idea of spending 17-50 billion of already spent money in the form of a loan program to save our auto industry.

We are going to rack up debt no matter what, if we did during the boom you can bet your butt we will during the bust. we can be employed debtors or unemployed unproductive bigger debtors, sitting on our butts hoping for the best gaurantees the later.