B Joe Coy convicted

littlebighorn

littlebighorn

Long Time Member
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I was sorry to see the following news. I always thought B Joe was a stand up outfitter.
I guess it goes to show that no one is above the law.

"The owner of Yellow Creek Outfitters was convicted recently of hunting violations that included his failure to report the waste of a bighorn sheep and outfitting in unauthorized areas, among other charges. Joe Coy was ordered to pay $2,820 in fines and to relinquish his 2012 outfitter license for violating five Wyoming Game and Fish regulations, including guiding out-of-state hunters."
 
Yeah Rick....I heard of these charges a while ago...but this is the first I have heard of a conviction! Seems to be allot of this happening among outfitters now days!...Sad!
 
From what I read this guy has been violating numerous laws for at least the last 5 or 6 years.
 
Sad deal for sure.

He is like Outfitter of the Year alot with WSF/FNAWS.

Always a pleasant fellow to me.

Who is next? Garth Carter?

Robb
 
I hunted sheep with B Joe in 2006 after I drew a tag. I can tell you 1st hand the guy is an amazing outfitter, guide, cowboy,friend. I did not experience anything fishy or illegal on the hunt. It was a trip I re live with great memories almost everyday.I have since hunted with him 3 additional times for deer/antelope and again a 1st class experience.Nothing that would ever come close to being shady or against G&F rules.

For those of you that do not know B Joe, Last year at a Fundraiser for my daughter Eva who has Rett Syndrome, B Joe donated a hunting trip at the event. It raised Thousands of dollars towards our goal for a potential cure. It didnt stop there, B Joe got on a plane and flew to New York to personally auction off the hunt at the Gala event. Who does that?....Only a good person with a big heart. It was the highlight of the night and although a hunting trip wasnt the best item for most in attendence, they were amazed that a cowboy from Wyoming, who I know busts his A$$ everyday to make a living, could do such a great unselfish generous thing. I can never thank B Joe enough for what he has done for me and my family.

Although the charges he was convicted of are illegal. I get it. To me they seem pretty weak and petty. I know when we were cutting and caping my Ram on the mountain at midnight, exhausted and wet, looking over our shoulders for the grizzly bears we had seen that day, we may have left a little rib meat on the carcass as well...illegal???

Does it mean you strip the guy of his license and ability to earn a living? Not sure. In my book, No. He has done too many good things for hunters through FNAWS and RMEF and other organizations. More than the average outfitter I'm sure. I wonder how many of those outfitters have left a little rib or neck meat out on the mountain.

I look forward to hunting with B Joe again.

Thanks
Al Fini
 
Kinda like getting your truck inspected, it is never perfct and they can allways find something.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-12 AT 11:08AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-12 AT 11:05?AM (MST)

First of all these arent allegations, these are CONVICTIONS.

Leaving rib meat is not illegal in Wyoming...neither is leaving the neck.

Wyoming's wantan waste laws make about the most sense of any I've ever seen...4 quarters above the knee, backstraps and tenderloins are the requirement.

What happened here, which it sounds pretty likely it did, is wayyyy past leaving portions that are LEGAL to leave.

Producing 12 pounds of meat from a mature bighorn ram is 100% wanton waste no matter how much anyone tries to say it isnt.

Its also fair to note that the charges of illegally guiding a NR hunter with a resident guide license (you cant charge with these, they are intended to be used to take family and friends into wilderness) is totally being ignored.

When you get a resident guide license, you sign a waivor saying you wont, and cant, charge anyone who you sign off for.

Any outfitter should be held to the highest standards of the wildlife laws, not knowingly skirting around the edges of them. They are making a profit from the publics resources...they need to be held to high standards. If they fail to comply, they need their license revoked, period.

I dont care how good of a guy any outfitter is, if they break or ignore wildlife laws, they deserve to be gone.
 
i was checking out there website, under the photo gallery i looked at the sheep and seen jim shockey. under goats i seen john porter..

im little confused why john porter would be in the picture when he runs his own outfitting business..

from what i read yellow creek can still hunt but only on blm land. he is not allowed on any forest service grounds for not sure how long cause he broke so many rules. is was quite the story in the paper
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-12 AT 12:28PM (MST)[p]MisterTwister stated: "Although the charges he was convicted of are illegal. I get it. To me they seem pretty weak and petty."

The convictions were for only bringing 20# of edible meat out from a BigHorn Sheep, for outfitting illegally on the National Forest when he had no license to do so, and for guiding for profit when he only had a resident guide license under which you sign an oath that you will take no remuneration for doing so. It looks like a lot more than a little rib and neck meat was left on the mountain! With that and other violations that it sounds like he committed, he doesn't sound like he was operating as the great guy he may have once been! That sure doesn't sound like things that are "weak and petty" to me, regardless of what he did for your daughter, so it sounds like the penalties were appropriate!!!
 
Yep...this pretty much sums it up Treedagain....I heard of these allegations back in 2009-2010...so with the conviction, it has come full circle....
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-12
>AT 12:28?PM (MST)
>
>MisterTwister stated: "Although the charges he
>was convicted of are illegal.
>I get it. To me
>they seem pretty weak and
>petty."
>
>The convictions were for only bringing
>20# of edible meat out
>from a BigHorn Sheep, for
>outfitting illegally on the National
>Forest when he had no
>license to do so, and
>for guiding for profit when
>he only had a resident
>guide license under which you
>sign an oath that you
>will take no remuneration for
>doing so. It looks
>like a lot more than
>a little rib and neck
>meat was left on the
>mountain! With that and other
>violations that it sounds like
>he committed, he doesn't sound
>like he was operating as
>the great guy he may
>have once been! That
>sure doesn't sound like things
>that are "weak and petty"
>to me, regardless of what
>he did for your daughter,
>so it sounds like the
>penalties were appropriate!!!


That little meat is either pure laziness or someone shot the animal all to pieces and subsequently ruined the meat because they never should have been in the field with a weapon. Either way the punishment fits the crime, part of the hazards of hunting with people for money, you don't really know them at all.
 
If I read right the article stated that Coy lost his Forest Service permit in 2005. So that would mean to me that if he guided anybody for money on NFS land after that point he was breaking the law. Mistertwister, if you went sheep hunting with Coy in 2006 and he guided you for pay on NFS land then he was actually illegally guiding you since he has not had a permit to operate on the Shoshone NF since 2005. Not sure if Im missing something but I wonder how many people he guided on forest service since 05'. Don't know the guy personally, but know he is a renowned outfitter in the Cody area, but to me he broke some pretty serious laws.
 
WYO---Not only that, but the Wyoming statute is very clear that it's also a misdemeanor violation for the hunter to hire an unlicensed guide! They are both guilty. I wonder where Jim Shockey and Larry Weishuhn hunted with this guy because they are both listed as references on his website and the photo gallery shows Jim with a Bighorn Ram he took with his muzzleloader.
 
Were the hunters convicted of anything? I'm not sure the fine would mean much to an auction tag purchaser, but loss of hunting rights in a wildlife violater compact state might... 12 pounds of meat alone might not mean a crime if something like a grizzly got on it overnight before they could get it to hanging trees, but full cape and just backstraps sounds fishy..
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-12 AT 07:12AM (MST)[p]264mag (498 posts)
Mar-04-12, 10:00 AM (MST)
16. "RE: B Joe Coy convicted"
TopGun,seems with a bighorn harvest that the fish and game would have caught on to it.


They did Walt! When he and the hunters took the Ram in tow days after the kill to have the G&F plug the horns and take data, which is required of all sheep killed, they could only produce 20# of meat. If you read the article, he had so many violations over the years on NF land that they suspended his outitting license on the Shoshone NF in 2005. It appears that he may have kept right on outfitting illegally until all these violations came to a head, including getting that resident guide license that you sign and state that no recompense is being taken. He took $8,500 from a guy he guided under that license, a clear and serious violation. It looks to me like he got off pretty light for everything they nailed him on. It sure doesn't look good for the industry as a whole when a guy pulls that kind of stuff. If the G&F really pressed the matter, they could probably go back to 2005 when he lost his license and issue misdemeanor citations against every hunter that went with him. The Wyoming statute specifically states that it is illegal to hire an unlicensed guide unless they are guiding you on their own private property. They may not be doing that because of the expenses involved and most clients probably don't live in Wyoming, which would be expensive citing them for something that has minor penalties.
 
From the sound of it he might have some great personal qualities but the law is the law.
Just because someone is a "good" person and a "good" outfitter doesn't allow them to operate above the law.
I wouldn't want to be involved with an outfitter who operates illegally.
I'm sure he isn't the poster child for the oufitting industry but he is another example of the corrupting effect of money on some people.
Zeke
 
Sorry for the highjack but I have a question regarding WY game laws. What if a bear gets to your animal before you do and you can't get the minimum amount of meat off it for F&G purposes?
 
I suspect you'd better have some photos of what happened. I ran into this situation on a caribou hunt in Alaska. I was lucky because the warden flew over the kill site and saw the mess. He gave me a "pass" when he check me back at the lodge.

Get some photos or be willing to return to the site with the warden.
Zeke
 
Ever heard of a camera?

Ever heard of trees, rope, and game bags?

Ever heard of being prepared to pack an animal out the same day you shoot one?

I understand that sometimes there arent many options, but if you're hunting with at least one other person...you should be able to recover an entire sheep between 2 people.
 
I agree with Buzz. Especially on sheep, 2 people can/should pack it out THAT day... or night if it's late.

I've only lost part of 2 animals... ever. One was that caribou which I partially packed out in the dark only to return and find the balance claimed by a bigger predator. The other was a coues deer which I partially packed out and the coyotes ate the entire balance of meat in one night.

I felt bad in both cases but I had done everything I thought prudent.

Zeke
 
Here's more $0.02, for what it's worth....if a predator does get on an animal overnight, I would take back evidence of that rather than only a couple of backstraps. A few chewed-on bones, hide, other parts of the carcass if available. At least make an effort to prove your case, maybe ?? (just a thought).

I suppose this wouldn't be possible if one is guilty in the first place, though.
 
i was reading the paper again about this and it stated in 2008 they got a mountain goat and zero pounds of meat and also while guiding a non-resident illegally for money they got a ram and again no meat. busted.
 
So... Meat packing is extra on top of the $8500 guide fee? Plus, you could be busted game and fish for hiring the dude who defrauded you that he had the proper permits? I wonder how many actually call the state licensing board to check an outfitters credentials?
 
>So... Meat packing is extra on
>top of the $8500 guide


not sure why the meat was not packed out. i am curious to know the whole story. the paper stated when the ram was taken to the game and fish for plugging the horns and the game and fish asked to see the meat and they had nothing to prove.


Coy also got busted for outfitting in areas where other outfitters har rights. on top of that there was dozens of forest service tickets.
 
Not quite the same, but reminds a bunch about that crap Lineberger pulled up there about 20 years ago. Too bad the punishment isn't harsher than what they seem to give out to some of these scumbag outfitters.
 
I'd still rather share a campfire with B Joe Coy than a NFS thug....



JB
497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
B Joe is a great guy and a great outfitter and just like when Lewton got busted a few years ago you need to read between the lines. Dont believe anything you read in the newspapers or in court documents for that matter.
It sounds to me like this was all caused by the Forest service denying B joes permit and that may have been due to some stupid rule they have that requires outfitters to apply years in advance. Or it may have been that the recreation planner for the forest service was himself an outfitter and abused his discreation in denying Coys permit because he may have not wanted to compete with Coy. Maybe his brother in law or buddy was a competing outfitter.
I do not know what all the prior violations were for but they may have been of the wrong color hat or no diaper on your mule variety. This case seems caused primarily by "no permit" which may be no fault of B joes. Some moron in some office. My bet is that B joes got more class and better ethics than the guy who denied his permit.
As far as the meat all I read was that the backstraps were all they had with them when they checked in the ram. Perhaps they donated the bulk of the meat to a neighbor and only kept the backstraps for themselves...who knows
 
>B Joe is a great guy
>and a great outfitter and
>just like when Lewton got
>busted a few years ago
>you need to read between
>the lines. Dont believe anything
>you read in the newspapers
>or in court documents for
>that matter.
> It sounds to me
>like this was all caused
>by the Forest service denying
>B joes permit and that
>may have been due to
>some stupid rule they have
>that requires outfitters to apply
>years in advance. Or it
>may have been that the
>recreation planner for the forest
>service was himself an outfitter
>and abused his discreation in
>denying Coys permit because he
>may have not wanted to
>compete with Coy. Maybe his
>brother in law or buddy
>was a competing outfitter.
> I do not
>know what all the prior
>violations were for but they
>may have been of the
>wrong color hat or no
>diaper on your mule variety.
>This case seems caused primarily
>by "no permit" which may
>be no fault of B
>joes. Some moron in some
>office. My bet is that
>B joes got more class
>and better ethics than the
>guy who denied his permit.
>
> As far as the
>meat all I read was
>that the backstraps were all
>they had with them when
>they checked in the ram.
>Perhaps they donated the bulk
>of the meat to a
>neighbor and only kept the
>backstraps for themselves...who knows

Well there you go....not guilty.
 
Not only not guilty but he should get an award for possibly donating the meat to a worthy cause. Maybe the neighbor did not know he needed to go pack out the donated meat himself. Maybe he should have gotten the ticket? Lots of maybe's in the defense weakly stated by Trammer in his 1 post.
 
What is weak Romulus is assigning blame to someone who has done nothing blameworthy. Show me how B joe harmed the resource, wildlife, the land or another person and I will agree with you. The only story of harm that I have heard is how B joe was harmed by having his permit denied and that how denying his permit caused the whole mess in the first place.
Being banned from using public land to make a living is extreme and should only be done for a serious offense. Dogooders like yourself ought to take a good look in the mirror because being American and being a criminal means the same thing today. If you are offended at the idea of B joe wasting meat and I am not convinced he did you probably despise Teddy Roosevelt. Most of what Teddy shot was left to rot. Maybe a swat team ought to raid your house and haul you off to jail next time one of your kids pushes away a plate of dear meat.
 
Give me a friggin break! The guy was convicted of multiple violations of G&F laws and NFS laws in a court of law after a lengthy, in-depth investigation. The charges have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and they were or he would have been found not guilty by a Judge or jury. The guy lost his NFS license to outfit/guide in the Shoshone due to multiple violations over the years, not for having a hat that was the wrong color, LOL! He then evidently continued to represent himself as legally licensed to guide in the Shoshone and took people there illegally. Beides that he took at least one paying person on a guided hunt for a lot of money and was using a resident license that you have to sign off on saying you are not receiving ANYTHING for doing it. He was also convicted TWICE for wanton waste of big game meat on a goat and mountain sheep approximately 5 years apart. Yea, he's just a great guy and an excellent representative of the outfitter/guide industry---NOT! How can a person with that many convictions for so many different things be considered a great guy by anybody unless they themselves don't feel that the laws apply to him or them!
 
So with your logic I should be able to waste meat because B Joe wasted meat and he is a great guy and Teddy Roosevelt wasted meat and he is a great guy. I assigned blame to no one. He may or may not be a great guy. But the facts are that he broke the law more than once and was convicted. Great guys break the law as no one is perfect. Your attempt at defending him has not helped. In most instances in our country people are given to many chances. If he needed the use of public land to make a living he should have made damn sure to follow ALL the rules not just the ones that suited him.
 
Topgun you are right to a point. In this country our constitution provides that elected officials are the people who are to pass laws.But in B joes case a busybody at NFS took it upon himself to pass a law. A law that applied only to B joe.A decision that may not have even been based in truth. Such laws should not garner much respect because they are not passed by our representatives.
I have had land use permits denied.Once for "unsure what impact applicants business would have on owl habitat" Huh? and another for "not made in a timely fashion just 4 months from the proposed dates of use" only to have the same office issue another outfitter a permit in just 48 hours.Seems 48 hours is timely and legal for some and 4 months is not timely and is illegal for others.Topgun tell me how much respect we should have for this timely filing of an application law?
Additionally a person with that many convictions for so many things should be considered to be a great guy by everybody because so many of our ordinary behaviors are now "crimes". We are all criminals.Topgun I bet you have as many convictions or as much criminal activity in your past as B joe.
As for me I would go to war with B joe Coy or John Lewton or Ryan Hatch. I wouldn't with a Forest Service Planner who had ever denied an American the right to use public land without a history of ever causing harm to resources. That is a shamefull thing to do. I am still waiting for someone to point out any harm caused by B joe.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-12 AT 11:17AM (MST)[p]"Additionally a person with that many convictions for so many things should be considered to be a great guy by everybody because so many of our ordinary behaviors are now "crimes". We are all criminals. Topgun I bet you have as many convictions or as much criminal activity in your past as B joe."


I'm going to say this in plain unvarnished English---You're full of chit!!! We aren't all criminals and I was a LE Investigator with the state of MI for over 30 years before retirement with two minor speeding tickets when I was a kid barely out of school. That's a far cry from this SOB who has a string of violations that sound as long as my leg! Take it somewhere else with this BS about the guy being as great as sliced bread and he's "just being persecuted" BS, LOL!
 
So, Trammer, just wondering, what "ordinary behaviors" do you have that are now "crimes"?

Leaving meat on the mountain doesn't do any "harm"? I've got news for you, if that became legal, hunting would soon become illegal. C'mon man, you're stretching this harm thing just a bit, don't you think?
 
The problem being it is impossible to even know let alone follow the rules.Topgun at least you partially admit to your criminal past. Are you saying that you havent driven a car faster than the speed limit since you were a kid barely out of school? Or are you saying that you have not been adjudicated for your crimes? You have basically admitted that you make your living from dirty money. Money that for the most part has been extorted from people under the threat of imprisonment: unlike B joe Coy who earns an honest living. That fact alone makes you seem a bigger SOB to me.
I commit crimes everyday and normally start early every morning in my sleep.Many of my hobbies that are ordinary behaviors now are crimes too.For example playing poker or flying my ultralight.
For some time I have wanted to hunt a Polar Bear but as an American I cant.I guess I can I just cant bring it home.People from other countries can.Their government doesnt try to manage the wildlife of other countries.
My countries laws that wont allow me to bring my Polar Bear home or play cards or fly my own airplane dont mesh well with my patriotism here in the land of the free.....does anyone know if the public or any of Coys hunters ever filed a complaint against him?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-12 AT 03:22PM (MST)[p]"You have basically admitted that you make your living from dirty money. Money that for the most part has been extorted from people under the threat of imprisonment: unlike B joe Coy who earns an honest living. That fact alone makes you seem a bigger SOB to me."



You're not only full of chit, but you are also nuts and need to see a Doctor!!!
 
So now are you disputing that tax dollars that fund the careers and extended retirements of law enforcement investigators are not extracted from people under the threat of imprisonment? When I file my taxes this week next to the frowny face on the form where it says I am to send in a check are not the words IF YOU WANT TOO. The frowny face represents my face as I am being hauled of to prison if I do not. You cops have an amazing ability to lie to yourselves and everyone else. You need a doctor and someone to teach you how to earn an honest living.
 
I didn't say I was a cop, but I will say again that you're nuts the way you ramble on with all this BS!!! If you don't like where you live and where you're free to post all this BS, I suggest you take a plane and get the he** out of the US!!! You sound like one miserable SOB the way everything in this country is against you! Get a life and STFU!!!
 
what you did say was that you were a "Law Enforcement Investigator with the state of MI for over 30 years" thats a cop in case you dont understand. I did not say I didnt like where I lived. I did imply that I am unhappy with worthless cops like yourself destroying our freedom and quality of life in America. I am old enough to remember good cops and good police work. When cops helped people. B jos story is typical for the times we live in where cops are the cause of the trouble.
Yes we should have laws against wasting meat. They should be enforced like the laws against adultery because whos meat is it anyway? Didnt the state sell the sheep to the hunter with a hunting license? Isnt a hunting license sortof like a bill of sale? When you throw away food that has spoiled in your refrigerator do you think society should get the police involved? Wasting meat is an important ethical issue for sure but I do not feel it rises to the level of a crime. I bet nothing B joe did was wrong or harmful. I remain open minded if anyone can show me it was. Is B joe blameworthy? Only monsters would fix blame on someone who was not.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-12 AT 02:12PM (MST)[p]
You have no idea what my job was and yet you're telling me what I am and that I don't understand, LOL! You don't know me from a can of paint and yet you're stereotyping me with a bunch of others in another mindless rant! Now you're blaming cops for the outfitter's violations and extending it to say they are the cause of all of our problems, which is absolute BS! Your rant is that you don't like or agree with anything that has to do with law enforcement for some pretty assinine reasons, just as your statements on wanton waste completely contradict themselves when it is a crime under the Wyoming statutes. If Coy was innocent of the charges on either the goat or sheep, there is no reason he couldn't have shown why they didn't comply with the law and bring out all the meat required under the wanton waste statute. He obviously didn't have a legitimate reason and that's why he was convicted both times. Your last sentence tells me you really need some mental help! Just keep posting away because the more you post the bigger ass you're making of yourself and verifying that!!!
 
Topgun as I read about the case Coys conviction is not for "wasting meat" it was for failing to report. It was a crime of omission rather than a crime of commission.And the other charge is also an ommision Failing to have an NFS permit. But didnt the NFS fail to issue Coy a permit? Who did wrong here? Maybe the NFS agent should be changed with failing to issue Coy a permit. After all the reason he didnt have one wasnt because he didnt apply or wasnt qualified it was because he was denied. Topgun I think the next time you apply for a drivers license even if you are fully qualified I think you should be denied,by some jerk who has been annoited; gifted with disgreation. then we can all watch the subsequent crimes snowball on you. It seems doing nothing is crime itself.And yes like I said before holding others up for judgement and penalty without a basis in harmcausing or wrongdoing is a shameful human tendancy that wreaks of a witch hunt and is far more troubling than anything Coy has done. I have noticed Topgun you have evaded every relevant question I have asked you. Do you have a hard time thinking for yourself? Maybe you are just not that bright.
 
Not sure what you're reading...

CODY, Wyo. ? The owner of Yellow Creek Outfitters was convicted in February of hunting violations that included his failure to report the waste of a bighorn sheep and outfitting in unauthorized areas, among other charges.

Joe Coy was ordered to pay $2,820 in fines and to relinquish his 2012 outfitter license for violating five Wyoming Game and Fish regulations, including guiding out-of-state hunters.

He also received one year's probation and lost his hunting, fishing and trapping privileges for three years.

Kathy Crofts, principal wildlife investigator with Game and Fish, said that while Coy was a licensed outfitter at the time, he was allowed to operate only on pre-approved private land and on lands managed by Bureau of Land Management.

Crofts said that in 2005, Coy's commercial operating permit for the Shoshone National Forest was not renewed because of a long history of repeated violations with the Forest Service.

Since he could not outfit on the Shoshone, Coy obtained a resident guide permit to take a Wisconsin hunter on a bighorn sheep archery hunt in August 2010.

He accepted $8,500 from the Wisconsin hunter, which is illegal under a resident guide permit.

"To obtain a resident guide permit, a person must confirm that they are not accepting any compensation, either directly or indirectly, for their services," Crofts said. "The Wisconsin hunter was clearly a paying client, not a family friend."

In September 2010, Coy outfitted two other sheep hunters on the Shoshone National Forest. During the hunt, Coy saw his client leaving edible portions of a harvested bighorn sheep in the field and failed to report it as required by law.

Both men were hunting with a governor's bighorn sheep license purchased at auction for $54,000 and $56,000.

"By law, hunters are required to retrieve all edible portions of big-game animals from the field after harvest," Crofts said. "In addition, if an outfitter or professional guide observes a game law violation, they have a legal responsibility to report it to Game and Fish."

When the sheep was checked at the Game and Fish office two days after harvest, Coy and the sheep hunter could produce only the head, a full body cape and a 12-pound bag of meat containing the backstraps from the animal.

"Coy knowingly allowed waste of the sheep, failed to report it to Game and Fish, and even paid for his hunter's fine," Crofts said. "There are many law-abiding hunters who would be grateful for the opportunity to hunt a bighorn sheep and be thrilled to take all the meat from a successful harvest, not just the trophy parts."

Coy also pleaded guilty for failure to report the waste of a mountain goat that one of his clients harvested in 2008.

The 18-month investigation was a joint effort of Game and Fish and the Shoshone National Forest
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-12 AT 08:47PM (MST)[p]"I have noticed Topgun you have evaded every relevant question I have asked you. Do you have a hard time thinking for yourself? Maybe you are just not that bright."

I'm beginning to wonder if you're able to comprehend anything and now you're stating that I'm not answering your "relevant" questions. You haven't made one relevant statement regarding this issue yet, so how can I answer anything when there are no reasonable or "relevant" questions being asked!
It's very obvious that you have mental problems that cause you to feel persecuted by any type of law enforcement official and it appears that you feel that we don't need any laws or enforcement officials to see that violations are properly dealt with. You don't think wanton waste of a game animal should be a crime and ask if people should be prosecuted for throwing spoiled food from a refrigerator. Say what, LOL! Now you want to know why I haven't answered your questions, but I don't know how to answer anyone that comes up with the BS you do because it's impossible to get down to your low level thought processes. Even with the complete rehash of everything Coy did in the BuzzH post, you'll come up with a reason that none of the violations should have been violations and/or prosecuted because Coy is such a great guy and everyone is just out to get him, LOL! Yea, right!
 
Could it be that Trammer may have had his own run in with the Law?...maybe the same type of violations that B Joe has been convicted of?..Just a thought!....LOL!
 
Trammer's defense of that scumbag makes you wonder if he's not family or a close friend. I'd have thrown Coy's azz in the can for a year or two on top of what they gave him...
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-12 AT 07:59AM (MST)[p]+1 With that many violations over a number of years on a lot of different issues, he should have had his sorry azz put in the slammer for a while! Oh, but wait. According to trammer these were just violations of "omission", rather than "commission", LOL!
 
sounds like TRAMMER = B JOE COY or at least has a man crush on him.....you can justify it any dumba$$ way you want, but he is GUILTY in the eyes of the law and 99.9% of any rationale human being...let it go...take off your tin foil hat, the short bus just pulled up to take you to get an ice cream cone




How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
Trammer!...I have been hunting since I was old enough to hold a rifle. I have not only been a Big Game Guide but a Taxidermist for the past 35 years...I would venture to guess that I have been de-boning and packing animals off the mountain probably long before you were old enough too hold your own ##### to take a piss!..
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-12 AT 01:28PM (MST)[p]trammer---I've been hunting since 1953 and can't even count the number of animals to answer your question! Here are two bulls shot by buddies in the last two seasons that I helped backpack out of the back country. The big one took us 1 1/2 days and 4 trips. The 4x4 mulie was 2 miles from the truck and I backpacked him out in two trips by myself last year and I'm 64 years old. Now go take a hike, as you're getting on our nerves, LOL!

55682011_trip_105.jpg


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nice guy or not the sucker is guilty for many things. being nice to customers is how he earns his tips.
 
As are you nfh. I am not following you on the tip thing.
Thank you Kevinp and topgun for answering my last question as a follow up I would like to ask Did you take the rib meat, the heart and liver, did you flesh the hide and save the scrapings,did you save all the fat including the globs and balls of fat from inside the cavity? Did you pack the bones out and have them rendered by a meat processor?
 
Trammer, your a dumba$$...get a clue and crawl back under your little rock...big diff between just packing out the back straps and packing out the bones and globs of fat....my guess is you are either B Joe Coy or a friend of his....nothing you say will change the fact that he is GUILTY, it sickens me to think he wasted the meat off that ram, pointless and stupid....shows he has no respect for the animals he helped harvest



How to start an argument online:
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The more you post, the nuttier you look trammer! If you couldn't even follow what nfh mentioned, you definitely need to take a hike and FYI what he was referring to was the fact that when Coy is making a lot of money on fees and tips from those two bigshots that didn't take the meat he didn't turn them in for that reason and got nailed for it. Omission or commission as you are spouting doesn't mean chit because they are both violation of the law. Incidentally, I'm not taking any more time on this thread to answer any more of your BS questions as I more than meet all the laws and am ethical in everything involving hunting. Anyway, as long as I met the law it's none of your f***ing business how much more I took out of the backcountry than required by law, so stick it where the sun don't shine. Two of us that have read your question have answered and made you look worse than you have been making yourself, so again I would ask that you seek mental help as you obviously have major problems!
 
Treedagain you missed again. because legally there is no difference in Wyoming they have but one statute that states "all edible portions" wasting a single edible portion and the whole animal is the same thing in Wyoming Legally. Probably not ethically.I would be interested in hearing more of the "saw his client leaving edible portions" One can only know what was wasted by inspecting the carcass itself. "they only had 12# of backstrap in possession when" is only misleading to fools such as you, and intended as a "shame them" tactic by by dishonest hypocrites in Law Enforcement, These Fish Pigs are nobodys trying to make themselves and others think that they are somebodys for having taken down the great B joe Coy.
Please do not mistake me for B joe Coy he is a far better person than me. For the 18 years that I have losely know him I have watched him serve wildlife conservation and his fellow sportsman at the Wild Sheep Convention. I have seen him donate more money than he has lately been accused of improperly charging money for. I have know him to love wild places and wildlife. I know him to be a hardworking salt of the earth guy who would do no harm to anyone or anything on earth.I have know him to respect the law even when the Law made no sense and was unjust. I know him to love his country and his state. I know him to be Kind to everyone, bighearted and charitable the kind of person you would want living next door. I am no B joe Coy. You bums most certainly arent. You are weak and easily swayed.Dogpilers. You need others to tell you what to think. Obviously the Fish Pigs have.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-12 AT 10:39PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-12 AT 10:36?PM (MST)

Trammer,

You said, "because legally there is no difference in Wyoming they have but one statute that states "all edible portions" wasting a single edible portion and the whole animal is the same thing in Wyoming Legally."

You're full of crap...try reading the regulations next time...and maybe your buddy B Joe Coy should as well.

(l) ?Edible portion of big game animal? means the meat of the front quarters as far down as the knees, meat of the hindquarters as far down as the hocks, and the meat along the backbone between the neck and hindquarters including the loins and tenderloins, excluding meat on the ribs and neck.

Is that clear enough for your trammer, straight out of the general regulations. Pay attention to the last 6-7 words of section (l) above. Its crystal clear what the edible portions are...and they dont include globs of fat, neck meat, rib meat, hide scrapings, or the heart and liver.

I've 2 nephews, one five and one seven...I'll get them to explain the law to you if you still fail to understand it.

Oh, and BTW, Coy was convicted. He admitted guilt and/or was found guilty in a court of law.

FACT.
 
"I have know him to respect the law even when the Law made no sense and was unjust".

the FACT that he knowingly and willingly left/wasted 98% of a sheep and a MTN goat on the MTN shows his respect for not only the law, but importantly the game you say he holds so dear to his heart....


How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-12 AT 07:26AM (MST)[p]Maybe this trammer poster is one of his daughters the way that last stupid post was put together! Whoever this trammer is has big problems that even a psychiatrist probably wouldn't be able to cure! When a person comes on a site and the only posts that are made are on this one topic and are so glaring and blatant for someone else, it has to be either a close relative or psycho, or both!
 
Profile name says its Brad Turner!...who knows...that could be an alias also....anyhow, whoever it is, they seem to be very emotional over the subject...especially the rants about the "Law" , the forest service, and the game and fish..these venemonous remarks leaves the poster with very little credibility!...Just my Opinion!
 
I certainly didn't intend for this post to turn into a pissing match between hunting enthusiasts!
I saw the story and was actually saddened by the fact that B Joe was convicted because I have talked to him personally and I think he has generally been a good outfitter. He has certainly been well respected.
As in all cases against anyone, there are always two sides to every story and if we knew all the facts and perspectives from each side, we would undoubtedly sing softer tunes to one another.
That being said, there is probably a lesson in it for all of us.
Happy hunting!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-12 AT 01:47PM (MST)[p]Sorry, but I completely disagree with you. First; this was no pissing match because trammer did not come up with anything but BS and psychotic remarks and rants in every single post he/she made regarding this thread! Second; while there may be two sides to a particular story, the facts in this particular situation show that Coy was cited NUMEROUS times for NUMEROUS types of violations regarding Federal NFS and State G&F laws. There is no getting around that fact and that makes him an habitual offender in any court of law! I will not dispute your "lesson learned" statement because the lesson is to not violate the laws that are on the books and you should have no problem getting along in society or with any of the authorities who are sworn to uphold the various laws that are in place for a purpose! As you mentioned in your OP: "I guess it goes to show that no one is above the law." Truer words were never spoken!
 
Thank You BuzzH, I stand corrected. I was quoting other comments from the thread and had not read Wyomings definitions. I hope you double checked to make sure that definition was for the statute Coy was convicted.
Treedagain, I dont think the hunters who were present when and if meat was wasted would agree with you that that 98% of the sheep and goat were wasted. Also I notice that you dont talk about the respect people are to have for one another but only for the game and the law. I find it hard to respect a law that is disrespectful of people or thier freedom.
Topgun to answer your first point. I have been reading the entertaining posts on this sight for years. Some of which are made by largely ignorant hunters like yourself.I usually bite my tounge.But to watch you guys beat a man who I know to be a good man while he is down was too much for me to stay silent.
Kevinp, Can you explain to me the connection between angry remarks and credibility or at least what makes you question my credibilty.The gap in what I am claiming and what you think is likely, could be caused by my credibility or your ignorance.
Topgun you seem to be the dumbest guy on this thread.Not surprising you spent your life in Law Enforcement.I liked what you were saying until your last 2 sentences.Then I almost threw up because that statement was why I got on this thread to begin with and there is no more false statement than that.
I know of 5 bighorn sheep that were flat out poached by Law Enforcement. Without consequence to the poachers.One was in the Lewton case when the undercover cop who was posing as Lewtons hunter poached the would be world record ram in Montana. All to bust Lewton for the same thing Coy was busted. I am not aware of any charges being brought against the Cop. There is another case in Utah where Jim Bates ( I think Jim is the father of the derelict Bill Bates who has almost singlehandedly caused the die off in the once famous North San Rafael sheep unit)who as I understand it illegally guided a Sheep hunter. Jim actually used the Fish and Game helicopter paid for by the taxpayers and shot a ram airborn from the helicopter.Jim was rewarded for his poaching by getting early retirement. This one actually made the papers but no charges were filed. In all 5 of the Poachings by Fish Pigs I am not aware of any being prosecuted. Because they are Fish and game agents it seems they are above the law. So an honest statement by you should have been: NO ONE SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW or even NO CIVILIAN HUNTERS ARE ABOVE THE LAW or I AM ABOVE THE LAW and YOU ARE NOT...just sayin....
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-12 AT 06:19PM (MST)[p]"Topgun you seem to be the dumbest guy on this thread"

You know trammer, I was starting to feel sorry for you, but after reading that last post with just more BS, including the above line, and the fact that you've been making all these assinine comments and now admit that you didn't even know the Wyoming statute that Coy was convicted of violating and that we're discussing, is more than laughable. In fact, it's absolutely pathetic, as is all the rest of your ranting about laws and law enforcement! You really do need to move to another country and see how good we have it here in the good old US of A!

Deerlove---Ain't that the truth, LOL! I have no idea why trammer has a problem when I made the statement that I agree with "Noone is above the law", but as irrational as he is, and continues to be, I'm sure if he has any direct dealings with law enforcement that it will get real ugly if he's like this with them!
 
He will end up in the same situation that his good old buddy is in. They apparently choose which laws they will follow. I guess the down on your luck part is that he was caught??
 
Yep, sort of like all these politicians that just keep coming back for more after they've been outed, LOL!!!
 
perhaps you would like to point out a fact I have been pummeled with. I have only been partially corrected factually by one poster.Take your best shot delmag1942.I have got chunks of guys like you in my stool
 
No seriously what I am saying about the Coy case is that it points out failures of State wildlife Managers to follow the north American Model for Wildlife Conservation.

First they destroyed one of its cornerstones. That wildlife may be killed only for legitimate reasons.
The primary legitimate reason to kill wildlife used to be for food or for MEAT. Now meat hunting is obsolete. Due in part from the States profiting from license sales. When licenses cost hundreds or thousands of dollars. Fifty six thuosand dollars in this case to be exact Meat hunting becomes a farse.
Good thing Sport and Trophy hunting,as well as fund raising for conservation are also legitimate reasons.

The second pilar of Wildlife Conservation that is not applied in the Coy case is that science is a crucial requirement. Science is suppose to be the basis for all Wildlife Policy.
The state has no business passing wildlife laws that are not based on science. From a strictly scientific standpoint one could argue that the meat should be required to be left in the field because when other predators find it they may be less inclined to hunt and kill another live animal. Wildlife could actually benefit from a law requiring meat to be left in the field for other wildlife to eat, strange as it sounds.

Another thing that stinks about the Coy case is how Law Enforcers essentially get to rob coy using the Law as a weapon. As restitution has or will be ordered to the tune of $8,500 per hunt or $17,000. The $17,000 will then go into a fund and be split up by the conservation officers themselves. They will doctor up phoney requisitions for claimed overtime on the weekends etc. and devour the fund like hyenas on a lion kill.

Now remember the premise of the licensing charge is that it was improper for Coy to be paid because he was not licensed. If you follow that logic one should conclude that the hunters should receive their money back. But the Law can overlook that requrement...provided it is them that splits up the loot.
 
I hope you're talking to yourself because you're the only one you'll ever convince regarding anything you post, LOL! You are so far out in left field it's unbelievable!
 
Trammer,

It seems you may be using a similar defense tactic from another famous hearing.

Please bear with me as I quote from Mr. Otter...

"Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did. But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America."

Now, please continue on how B Joe's conviction is really an indictment on Western Game Management, Law Enforcement and our freedom.

Thanks,

GK
 
even the other Law Coy was convicted of,Sportsmen should find offensive, not Coys behavior but the Law itself. The "failure to report" because the 5th amendment to our constitution provides that NO PERSON SHALL BE COMPELLED IN ANY CRIMINAL CASE TO BE A WITNESS AGAINST HIMSELF. So do you expect Coy to obey the little Law that requires him to report and ignore our Constitution as the Law Makers themselves have? I don't.

How often do you turn yourself in for your crimes?

When you dive into it deep boys I will take the side of Honest Sportmen in their struggle against an overbearing state anytime. I will also be the first one to string up a real poacher, a harmcauser or wrongdoer. I pitty those who cannot tell the difference.

The Coy case STINKS, STINKS STINKS
 
Wyoming is an "overbearing" state? Probably my favorite state to hunt in. Hell, I would move there for the right $. The only downside is the Wilderness restriction IMO.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-12 AT 12:49PM (MST)[p]I'm telling you that this guy needs to go see a Doctor really bad, as I've never seen a case of paranoia that is so obvious every time he posts!!! I agree wth you 100% delmag1942, in that I'd also be living in Wyoming in a heartbeat if my wife didn't wanted to stay so close to the kids and grandkid here in MI!

I guess ole trammer must really take pity on himself because it looks like he's the only one in this thread that this sentence of his applies too, LOL:

I pitty those who cannot tell the difference.
 
The fifth amendment is worthless to honest individuals. If you don't commit the crime, you don't have to use the 5th amendment to try and get out of it.
 
So you think it is Ok to break the law because you do not agree with it? He is being robbed, because he took the same amount from a client that legally he could not charge?? In what realm of reason is he being robbed???? If you speed you pay the piper.

You remind me of Ace Venture talking out his ass.
 
The money Coy was paid for the hunts was a voluntary transfer between two willing parties. That is honest.
Now if the State finds in court that the money was improperly paid, it should force Coy to repay the money to the hunters. Also arguably honest. But the state is only concerned with honesty when it is Coy getting the money. The state can overlook honesty...if the money is taken from Coy by force and split up by the State Troopers.
The state in taking the money by force from Coy and ignoring that it was dirty money to begin with is dishonest. Theft.It is more wrong than Coy having been paid voluntarily for work he actually did.
Again the Government had no good reason to deny Coys permit and outlaw his job and career in the first place. He was fully qualified as an outfitter. Discretion being given to the Forest Service Planner was the problem. Lucky for us the drivers license office does not have much Discretion when we renew our drivers license. They have a checklist and if you meet all the requirements objectivly on the checklist you are issued a license. Why should the Forest Service be any different?
 
problem being Shummy is that so many things are "crimes"
I guide in some areas when we are required literally to carry our crap around in baggies in our backpack. Yup turds, diarrhea, what ever comes out of your bum is required to be hauled out in your backpack.
Show me a hunter crapping in hole and burrying it and I will show you a criminal. It is flat out a crime to crap on or in the ground. Have you ever carried around a weeks worth of your crap in baggies in your backpack? Have you ever had one rupture and soak your camp in your own chit? I have. I have been reduced to a miserable turd trainer. I have to train my hunters how to turd in a baggie. Or if they wish poop on the ground and nurse the turd with a stick into the baggie.
The same good intentioned land managers also require a food handlers permit and that all food safety laws be followed. But food safety laws forbid carrying crap in backback containing food or meat after the kill. Some Laws actually prevent you from keeping other laws. What are you suppose to do? The Laws are so many and so wideranging. It is impossible to comply.
 
As a matter of fact I have carried around a baggie of poo, I have never had one leak on my stuff because I am not an idiot. You are plain wrong, it is not impossible to follow the laws, it can be hard, and it does require some study to keep up on everything. You've proven with your many statements of ignorance that you choose not to follow the laws, and the only thing you seem to study is excuses for your violations. I'm not sure why you can't see the facts, they have been repeatedly spelled out for you. He was not issued a permit because he had violated the laws many times, and clearly didn't qualify for a permit. It would work the same way with the issuance of a drivers license. As far as the Conservation Officers stealing the money, you are, yet again, plain wrong! You would like to see the money returned to the parties that paid it? You have to be kidding me. They, also commited a crime, why would they be given the money back? If I choose to buy drugs and then I get caught, they aren't going to refund my money! It's the same principal here, they were required to know the laws as well, and they either chose not to learn them, or not to follow them. Neither option is a valid excuse.
 
Shummy, Coy may have violated the Law many times. As have you. Why cant you or anyone else show me where He did anything contrary to Wildlife or any Natural Resource Conservation.
Coy did not lead poaching forays or build a cabin in a public wilderness Area. When you get to the bottom of it he probably pooped wrong. Hardly anything anyone should have their career or reputation destroyed over.
You were doing pretty good until you started comparing apples to oranges. In a drug deal ALL drug deals are illegal. Categorically all are wrong and refunding someones money could cause or encourage a deal with someone else. It involves a completely illegal product.
In Coys case the product or service in question was not wrong or illegal. The Illegal part was limited only to Coy. It was only illegal for Coy to charge money, but not others.
A better comparison would be if your bank wrongfully took $8,000 out of your account. Then if you complained and the bank refused to return your money citing some small fancy language in your contract. You call the police who investigate and determine the bank acted improperly and seize the cash. The police then take the money not returning it to you or the bank and spit it up amongst themselves.
If the Cops are so worried about the illegal transfer of money (and I submit they are not) why are they OK with it if they get to keep the money? They seem alright with the whole crime as long as they get the loot....definately wrong if Coy gets the loot.
 
Have zero beef with the argument here, as I haven't heard all the facts. However, Gomerking may have the best post of all time!!!
 
Trammer, again, you are just plain wrong. In ANY illegal deal, the whole deal is illegal, not just parts if it. You don't get to pick and choose. You made my argument even more valid. It's clear you have no real grasp for the law. When they wasted the meat, it clearly goes against wildlife conservation.
 
+1 ASB.....i just got done watching animal house and that is some funny CHIT..

P.S Trammer....your in need of a break from your jacked up reality....take a deep breathe, close your eyes, and try not to let the pink elephants run you over....



to start an argument online:
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ASB I am making comments about how Natural Resource Law Enforcement is out of control, has been overstepping its bounds for quite a while by making and enforcing laws that have little or nothing to do with Conservation.Remember no complaint was ever filed by the public or any of Coys hunters. I find it amusing how all of you concerned people show up afterwords.
As far as the meat wasting thing there likely was not any meat wasted. As I understand it Coy plead guilty. Coy plead guilty not because he was guilty but to avoid a trial. He plead guilty to avoid putting his hunters and friends threw a Pig circus.
Coy as the classy guy he is even paid the fines for the others involved. Coy plead guilty or no contest to all the charges including the "stacking" charges because the cops did have him by the balls on the permit charge. The heinous offense of making a living.He was going down either way.
Shummy and treedagain, I find your attitude concerning this matter to be in complete harmony with Nazis who were leading Jews to gas chambers. Unquestioning complete support of the law and law enforcement.I submit that my "delusional" attitude is more in harmony with this countys founders who did not support the British and thought that Britsish Law was BS.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-03-12 AT 02:28PM (MST)[p]You've overstepped your bounds equating me with Nazi's. You've just proven again what a scumbag you are, and earned yourself an enemy for life.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-03-12 AT 02:43PM (MST)[p]I told you guys that trammer is a paranoid, delusional nut job and that last post proves it. Comparing any of our members to the Nazis like he did in his last post should have him banned from this site for life. Then he would really have something to beitch about!!! He should have lived 100+ years ago when there were no laws and he would have been a happy camper and probably dead by the time was 21, LOL! To top it off this nut has guns!!!
 
its one thing to sit in the shadows and spout your opinion of a convicted criminal, convicted of wasting the meat of 2 trophy animals among other things, good guy in your opinion, just another dirtball in mine....but comparing me to a NAZI??? i would ask that you say that to my face, but i am sure that wont happen because your a coward.....


How to start an argument online:
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