BAD BILL for NM Sportsman - Serious...

The outfitter bill, SB 308, just passed the Senate Rules Committee. Next stop is Senate Conservation.
 
I think two things are making it look like there are crazy bills going on..

1) We are more informed.. I know that I am going to try and keep getting the word out and go to Santa Fe when I can... Knowledge is power... For years, we were just asked to trust the commission and lawmakers.. I don't think they have always understood the entire situation or had the average joe hunters best interest in mind..

2) Times are changing... We need to admit, that times are changing and get involved... We are going to be soon outnumbered unless we start growing out sport. Everyone is going to start trying to get the urban vote and unfortunately many urbanites don't hunt of fish

J-
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-13 AT 09:34AM (MST)[p]>I think two things are making
>it look like there are
>crazy bills going on..
>
>1) We are more informed..
>I know that I am
>going to try and keep
>getting the word out and
>go to Santa Fe when
>I can... Knowledge is
>power... For years, we
>were just asked to trust
>the commission and lawmakers.. I
>don't think they have always
>understood the entire situation or
>had the average joe hunters
>best interest in mind..

>2) Times are changing... We
>need to admit, that times
>are changing and get involved...
> We are going to
>be soon outnumbered unless we
>start growing out sport.
>Everyone is going to start
>trying to get the urban
>vote and unfortunately many urbanites
>don't hunt of fish
>
>J-

Your second point is why it's a good thing to have someone that is pro hunting (outfitter) permanently on the commission.
 
I don't agree with that at all.. Outfitters cater to NR hunters.. NOT in-state voting or future voting residents. There are ton of pro-hunting people that we could get on the commission that are not tried to make money off of the system...
 
>I don't agree with that at
>all.. Outfitters cater to NR
>hunters.. NOT in-state voting or
>future voting residents. There
>are ton of pro-hunting people
>that we could get on
>the commission that are not
>tried to make money off
>of the system...


If it's going to be a permanent position, it will need to be a group (e.g., Outfitter), not an individual. What pro-hunting group do you have in mind? And can you get them on a bill? IMO, any permanent position that is held by a pro-hunting group is a positive. Especially from a long-term standpoint where we will see more and more antis looking for a seat at the table.
 
No, it doesn't need to be a group. Look at the way the commission is setup now.. We have commissioners supposed to be representing certain constituents and they are the farthest thing from the group they are representing. I don't have any group in mind, if you look across the state you will see that many people belong to several groups but at the end of the day I do think we have two different groups.. Those that are looking to profit off of the resources and those that just want to enjoy the resource. it is sad but that is just reality...

Say that this does go thru, how do you think the OF should be chosen? By using the NMOA as a reference??


Again, this is a HUGE conflict of interest...

And just so you know there is NO such thing as a permanent position, Martinez removed a commissioner that was confirmed this year with no cause.
 
>No, it doesn't need to be
>a group. Look at
>the way the commission is
>setup now.. We have commissioners
>supposed to be representing certain
>constituents and they are the
>farthest thing from the group
>they are representing. I
>don't have any group in
>mind, if you look across
>the state you will see
>that many people belong to
>several groups but at the
>end of the day I
>do think we have two
>different groups.. Those that are
>looking to profit off of
>the resources and those that
>just want to enjoy the
>resource. it is sad
>but that is just reality...
>
>
>Say that this does go thru,
>how do you think the
>OF should be chosen?
>By using the NMOA as
>a reference??
>
>
>Again, this is a HUGE conflict
>of interest...
>
>And just so you know there
>is NO such thing as
>a permanent position, Martinez removed
>a commissioner that was confirmed
>this year with no cause.
>
________________________________________

Jason, I'm a resident DIY hunter/fisherman, etc. I may not always agree with your point of view, but in this case I might.

I have absoluetly nothing against outfitters, in fact I will go as far as saying that I support them. They provide a great service (if they're good) to mostly non-residents, but also the occasional resident. Many are also long time NM residents creating jobs for other NM residents.

Jason, WHY do you think this is a bad idea?
 
1) for me the biggest thing is a conflict of interest. OF would have direct say in issues, E-Plus,A-Plus, Resident vs NR Quotas, Tag Allocation, Privatization of Sheep Tags,etc... Basically, you would now have some on a board that could increase the amount of resources that go to OF and not DIY Hunters.

2) I think we can all agree that there are issues with LO Tags, OF and brokers are doing well because of these tags. There would be someone on the commission that could single handily change the how a commission would vote.

3)If OF get a seat where does it stop? Currently, the commission is supposed to have one rep from each quad and one ag seat and one conservation seat. If you look at the current commissioners they are all over the board and we still don't' have an explanation on who is filling what spot. There is NO reason someone that is an outfitter can fill those seats.
 
I love the outfitters etc bring in so much money argument. It is always the go to. The state will be worse off then they are without them.
 
>I love the outfitters etc bring
>in so much money argument.
> It is always the
>go to. The state
>will be worse off then
>they are without them.

While outfitters may over play this card, it's na?ve to think that they don't bring a lot of money into New Mexico. I've been lucky to hunt New Mexico with a friend for the past three years (all guided) and we've managed to dump over $60k into your state's economy. That includes lodging, food, outfitter fees, tips for guides, meat processor fees, taxidermy fees, tags/licenses/tags, taxes, etc. The vast majority stays in New Mexico. That's real money and it adds up when you count all of the guided non-residents. And spare me the "you are stupid for paying that kind of money to hunt", as I already know that.
 
I would like a better understanding of the NM Game and Fish commission.

How many members?

How are they chosen?

What is their tenure and is there a limit?

What decisions do they make or do they just approve policy that is advanced to them?

Has there traditionally been a Outfitter on the commission?

The policy proposed, who would select the outfitter?

Do they approve policy on a straight majority?

Which one do I talk to about cutting deer tags in unit 34? :)
 
Members - 7
Chosen - Governor appointed
Tenure - Governor decides when they appointed 2, 3 or 4
Decision - Can't change laws, like the current quota.
Commission - Never been an outfitter on the commission or at least any time recently.
Policy Proposed - Governor
Majority - Pretty sure has to be majority, but can't be more then 4 members of the same political party
Deer tags - Outfitters have the same concern
 
Thanks live4muleys. That helps me understand the basics, but, it seems they do not have much power over policy??

What exactly do they do?
 
Check out the Commission meeting agenda on the NMDGF website. That will give you a good idea of the type of things they discuss.
 
We hear that SB 308 won't be heard until Tuesday. In the meantime, we sent alerts to constituents of the key swing votes - Cervantes, Martinez, Payne, Ryan and Shendo. If any of them is your senate, pound 'em.
 
Sierra:

You rightly note that as a NR you brought $ into our state. Thanks.

But the vast majority of the $ you list wasn't related to Outfitters: lodging, food, meat processor fees, taxidermy fees, tags/licenses/tags, taxes, etc.

If you would have chosen to hunt DIY that $ would have still come into the state.

I'm willing to bet you didn't come here to hunt because of our Outfitters, but rather because of our game resources. So I do not believe that Outfitters are responsible for bringing $ into the state like they like to take credit for.
 
>Sierra:
>
>You rightly note that as a
>NR you brought $ into
>our state. Thanks.
>
>But the vast majority of the
>$ you list wasn't related
>to Outfitters: lodging, food, meat
>processor fees, taxidermy fees, tags/licenses/tags,
>taxes, etc.
>
>If you would have chosen to
>hunt DIY that $ would
>have still come into the
>state.
>
>I'm willing to bet you didn't
>come here to hunt because
>of our Outfitters, but rather
>because of our game resources.
>So I do not believe
>that Outfitters are responsible for
>bringing $ into the state
>like they like to take
>credit for.

+1
 
OK- I try and ride the fence when I can on here now days but here is my .02.

As a FYI I look forward to NOT reading any of the reply??s?K.

I am an outfitter here in NM and CO, live in Aztec but guide in 16a-d-c 15-34-36-37-2c-2b-2a-13-12-56-9-7-10-25-30-29-32-27-23. I have most of the state wired for game, and have first had knowledge from having my feet ON THE GROUND in the above units.

With an outfitter residents have a LOCAL person to talk with about changes, needs and wants for NM. Like Paul said, unit 34 deer are almost gone yet G&F keeps pumping almost 2000 tags into the unit. I??ll bet you 100$ if you asked all the members on the committee right now NONE would have any idea on the plight of the deer in unit 34-30-29-2B-2A-17-16??s etc?K. ask a full time outfitter and I bet you they all know the areas of the state in trouble!!

You are also going to have an outfitter who yes makes money hunting and fishing, but we also hunt and fish and have family??s that live here in NM and hunt and fish. You have someone looking out for everyone??s rights to hunt and fish in NM. What happens when we end up with anti hunters on the board?K. Don??t think it will happen, think again! Look at all the greenies in charge of the National Forest systems and BLM here in NM I am surprised that we can even hunt and fish still on public lands, personally as well as commercially, don??t even bring up state lease lands that were closed to coyote contests because of NM RESIDENT outcry you??ll get me spittling in your face yelling mad in about 3 seconds. You are all living in a dream world if you don??t think we are going to have to FIGHT to hunt and even fish every year from here to the end of time.

A voice?K. Guess what, outfitters are going to have to ask for public help and input on changes, we have to! If we are not united on most fronts we loose on all of them!
Maybe instead of fighting about who??s in charge, you try and deal with the outfitters to have the RESIDENTS of nm get a little say in who of the outfitters are that are elected, appointed, nominated to the seat on the board!!!

Let the finger lashings begin!

If you don??t agree I am sorry, please check back with me when you do ??

Chris Guikema
Compass West Outfitters

www.200inches.com
 
Commission Make up

District one: Curry, De Baca, Roosevelt, Chaves, Lincoln, Otero, Eddy and Lea counties;

District two: Catron, Socorro, Grant, Hidalgo, Luna, Sierra and Dona Ana counties;

District three: San Juan, McKinley, Cibola, Valencia, Sandoval, Los Alamos and Rio Arriba counties;

District four: Santa Fe, Taos, Colfax, Union, Mora, Harding, Quay, San Miguel, Guadalupe and Torrance counties; and
District five: Bernalillo county.

The remaining two members shall be appointed at-large. At least one member of the commission shall manage and operate a farm or ranch that contains at least two species of wildlife on that part which is deeded land requiring licensing prior to legal pursuit under the provisions of Section 17-3-2 NMSA 1978. At least one member shall have a demonstrated history of involvement in wildlife and habitat protection issues and whose activities or occupation are not in conflict with wildlife and habitat advocacy. The state game commission as provided in Chapter 17 NMSA 1978 shall have the same authority, powers and duties as now vested in the state game commission by law, and each member of the state game commission shall serve until his successor has been appointed and qualified.


THIS IS THE WAY it should be done but nobody really follows it... For example Salmon was a confirmed commissioner and Martinez removed with without just cause. I think this was illegal but nobody pushed it. Also, the commissioners terms should be staggered to maintain continuity but that isn't happening either.

As you can see LO are well represented.. and an OF in the mix and you see how the votes will go..
 
I'm willing to bet you didn't come here to hunt because of our Outfitters, but rather because of our game resources. So I do not believe that Outfitters are responsible for bringing $ into the state like they like to take credit for.

Outfitters bring millions and millions into NM

www.200inches.com
 
The way the bill is written the public will have no input on who would be appointed.

Also, 34 no deer, yes they should reduce the tags FOR everybody.. Let's get rid of those UNLIMITED LO TAGS... How can the dept manage a herd when we have unlimited tags? That just doesn't' make sense, again this unlimited LO tags came for LO and OF...

That is just one example of how OF and LO will sellout public draw hunters..

I want to stress that I am NOT anti-OF... i just am very pro-public draw..

J
 
We keep on hearing the OF say this but we did a study on this and it is pretty even between NR and Resident Hunters...

I would love to see some solid numbers to back it up your claim.. not being confrontation but if it is true then it is true but I haven't seen any numbers.
 
Here are a couple of paragraphs that I pulled from a old article..

The 2006 USFWS survey found that 99,000 people hunted in New Mexico that year and spent $164 million. While residents spent less per day, they spent money year-round and thus outspent visitors $94 million to $60 million.

Residents spent about the same on food and lodging as non-residents, and slightly less on transportation, but far more on equipment ? $59.8 million to $4.8 million. That's borne out in interviews with New Mexico sporting goods store owners, who say virtually all their equipment sales are to residents
 
Hunters are nothing more than tourists. Every state in the US spends millions to attract them and NM is no different. It's about new money coming in, and the state of NM evidently agrees.
You can debate what percentage is because of outfitters but the $60 Million is from NR hunters and money you wouldn't have without us.
 
I am not saying we don't enjoy NR hunters.. but their impact isn't as big as everybody thinks. Again the NR hunters come because of the game not the outfitters.

ALSO, because Residents spend more throughout the year doesn't it make sense to give more resident tags???

Again, i don't mind outfitters but let's play on a level field...

AND back to the original point of the thread, they shouldn't have a seat on the commission
 
Thank God for the outiftters or people like Jamaro would do their best to keep us NR from ever being able to hunt in New Mexico (on federal property). Let's also not forget that Jamaro was a tag pimp he just was not very good at it so now he is the voice of the common hunter but only if you live in New Mexico. Who knows what position he will take next??? I am guessing that if he were good enough and had found a way to make a living as an outfitter he would be not only be asking for the dedicated seat he would be lobbying to be the one in the seat. This will piss him off because it is dead on.

I have drawn tags via the regular non-resident pool and the outfitter pool. I host many non-resident hunters on our farms each year. I did not even gun hunt my farms last year so that my non-resident friends could have it to themselves.It will never end with people like Jamaro, maybe when all states simply say you have to be a resident to hunt there he will be happy. People like him simply do not care about anyone but themselves.
 
Jason, I don't think you want to play on a level field do you. That is the way big horn sheep is set up on a level field.

So residents get 84% of the tags and NR get 16%. According to you residents and NR bring in the same Money, so hopefully you can see why NR money is important to our state, if they can match money with just 16% of tags.
 
Nice... Attack the person not the issue...
and that was a long time ago, you know it... i have no issues with NR... NONE.. I am glad I saw the other side of the fence.. it makes me realize how messed up things are.. btw I never sold a tag.. Iowan you always have it in for me.. i get it, for some reason it is personal.. Oh well... BTW this doesn't piss me off, it just makes me realize that this bill is all politics and that people are reaching on this...

HUH? Believe me this isn't about me.. I could sit back and watch the fireworks and buy LO tags every year... but I wont.. there is too much on the line for residents of NM..I spend a ton of time and money driving to Santa Fe and lobbying for residents of NM...
 
Federal and State law have upheld quotas across the nation... I don't have any issue with it.. We have an a opinion by two AG
s that the Turk Decision should be challenged and that the state could win. Residents by FAR has funded the restoration of those sheep.. NOT NR(other than auction or raffle tags)...

Again other than the price of the license and tag we have solid statistics that residents fund the GPF by alot more than NR...
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-13 AT 06:56PM (MST)[p]The Outfitters just pulled the bill, they didn't have the votes or support.. Great Job everybody that called!
 
You're welcome... It really goes to show when we feel strongly about something we can make a difference... I know I am not always right but I think that I try to keep the R DIY Hunters best interest at heart...

This good news is that we were able to defeat most bills that were bad for sportsman this session... The bad news is that we need to keep fighting..

Keep Hammering
 
jamaro

Im all for it.

Look at the intelligence level of the "average" hunter. The way the current system is they can't draw tags very often. You are one of those who thinks if we give a few extra tags from a NR to a rez and increase his odds from 125 out of 4000 to 130 out of 4000 that somehow we are bettering ourselves.

Well because of this not a single rez will ever have great odds of drawing and NOTHING will change this.

Now that being said, most resident hunters will rarely draw a decent elk tag and hence they will have little experience in the prime elk spots. That means the more educated people ARE the outfitters and they ARE the ones that bring more knowledge to the table.

Im a resident and a DIY for most of my NM hunts. However when I do hook up with outfitters they have a very unique perspective to bring to the game. They know a lot more problems that us average guys would never even know and hence they have more experience to put into the entire process.

All I can say is that the hunting regs in this state can't get anymore jacked up and I fully welcome a full time outfitter to sit at the table permanently.

I wish you would start looking at these nm issues with more than just your own personal agendas and goals in mind. I also wish you would start looking at odds increases with common sense and realize that yes we need to keep a cap on NR as do other states, but to cut them completely out of cow tags etc is a pretty selfish thing to do.

Im not hating on you jamaro but step back and look at things and think them out clearly and let the data drive. Clear you mind and approach all issues with an unbiased opinion and then make your choices.

Not trying to bash you at all here but I do disagree with you on this one. I say lets put someone with more experience on the board and see if we can't get some positive changes for the herd.

This world isn't about ourselves but how we can best help everyone else around us and improve the world around us to help everyone else out in the future. At least that's how I see it.
 
I appreciate your input and I will take it to heart... This isn't about me, it is about what I am hearing from sportsman across the state..

BTW - The Cow for resident deal was pushed by the OF and LO during SB196. This was there idea of giving Residents more tags. Not trying to be confrontational but this is perfect example of the OF and there Coalition offering less valued tags to keep their subsidies and take tags for DIY NR.
 
As long as you have landowner tags bringing big dollars you will be sucking hind tit. The fact that most of the cow tags are never used on private land proves it is all about the money and a lot of it. If you can get a bill to eliminate landowners whoring a public resource I bet you could get it passed.
 
>As long as you have landowner
>tags bringing big dollars you
>will be sucking hind tit.
>The fact that most of
>the cow tags are never
>used on private land proves
>it is all about the
>money and a lot of
>it. If you can get
>a bill to eliminate landowners
>whoring a public resource I
>bet you could get it
>passed.


I will take your bet. $5

Certainly some things need to be re looked at with the landowner tags and private deer, but, a bill eliminating landowner tags is DOA.
 
GlenninAZ.. it is a mess... I have seen a few forum threads about LO tags being given in Unit 10 in AZ... FIGHT AS HARD AS YOU CAN...

The way the LO tags authorizations are written is that the dept CAN give A permit to a LO... Until E-plus there was no way to quantify it. So we could change E-Plus and help the problem... Our only real hope is if it got legal but it is going to take a favorable commission and dept to ask for a "Opinion" on the issue... The state has a anti-donation clause and that might be our only hope...

J
 
That is Indian land so they might be able to get away with it but never going to happen here. We are a bunch of rednecks that ran Peay and his boys out on a rail for trying for expo tags and landowner tags are even more irritating to us. You guys keep up the fight and get involved in the politics and use the hippies and non hunters to get the bill passed. You can do it if you keep grinding. Good luck.
 

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