Ben Stein On The Economy

[huntindude]

Ben now says we must balance the budget and reduce the national debt. he says the debt has caused the drop in the value of the dollar which has increased the price of oil and caused most of or problems. none of this is big news but the fact he says we should raise taxes if needed to get it done tells me how important he thinks it is, I agree.

Since we're now officially in a recession and a bear market the proverbial substance has hit the fan and the debt is in a large part to blame. Stein, Greenspan and Buffet are the 3 top guys I listen to when it comes to economics and they're all saying about the same thing, we're in for some tough times and the debt must be reduced.

So no matter who becomes president the economy is going to be rough and taxes must go up, that's a fact. so you still think fat butt Rush who says the debt doesn't matter is truly on loan from god? saying I told you so is one of lifes little pleasures, paying back the 341.4 million dollars a day wasted in Iraq and the other stupid government spending isn't.

 

[Spencer]

Who has controlled congress the last two years and thus approves or defeats any and all spending bills? What was the deficit in 2005 and what is it in 2008?

Scott
Member: RMEF, SCI, and NRA

 

[huntindude]

Good try, what was the deficit when Bush took office and what was it in Jan 2007 when the dems gained their small majority? was there a noticable change in spending post Jan 2007? that's what I thought.

Your hero Bush will run up the debt more than any president in history in total dollars, Regan tripled it and Bush Jr will almost double it. not bad for conservatives wouldn't you say? compare their record along with Bush Sr against that of Clinton and report back. now who are the spenders again?

Big spending + low taxes + big debt, wow who would have guessed it?

 

[Packout]

Why are 30 inch 4 points so special? Six point bull elk? Because not everyone has them. It is the same with the dollar. We produce so much money and ship it around the world that it looses its value.

Borrow from China to print dollars, then spend the money on items which are sold by China. Print money to pay illegal aliens who then send the money home and it never sees the US market.

Tax our companies so much that they move the Middle East in our "Global Economy". Then after they leave, tax the people who have the most, and give it to the people who have the least. The rich then move their investments overseas or create shell companies.

Then we get the Democrats blaming it all on Bush while they do nothing to help solve the problem. Then the Republicans, trying to wooo the new "Government Should Do It For Me" generation, increase spending.

Ben Stein is a genius. This tax rebate, given to us by our politicians for our votes, is a joke. The problem with the Republicans is they want to not tax anyone. The worse problem, with the Democrats, is they want to get it all from the minority. An example of the idiocy is in the ranching and farming community. The parents die and their child must sell the ground to pay the "taxes", yet they never intended on selling it. They can't afford the taxes, but they never wanted to sell the land. The government (Democrats) tax the family on something which has no value, unless it is sold.

Everyone benefited from the deficit, so shouldn't everyone pay it off? I do like Stein, maybe I will write him in come November.

 

[Blue]

Boy you are smart as hell. I love how according to you everything is Bush's fault, and this do nothing, liberal majority congress, gets a free pass. Your liberal hero's in congress are pathetic. And your blame Bush for everything is getting old as hell.

 

[huntindude]

The death tax doesn't effect estates until you get into quite a few million dollars, if you have a decent estate attorney anyway. there are many legal loop holes, if you need them I can hook you up, been there done that.

I agree everyone should help pay the debt off, problem is we all owe $30,787.11 , each and every US citizen. now I'm guessing in time I'm going to get nailed for more than my share since many dead beats aren't going to pick up their tab, so I'd like to fix this sooner than later.

We can't start paying it off until we stop adding to it, so where do we turn the corner? this is a big deal, not only for us but for your kids.

 

[Packout]

The democratic congress sits on their hands, hoping for failure because it ensures their victory. Yes it is a sad state of affairs in our country today, on both sides.

 

[NeMont]

HD,

If you are listening to Alan Greenspan then you are being led down a deadend lane.

Warren Buffet is generally a great source of info and Ben Stein is also good.

The problem with Americans is that their memories are way too short when it comes to the economy. What happens in the decade or decadess prior to any economic upheaval is what matters. Easy money policies lead to bubbles and when those bubbles burst there is economic pain.

There are some prominent people who are saying that the current problems can be laid directly at Greenspans feet. GWB did his fair share by overspending but the structural problems in the economy were built during Greenspans watch. He didn't do his job to "take away the punch bowl" just when the party is starting.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/ContrarianChronicles/TheEndOfTheSuperbubble.aspx

 

[Spencer]

Bush is not my hero actually. My simple question was what was the deficit BEFORE the Democrats took control of Congress and what is it today? If the deficit is a lot higher today than 2-3 years ago then it would seem to indicate that the Democrats have not done anything courageous to stop the bleeding.

I happen to think BOTH parties are guilty as hell of over spending. it is too bad that you can't think logically or outside the democratic playbook box.

Scott
Member: RMEF, SCI, and NRA

 

[1911]

Dude...for as much as you hate Rush you sure seem to listen to him and monitor his every move. Can't get Air America in Oregon anymore or what? I've seen some strange love hate relationships but this takes the cake. Just change the dial on the AM tonight and maybe you'll forget about him in the morning.

 

[huntindude]

Blue, that's all you've got? it doesn't seem I need to be too smart to be smarter than you. prove me wrong why don't you.

I used to listen to Rush once in a while, some of my friends still do so I hear all the time what Rush is preaching, and no I don't get Air American here in Eastern Oregon.

So what part of who ran up the debt did I get wrong? and by the way does congress ask the president to approve the budget or does the president ask congress to approve it? sooooo.. maybe Bush DID have a hand in it, even the last two years, NO WAY!!. does the new dem majority in congress have the votes to over ride a veto from the president? yeah you know, I still think Bush has some control so save the libs in congress run the nation crap.

I didn't say the dems were innocent, I said the republicans are more to blame for our debt, prove me wrong. then convince me either one of the knuckle heads running for president will balance the budget and start paying on the debt.

 

[gleninaz]

Too late! Everyone had a hayday spending artificial equity and the banks and lenders manipulated regulation to make a killing on loans that should never have been made. Add a war and huge amounts of pork added to every appropriations bill and you have a society that got drunk on easy money. The hangover is just beginning. If you tax the big corporations they pull in their horns and cut jobs or offshore to offset. If you increase capital gains the rich will find ways to hide income. Trickle down economics can be negative as well as positive. The top 400 wealthiest Americans earn and average of $217 million a year and the balance have an average income of $26000. This is a mess of geometric magnitude with all of our leadership in both parties to blame as well as most citizens.

 

[202typical]

Typical of Dude. GWB had 9 whole months to get OBL and he failed. 911 is GWB fault. This is the song you have been singing for years now Dude.
Now your beloved Dems have had 2 full freaking years to cut spending. So I believe YOU should give your party the same treatment and hold them accountable.
Next your beloved party has had 2 full freaking years to get us out of Iraq just as they promised and yet they have done absolutly NOTHING.
Plain and simple, the lesser of the two evils like it or not, agree or not, is the Republican party.

Next, it is obvious to everyone here that you are a Rush listener and fan, so please refreain from projecting your love of Rush onto other conservatives on this forum. It makes you even less credable than you already are.





"Thanks climate PhD 202" - TFinalshot Feb-05-08, 02:16 PM (MST)

 

[Blue]

You are a liberal dude what more needs to be said. If in two years you beloved liberal congress cant do anything but investigate steroid use by major league baseball players what else needs to be said about you liberals. You are wrong on every front.

 

[huntindude]

202 and Blue it's easy to tell you're both hitting the kool aid hard.

Does or does Bush not send his budget to congress? did or did Reagan not triple the debt, Bush sr increase it by 13% and Bush Jr not almost double it? your lectures and calling me a liberal won't change the facts it only shows you have no ammo and you're desparate, as if I give a crap what you think of me anyway.

I didn't say dems are not part to blame did I? but I'm not stupid enough to lay it all at the feet of a razor slim dem majority in congress who have been there for 17 months. guys like you are the only reason I can find to root for Obama, if him winning didn't pee in your cheerios I'd have no horse in this race since both candidates are losers, thanks for making it interesting anyway.

 

[Roy]

I think Ben Stein is right on this one - to a certain extent. He proposes a line of logic that proposes to simply solve a very complex problem. He knows as well as anyone that there isn't one thing that that will fix our current economic situation. He is one of the more conservative voices too.

I agree though, debt is not a good thing, and yes it has devaluated the dollar and other countries are taking advantage of us because of that. But the simple fact remains that there are more countries that OWE us than WE owe the world. If those same countries who are taking advantage of the devaluated dollar would pay us back, then we could cover our deficit as well. So the line of logic that Stein retorts here doesnt't ale that into account.

As with every major corporation - the most important thing to solvency is cash flow and not necesarily lack of deficit. That is why some of these big corporations who are on the verge of bankruptcy still show profits and are able to get financing for new projects. Steady revenue is the key. Raising taxes only increases our revenues or increases our cash flow and it will only work to pay off our debt if it is applied towards it. It is the current mindset not just of the presidency but of all the Congress and Senate is to spend spend spend. So as long as we have cash flow, we will continue to spend and our debt is not getting paid.

The idead that our debt does not affect us as much as we think it does comes from some of the more conservative economists who feel that cash flow and revenue as well as the countries that are in debt to us offset our deficit or the effects. This is the line of logic that Rush has chosen to follow. I don't like every thing that Rush says but I think he gets more right than wrong, even though his rhetoric is nothing more than axe grinding. So he is not totally off base, but then I feel he pics and chooses his theories to match his own rhetoric.



UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)

 

[piper]

all anyone has to do is remmember what was going on 6 or seven years ago to understand whats hitting us now, the massive budget mess this country is in can be laid on George W Bushes feet more than anyone else, Two big tax cut bills and a lot of spending, I remmember him in a state of the union speech saying I call on congress to spend 500 billion, b as in billion on a senior drug benifit bill, they passed one, what else could they do? I remmember the white house saying the Iraq war will probably cost about 80 billion dollars total, its now costing about 3 billion a week! its heck of a mess we are in and people trying to pin all the red ink on the dems in congress is really stupid, I just hope all this lieing and exaggerating by both sides can slow down enough that McCain or Obama can help this country get a hold of some of the problems

 

[huntindude]

Roy you put that pretty well, but the problem I have with counting the money other countries owe us is they're not going to pay it. I have dead beat hay buyers who owe me 10's of thousands of dollars but the fact is I'll never see it, so I don't count it as anything other than lost money. most of the nations who owe us are the same thing, lost money and in the past. we just have to put it the right column and move on.

 

[NMPaul]

Its not about raising taxes its about cutting spending.

Truly cutting spending, not just saying not increasing spending is cutting. More BS programs out there than ever before. Everyone is on the government tit.

 

[clifhunter]

NMPaul is totaly right.

Stop all of the stuped welfare projects and the problem is solved.

 

[3blade]

>Its not about raising taxes its
>about cutting spending.
>
>Truly cutting spending, not just saying
>not increasing spending is cutting.
> More BS programs out
>there than ever before.
>Everyone is on the government
>tit.

+2

 

[NeMont]

Piper,

I agree but your side is proposing spending even more then GWB has been able to spend. Obama is going to be the next president the amount of money he has in his campaign is enough to guarantee that. He will have a democrat majority in both the house and senate, for at least the first two years, and there will not be a new government program or spending program that they won't like.

Hang on to your wallets because Obama will figure out, just like WJC did, that the only way to increase tax revenue is to tax the middle class. The upper class is already paying alot of the bill and corporations can shelter income and assets to the point that the only available taxable items out there is the middle class incomes.

In addition he is going to increase Social Security taxes in order to keep the ponzi scheme going. So while GWB has no taxed and spent money, Obama is going to tax, then tax some more at a time when alot of people are hurting. The democrats have already sold their souls to the corporations just like the republicans and they will not increase corporate taxes.

The Medicare Rx program is going to cost the country far more then the Iraq war ever will. It was the single most fiscally irresponsible piece of legislation signed in the past 35 years.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

So we need to cut spending, agreed, BUT where and how? it's easy to say but hard to do. we all know there's tons of government spending that we see as waste but others see as their gravy train, just how do you shut that off? it's not as simple as it sounds.

It's very clear what we're doing now isn't working, so if Obama does something different and it doesn't work we're right back where we are today, and who's to say he won't adjust his strategy to fit the economy as he goes, maybe, maybe not. no democrats since Roosevelt - Truman have massed the debt the last 3 republicans have, and since that was to fund WWII I see that as excusable. look at the history of spending and debt accrued under the presidents according to their political party and you'll see all this dooms day talk is off base. I don't know what conservatives conserve but it's not money, I can't say Obama will do well but history shows McCain will make it worse.

We have to fund medical programs, we're not a 3rd or 4th world nation that lets people die on the hospital steps. I think there are more cost effective ways to do it myself, but everyone would rather just keep it the way it is and whine about it so that's that I guess.

 

[NeMont]

Obama has never enumerated what changes he is going to make and there is not enough wiggle room in the budget mess he is going to inherit to allow him to not raise taxes. Bill Clinton's tax increase came at a time of a rapidly expanding stock market and technology boom rather then at a time of record inflation with the increased costs of fuel.

A country cannot tax itself into prosperity.

Reagan defeated the Soviets in the cold war without a massive world war, that deficit spending was worth it.

Federal Tax reciepts are currently at or near record highs how much more can a weak economy absorb without throwing it into a recession. Remember on Jan 21st, 2008 nobody will be able to blam GWB for anything that occured during his administration, the GWB haters on the democratic side have assured that the new president gets no honeymoon period. What happens the day after the is soley the result of what the new president has done. Hope Obama is up to it, so far I have no faith in his ability to do anything that isn't partisan politics. So nothing will have changed.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

Don't get me wrong I don't think Obama has a clue how to fix our finances, but niether does McCain with his stupid gas tax hollidays and such.

We're in for some tough times, DOW down another 135 as we speak. who becomes president will have little effect on the overall economy, the point I was trying to make is we MUST reduce our spending and our debt if we don't want to become nothing more than a debtor 3rd world nation. the conservatives have led the way down the path to our fiscal delema , until so called conservatives will accept that fact and demand more of their party they're hypocrites worse than liberals on spending.

Regan helped Russia self destruct that's true, but both the Bushs and Clinton screwed the pooch while they regrouped into a nation we must once again fear. Russia and China have become a growing force that will in time be the world power if they aren't already, I'm not sure anyone could have stopped it but I resent the way we've aided it.

 

[proutdoors]

I think post 24 is the FIRST post by dude I agree with, WTH?

Modern day republicans are NOT conservatives. But, raising taxes along with even MORE spending sure won't help. Lower taxes, reduce spending on 'entitlements', resist the urge to implement ANY form of Universal Health Care, become less dependant on foreign energy, return the dollar to the gold standard, and let American capitalism work by getting the governments dirty grubby hands out of telling businesses how to work, ELIMINATE the income tax that is bogus to begin with and replace it with a consumption tax. In other words, let the power return to the people!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[huntindude]

Consumption tax would be more fair, but kill the economy.

It would be an insentive not to buy, I'm not going to buy a new crew cab every other year or a new tractor if I have to pay taxes on that money, I spend it because it's deductable and I don't have to pay taxes on it.

We've lived it up on credit now the bill has come, it's time to pay like it or not. or we can keep it up until we break the bank and let your kids deal with it, that's even better for me.

 

[NeMont]

A consumption tax would not kill the economy. In most of Europe they have a Value Added Tax on just about everything and they don't have a death tax because they believe that you paid tax while you were living and contributing to society.

If you are buying just to depreciate a vehicle or tractor nothing really would change with a consumption tax. Depreciation schedules would not go away and you wouldn't be paying income tax on your money, theoritically speaking of course.

Consumption taxes are progressive taxes which hurt the poor less as they generally consume less. Poor people would be indifferent as they are not paying much in the way of income taxes as it stands today.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

The consumption tax plan I saw was a flat tax. no deductions, no loop holes, no exceptions. the main reason is it would be nearly impossible for the IRS to regulate the money once it's in the consumers hands and it would put a huge burden on retailers.

Once again we're all looking for the tax someone else pays. we spend too much and collect too little, no new tax sytsem will cure that so nothing changes.

 

[NeMont]

I wonder how retailers are able to efficiently collect sales taxes now?

Explain how a consumption tax could be a "flat tax"? That doesn't really make sense. The more you consume the more you pay. You would still probably enjoy deductions for capital equipment, business investments, business machinery etc, probably not on the new diesel tonner though as you know global warming is here.

I am for paying my share of taxes and even for paying some more if it went soley to debt reduction. I really have no interest in paying more into the government to just watch it be wasted on idiotic things. One prime example of a money pit is the Dept. of Homeland Security. They spend BILIONS on a none strategic threat to our country.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

What do you mean explain flat tax? it would be a flat rate on every dollar you spend. is the Quickie Mart clerk going to know what tax bracket you're in?

It really doesn't matter because our tax system is not going to change. if it becomes too simple or efficient not only would it be hard to manipulate by both tax payers and the government but it would put too many beurocrats and lawyers out of work.


Higher taxes and less spending are the only answer, we have too much debt already to just cut spending alone. I don't see either of these candidates cutting spending, Obama wants to be Santa and McCain thinks he's a tough guy destined set the world right according to him, so here come the taxes in any event.