BH 209 illegal or not?

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fullcurl74

Active Member
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368
Alright a buddy of mine in NV told me that he thought Blackhorn 209 was illegal for muzzy hunts because it's considered "smokeless". Everyone on here loves the stuff, and of course I just spent the money and bought a bunch of it for my UT LE hunt, so I figured I better find out.

I apologize if this topic has already been covered on here, but a couple of adult beverages this afternoon, and some spare time spent on google was pretty informative. Here's what I found.

The Utah proclamation says, "...must be loaded with black powder or a black powder substitute. The black powder or black power substitute cannot contain nitrocellulose-based smokeless powder."

Ok, so is BH nitrocellulose based? Checking their website did not help. Nowhere on there did it list any of the ingredients or what it's based on. Of course they're not going to give away any trade secrets, but I would think there would be some labeling when it comes to legality.

Some of the articles that I found on Google were by backyard chemists who say that BH is definitely made of nitrocellulose. Does that make it illegal in Utah? What about other states?

http://home.earthlink.net/~manzanovalph/Blackhorn209.pdf

http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackhorn209_news_flash.htm

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=6150.0

Then I found some links to articles saying that New Mexico specifically stated it was illegal as a black powder substitute. I couldn't find it listed in the current NM proclamation online, but it looks like earlier versions specifically listed it as illegal. Anybody from NM care to weigh in?

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=222820.0

http://www.biggamehunt.net/forum/bh209-illegal-use-new-mexico-2011

I realize these links are just internet articles and forums with self-proclaimed experts, but it sounds pretty questionable.

I'm more of a hunting freak than a gun and powder freak so somebody help me out here. I also sucked at chemistry in school. Am I missing something?
 
I'd be interested in the UT regs on this as I'm in the same boat. Just bought 2 cans of it for my UT hunt.
 
>You can use it in Utah,
>Shot my LE Dutton muzzy
>bull with it in 2010
>and verified with DWR before
>hand.

That's good to know, thanks. Sounds like Nevada is not accepting it as a legal black powder substitute. Seems like the laws are worded similarly in each state, but interpreted differently.
 
I would like to see in the NV regs where it states Blackhorn 209 is illegal as a black powder substitute. The regs state black powder and black powder substitutes are legal, no mention of any specific powders not being legal. The NV regs mention nothing about nitrocellulose in black powder substitutes, and as I'm not a chemist I have no idea if blackhorn contains nitrocellulose or not. Word of mouth and some post on the internet don't cut it for me regarding determining whether or not this stuff is legal or not in NV. If NV was to make it specifically illegal, they better state it in the regs and notify the hunting public. I think they would have a hard time nailing someone for using it right now as it is sold as a black powder substitute and not a "smokeless" powder. They need to let everyone know if they intend to ban it as there are a lot of guys preparing for hunts this year and I'm sure they would be extremely pissed to find out it's banned at the last minute.

As mentioned above New Mexico banned it last year or the year before, but then when they got a little more info on the powder reversed that ban.
 
>I'm not a chemist I
>have no idea if blackhorn
>contains nitrocellulose or not.
>Word of mouth and some
>post on the internet don't
>cut it for me regarding
>determining whether or not this
>stuff is legal or not
>in NV.
>

Hey, I'm not telling you that I know the law and everything about this powder, I'm just relaying what I've found out so far, and asking what others know. I don't expect you to change anything based on "word of mouth and some post on the internet" but would suggest you contact NV or whatever state you want to hunt to find out from someone in charge.

My tag this year is for UT and my friend that first brought it to my attention had talked to F & G in NV. As for New Mexico, I don't know.
 
I'm not here to get in a pissing match, there's enough of them on-going on this website constantly. You stated above like it was a known fact that BH209 is not legal in Nevada based on second hand information that you got from a friend. Like I said before if Nevada plans on banning BH209, they better get it in writing, as I cannot find anywhere in the regs that states that it is illegal. You can't enforce someones opinion, laws must be written if you want to enforce them.

I unfortunately don't have a muzzeloader tag this year, so I don't even have to worry about it. Good luck on your Utah hunt.
 
I did the same research and had the same questions. I also contacted the Utah DWR, but I included my research and some links to the articles about its nitrocellulose content. I just heard back the following from a very helpful Amy Canning:

I checked with our Law Enforcement section on this and received the following reply from Sgt. Stacey Jones:
"Blackhorn 209 is a nitrocellulose based smokeless powder, which cannot be used for hunting."

Sounds pretty definitive to me.
 
"Blackhorn209 is perfectly legal in new mexico. They changed their regulations after speaking to folks who knew what blackhorn actually contained."

There doesn't seem to be much question that it contains nitrocellulose, and that's the ingredient which makes it illegal in Utah. Somebody on another forum emailed Western Powders to get their opinion about the Utah regulation. Here is their response:

"Blackhorn 209 was specifically designed as a muzzleloading propellant for modern style in-line muzzleloading rifles.

1) Blackhorn can be loaded on a volumetric equivalent to Black Powder. This can not be done with smokeless powders.
2) Blackhorn 209 is classified by the US DOT / UN Propellant, solid, UN0499 same as T7, Pyrodex, APP, JSG, and GOEX Pinnacle. All other NC based propellants are classified as: Powder, Smokeless, UN 0161
3) Blackhorn 209 composition contains Potassium Nitrate, Charcoal, and Sulfur. Key ingredients in any black powder or substitute. Smokeless powder may contain small amounts of Potassium Nitrate but none of the other ingredients."

If BH209 wasn't NC based I think that would have been mentioned in this email. Instead, the company skirts around the issue and tries to address the smokeless issue instead. They also use the phrase "other NC based propellants", which implies that BH209 is in fact NC based.

Utah law prohibits powders that CONTAIN nitrocellulose based smokeless powder. BH209 is made primarily of exactly that, with a small amount of additives to give it some smoke and slow the burn rate. So until Utah changes the rule I think I'll stop using it.
 
Thank you El Matador. I've been out of town for a while, but I also got the same response from Utah DWR. Should have gotten the name of the person that I spoke to, but it was a guy in law enforcement in Salt Lake.

I guess Nevada is sending letters out to hunters stating that BH 209 is NOT legal in Nevada.

I agree that the company is trying their best to not answer the important questions because they know their sales are about to tank.

Sorry boys. Anybody wanna buy my can of it?
 
El Matador, sure enough. I just called the law enforcment side of the DWR too. I was told last spring it was ok (probably because it was such a new product that no one was really aware of its contents). They also told me today that BH209 is on the top of the list for thier upcoming RAC meetings to discuss weather it gives a unfair advantage using BH209 and weather to allow it or not. They said if it remains a unlawful propelant the reg will stay the same but if it deemed as a acceptable propelant, the 2012 reg will be drawn to reflect so.
 
Well its good to know that more than one officer is saying its illegal, it seems everyone has an opinion on this. But with 3 different wardens saying the same thing we can put it to rest. And I'm glad they're working on making the proc more clear for 2012.
 
>>
>I guess Nevada is sending letters
>out to hunters stating that
>BH 209 is NOT legal
>in Nevada.
>

Well I got 2 NV muzzy tags at my house and we have not recievied any letters. If I don't then according to the printed regs I will be using bh209.

NV regs

Powder: Only black powder or a black powder substitute such asPyrodex or Triple 7 may be used; smokeless powder is prohibited.A muzzle-loading tagholder may carry a ?Cintlock or percussionhandgun during a muzzle-loading-only hunt, however, it may not be used to hunt big game.
 
And actually, there should be no problem using BH 209 in Utah this year. Here is an email received from the Chief of law enforcement:

David,
I was provided a clearer picture of the chemical components in Blackhorn 209 by an independent source that showed it does contain nitro-cellulose. This would technically make it illegal. I have, however, instructed my officers not to issue citations this season until we can conduct research and clarify its legality. I have pasted the text of that email below. Sorry for any confusion. Good luck this fall.

Hi All,
The question has been raised as to the legality of a new black powder substitute called Blackhorn 209. It is not a smokeless powder but it does contain nitro-cellulose based powder. Most hunters are not going to know that it contains nitro-cellulose and will probably be using it as it burns cleaner and the muzzleloader doesn't need to be cleaned as much.

We plan on researching this powder this fall to see if it provides an undue advantage over black powder or other substitute products and will make a recommendation to the RACs and Board for next season to clarify the language in rule. With that being said, I would request that you not issue citations to anyone using Blackhorn 209 this fall until we can sort this out.
Thanks for your consideration on this and thanks for all your dedicated service to the division.
Take care,
Mike

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Thanks txhunter for clearing that up! I like the BH209! It will be interesting to see how the rule for next year!
 
I just got the same clarification from the UWDR stating that their "officers have been requested not to issue citations relating to the use of Blackhorn 209 this fall"

TRH
 
troutcrk
im not sure where you got your info, i just read NAC 503.142 and copied it here. It says nothing about BH209. I havent gotten any letter as of yet. If i do things might change, but for now i dont see anything that says you can not use it.

NAC 503.142 Hunting big game mammal with firearm. (NRS 501.105, 501.181, 503.150) The Commission hereby establishes the following exceptions to paragraph (b) of subsection 1 of NRS 503.150:

1. During a type of hunt that is restricted to muzzle-loading firearms, a person may hunt a big game mammal only with a muzzle-loading rifle or muzzle-loading musket, and may use only a lead ball, a lead bullet, a semi-jacketed bullet or a metal alloy bullet that expands. The use of smokeless powder is prohibited. Only black powder or a black powder substitute such as Pyrodex or Triple 7 may be used as a propellant. A sabot round may be used. The muzzle-loading rifle or muzzle-loading musket must have the following characteristics:

(a) A wheel lock, matchlock or flintlock ignition system, or a percussion ignition system that uses a primer or percussion cap;

(b) A single barrel of caliber .45 or larger; and

(c) Open sights or peep sights. The use of a sight that is operated or powered by a battery, electronics or a radioactive isotope such as tritium is prohibited.

? The muzzle-loading rifle or the muzzle-loading musket is deemed to be not loaded if the priming compound or element, such as the priming powder or the unfired primer or percussion cap, is removed.

2. During a type of hunt that is restricted to muzzle-loading firearms, it is unlawful for a person hunting under the authority of a tag for such a hunt to carry in the field a firearm or longbow and arrow except for:

(a) A muzzle-loading rifle or a muzzle-loading musket with the characteristics set forth in subsection 1; or

(b) A flintlock or percussion handgun. However, it is unlawful to use such a handgun to hunt a big game mammal.

3. During a type of hunt in which the use of any legal weapon is authorized by a regulation of the Commission, a person may hunt a big game mammal with a muzzle-loading rifle or muzzle-loading musket only if:

(a) The muzzle-loading rifle or muzzle-loading musket has:

(1) A single barrel of caliber .45 or larger; and

(2) Open sights, peep sights or a rifle scope.

(b) The person uses a lead ball, a lead bullet, a semi-jacketed bullet or a metal alloy bullet that expands. A sabot round may be used.

? The muzzle-loading rifle or muzzle-loading musket is deemed to be not loaded if the priming compound or element, such as the priming powder or the unfired primer or percussion cap, is removed.

4. A person may hunt big game mammals with a rifle if the rifle uses a centerfire cartridge of caliber .22 or larger.

5. A person may hunt big game mammals with a handgun if the handgun uses a centerfire cartridge, has a barrel length of 4 inches or more and:

(a) Uses a cartridge of caliber .22 or larger with an overall loaded length of 2 inches or more; or

(b) Uses a cartridge of caliber .24 or larger with a case of length no less than the length of the case of a cartridge for a Remington magnum of caliber .44.

6. A person may hunt deer and mountain lion with a shotgun no larger than 10 gauge and no smaller than 20 gauge. Only rifled slugs or shotgun rounds with sabots that contain a single expanding projectile may be used when hunting deer. A shotgun that is used to hunt deer or mountain lion pursuant to this subsection may be equipped with a smoothbore barrel or a barrel that is partially or fully rifled.

[Bd. of Fish & Game Comm?rs, No. 25 ? 6, eff. 12-4-79 + No. 26 ? 6, eff. 12-4-79, A 5-12-80]?(NAC A by Bd. of Wildlife Comm?rs, 9-19-90; R155-97, 3-2-98; R176-03, 4-8-2004; R093-05, 10-31-2005; R185-05, 2-23-2006)
 
I have a friend that I told to use BH 209 when he drew his primo Nevada tag this year. I used it in 09 on my elk hunt, great stuff. Anyways, he told me the other day that he got a letter from NDOW saying BH 209 was NOT legal. He bought the gun I told him to, bought 3 cans of BH 209 and worked up a good load. Now it's not legal.

Scheels did take back the 2 cans that weren't opened. pretty nive of them.
 
Tell him he is not alone if that makes him feel better. I did the same thing but only bought 2 cans.

Good luck to your buddy.
 
I have a tag, ang I received a letter week before last stating Nevada had ruled BH209 to be a smokeless powder.
 
Bh209 is in fact nitrocelluose based. call the Utah fish and game yourself and ask if it's legal.i have seen a few post on various forums where people have called and were told it was not legal to use..if it's not just use the same charge of 777 loose and shoot away.
 

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