Boycott the Outdoormans's and Western Hunter?

7

7magman

Member
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-12 AT 03:06PM (MST)[p]What does the group think about not supporting the Outdoorsman's store, Wilderness Athlete and Western Hunter due to Floyd Green's and Chris Denham's support of the AZ SFW tag grab boondoggle.

I have bought many things from both WA and Outdoorsman's, but I will have to rethink my purchases after this botched effort by AZ SFW. I do not have inside knowledge if either individual pushed for the bill, but seeing as they are both on the AZ SFW board, they were complicit in the least.

What does everyone else think?
 
I already requested a full refund and canceled my subscriptions.

Screw these self serving goofballs.

Robb
 
I did read Ryan Hatfield's response in a forum listed in a link above. I think he's an honest guy and appreciated his work in Eastmans' Hunting Journal.
That being said with Denham and Green behind "Elk Hunter" (monetarily at least) as well, I should have included that magazine in the above boycott.
 
I think Hatfield and his Magazine got caught up in all this stuff. I would hate to see the guy lose the mag because of Denhams poor choices.
 
WapitiBob, I agree with what your saying about Hatfield's magazine.
Denham needs to be off the editorial board before I would consider subscribing. Like I said before, I think Ryan Hatfield is a stand-up guy and one heck of an editor.
 
I will cut ties with anyone or any company that is on SWF's side !! In a heart beat !! I wouldn't even want a FREE suscribtion to a magazine any of them were involved with !!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-12 AT 11:01AM (MST)[p]Really?

Any more "silly and crazy" than SFW trying to end-run sportsmen/women and getting 350 auction/raffle tags in Arizona?

Or...any more "silly and crazy" than SFW using political favors to seat a Director of Fish and Game in Alaska that doesnt even have a degree in Wildlife Management. And later is charged with illegally killing bears and using an oufitters license from an oufitter that doesnt even know him?

But, choosing to not use companies that endorse the above behavior by supporting SFW is silly?

Laffin'...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-12 AT 01:09PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-12 AT 01:07?PM (MST)

"That is just silly and crazy!!
Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com"


What kind a paycheck/bank deposit from The Non Profit Umbrella of $FW Con Orgs tax returns ~Advertising Deduction ~ goes into your....

Well never mind...

Robb
 
Maybe give us your rationale why not supporting these businesses is crazy and silly?

I realize they are probably the biggest advertisers on your site, but then just state that fact.

I have no problem with you profiting from their advertising, but don't act like that's not why you wrote the above referenced post.
 
>That is just silly and crazy!!
>
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com


When you want change, like it or not, financial impact is the shortest route.
 
Ironic....... An Elkhunter Magazine ad was at the bottom of this thread! :7 :7 (Though I think the ad's are rotated so it doesn't necessarily show every time.....)

IMO, it's not really crazy/silly. Consumers have the right to purchase goods and services (or not) where ever they choose, for what ever reason they choose. ;-)

S.

:)
 
I need a bit more information before I would get on board. (I don't have any info...) links would be nice. You all know how I feel about Tag uhm, "facilitators".
 
Beanman, there aren't newspaper articles about this SFW Arizona back-door deal.

A quick synopsis as I understand it:

AZ SFW drafted a law to put forth to the AZ legislature and took approximately 350 premium tags out of the draws and auction or raffle them off (also would have created an expo like the WCHE in SLC).
They had the gall to call it an emergency bill and tried to push it through with no public comment or involvement. A back-door deal of the worst kind. They were caught and the public backlash caused the legislative sponsor to permanently table the bill.
Floyd Green and Chris Denham are on the AZ SFW board so thus the reason for the question on the boycott of their respective businesses. I for one will think long and hard before I purchase or subscribe to anything they're involved with business-wise.
 
Not silly at all. Boycotts regularly bring clarity to business owners and government departments that are out of touch with the masses.

Any business or politician that thinks Don Peay is the answer must have not understood our question.

Also, anyone that thinks the AZ SFW offspring is not marching to Don's tunes is not paying attention. UT SFW provides the seed money and the playbook for how to finance your non-profit using proceeds from auction/lottery of the public's primo big game tags.

The SFW playbook is simple enough. Define the enemy as overwhelming and explain the old way of having Joe SixPack finance battles with the enemy and restore/expand the herds does not work. Often, the F&G is unable (or is illegal) to take on the political fight. Budgets for animals gets put near the back of the line after prisons, schools, etc.

This new approach takes big money. No one is handing out big money on the street corner. Big Game tags, however, are a license to print money with a little creative hocus pocus. Primo tags are worth more to Richie Rich than the face value the state collects when awards the same tag through a lottery.

Set up local chapters but do not give them democracy. They serve at your pleasure and they do not vote on policy nor the leadership at HQ.

Do not ask for just any tags when is time. Get the tags from the non-resident allotment (you know, those suckers can not vote a politician out of office) so the politician is creating surplus money without passing a tax or cutting anyone else's departmental budget. Residents tend to smile when the non-resident hunter gets the shapt. Is silly since we are all non-residents in every state but one.

Of course, Joe SixPack will now have fewer tags in the lottery but just leaving a couple of sheep tags in the lottery is enough to keep Joe applying.

Set up the expo. Award subcontracts to allies and those you want to shut up that are questioning the actions. Folks are quick to figure out which side of the bread slice is buttered.

Outfitters love the idea Richie Rich got a tag that last year went to Joe SixPack. Richie hires an outfitter. Outfitter likes this. Donations are made to the organization.

You have big money now the expo is underway. Maybe get a couple of big donors to chip in to your "seed money" to really get the ball rolling.

What if the herds do not grow. Say the deer herds in Utah. No problem. You mumble a bit and keep your tags. What if the herd grow. Say the elk in Utah. Well, then, time to fire up the PR machine!

Start spreading favors at the state capitol building. Grow your influence over how budgets are set for F&G. This growing influence shuts up the leadership bureacrats at F&G. Get your slate of commissioners on the Wildlife Board.

You can now push through legislation that you write and hand off to your pet senator. The wildlife board will not raise a stink. The F&G will not publicly raise a stink. Easy breezy.

Next, create tons of transferable landowner tags. The outfitters will grease the skids for that tactic. Got to have even more tags for Richie Rich so he can hire outfitters at top dollar.

The above playbook is brilliant. Most of us could be handed the palybook and screw it up 99 out of 100 attempts, though.

The concept of a new breed of organization that can get into messy political fights on behalf of Joe SixPack and state F&G is worthwhile, in my opinion.

The execution of the playbook has become very, very messy. Trust has been broken. Promises were quickly made during the power-building phase but slowly delivered upon. Who can forget the delay in financial reporting and Expo tag odds?

Most of us agree SFW has shot itself and its offspring in the foot.

Question. Toss out the baby with the bathwater? If so, what fills the void on the political battles?
 
Just like a story, there are two sides to this fight and Im not on SFW's side at all ! If someone wants to be involved with any of these guys thats ok with me but don't think Im supporting any one that does. Just start a topic with SFW in it and see what a firestorm it creats.
 
In all honesty, I have no clue why you all want to boycott Outdoormans or Western Hunter. I'm not up on the SFW Arizona thing. I just can't imagine that those guys are doing anything so badly that they need to be run out of business. Does anyone really deserve to be put out of work because they happen to have a different view of what's good for wildlife than you? What if your boss fired you tomorrow because you didn't share his views on wildlife management?

I'm sticking with silly!

I suppose now you'll call for a boycott of MM since I won't stand behind your boycott of Outdoorsman which won't boycott SFW.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Ok guys I just had to finally jump in here. DISCLOSURE-I write for Western Hunter Magazine and I shop at the Outdoorsmans in Phoenix. I DO NOT support the bill that was proposed. But I do need to say that I know alot of sportsman in Arizona and the two guys that historically have done more volunteering and selfless work for wildlife in Arizona is CHRIS DENHAM and FLOYD GREEN. These guys are respectful volunteers and should be thanked for some of the great things they have done over twenty years of fighting for wildlife but lots of things they have done very few know about. I do not know any of the details of why this bill was proposed. I am not here to argue about a bill I know nothing about. I know virtually nothing about AZ SFW. But I think that the only share a similar name as the one in Utah, nothing else. What I am here to say is that hands down these guys personally have dontated more time, money, blood, sweat and tears for doing what is right for wildlife in the state of Arizona. There has to be some reasons that these guys know about to do what they did. IS it possible that there are reasons not known to the common man like myself like lack of funds, anti attacks, lawsuits, wolves, etc that made these guys who have done nothing but give their time for twenty years. SPORTSMAN have spoken and the bill is DEAD. I stand with FLOYD and CHRIS because of their total scope of work for the last 20 years. Say what you want about guys you dont know but I AM GOING TO JUDGE SOMEONE BY THE SUM OF THIER WHOLE WORK......JUST SAYING....THE BILL IS DEAD!.....resume casting stones
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-12 AT 08:00PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-12 AT 07:57?PM (MST)

What is frustrating to me is i live in az and know pretty much everyone in the hunting loop here and i didnt hear about this bill till it was to late. I dont see how thats possible, unless something was being done that shouldnt have been done. Dont profess to know much about the whole deal, but how is it possible that something (the bill) so big with so many ramafications to the general public be kept so quiet. I would think that anyone involved with this bill either directly or indirectly should have wanted the general publics opinion of this bill. This bill absolutely stinked of greed at the highest level and i am suprised it was able to be kept under raps for so long without the ensuing uproar it would of created. My question is who was watching out for the arizona sportman in this case , cause the average guy didnt even have a clue that there was a fox near the chicken coop. There should be some kind of watch dog group that has nothing to gain what so ever, that reports on new stuff being proposed so at least someone can get the word out on what is being proposed every year. Whats next, action tags for black footed ferrets? Money, money, money, its the end of evrything!!!! I dont know either chris denam or floyd green and i have nothing negative to say about them. I do buy all my optics from the outdoorsman, and will continue to do so, due to their outstanding customer service. I hope that they didnt have anything to do with this bill, cause there is no way to paint a good picture of this bill no matter how you cut it up or spin it!!!! I would like one good reason other than money money money that this bill would have done for the sportman of arizona, especially the average hunter. taking tags away from us to sell of isnt going to help anyone other than the special few.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-12 AT 10:40PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-12 AT 08:28?PM (MST)

Very well said Couesmagnet.
That's my issue with this whole mess. Why did AZ SFW push this behind closed doors.
I have nothing personal against either Green or Denham, but someone needs to be held accountable for this situation. As they are on the AZ SFW Board of Directors, then some of that responsibility falls on them.
I know the bill is dead Mr. Scott, but why was it proposed in the first place? Where was the public involvement and input?

The Outdoorsman would have been a perfect place for sportsmen to discuss and have input on this bill.
That is my issue with this whole situation, AZ SFW (including Denham and Green) have some explaining to do on this issue.
I agree with Mr. Scott that both men have done great things for AZ wildlife and hunters.
It is a reality though that one huge mistake can tarnish an individuals reputation and undercut all the positive things they've accomplished.
AZ SFW needs to come clean on why this bill was concieved and written as poorly as it was. Why was it being pushed through as an emergency bill?

Until a satisfactory explanation is given, I will choose to purchase products and services from retailers that have not chosen to throw the average resident and non-resident hunter under the bus and kept them out of what should have been a very public process.
I do not believe I am casting stones at either gentleman, but having an open discussion is needed on this topic.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-12 AT 10:03PM (MST)[p]I'm not implying boycott- never been in the store
I got nothin agasint chris ,do not know floyd

but was hoping maybe Chris can come on here and explain why he did support this bill- a letter was posted stating in his own words why this was a good bill - and needed our support !!On 2 posts , 2 web sites but was removed for whatever reasons!

he basically highlites the really good stuff but doesnt mention all stuff we really object too!the bad

reminds me of the carfax commercials lol
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-12 AT 08:51PM (MST)[p]I dont think that talking about boycotting(sp) the outdoorsman is a good thing to do. We have been buying and getting our optics serviced there for years. We have never had a bad experience there and i would give them a 10 out of 10 for customer service. They have also helped us many times with warranty issues, and even gave us a loner pair of binos once after i ran over my swarovski 15's withg the dodge. I couldnt even imagine buying our optics from another store. The store is filled with class acts, and fellow sporman. I just think before anyone talks about boycotting a quality store filled with quality people , there should be a real reason for it. I think the facts should be figured out first before anyone jumps to any rash assumptions. Just my 2 cents. This billstiks like a skunks a$$ though. Also wanted to add that me and 99% of the people on here dont understand the inner workings of all the politics involved, and the big picture, but why was this bill done under an emergency type situation? WHAT WAS THE EMERGENCY?
 
As Field Editor of Wetstern Hunter & Hunting Editor of Elk Hunter Magazine, you should have stated you did not support this bill a lot sooner than this. You came on the CW forum stating you needed time to digest the bill to make a choice.....you never stated the choice after a weeks worth of posts. Silence is pretty loud sometimes. Funny you come here & post what you did, pretty much in support of your boss's. I know they are good guys too.....this is a crappy deal & there are a LOT of unanswered questions. Unfortunately, nobody is answering any questions at all. Again, silence is getting pretty loud these days. Sad situation for all AZ hunters.
 
Those two are fortunate the bill didn't pass this in time will all blow over IF they just come clean and give there side of the story. Pretty hard to defend the tag grab though. Whats more profitable the mag and the outdoorsman or SFW tags? Too bad they chased the SFW coin.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-12 AT 10:08AM (MST)[p]Over the past 10 years I have seen too many examples of DP getting his people in various F&G Dept.s and legislative positions. Slowly over time. Rossi & now Weiers are recent examples. Weiers unexpectantly popped out of nowhere. I just don't trust anybody connected with DP or SFW in any way, shape or form. That won't change for me. Not an option.

I never bought products from any of the vendors mentioned so it's not an issue for me. However, MM is a great forum to discuss these matters and I appreciate the minimal deletions that have occurred regarding political issues. Sponsors are a topic I choose to leave alone so as not to give Brian headaches. It was different when SFW was on board. I actually quit using MM back then. But that is no longer the case.
 
I know they are reading this so here it in a nutshell.
IF you was involved in it come on here in the hunters eyes and tell the world Nope it wasn't me.

If you was involved come on here and tell the Public hunters yes we did do it because of this reason.
Pretty plain and simple to do.
OR
you can keep mouth shut and left the People that shop and buy from you make up their minds from people who are saying that it was a tag grabbing thing and you was the main guys behind it.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Since I gave it a day.....just to make sure I wasn't on narcotics......please go to Coues Whitetail forums. Go to campfire. Go to the topic of HB 2072, first page....he basically says he is in support....."thinks there could be positive things for wildlife".

Positive things for wallets...........more than likely!
 
Gator, they HAVE come on here...see post 21

Regard the backpeddling fork-tongued emptiness.

I never shopped at Outdoorsman's because it has ALWAYS been ridiculously over-priced, and I don't read Western Chunder because it is simply a piss-poor publication; a glossy newsletter by a clique of self enamored blowhards to expound upon eachother's quite unspectacular 'virtues' and 'savviness' of fieldcraft, and pontificate about their indulgent, 'righteous' merit...it is also a shamelessly transparent gaudy advertisement for Floyd's shop.

So I guess my firm boycott has been in effect since the get go eh? Glad to see y'all finally recognize some of the snakes in the grass out there.
 
All of these large wildlife groups end up serving mostly the top elite few of their membership. They want hunting to become a rich only activity which it is well on its way to becoming, these groups only serve to hasten it. They talk about being for the "average guy" or being made up of "average guys", but what average guy do you know could get an emergency bill shoved in front of the legislature. That takes money, power, connections and worst of all for hunters, politics.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-12 AT 11:47PM (MST)[p]Hmmm...wonder why the post following 21 was deleted (don't remember the author's name)? It wasn't all too out of line from what I remember reading. Hit a little too close to home maybe?

Well, now THAT is a bit silly...
 
That post 21 is Jay, Not Green or Denham they are the ones who are the push behind the tags for SFW.Jay is just a writer for the Mag, BUT i see he on here to help his boss out with a weak-lip excuse.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Nah Gator, am very well aware of who the dude is...my point was that all them guys share a VERY small bed together

Y'all might check out the rat deer forum ASB suggested if you haven't already
 
My issue isn't so much with the bill, as poorly written as it was. It's the secrecy and lack of transparency that is alarming. If there's actual benefit from the bill for Arizona hunters and wildlife, it should be debated and discussed in a spirited, but reasoned manner.

Why was it hid from the public and Commission?

This is the one question that I was hoping somebody would be able to provide an answer. Until that happens the folks mentioned above will not be receiving any of my money.
 
What spooks me, is there are some guys I do know personally and respect Here in COLO That have been talking up SFW. Told them what I thought about the Utah ?x-poo? and haven't heard from them again. I better get back in that e-mail loop. To everyone out there. The current Auction and Raffle tags we have in COLORADO are more than ENOUGH!

As a Non Resident Arizona hunter and perpetual ?rat deer? applicant. I am glad the bill has been tabled down there.

As for the Outdoorsman Hey their post bino/ tri pod adapter for the 15?s is way better than Saworos.
I beat their price on my scope and my 15?s but did get my 10 by 32?s there. The ?CODY? guy on the phone is top shelf in the knowledge and customer service department. Boycott? Not yet.. Got some fact finding to do? But this has left a mark.
The publications. I would suggest this be explained in the editors comments on page one of the next issue and let those of us who subscribe decide. If it is not addressed ?well question answered.
I think we are ALL very passionate about our wildlife. I think we ALL put our money where we feel it will do the most for wildlife. But I think ALL organizations and State Game Agencies better rethink their tag allocation raids. NO more tags taken from the State Draws.
Post 16 Outdoors, Thank you. You scared the hell out of me. I will do some checking on CO SFW
 
I wanted to start by saying that i spent over a 130 days in the field this year since august 1st. I have been everywhere and anywhere it seems this year. 54 days in the 13b, 13 days in new mexico 16d, 5 days in 4b, 23 days in 17-18s for archery elk, 12 days in 22 looking for coues, back to 23 for 7 more days, 10 days in the desert late archery with friends, 7 days in 21 for coues, and last but not least 15 days on the san carlos in january. You get the point, or maybe not yet, and im not bragging just stating the facts. HERE IS THE BIGGER POINT THOUGH, I DIDNT PUT EVEN 1 DAY INTO VOLUNTEERING/ HELPING/FIGHTING ANTI'S/ GIVING MY OPINIONS IN ORDER TO HELP FURTHER HUNTING . I DIDNT DO A DAMN THING TO FURTHER HUNTING IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM, OTHER THAN PLUNDER BIG BUCKS AND BULLS FROM THE OUTDOORS. I feel like it would be easy to come on here and trash guys that have helped with their time instead of selfishly hunting their lives away like me. I havent given a dollar to any organization that furthers hunting, nor have i even taken the time to learn about any issues facing hunting at the time. I hate to make myself look so bad , but it is for a bigger reason. Do you guys get the point. Now floyd and chris and many others, so i have been told, have been very active in the issues and fights that surround hunting today. They must have stayed home a few days when i was hunting, and they probably gave dollars out of their pockets to help these fights unlike my selfish a$$. I have no affiliation what so ever with the magazine or the outdoorsman(absolutely none other than being a customer). NOW ON THE FLIP SIDE (THE GENERAL PUBLIC)::::: I think where the guys that were involved with this bill went totally wrong and i mean really wrong was not informing the general public of their proposed HB thing. I know they have their reasons for staying quiet, 1 of them being they didnt want to give the anti's time to rally against it. I dont think we should ever keep important things from ourselves(fellow hunters) in order to keep the anti's uninformed. Thats the true beginning of a dictatorship and just the few making decisions for the whole, and borders on someone thinking they are God and know more than the rest. I think we should inform all hunters about problems within hunting whether the enemy is listening or not, and that the only thing these guys did wrong. So we are going to sacrifice our own collective knoledge for the sake of the enemies? I THINK THE GENERAL PUBLIC DESERVES TO KNOW WHEN THINGS LIKE THIS COME UP AND I DONT WANT ANYONE TO MAKE A BIG DECISION LIKE THIS WITHOUT MY INPUT and behind closed doors. Now should we get a rope and go after the guys that tried to push this bill thru, I THINK NOT. REMEMBER WHERE I WAS THIS YEAR WHILE THESE GUYS ARE FIGHTING FOR OUR HUNTING RIGHTS. THESE GUYS HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR US AND US IS YOU GUYS WHILE I WAS SELFISHLY JUST HUNTING. HAVE WE ALL BECOME SO FORGETFUL AND UNFORGIVING TO NOT LOOK BACK OVER THE YEARS AND SEE WHAT THESE GUYS MAY HAVE DONE FOR US ALL. I want to give encouragement to guys that are at least trying to help us all even if they make a giant mistake, not start greesing the rope hung over the tree. LET GUYS MAKE A MISTAKE. What do you guys think they were going to do, sell all the tags they would have recieved and go on vacations and buy gold chains. Spare me. There is no way i can see that they would have benefited from the extra tags, in any shape or form. If anyone can think of a reason they would of got anything out of the deal please inform me so i can rethink my philosophy. I think these guys messed up by not telling us all about the bill especially when they have the venue to do so with the mag(hell it could of been their 1st article), but to sit here and trash their store and talk about boycotts is downright irresponsibe in my mind from fellow hunter to fellow hunter. WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THESES GUYS WERE GIVING THEIR TIME AND MONEY TO HELP US ALL, CAUSE I KNOW WHERE I WAS(DOING NOTHING). I WONT FORGET THE GUYS WHO FIGHT FOR ME,WILL YOU (JUST INFORM ME OF THE FIGHT AND THE REASONS FOR IT OTHERWISE MY ENEMY IS BETTER INFORMED THAN ME). GIVE EM A BREAK BOYS AND GENTELMEN.
 
Who is worse, the guy that does nothing ever to help or the guy that tries to help all the time and messes up every long once and a while?
 
Wait i'm not done yet. After talking with several friends that are much more informed than me about issues that we as hunters are facing right now and more importantly issues that are right around the corner, i have become fearful of the future of hunting in our awesome state of arizona. With additional wolf reintroductions trying to be pushed thru as we speak along with the age old defense of our rights to hunt in the first place. Over all i'm glad that this whole bill thing came up, cause its a chance for people like me to learn more or at least start paying more attention to these issues. From my understanding from direct sources, there is a need to raise additional capital to properly fight some of the new and very serious threats that face us all as hunters. This bill would have been an easy way to raise some of the additional funds needed to fight some new and impending fights. From what i am hearing floyd from the outdoorsman and allan hamberlin and others have spent a huge amount of money from their personal pocket books to fight for not only their rights but it seems our's also. If they proposed this bill to relieve the strain on their own pocket books, and maybe give SOME OF THE RESPONSIBILITY BACK TO THE HUNTERS, i think that's a very fair thing to do. The additional revenue would also give them and others a chance to bring the fight to other impending issues. I would be all for some more tags being alloted to be sold to fund these fights. This has nothing to do with fat cats getting fatter, and everything to do with preparing for war with people that want to deny us our right to hunt. If it would have been explained this way, i would have voted for the bill(i would have been good with half as many tags as they proposed though). If the bill isnt a good idea, then what is? LETS TURN THIS POST INTO A POSITIVE ONE AND HELP FLOYD AND THE OTHERS FIGURE OUT WHAT WE AS SPORTSMAN CAN DO TO HELP EVEN IF IT'S ONLY FINACIALLY. My idea is to set up a fund where you can donate 5 or 10 dollars , and there could be a very long drawn out explanation of exactly where the funds went, instead of selling more tags. What are your guys ideas? I would like to thank floyd and allan hamberlin and the others that unselfishly give their time and money to fight for us all. From what i am hearing they have spent enough of their own money to have purchased several of the mule deer action tags, but chose to spend it on us and our rights instead. Wow sounds like a money grab to me (I THINK NOT). WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT HOW WE ARE GOING TO HELP THE OUTDOORSMAN AND OTHERS WITH THE MONEY NEEDED, NOT TRYING TO RIP THEM NEW AHOLES. Whose going to help the fight and who is going to spend their time tearing down our soldiers. Lets start a fund, and have everything out in the open from now on. Thanks floyd and allan for all your help, and sorry that i didnt understand the big picture, just keep us informed.
 
couesmagnet-

If you truly cannot see any way that these groups and individuals would benefit from the money and power that would been generated from these tags then you are either naive or dumb. I hope that you had a guide/babysitter with you at all times during your 100+ days in the field this year. As a basic introduction to the issue, please read post #16 above. If you still cannot see any way that these groups and individuals would benefit from these tags after reading that post, then you are a hopeless cause. Keep sipping the Kool-Aid.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-12 AT 12:12PM (MST)[p]That's really pathetic when the only defense for a greedy, unethical, lying, dishonest organization is pointing at someone else and spewing.............well look they are bad too! And this is no new thing. Their defenders have spewed that same sad excuse for 10 years!

I live in Illinois and spent 6 years as a board member of the largest conservation org in the state. All our great projects were volunteer, including lobbying and legal fees. We got things done without stealing a penny from anybody. I hunted New Mexico last season and am a member of United Bowhunters of New Mexico. I involve myself even from here by writing legislators. I hope all these scams in UT & AZ spur a few people to wake up, get organized and replace SFW with a group like I was a part of here.

Hell the way SFW has things going I strongly contend Utah would be a hell of a lot better off having no sportsmen's organizations at all! The North American Model of Wildlife Conservation has done just fine on it's own in the last 100 years before SFW!
 
couesmagnet-

I am your neighbor to the North fom the great State of Utah. Thanks to SFW and other "conservation" groups we have been giving hundreds of tags a year (540 this year alone) to "conservation" groups which have been sold for millions of dollars. Have you hunted Utah before? Do you believe that the hunting/herds/management in Utah is markably better than other states such as Arizona, Colorado, Wyoming, etc.? Utah has more conservation/convention permits that all other western states combined. Why hasn't this resulted in improved deer herds? Simply put, there are many of us who doubt that these tags actually translate into increased opportunity and quality for the general public.

As an Arizona resident and outdoorsman, if you want to go down this road in your state, more power to you. However, it sounds like the majority of Arizona hunters saw this bill as what it really was--an attempted tag grab. There is a reason these groups tried to pass the bill as an emergency measure in the dark of night. If that doesn't make sense to you then I surrender.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
>couesmagnet-
>
>If you truly cannot see any
>way that these groups and
>individuals would benefit from the
>money and power that would
>been generated from these tags
>then you are either naive
>or dumb. I hope
>that you had a guide/babysitter
>with you at all times
>during your 100+ days in
>the field this year.
>As a basic introduction to
>the issue, please read post
>#16 above. If you
>still cannot see any way
>that these groups and individuals
>would benefit from these tags
>after reading that post, then
>you are a hopeless cause.
> Keep sipping the Kool-Aid.
>
>
>Hawkeye
>
>Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
>Winchester Apex .50 Cal
>Mathews Drenalin LD
First of all hawkeye, thanks for the babysitter remark. I wasnt saying that to brag, but to prove a point man. I don't need a babysitter in the field, well maybe every once and a while (lol). All of my animals i have been taken are fair chase and on public land. I have never been guided on a single hunt in my life, and i am not dumb. I would rather have you spend your time attacking me than the others though. I am also your friend due to our common bond of hunting, remember that. I have never posted any of my pics or our families pics of many many boone and crockett and pope and young animals on the site for fear of the crazy remarks that seems to fallow alot of others. I feel sometimes like if i was to post some antler porn that someone would have something negative to say, and i dont need it. If i was to post a pic though i would say underneath the caption that i shot the buck with my bow hanging out of a helicopter at night with night vision and the use of our top secret satelites, and last but not least a stealth helicopter just to quelch the haters. Im not talking directly to you hawkeye, but you see the point. I was just trying to give my 2 cents and you have to use derogatory remarks directed at me. I might not be good at much brother , but dont attack me for something i am damn good at. I also dont have a pot to piss in and im not moaning about governors tags and the guys that have the cake to buy them(i am a little bit jeolous thogh). I am also not dumb or stupid as i have had the highest level of education that this great country has to offer(post grad level). Can we get back to the issues and figure out what we can do to help generate more money to fight. I dont need to read post whatever, but i do value post number 16 for his opinion. Lets rally together and quit throwing hand grenades into our own huddle. Peace out hawkeye.
 
It really isn't rocket science.

Not too many rational thinking adults would support a plan where an Organization auctions off "Company A's product", keeps all the money for themselves, then gives "what's left" back to said Company.
It's ass backwards.
 
>It really isn't rocket science.
>
>Not too many rational thinking adults
>would support a plan where
>an Organization auctions off "Company
>A's product", keeps all the
>money for themselves, then gives
>"what's left" back to said
>Company.
>It's ass backwards.


How do we make it a$$forwards then. It also isnt rocket science to have a solid accounting for the funds and exactly when and where the funds were used available to the general public. If that cant be done then i wouldnt give a dollar and would agree that something fishy is going on. I dont know anything about the utah organization that is being lumped into the az organization, and i dont know much about the arizona organization, but the guys that i know that are involved with the az org. being talked about on here are not crooks.
 
Cous you ought to give Don a call I bet he'd hire you in a minute, you have that spin down perfect. I thought all the coolaid drinkers live in Ut?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-12 AT 06:12PM (MST)[p]Its all good my brothers, and poor it on. Remember that we are all brothers, and all addicted to the same thing and all have a common bond, There isnt a guy on here that i wouldnt stop to help in the field everyday of the week,even if i was pissed off at him. I just think if we put the amount of emotion, time, and energy that some seem to spend on here tearing people apart like ravenous wolves, we would kick serious a$$ in regards to the real issues at hand. I dont live in utah, and have only hunted the vernon unit for deer, where we shot a 189 inch buck. I hope we dont become like utah( the land of the 2 by 2) here in az. I would like to see other venues of raising funds other than selling tags, and my point was just that. I just had a real problem when people jump to rash conclusions(warning;not fact just my 2 cents) and possibly put a business or a fledgeling magazine at possible economic harm without knowing all the facts. I know nothing of the utah organization, and frankly i could care less what they are doing over there. I also think that the whole time on here we are treating the az organization as equal and the same as the utah one. Alot of anger at the utah org. seems like its being given to the az org. Again fellas my hats off to anyone who can fix the problem in a diff way then selling tags. Sorry if i offended anyone on here, but last time i checked, everyone was entitled to their own opinion, but it seems that opinions to some are just not allowed. I am going for a 16 oz glass of cool ade now, where is that damn vodka now when i need it. Lol , over and out on any more replies on this one. Looks like i have some fact finding to do and alot to learn.
 
Couesmagnet, I think you've misunderstood the intent of this thread. It was intended to promote discussion on this topic. Notice the question mark in the title.

I'm sure that all the people you have mentioned above have done great things for wildlife and I commend them for that.

I would just like transparency and answers on why was this bill kept in the dark.
If there's good reasons for the bill, then AZ SFW needs to be out promoting those reasons, instead of silence from everybody involved with this bill.
 
Couse, it's real easy. The game dept allows an org to auction off a tag and the org gets a percentage, 10 up here, the rest goes to the game dept.
 
Heck, since is a great idea to turn over a few 100 tags then I propose an even better idea. Let's have every last tag bid on. Yep, get the states out of that cumbersome process of awarding tags by lottery. No more drawing two tags that overlap in different states since you just buy a tag when you have time to go hunt. No more pesky deposits to send off when applying for tags here in the West. You are in charge of your destiny rather than some complex lottery system you need a PhD to understand. I know, you are welcome!

I suppose the state has the staff and infrastructure where they could auction 100% of the tags themselves but seems safer to turn over the process to a group of outsiders (wink, wink). This is not a game for children.

Okay, now we have the ball rolling and we are getting millions raised to fight the good fight. We just need a bit more money. With that money we can grow the herds and put more game on the mountain. Hmmmmmm....bingo! Now it is time to have the outside group auction off access to state forests, lakes and other items. That Antelope Island gig was a wonderful success so let's expand this to every bit of state property. Just think, you can relax in your own state forest while chasing the wapiti!

I am not asking for comments on this since we are in an emergency. EMERGENCY for those of you too stupid to understand all the good that will come out of this. Thanks in advance for your understanding and support!
 
I always admired Arizona for not giving in to special interest tags.One only needs to look at Utah to see how repulsive it becomes. YES I will do my part to fight the tag grabs and I will not buy from outfits that support it. BH1
 
Hey some states back east have leased their entire Interstate toll roads (I 90 Indiana) to other countys for 75 plus years never thought I'd see something like that . Outdoor you might not be that far off. It's all about the $$$$$$$$$$$
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-12 AT 09:29AM (MST)[p]It's always about the money. If you have money you can lobby and get legislation passed favorable to your cause. If you have enough money you can hire enough great legal minds to get legislation passed that virtually makes the states and individuals helpless to have grounds for a case or an appeal. That's partially why the wolf reintroductions have been jammed down our throats. The states don't have the funding to continue to fight the lawsuits and their agenda marches on. They don't have the popular vote on their side just legislation in place that allows them to march forward and continue to dismantle what it took decades to build by legislating thru our judicial system.

Recently, we finally fought back a little and you saw them realize they had to back down ( fear of federal laws being passed ) so they backed off a bit and we have limited controlled hunts going on in some states ( a big step forward). We need to keep the pressure on so that legislation gets passed to put the states back in control of the wildlife. Then we need to make it so the ESA and EPA has language written into it to give the states and individuals the right to manage it's wildlife, resources, and lands. Take away the legislaion by the judicial process that has worked so well for them and then here comes the big one write in language where the states and individuals have the right to bring suit for damages incurred as a result of their actions. States can go after lost tax revenues, hunting tags, fishing revenues decreases etc (we have to fund our wildlife agency's) and individuals can go after them for job loss and damages as a result of their actions. We also need to make them foot the bill for what they want done all the studies (by impartial agencys), without reimbursement from our federal tax dollars.

Make them pay for their own legal expenses not have the taxpayer pick up the tab (unknowingly) for the majority of legal costs. There are law firms in this country that exist solely on this type of practice and their main clients are CBD, Sierra Club. Defenders of Wildlife, PETA and HSUS. By the way they also employ SEVERAL full time lobbyists and attorneys in many states where they are working to promote their agenda and attend every meeting by our States fish and wildlife department. These people exist solely to advance their agenda!

Now where is the representation for the hunting community? A few individuals who volunteer their time and usually are members of some conservation club. Gee let me see they have full time employees and we have a bunch of guys that have to spend their own dime just to get there. In spite of their best efforts we keep getting our azzes handed to us? Still think money doesn't matter?

The way things are now they go after what ever they want and don't have any liability on anything. They take away thousands of jobs, disrupt entire areas economy's, close down stores, hotels, restaurants, and disrupt the cash flow on numerous other endeavors. We in effect are picking up the tab to do all this to ourselves. Still think money doesn't matter? Money matters boys it's just that we don't distort our message to the public with furry little kitten or puppy ads generating $$$$ every single day. We aren't putting up websites featuring the call of El Lobo asking for money used to dismantle hunting. No we're sitting here doing what we do best fighting amongst ourselves, looking for a pound of flesh, getting out the rope, getting pissed about what they were going to do with my tag, degrading other clubs who may have been a member of AZSFW, boycotting businesses who actually fund hunting thru the Pittman Robertson taxes on the sale of their products.

We're so busy arguing in the huddle that we didn't even notice the game ended and the other team won. We got the bill stopped!! GREAT!! I think they heard us!! Now it's time we pick up the pieces and go on not continue to tear apart what little representation we have left and I'm not only speaking of Outdoorsmans. The way you guys want to drag people thru the mud, it really does wonders for getting another guy to want to get involved (why would anybody risk it). We have guys attacking every single club and differing opinion in the state!

Yep I can see where this boycott & mud slinging & pound of flesh crap is really working out..... FOR WHO?
 
I dont know about you guys, but i am going to duck my head back under the sand and go huntn today. After all this arguing, i have to go take it out on a big ole coues deer today. I hope my arrow shaft looks like a cherry snow cone when i am done. I just wanted to let everyone who posted on this topic know that i and others appreciate and respect their input on this delicate subject. Watch out mr. coues deer cause here it comes.
 
couesmagnet-

Good luck hunting and post some pictures if you get a buck!

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Coues-I like the way you think.Boskee-You just killed this thread.When it's spelled out like you just spelled it out-pretty hard to argue your point.If there's anyone out there who can argue Boskee's point-let's hear it!United we stand,divided we fall.Can anyone ever come up with a group we all like and support?Everyone has their own ideas,but no one ever does anything!Well,except come on here and gripe about the way things are...
 
Try to take tags under cover of darkness so the wealthy can jump the line after most of us are waiting years....divided. Some of these long winded responses could be made alot shorter by just saying " you fellas can't think for yourself so we'll do the thinking for you". Are all the animal rights groups that are being talked about trying to cut each others throat with back door deals also or are they all on the same page? Last year NM took away alot of nonres. tags so you can't count on going over there every few years. I really have a hard time with anyone wanting to do what AZSFW was wanting to do with AZ tags. Me and my family have alot of time and money invested to just have someone tell me... it's in your best interset. Leave the tags alone and I'm ok.
 
I agree nontip, but thats the same old argument everytime someone get caught with their had in the cookie jar,(SFW) it's the same crap "We need to stick together blah blah" Well quit doing Sh.t that divides us!!!!
 
Firing up the diesel as we speak. Looking for rat deer is so addicting its hard to explain. Sometimes i wonder what the eastern whitetail guys must think when they watch me turn into a quivering bowl of jello when i see a buck over 110 cross my path. Everyone ought to stop for a second a take a deep breath and sit back and think of their best memory in the field. That ought to bring a little peace and calmness to one another for a sec or two. Remember that the dude posting a diff post than the other with a totally diff opinion is in reality just trying everything he can to get back to that awesome memory in the field a second or third time. The thought of giving tags away or taking them from the draw system is very threatening to that memory isnt it. Im already a little worried that the rat deer i will be chasing today will have a wolf hot on his tail when i see him this afternoon(lol). It was my understanding that 80% of the tags that had to do with this bill where going to be raffled off and not sold to the highest bidder. With the draw odds the way they are, i would be tickled to buy a 5 dollar ticket to have about the same chance of drawing a tag thru the lottery. That would give an equal chance to the average guy as the wealthy guy in my opinion. As for the non residents, buying a 5 dollar ticket would probably give you a better chance to win a tag as the draw gives you. Again, selling tags should be a last case resort, and every other avenue should be explored before a tag sale. Excuse me fellas there are coues deer taunting me from afar, and i must oblige their sneeky beckoning dares to come out and play.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-12 AT 01:18PM (MST)[p]>Boskee-You
>just killed this thread.When it's
>spelled out like you just
>spelled it out-pretty hard to
>argue your point.If there's anyone
>out there who can argue
>Boskee's point-let's hear it!

I will be glad to take you up on your offer. No problem! And I will do so with 2 questions. Extremely simple.

If all these millions of dollars are indeed being used for lobbying, consultation and attorney fees to win these critical legal battles, why doesn't SFW simpy provide a detailed downbreak of dislcosure of what expenses are being used for which legal battle and be done with it. Why 10 years of no transparency??? If their cause is so important and they are so effective at what they do, why not disclose and explain the specifics to AZG&F and the sportsmen rather than take the unethical midnight bend-over your gonna love this method? Why? Please tell us.

I say leave the north american model for wildlife conservation alone. It's been doing just fine the last 100 years for ALL sportsmen.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-12 AT 03:08PM (MST)[p]Zim you're jumping to conclusions here. WE defeated the bill!! I didn't advocate taking tags anywhere in this post, nor did I say I supported SFW. I did however advocate that we as sportsmen need to try to find a way to get united, get funded and get organized to be able to defeat the enemy. You keep trying very hard to read things that I didn't say into things that I did. Read what I did say Zim not what you mistakenly think I implied. Hell we have people attacking every single conservation group in AZ as a result of this mess and accusing people that had no idea about this bill that they were implicated. Maybe you got confused by the boycott Sportsman's and Western Hunter title because in reality it's gone way way beyond this and that was my point. When and where does it stop? That's the point Zim! If I missed your intent with the response and it wasn't directed at me accept my apology.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-12 AT 04:09PM (MST)[p]Boskee,

I think you're wrong, there is no way that sportsmen are going to "unite" behind crap like this latest AZSFW tag grab.

Hunting has become an industry...a huge industry. With that, comes corruption, greed, and everything else that is associated with any other big industry.

The common DIY joe-lunchbox hunter who believes in the North Ameican Model of Wildlife conseration is never going to unite behind the wealthy, self-centered sportsmen who think its a great idea to just buy your way to the front of the line.

Wont happen, and you'd have more luck pi$$ing up a rope than getting most average DIY public land hunters to agree to sell off the publics resources to the highest bidder.

If you want to unite hunters, quit allowing them to be divided by the GREED of the industry...pure and simple. Keep everything on a level playing field, its so fuggin' easy its ridiculous.

Trouble is though, those that are profitting from the Wildlife Resource are never going to stop going after the publics wildlife at the expense of the average guy. They've forgotten what seperates hunting here in the U.S. with what they have in Europe, Africa, etc...that being the NAM, and in particular equal access to wildlife by ALL citizens, not just the wealthy.

You're trying to blame guys like me, the average DIY public hunter for not "uniting"...what a joke.

Let me say this, I'll fuggin' join PETA and every other anti-hunting group before I fall in and "unite" with the likes of SFW. Their agenda is to break the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and take from the very people that have successfully brought wildlife to the point its at today. Further, we, the average sportsmen, did so without groups that threaten the very cornerstones of the best wildlife conservation model in the WORLD.

The one group, that I can say without a doubt, that is creating the largest division amoung hunters is SFW. They do more to divide hunters than any anti-hunting group ever thought of.

Anyone with a half a firing brain cell can see it...just read any topic about SFW on this board for the first clue.
 
Buzz point out exactly where I said take tags from sportsmen or where I said I supported SFW in that post. See you guys get so obsessed with SFW you don't take time to read what people actually write.

Yet we sit there and wonder why we have issues. WE have issues because we can't see the forest thru the trees. You guys are so blinded by SFW that instead of really reading what I wrote you think it applies to them, it doesn't. While you're whittling away at me for being so naive it's you that continue to not
be able to understand that we need $$$$ BY SOME SOURCE, We NEED LEGISLATION, WE NEED TO GET UNITED TO BE ABLE TO WAGE A FIGHT. It ain't happening because so many amongst us can't understand what we are up against. It doesn't have to be SFW it doesn't have to be using tags but unless we can Get united on some damn front we aren't going to win. Look how much ground we've already lost and they're attacking us every single day.

We are never going to beat this enemy unless we get together in some manner and get legislation passed to protect what we love to do. That plain and simple takes MONEY and legislative support.

Things have changed from our past glory days that allow them to move forward and looking at what's happened in the courts we aren't prevailing. They're hitting us on many fronts and have even more planned in the future. Playing patty cake ain't getting it done BUZZ and their long line of victory's are proof positive that what we're doing or used to do is vulnerable in our judicial system.

I'm not dismantling the North American Model Of Hunting the anti's are doing that but at least I'm aware enough to know when I'm being bent over and fully understand unless something changes they're going to continue to keep doing it. I'm not the problem here BUZZ it's guys like you that think the old days are here forever and things will work out...How's that going for ya? If it's working why are we still losing in court? Think old Judge Malloy has hunters best interests at heart? He's already taken more tags with that gavel than you and I will ever see.
 
Boskee, Sorry I was not replying to you. My response was to Nontypical's challenge. Your name just apperaed in his post.
 
I could not agree more with Buzz's post above. There is no compromise when it comes to this issue. The 4th principal of the north american model for wildlife conservations says:

http://www.rmef.org/Hunting/HuntersConservation/Model.htm

Hunting Opportunity for All
Every citizen has an opportunity, under the law, to hunt and fish in the United States and Canada.

Regardless of your social status, race, creed, religion or gender, you have the right to legally hunt and fish on most public lands in North America.

Hunters and anglers led the crusade for wildlife protection a century ago. For instance, before Theodore Roosevelt became president, he helped found the Boone and Crockett Club. The club?s Fair Chase Statement was the first document outlining a code of conduct and ethics for hunters and anglers. It became a cornerstone of our game laws

****************************************************************

It does not say:

Hunting Opportunity for All........after 332 of the best tags are removed and auctioned to the highest bidder who did not wait in line 16 years for their opportuniy.

Every citizen has an opportunity, under the law, to hunt and fish in the United States and Canada..........except for the 332 premium tags which shall be reserved for the wealthy to cut in line.

Regardless of your social status, race, creed, religion or gender, you have the right to legally hunt and fish on most public lands in North America............if you are the high bidder for one of the 332 premium tags which shall be reserved for the wealthy.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-12 AT 10:33PM (MST)[p]still waiting for these people to come on here THEMSELVES and tell us something ,its that simple

chris , floyd , anyone else involved or on the board of azsfwc ? where are you!!
 
Buzz, thanks for providing some clarity to this argument. AZSFW is a joke and obviously doesn't represent anyone except the AZ guides who try to get their names in the Huntin Fool.

To lead an effort to backdoor the general hunting public is unforgivable, regardless of their past deeds. Notice how the only people supporting AZSFW and this ridiculous bill are big name AZ guides? Or close friends thereof? Who has the most to gain from the addition of 300+ potentially guided hunts? hmm...

Is the AZGFD hurting for money? Seems they have some of the cheapest tags in the west. What other state has $232 non resident deer tags and $595 elk tags? Lets raise prices for residents and non-residents before we consider auctioning off hundreds of tags to the highest bidder.

As far as Outdoormans and Western Hunter, who cares if they go away? Everything you can buy at the Outdoormans can be purchased at Cabelas or Sportsmans Warehouse for half the price. The Western Hunter is mostly advertising for Outdoormans and generally goes in the trash at my household without ever opening a page. I get it free somehow, I think through the AZ Elk Society membership. Wilderness Athlete is just a knock off of CLIF bars and a hundred other options, no big loss there. But if you feel good about paying double for the "privilege" of shopping at the Outdoormans, then be my guest. It wouldn't bother me at all if they went out of business and took AZSFW with them.

AZSFW made a bet and lost. They have lost the trust of the general hunting public and should suffer the consequences of their actions. They have done more to try to divide the AZ hunting community than anyone. Ironically they have united most of the AZ DIY hunters like never before in support to defeat this ridiculous bill.

Buzz is right, I would rather send money to PETA or the Center for Biological Diversity than AZSFW. At least I know where these groups stand...

The question AZ hunter should be asking themselves is how they would feel if this bill had actually gone through. Would you go out of your way to pay double to shop at the Outdoorman's then? Funny to bring up the Pittman Robertson act while simultaneously trying to take public tags, What a Joke!

As Yoda would say "The shroud of the dark side has dropped, begun the tag pimp war has"!
 
Gosh if its all about generating mo money for the states game management why not charge the residents what the non residents have been puttin up? BH1
 
Az build, your idea of raising the tag prices non res and res is a great idea. Just adding 5-10 dollars to the price of all big game tags would probably generate more money than the tag sale itself. I also havent seen floyd or been into the outdoorsman for over 2 years. floyd probably doesnt even know who i am. Just wanted to make that clear. I wonder though, can the game and fish directly fight some of the stuff we are facing or do they need a 3rd party like some of the groups mentioned to do some of the fighting for them 3rd party style due to internal politics within their own agency. Just wondering. Great idea on the tag prices. I also understand why some say they have lost trust in these organizations. As usual i was humbled this afternoon by mr coues deer, seems like a sick joke to me at times while they watch me run around the mountain all afternoon. I swear i heard them laughing at me as i retreated back to the truck or was that just a snort.
 
I think what many hunters dont realize is that they have more power in deciding their fate in many of these issues than they realize.

You dont need money to send a very clear message to the legislature on many of these issues. I've seen it, first hand. A perfect example is what happened in Montana this last legislative session where the MT legislature went after the MTFWP, Public Access, and MT hunters in general.

You organize bus loads of hunters to travel to the State Capital to carry the message that hunters are serious about the future of the sport. Nothing makes a bigger difference to those that are elected to their positions than seeing a packed house of their constituents commenting and testifying on the issues.

Sure, having sporting groups behind you doesnt hurt...as long as those groups are actually bothering to poll their membership and keep their membership informed on the issues.

I flat dont think that happens with SFW...they do what will make SFW more money...and gain them more power. Doing what the membership wants or what the average guy wants...not a chance.

The job of the Game and Fish is to manage wildlife...and again, SFW has infiltrated and gerry-mandered that, making it more difficult for them to their jobs. Look no further than the bullchit that got Corey Rossi appointed as director of the AK Game and Fish. Another perfect example is how UTSFW is now controlling the UTDNR. Yet another is how AZSFW just tried to end-run the Arizona Game and Fish as well as the Commission on 2072. How WYSFW has endorsed outfitter sponsered tags in WY as well as transferable land owner tags....the list goes on and on.

Groups that pull crap like the above, obviously are not in touch with their membership or the average sportsmen...no way.
 
Okay here's a question for some of you naysayers? Why is it that the NRA is so successful fighting antigun legislation and promoting gun owners rights? Even if you don't like the NRA their methods are successful. What is it that the NRA has that we as hunters don't? If we were to build, join or expand an organization with the NRA's funding, legislative clout, lobbying and ability to pass protective federal hunting legislation in Washington, wouldn't that be beneficial to us all.

I'm not advocating SFW but maybe something along the lines of a US Sportsman's Alliance on steroids with more money and definately more political clout. Look at how many positive things US Sportsman's Alliance does now. Well how much more could it do with 10-20 times the funding it has today.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-12 AT 09:22AM (MST)[p]>Okay here's a question for some
>of you naysayers? Why is
>it that the NRA is
>so successful fighting antigun legislation
>and promoting gun owners rights?
>Even if you don't like
>the NRA their methods are
>successful. What is it that
>the NRA has that we
>as hunters don't? If we
>were to build, join or
>expand an organization with the
>NRA's funding, legislative clout, lobbying
>and ability to pass protective
>federal hunting legislation in Washington,
>wouldn't that be beneficial to
>us all.
>
> I'm not advocating SFW but
>maybe something along the lines
>of a US Sportsman's Alliance
>on steroids with more money
>and definately more political clout.
>Look at how many positive
>things US Sportsman's Alliance does
>now. Well how much more
>could it do with 10-20
>times the funding it has
>today.

I agree with your opinion of US Sportsmsn's Alliance. I've followed them for many years and they have done some really good things legislatively. I can't recall ever reading anything negative about them. However, the huge difference is they do not get funding from public land tags. Therefor they eliminate the temptation for abuse of them. Dipping into this public land pool will ALWAYS result in corruption, by someone, somewhere along the lines. It's a real bad idea to have any of these governor's tags. Every single one compromises the north americam model of wildlife conservation. Every one. Once you make an excuse for stealing public tags for one group for ANY purpose.........everyone will want them for their cause. It will never end.

There may be legal battles that need to be fought in the interest of sportsmen. But there are limits as to how these should be funded. Robbing banks........kidnapping for cash........stealing private property.........stealing public property..........stealing public hunting tags. These should not be options. Stealing is stealing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-12 AT 10:02AM (MST)[p]Buzz you make some very valid points that I agree with, but in essence we both know you have to fight the battles on more than one front to win the war. We have to fight in Washington at the federal level, at the state level and at the grassroots level thru the sportsmen getting involved. We as sportsmen do wield a lot of power like you suggested, with our influence and our VOTE.

The main point that Buzz and every one of us should agree on is to get involved. If you can't attend meetings donate some money to an organization that supports hunting. If every hunter was to budget $200.00 per year to give to 4 worthwhile organizations we can collectively make a difference. If you can't afford that much budget what you can or get involved with a donation of your time that's many times more valuable to some organizations than money. Buzz' example of the showing of support in MT shows you first hand that you don't have to have deep pockets to make a difference but you do have to invest some time to make them aware that you care. Involvement is key like many have mentioned here. The NRA and Sportsman's Alliance can always use a donation to continue to fight the fight.

The Sportsman's Alliance & the Sheep Foundation along with some other fine organizations fought the anti's in AZ in court and won enabling us to build water catchments in the desert to benefit all wildlife. The anti's didn't want any water catchments built in a wilderness area even in our current drought. Through that victory we managed to do something that will help all species of wildlife in our arid desert for years to come. It took money to wage that fight in court so money is always welcome and on some levels does more than a donation of our time ever could. Not too many of us could fight a court case but we can give them the means to wage our fight for us by a donation.
 
Sorry I didn't respond sooner.My comments were not intended to mean that I am in any way in favor of tag giveaways!Never have thought they were a good idea-mainly because of the polarizing effect they have on sportsmen as a group.My comments only meant this:As a group,hunters are very apathetic.Somewhere along the line,we need solidarity.Somehow.Once a committee member of SFW,I am now not even a member.The original mission was a good one.Somewhere along the way,they got lost and misguided.Lack of transparency is never a good thing when you are in the public eye.I don't know if there will ever be a sportsmen's group that pleases everyone.
 
my answer to the the original question about the boycott would be not yet....but possibly.

I think the people in question should post up some explanation as to what they were thinking. I do not know them but know of them and up to this point have had a lot of respect for them.

My question to the SFW is how could you possibly have done this without considering what us joe average hunters would think??? (the answer would have been fairly obvious)

there is no way...let me repeat that, there is NO WAY you didnt consider us before moving forward in the cover of darkness. If all this turns out to be true it is unforgivable in my mind and I am embarrassed for you.

Some good has come from me reading this entire thread and particularly couesmagnet's posts...I have decided to be a little more involved and put more skin in the game instead of just taking game and talking crap.

Looking forward to some SFW posts in this thread!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-12 AT 08:16PM (MST)[p]Arizona build good post. AZSFW wanted this bill to get more tags for the rich. Some of the guides who came late with their opinions did so in order to get more tags out so they could guide more hunters or get into the Western Hunter. Some board members of AZSFW may not have happy with their two auction tags each year and wanted more. I will be shopping at Cabelas from now on.
 

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