BUNDY'S SON IN OREGON!!! (LOOK!)

Hank,

Then we wonder why the state's movement to take back our land is so strong. The Feds are running rampant over the citizens and not only there but here in Catron County, NM.
 
Another thought is that that Sheriff there is not doing his elected job in protecting his citizens. But then again the Feds probably have threatened to throw him in jail if he doesn't comply with their wishes. That happened here in Catron County when our Sheriff tried to stop the theft of Kit Laney's cattle by the USFS.

This must really be a hard decision on the part of the Hammonds to voluntarily go set in jail another 4 years. What an absolute travesty of justice.
 
I don't agree with the way the Hammonds have been treated.

That being said would someone please explain the difference between this Bundy occupation and what has occurred in Baltimore or Ferguson? Obviously this is a more peaceful protest without looting etc... So far... but isn't it the same? People feeling oppressed and acting out against the government?

The Bundy followers (not the people of Harney county) are looking for some reaction from the feds that will elevate them to martyrdom. They need a Waco or Ruby Ridge. I just hope innocent people are not hurt.


[font color="blue"]I don't make the soup,I just stir it.[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-16 AT 10:33AM (MST)[p]Weren't Hammonds convicted of poaching and then setting a fire to a Wildlife Refuge to hide the evidence?

I haven't found an article with real specifics, but if that's why they got 5-yrs...

Grizzly
 
A couple of you guys posting on this thread obviously have no idea what has happened to be spouting off on this thread. These people have taken over a Government building and should get the appropriate punishment when this is resolved. If they are dumb enough to physically resist, then I have no problem with whatever might happen to them. As far as the OR ranchers going back to prison to serve the remainder of their five years sentences for arson on OUR public lands---GOOD!
 
Grizzly,

Do you have a link to backup the claim that they were convicted of poaching or illegally killing deer? Was the Oregon Game Department involved?

All of the stories I have read seem to make a lot of accusations without much proof.
 
According to US Attorney's Office, District of Oregon...

"Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out ?Strike Anywhere? matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to ?light up the whole country on fire.?

So I guess you could argue semantics and say they weren't convicted of poaching, just arson to hide poaching. But is that really a position a hunter should take?

Grizzly
 
Got a link? All I know is what I'm readin about it today. And what I know is there's generally 2 sides to every story with the truth layin somewhere in the middle.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-16 AT 12:32PM (MST)[p]Stoney as much as I agree with you on a lots of issues and how I distrust our Federal Gov.these days I really don't trust NM gov. to do anything right.
And as a guy who utilizes public Federal lands for hunting and grazing and know the whole picture more than most it is still Federal(US citizens) land. Why would I want to beg one of these local ranchers to hunt it or have to pay what I know they would ask?
And they are lucky they didn't get the full poaching charge.
They just put a bunch of folks lives at risk is all....

These guys are getting a bit less than some OR locals I know think they should still.And not bunny hugger locals.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-16 AT 12:49PM (MST)[p]>Got a link? All I know
>is what I'm readin about
>it today. And what I
>know is there's generally 2
>sides to every story with
>the truth layin somewhere in
>the middle.

http://www.naturalnews.com/052492_Hammond_family_unjust_government_domestic_terrorism.html

Do some research into Mike Adams and then decide if you'd rather use him as your source or twelve jurors whose entire duty as Citizens was to listen to all evidence from both sides and then reach a unanimous decision. And then remember how hard it is to get twelve people to agree on anything.

I'll respect your opinion, regardless of what it is. I just like all the information to be considered and proper weight be given based on the source of that information.

Personally, I weight a jury decision a little stronger than other opinions considering none of us have all the info... however, the jury did.

Grizzly
 
Hank,

I think if you check into this situation a little bit more you might take a whole different stance.

There was absolutely no evidence or charges ever made to support the claim of poaching.

They were railroaded and pressured for many years by the FWS in order to take over their ranch and turn it back into the Refuge's land grab.

NM Government is way more accountable and trustworthy than any Federal Agencies I ever had to deal with.

For some good read Hank go to the Community Forum on Bowsite and read "Slades" links and posts and then come back and tell me how the Hammonds should be locked up.

For God's sake what is this nation coming to. The Hammonds were oppressed and dumped on heavily by the mighty hand of our US Gov't officials. It has been and is an absolute nightmare for this fine family.
 
>Hank,
>
>I think if you check into
>this situation a little bit
>more you might take a
>whole different stance.
>
>There was absolutely no evidence or
>charges ever made to support
>the claim of poaching.
>
>They were railroaded and pressured for
>many years by the FWS
>in order to take over
>their ranch and turn it
>back into the Refuge's land
>grab.
>
>NM Government is way more accountable
>and trustworthy than any Federal
>Agencies I ever had to
>deal with.
>
>For some good read Hank go
>to the Community Forum on
>Bowsite and read "Slades" links
>and posts and then come
>back and tell me how
>the Hammonds should be locked
>up.
>
>For God's sake what is this
>nation coming to. The Hammonds
>were oppressed and dumped on
>heavily by the mighty hand
>of our US Gov't officials.
>It has been and is
>an absolute nightmare for this
>fine family.


I think you're the one that needs to look into things a little deeper than you have and below is a starter:

UGENE, Ore. ? Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr., 73, and his son, Steven Dwight Hammond, 46, both residents of Diamond, Oregon in Harney County, were sentenced to five years in prison by Chief U.S. District Judge Ann Aiken for arsons they committed on federal lands.

A jury sitting in Pendleton, Oregon found the Hammonds guilty of the arsons after a two-week trial in June 2012. The trial involved allegations that the Hammonds, owners of Hammond Ranches, Inc., ignited a series of fires on lands managed by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management (BLM), on which the Hammonds had grazing rights leased to them for their cattle operation.

The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out ?Strike Anywhere? matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to ?light up the whole country on fire.? One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson. The fire consumed 139 acres of public land and destroyed all evidence of the game violations. After committing the arson, Steven Hammond called the BLM office in Burns, Oregon and claimed the fire was started on Hammond property to burn off invasive species and had inadvertently burned onto public lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond told one of their relatives to keep his mouth shut and that nobody needed to know about the fire.

The jury also convicted Steven Hammond of using fire to destroy federal property regarding a 2006 arson known as the Krumbo Butte Fire located in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Steen Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. An August lightning storm started numerous fires and a burn ban was in effect while BLM firefighters fought those fires. Despite the ban, without permission or notification to BLM, Steven Hammond started several ?back fires? in an attempt save the ranch?s winter feed. The fires burned onto public land and were seen by BLM firefighters camped nearby. The firefighters took steps to ensure their safety and reported the arsons.

By law, arson on federal land carries a five-year mandatory minimum sentence. When the Hammonds were originally sentenced, they argued that the five-year mandatory minimum terms were unconstitutional and the trial court agreed and imposed sentences well below what the law required based upon the jury?s verdicts. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, however, upheld the federal law, reasoning that ?given the seriousness of arson, a five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense.? The court vacated the original, unlawful sentences and ordered that the Hammonds be resentenced ?in compliance with the law.? In March 2015, the Supreme Court rejected the Hammonds? petitions for certiorari. Today, Chief Judge Aiken imposed five year prison terms on each of the Hammonds, with credit for time they already served.

?We all know the devastating effects that are caused by wildfires. Fires intentionally and illegally set on public lands, even those in a remote area, threaten property and residents and endanger firefighters called to battle the blaze? stated Acting U.S. Attorney Billy Williams.

?Congress sought to ensure that anyone who maliciously damages United States? property by fire will serve at least 5 years in prison. These sentences are intended to be long enough to deter those like the Hammonds who disregard the law and place fire fighters and others in jeopardy.?

Assistant U.S. Attorneys Frank R Papagni, Jr., AnneMarie Sgarlata and Kelly Zusman handled the prosecution of this case.
 
Grizzly said it, they were convicted by a jury of their peers.

What do you want to do Stoney, throw the whole justice system down the toilet and let militias sort it out? The law best deal with this situation, but my money is not on Obama doing the right thing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-16 AT 04:34PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-16 AT 04:31?PM (MST)

I believe we are a nation of laws as founded and the envy of the world.
I am tired of scofflaws and folks that think laws,taxes,fees don't apply to them. Business men or politicians,tweekers or poachers.
Same with grazing rules,logging,mining,birdwatching....

I think there should be a slow elk season after Nov. since those pesky range cattle are eating all of MY Wildcritters food......oh,that would be TAKING without paying for it.

And I know damn well if I ever tried to pull the type of stuff that the Bundies or the Hammonds do I would be shot or in jail.

Try a rally like that at the Socorro BLM office or Magdelena FS office or any government office in NM and you would have a problem quick. And 90% of the 1st responders would be locals.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-16 AT 05:06PM (MST)[p]

Yer right hank we are a nation of laws, and we have a government, by the people, for the people. But if even half of that link I posted in post 11 is true, we should all be in our trucks halfway to Oregon by now! None of us know the truth or the whole story. None of us were on the jury and heard the whole case and what was or wasn't admissible. Can I see our government agencies chippin away at this family in an effort to prove who's in charge? You bet I can! Can I see a family that's been on a piece a ground 50+ years takein matters into their own hands and breaking some laws along the way to prove otherwise? Absolutely! Do I think they deserve 5 yrs in prison for burnin 130 acres of scrub for whatever was the real reason? Hell no! How many times have the feds let a prescribed burn get away? A bunch! Hell they killed a couple a few years back here doin just that on a hot windy day when we were in a drought! Think anybody went to jail? Anybody lose they're f'n job? No!
There's 2 seperate issues here in my opinion, the Hammonds and the Bundys. Hopefully they're kept seperate.
 
Hey DW?

Them Burns use to be called 'Controlled' Burns!

So many of them got out of Hand they changed the burns Name to 'Prescribed' Burns!

Who does that Benefit?

The Government Officials Striking the Matches,That's Who!






"I'm Living & Dieing with the Choices
I've made!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=N8i5NLyXZdc
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-16 AT 05:44PM (MST)[p]Guess Bundy has lots of free time,newer truck,road clothes,gas and food $ to go up to OR and throw money around since they have some.....and all the time in the world.

That's what happens when you don't have to pay for things like everyone I know.
Most ranchers where I am are working ,most likely round the clock in shifts to keep up right now. On the thaw and breaking ice daily & feeding.
And they pay their grazing fees and follow the rules.

Guess that makes me & them fools & commies.
 
>Ho Replies from dude Huh?
>
>He must be up there?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"I'm Living & Dieing with the
>Choices
>I've made!"
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?
>v=N8i5NLyXZdc
>
>

Quote from Dude: Arson is a crime , and on federal land it carries a 5 year minimum sentence. why are we having this conversation? game over.

why don't they remove the terrorists from the refuge today? it's in the middle of nowhere smoke them out and kill those who fire on law enforcement. at the very least kill the power and let them freeze their azzes off it's been below zero here. maybe they already have it sounded like.


Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
>So?
>
>Is dude a Minuteman?
>
>Or is He on Obama's Side?
>
>
>
>
>
>"I'm Living & Dieing with the
>Choices
>I've made!"
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?
>v=N8i5NLyXZdc
>
>

He's hopein a few federalis get takein out and we can finally ban those evil black guns!
 
Maybe dude can Answer this Question for me?

At the Ilegal ATV Ride there were a couple of the Bundy's show up & Participate!

They were Not Singled Out & Nobody F'D with them!

Can you SPLAIN It dude?






"I'm Living & Dieing with the Choices
I've made!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=N8i5NLyXZdc
 
I've been hearing about this from close ranching friends in Burns for years. let me just say this, the vast majority of the locals have no sympathy for the Hammonds and the cold shoulder the Bundy bunch is testimony to this.

For what it's worth, from locals who will remain unnamed the Hammonds have been setting fires during thunderstorms for years. they finally got careless and got caught.

The Hammonds were tried in Pendleton, by a jury of their peers. Pendleton is almost as much cattle country as Harney county and anyone with 2 brain cells knows they got a fair trial in that venue , which the defense asked for.

The Hammonds want no part of this dog and pony show and for that I commend them. they did the crime and they're willing to do the time. nothing more you can ask of them . now if the carpetbagger loser troublemakers will clear out and slink back to their holes the fine people of Harney county can get back to their peaceful all American lifestyle.


















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
This summer about 300,000 acres burned on mostly Forest Service land here in northern CA. Lightning caused. Lots of good timber went up in flames. Of course there is no logging on FS any more. All the Spotted Owls got flamed, which was funny to me.

Anyway, I spent some time in the town of Ruth during deer season. The locals are livid with the way the FS fought the fires. They were forced to evacuate their ranches and the fire fighters protected their homes and out buildings, but stood around and watched the rest of it go up in smoke. The Forest Service is a joke, and BLM is worse.

If that's what happened, I don't blame Hammonds for starting back fires to protect their land.
 
They were not fighting fire. they wanted a fire. it's good range management to have a fire now and then and some allotment holders want more prescribed burns than they get.

In the end it's public land and they lease the grazing rights. period. if they're not happy with the way it's being managed they are not forced to renew their allotment.

I'm a cattleman and I used to hold a USFS allotment. it cheap cheap cheap pasture but it comes with it's problems. I support grazing public land but I don't support deadbeats like Bundy who don't pay or people like the Hammonds who think it's theirs to do with as they please. there are rules and there are laws, follow them bring 'em home.












Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
No it won't end in bloodshed unfortunetly. these out of state wimps are just here to look tough and get on tv .


Turn the power off and block the roads. they'll winterkill .











Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
>No it won't end in bloodshed
>unfortunetly. these out of
>state wimps are just
>here to look tough and
>get on tv .
>
>
>Turn the power off and block
>the roads. they'll winterkill
>.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Stay Thirsty My Friends

So?

You're gonna Kill them by Starvation/Hypothermia?

And by not letting them Drive their F-350's to town?








"I'm Living & Dieing with the Choices
I've made!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=N8i5NLyXZdc
 
Depending on what laws they break here they will be F'D with. and they'll be helpless.

If you wanted the perfect place to trap someone with no chance whatsoever of innocent bystanders being hurt this is it. it's like taking refuge from a forest fire in a treehouse. they are totally at the feds mercy.





















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
I have read articles that had both versions of this.

What put me against them is Bundy involvement, and the fact that they had a jury trial and were convicted.

We got our man on the ground 440 and I am betting his perspective is right on.

Bad trend. Fat overfed blow hards threatening the government. It is bad enough we get that from the ghetto rats.
 
Think I'll Change My Name!

How does bobcatbundy sound?

I'll do as I Please & when I Please!

With Bundy as my New Last Name nobody will F'K with me!

The Militia should Run to Me when needed!






"I'm Living & Dieing with the Choices
I've made!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=N8i5NLyXZdc
 
It looks like Hammond has been convicted of harassing hunters on public land. It appears they felt the public land should be closed to hunting because the wildlife "temporarily wandered" onto it from the private Hammond ranch.

I'm not sure these guys are the ones hunters should be siding with....

"And in 1999, Steve Hammond confronted hunters on land bureau property near his ranch. The hunters said the next day "he fired several shots from his firearm that the hunting party heard about, but he said he was shooting at rabbits," Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Papagni Jr. said in court recently. Hammond was convicted later of interfering with use of public land.

An attorney for Steve Hammond said in a court filing that his actions "arose out of his belief that there was something wrong with a system that authorized commercial hunting of wildlife that temporarily wandered onto barren public land from private land lush with forage."

SOURCE: http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2015/12/ranchers_fight_with_feds_spark.html

Grizzly
 
>I have read articles that had
>both versions of this.
>
>What put me against them is
>Bundy involvement, and the fact
>that they had a jury
>trial and were convicted.
>
>We got our man on the
>ground 440 and I am
>betting his perspective is right
>on.
>
>Bad trend. Fat overfed blow
>hards threatening the government.
>It is bad enough we
>get that from the ghetto
>rats.
This says it all!
 
Your article makes them seem like well respected members of their community. Was this part of the arson charge for burning 130 acres?
 
Check this out dude:

Look at the Type of Gun!

This is one of the Militiamen!

8201hammondsmilitia.jpg





"I'm Living & Dieing with the Choices
I've made!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=N8i5NLyXZdc
 
>It looks like Hammond has been
>convicted of harassing hunters on
>public land. It appears they
>felt the public land should
>be closed to hunting because
>the wildlife "temporarily wandered" onto
>it from the private Hammond
>ranch.
>
>I'm not sure these guys are
>the ones hunters should be
>siding with....
>
>"And in 1999, Steve Hammond confronted
>hunters on land bureau property
>near his ranch. The hunters
>said the next day "he
>fired several shots from his
>firearm that the hunting party
>heard about, but he said
>he was shooting at rabbits,"
>Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Papagni
>Jr. said in court recently.
>Hammond was convicted later of
>interfering with use of public
>land.
>
>An attorney for Steve Hammond said
>in a court filing that
>his actions "arose out of
>his belief that there was
>something wrong with a system
>that authorized commercial hunting of
>wildlife that temporarily wandered onto
>barren public land from private
>land lush with forage."
>
>SOURCE: http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2015/12/ranchers_fight_with_feds_spark.html
>
>Grizzly

from that link,

The men served their time and went home to raise cattle. But their case, it turned out, was far from settled.

Amanda Marshall, then U.S. attorney for Oregon, said she recommended the government challenge Hogan's sentence as illegal.

"If the government stands by and doesn't pursue the statutorily mandated sentence in this case, what kind of precedent does that set?" Marshall asked. Hogan, she said, imposed "an unlawful sentence."

Papagni, the federal prosecutor, said in court last fall that "the government did what we are supposed to do when someone doesn't follow the law, be it a judge or be it two ranchers in eastern Oregon."

The solicitor general at the U.S. Justice Department authorized a rare appeal of an Oregon judge's order.

The appeals court sided with the prosecution, and the Hammonds trooped to federal court last October to face a second sentencing.

Family and supporters filled the Eugene courtroom and U.S. Chief District Judge Ann Aiken gave the two convicted ranchers a chance to speak.

"I have nothing to say," Steve Hammond said.

"I have got nothing to say," Dwight Hammond said.

"Really?" the judge asked. "That's so unusual."

She sentenced them to prison to finish five-year terms but left them free until after the holidays.
-----------------------------------------

If you google Amanda Marshall, you find she's a loon in her own right.

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-24261-fatal_attraction_fallout.html

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2015/04/oregon_us_attorney_amanda_mars.html
 
Eel, who cares about the attorney? She has absolutely no bearing in this case. Prosecutors don't convict. Juries do. And judges impose sentences and provide a fair trial (in a venue chosen by the Hammond's). I haven't seen anybody claim the trial was unfair in any way, the jury conviction has not been nullified, so the sentence is all that remains.

The judge ordered a sentence that was significantly shorter than the 5-yr minimum mandated by Federal Law in a Congress-passed statute intended to dissuade arson of public property. This is a law that that was written to save hundreds of millions of dollars in wildfire costs, burned structures and homes, and possibly save the lives of wildland firefighters that would be called to fight potentially lethal fires every year. The TeaParty folks love to talk about the money wasted fighting wildfires, this law only helps that.

The jury heard all the testimony, including that of actual Hammond family/friends who were present, and ultimately chose to convict. This decision was unanimous by the 12 people that heard all the evidence. Consider for a second how hard it is to get 12 people to unanimously agree on anything... but they agreed on this.

Bottom line: If you willfully ignite wildfires on public land... the law requires a minimum 5-yr sentence. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Do you want an anarchist society where a single judge can override/ignore Federal law put in place by our elected officials? Neither do I. The Ninth Circuit upheld the 5-yr conviction and the Supreme Court refused to overturn it as well. There's really nothing to debate here unless you want to petition your elected officials to change the law.

And to their credit... the Hammond family appears to have distanced itself from the gunmen and it looks like they will show up for their sentence in the morning. Personally, I think it's a stiff sentence and I can understand their dismay at spending 5 years behind bars over 140 acres, but unless the law is changed or a Pardon is granted... the sentence will stand.

My point is that these folks aren't the guys that the hunting community should stand behind. Somebody with a conviction for harassing hunters, and a separate felony conviction for arson in an attempt to hide poaching, probably is not our biggest ally.

With all of that said, I truly do feel sorry for the Hammond family. I'm sure tonight is one of the hardest nights in that family's life. And I honestly don't wish it on them. I hope nobody has to lay down to sleep next to their wife and realize it will be 5 years before it happens again. I wish the family good luck in the coming months.

Grizzly
 
> Like the parasites they
>are they just move in
>and take over as if
>they owned it.
> even if you want
>to spend a night in
>a lookout tower in the
>off season you have to
>pay . charge these losers,
>they couldn't pool enough money
>between them to pay for
>one day if it was
>$500 a week.
>
>Portland news.
>
>http://koin.com/2016/01/03/fbi-to-deal-with-militia-group-at-malheur-refuge/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Stay Thirsty My Friends

Hey dude?

You Don't know the Bundy's very Well do you?

Charge them whatever you want!

They Ain't F'N Paying!






"I'm Living & Dieing with the Choices
I've made!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=N8i5NLyXZdc
 
That's the problem with parasites . but what little they do have you can take in court. that's how the pivot man of this circle jerk is going to go out.

They've closed all the schools in the county for the entire week due to safety concerns. seems a little drastic, but considering the type of people these are half are probably child molesters.

This will only make them more welcome by the community.









Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
Remember when I mentioned the 3 Fly-overs over Iraq dude?

You Damn near wet yourself every time I mentioned it!

But Immediately on this little Deal You're Flyin the Apache's In!

I'll admit,You'd have to be a Damn Idiot to do what they're doing!

But at least a few still have enough Guts & No Brains to Stand up against Our Government!

Who knows!

Your Buddy might see this & He just might straighten the whole World out Immediately!

You're always tellin us How Quick Our Government could kick the Whole Worlds Ass all at the same time,shouldn't take em too long to fix this hand full of Hillbillies,Right?











"I'm Living & Dieing with the Choices
I've made!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=N8i5NLyXZdc
 
Google the letter from the superior court judge in Alaska (Anna Vz?) to sheriff Ward. It might open some eyes as to the process. Damn, I can't remember her last name. It's Geman.
 
>Google the letter from the superior
>court judge in Alaska (Anna
>Vz?) to sheriff Ward. It
>might open some eyes as
>to the process. Damn, I
>can't remember her last name.
>It's Geman.

I hope you don't believe what you read about Anna Maria Riezinger (Anna von Reitz). Do some fact-checking.
 
Quote: Diane Koenig

This particular land is rich in natural gas, Uranium and several other rich resources. This has nothing to do with what the Hammonds did. It has everything to do with Agenda 21 and the BLM(GOV) trying to buy up all the land in that area. The Hammonds did not want to sell out. The day before this protest took place Obama ordered their ranch to be destroyed. He was the one who escalated this situation and ordered Media not to cover it until a stand off situation occurs and then he send all the media in for gun grab agenda and another RUBY RIDGE OR WACO for all we know. I was there yesterday and saw an old man and his wife who have just been given a death sentence for nothing but back burning their land which everyone does in that area. 2 other people are also facing this same thing in other separate cases. Most farmers sold out, the rest could be killed for all the BLM and OBAMA care.
 
Manny, WTF ? you're getting worse.

This land is rich in rocks and cheat grass. period.


















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
I think Manny wears a tin foil hat with a cross on it now when
he reads the bible...his version of curse.

I have seen case loads & articles about these jackwads going back to the 80's and stopped ......my head hurts.

They are the same strain as Bundies from what I can see ,minus the million dollar unpaid bill due the US(or us if you prefer).

So far....but how much is it going to cost us to put them in jail where they belong now.
Or is it domestic terrorism as I believe it is and they will be dealt with accordingly.

The land is not theirs outside of whatever is on recorded deed.
It has been a Refuge from what I can see going back to 1908.
When Teddy got involved. Homestead act days and such.
The time when NF was becoming National Reserve or BLM was still being dealt with by just the Dept of Interior. And the cavalry had just begun to leave the Gila area after the Apache Wars.
This kind of," I have more than my 160 or 640 acres than my deed says", 'cuz I heard it way back from Gran Pappy.....
 
These people are losers and they just need someone to blame. for them the government is their scapegoat of choice.

They don't think there should be any public land, but if there must be then everyone should be able to do with it as they wish. they're too stupid to see how that would work because they assume they'd be the one doing with it as they wish. not someone with more guns than they have.

This is just a manufactured problem by people with nothing to say looking for attention. and they're sure as hell getting that. the only good part of all their publicity is their failure will be covered as well .


















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
>
>
>
>These people are losers and they
>just need someone to blame.
> for them the government
>is their scapegoat of choice.
>
>
>They don't think there should be
>any public land, but if
>there must be then everyone
>should be able to do
>with it as they wish.
> they're too stupid
>to see how that would
>work because they assume they'd
>be the one doing with
>it as they wish. not
>someone with more guns than
>they have.
>
>This is just a manufactured problem
>by people with nothing to
>say looking for attention. and
>they're sure as hell getting
>that. the only good part
>of all their publicity is
>their failure will be covered
>as well .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Stay Thirsty My Friends


hey i just provide the spoon you stir...

The Hammond Ranch Is Sitting On Natural Gas And Uranium that China Wants..Like The Bundys Ranch Was.....

Posted By: Watchman
Date: Sunday, 3-Jan-2016 19:43:30

Why the Hammonds?

?The story is like an onion, you just keep peeling back the layers,? Maupin said.

In an effort to stave off what they feared was a pending Clinton/Babbitt monument designation in 2000, a group of ranchers on the scenic Steens Mountain worked with Oregon Representative Greg Walden, a Republican, to draft and enact the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Act that would prevent such a deed. The ranchers agreed to work with special interest ?environmental? groups like the aggressive Oregon Natural Desert Association and others to protect the higher-than 10,000-foot peak.

A number of ranchers at the top of the mountain traded their BLM permits and private property for land on the valley floor, allowing Congress to create a 170,000 acre wilderness in 2000, with almost 100,000 acres being ?cow-free.?

?The last holdouts on that cow-free wilderness are the Hammonds,? said Maupin. Though some still have BLM grazing permits, the Hammonds are the last private landowners in the area.

?It's become more and more obvious over the years that the BLM and the wildlife refuge want that ranch. It would tie in with what they have,? said Rusty Inglis, an area rancher and retired U.S. Forest Service employee.

Rusty Inglis, the local area rancher and retired U.S. Forest Service employee who is mentioned in the article, made the comment, ?It would tie in with what they have,? referring to the Hammond Ranch.

That begs the question, what exactly is it that they (the feds) have?

The answer to that question comes from another source, who sent me the video below. Aside from the video?s title, ?EMERGENCY ? Obama Ordered Hammond Ranch Destroyed,? there are several other things that are very troubling, the first of which is the date.

The video was uploaded one day before the scheduled protest , which was the same day the militia took over the federal refuge, or January 1st.

Why would Obama order the ranch destroyed before any of the last 24?s events took place?

From what YouTuber William Mount says, there is MUCH more to this story, and in typical Obama fashion, it's all absolutely FILTHY? every damn bit of it.

Mount says that ?what the feds have? with the rest of the land surrounding the Hammond Ranch, is well documented in U.S. Geological Survey Bulletin 1740-B. Download it now before it gets taken down.

It turns out that the land the feds own, and the land in question at the Hammond Ranch have enormous amounts of Natural Gas, Uranium, Mercury, and Arsenic.

If you follow me regularly, you know I cover the economy and the looming financial implosion of the U.S. Dollar very closely, and I've been saying for some time that the Dollar collapse is imminent.

William Mount reports that the Treasury Department is well aware of the pending crash and has plans to issue a new Dollar later in 2016, that will be backed by natural gas and oil, and the Hammond Ranch is the only thing holding up the extraction of the resources owned by the feds.

Furthermore, Mount says in an effort to appease our largest creditor, Obama has already cut a deal with the Chinese to take the Uranium for their nuclear program.

At this point, if you're like me, you're thinking that all sounds nice, a bit far fetched perhaps, despite the supporting U.S. Geological Survey, but not impossible right? BUT, how exactly is all that mining going to get done, who's going to do it, and how is the Uranium allegedly going to get to China?

Mount suggests none other than Democrat Congressmen DeFazio. He suggests ?following the money.? When you do that, OpenSecrets.org shows that the bulk of Congressmen DeFazio?s campaign money all came from the following industries: air transit, transportation unions, building materials and equipment, railroads, and industrial unions.

Going even further, his top five individual donors were: Air Line Pilots Association Communications Workers of America, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Unite Here, and Berkshire Hathaway.

Uh? Ok. I suppose THAT is how the the mining will get done, and the Uranium shipped to China. Wow.

Mount says Obama?s feds have been harassing the Hammond Ranch very aggressively for a long time in an effort to get at the natural gas and Uranium resources the land holds, but to no avail.

Now, the feds have simplified their plan: Toss the Hammond?s in prison for a grossly excessive sentence, and see to it that they meet unfortunate and untimely deaths while there. Remember, per the article, ?In the Hammonds? plea agreement in the 2012 trial, the BLM obtained the first right of refusal should the family have to sell their private land,? or if they should happen to come to an early dirt nap ?retirement? so to speak.

Property rights attorney Karen Budd-Falen from Cheyenne, Wyoming, brings up a fascinating point as it relates to the prison sentence. She says, ?What totally amazes me is what these guys did ? they burned 140 acres. If you compare that to the EPA spill in Colorado, it amazes me that NOTHING will happen to those EPA employees.?

With respect to the EPA folks, she goes on, ?You have cities down there [in Colorado] with no drinking water.

The Hammonds didn't do anything like that,? and with the well documented deposits they are sitting on, there sentence is all just a coincidence? Please! There are never coincidences with Obama. There are only schemes.

full article: http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2...a-orders-hammond-ranch-destroyed-2767990.html
 
here's the proof... look at the 1 min and 43 sec in the video for the paperwork since your so lazy as to do your own research...


 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-16 AT 09:52AM (MST)[p]
Manny you couldn't fit that much bullchit in a spreader. doesn't it strike you as odd the only recourses like this in Harney county are under the Hammonds property? and they don't even know about it?

I don't expect much from you but com'on. even the Bundy's know it's bullchit that's why they aren't using it.

This is just what it seems. arsonist going to jail and unwanted losers like you taking over a federal facility for no reason whatsoever.

















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
Until you have walked in the shoes of these great Americans, the Hammonds, the Bundys, the Laneys, the Martinez's, the Lee's and on and on, to see how big Government oppression, whether it be by misuse of the Endangered Species Act, liberal judges, sheer force or whatever, you shouldn't be so quick to judge these patriots.

Government oppression caused many of these individuals to do desperate things and now we have a bunch of slaves rolling over and hollering for more big government action, and absolute bad mouthing of the affected individuals.

Do you realize what the Desert Tortoise, the Spotted Owl and the Mexican Gray Wolves have in common? The Government has and is ruining many lives and destroying local economies, by using these not so endangered species to achieve their goals and in the case of the Hammonds and the many other ranchers put out of business in this National Wildlife Refuge, the situation there has come to a boiling point.

It is reported that the judge in the Hammond Trial let the Government testify for six days and only allowed the defense one day not allowing them to testify on many issues that affected their case.

I'm here to tell you boys and girls, the Government lies.

Go to YouTube and view "BLM Destroying Ranches by Fire 002" and then tell me where was the Sheriff elected to protect these citizens. The Hammonds were retaliated against big time.

Its funny how the Sheriffs in so many of these cases i.e. Catron County NM and Greenlee County AZ were threatened with Federal Prison time if they didn't follow along with the overreaching Feds.

We down here in the trenches view this a lot differently than many of you do. That is because we have friends and neighbors whom have and are suffering the same fate.

I have a sticker on my F-250 that says "Wolves, Government Sponsored Terrorists". This is exactly what is happening here. The Government lies to us and bullies us.

Come on hunters wake up.
 
>Until you have walked in the
>shoes of these great Americans,
>the Hammonds, the Bundys, the
>Laneys, the Martinez's, the Lee's
>and on and on, to
>see how big Government oppression,
>whether it be by misuse
>of the Endangered Species Act,
>liberal judges, sheer force or
>whatever, you shouldn't be so
>quick to judge these patriots.
>
>
>Government oppression caused many of these
>individuals to do desperate things
>and now we have a
>bunch of slaves rolling over
>and hollering for more big
>government action, and absolute bad
>mouthing of the affected individuals.
>
>
>Do you realize what the Desert
>Tortoise, the Spotted Owl and
>the Mexican Gray Wolves have
>in common? The Government
>has and is ruining many
>lives and destroying local economies,
>by using these not so
>endangered species to achieve their
>goals and in the case
>of the Hammonds and the
>many other ranchers put out
>of business in this National
>Wildlife Refuge, the situation there
>has come to a boiling
>point.
>
>It is reported that the judge
>in the Hammond Trial let
>the Government testify for six
>days and only allowed the
>defense one day not allowing
>them to testify on many
>issues that affected their case.
>
>
>I'm here to tell you boys
>and girls, the Government lies.
>
>
>Go to YouTube and view "BLM
>Destroying Ranches by Fire 002"
>and then tell me where
>was the Sheriff elected to
>protect these citizens. The Hammonds
>were retaliated against big time.
>
>
>Its funny how the Sheriffs in
>so many of these cases
>i.e. Catron County NM and
>Greenlee County AZ were threatened
>with Federal Prison time if
>they didn't follow along with
>the overreaching Feds.
>
>We down here in the trenches
>view this a lot differently
>than many of you do.
>That is because we have
>friends and neighbors whom have
>and are suffering the same
>fate.
>
>I have a sticker on my
>F-250 that says "Wolves, Government
>Sponsored Terrorists". This is exactly
>what is happening here. The
>Government lies to us and
>bullies us.
>
>Come on hunters wake up.


because animal activist have infiltrated our government even judges are activists n those who are on the government tit are not qualified to be making statements
 
I'd say you clowns need to double up on the tin foil so they can't read your brain waves. but you don't have enough to read.


You're not going to take this nation by force because too many of us will be shooting at you not with you. so why don't you just leave it if you think it's as bad as you say. nobody will miss you.


















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
Tog,

How pathetic you are! It's people like you who elect the likes of Obama, Pelosi, Reid and on and on. No wonder the country is in the shape it is.

I don't think any of us here on MM are calling for armed insurection. What we are calling for is honesty in our government and elected officials. We would like a true accounting of what has and is happening. Not Government double speak.

Tin Foil, huh? You don't have a clue buddy!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-16 AT 11:38AM (MST)[p]
>Until you have walked in the
>shoes of these great Americans,
>the Hammonds, the Bundys, the
>Laneys, the Martinez's, the Lee's
>and on and on, to
>see how big Government oppression,
>whether it be by misuse
>of the Endangered Species Act,
>liberal judges, sheer force or
>whatever, you shouldn't be so
>quick to judge these patriots.

If this is the best example you got of "great Americans" then you truly don't believe in what actually makes America great.

>Government oppression caused many of these
>individuals to do desperate things
>and now we have a
>bunch of slaves rolling over
>and hollering for more big
>government action, and absolute bad
>mouthing of the affected individuals.

So Government Oppression forced the Bundy's to be welfare queens and not pay their below market grazing fees for a permit they abused? Why don't the laws apply to the Bundy's?


>Do you realize what the Desert
>Tortoise, the Spotted Owl and
>the Mexican Gray Wolves have
>in common? The Government
>has and is ruining many
>lives and destroying local economies,
>by using these not so
>endangered species to achieve their
>goals and in the case
>of the Hammonds and the
>many other ranchers put out
>of business in this National
>Wildlife Refuge, the situation there
>has come to a boiling
>point.

Show me the science that says this is true. If you are going to claim these are not endangered species show me the science to combat the other side?


>It is reported that the judge
>in the Hammond Trial let
>the Government testify for six
>days and only allowed the
>defense one day not allowing
>them to testify on many
>issues that affected their case.

Are you sure that is accurate? The judge doesn't set the amount of time either side presents. They go until either sides Rests. The Hammond's defense attorneys rested their case after one day. I suspect since you support fake judges and don't bother with reading the Constitution that you believe a judge just ends testimony, you are are wrong as Manny on that.

>I'm here to tell you boys
>and girls, the Government lies.

So do your heroes, the Bundy's.

>Go to YouTube and view "BLM
>Destroying Ranches by Fire 002"
>and then tell me where
>was the Sheriff elected to
>protect these citizens. The Hammonds
>were retaliated against big time.

Go read the actual transcripts of the trial and it makes that Youtube. video look like propaganda work

>Its funny how the Sheriffs in
>so many of these cases
>i.e. Catron County NM and
>Greenlee County AZ were threatened
>with Federal Prison time if
>they didn't follow along with
>the overreaching Feds.



>We down here in the trenches
>view this a lot differently
>than many of you do.
>That is because we have
>friends and neighbors whom have
>and are suffering the same
>fate.

>I have a sticker on my
>F-250 that says "Wolves, Government
>Sponsored Terrorists". This is exactly
>what is happening here. The
>Government lies to us and
>bullies us.

Really Wolves are "Government Sponsored Terrorist"?


>Come on hunters wake up.

Why would any hunter want to support people who over graze public land and don't pay for it or people who admit they torched public lands because they could?

Your post shows the level of nut jobs out there who pretend they are big tough but take away their government cheese and they whine like little girls.

Nemont
 
Newmont,

Tell that to the 30 families that lost their livelihoods and had to leave Reserve, NM because of the supposed, trumped up, so called endangered species, Mexican Spotted Owl. Thousands more families displaced west wide. Devastated communities.

Tell that to the several ranchers here whom the supposed endangered Mexican Gray Wolf basically put out of business.

Tell me how good the Endangered Species Act really is. Tell me that the radical environmental groups that want the consumptives users off the land, haven't hijacked the ESA to accompolish their goals.

Tell that to the Laney family whereby Gov't overreach caused one of the family members to go off the deep end and kill his children and his wife and then take his own life.

Like I said if you haven't been down here in the trenches and are seeing this first hand you have no business criticizing the people who are suffering from the heavy hand of the Gov't.

There is no denying the facts.

You Newmont however are in a state of denial.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-16 AT 01:13PM (MST)[p]just watch the video...if you don't like chatter then pick it up at the 3 min mark...n see for yourself...



 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-16 AT 01:17PM (MST)[p]

>Newmont,
>
>Tell that to the 30 families
>that lost their livelihoods and
>had to leave Reserve, NM
>because of the supposed, trumped
>up, so called endangered species,
>Mexican Spotted Owl. Thousands more
>families displaced west wide. Devastated
>communities.

Thousands of families? You are an idiot that can't stick to basic facts. What communities are decimated?
People go out of business every day of the year in America.


>Tell that to the several ranchers
>here whom the supposed endangered
>Mexican Gray Wolf basically put
>out of business.

If ranchers cannot make due to wolves then they are no much good at running cows.

>Tell me how good the Endangered
>Species Act really is. Tell
>me that the radical environmental
>groups that want the consumptives
>users off the land, haven't
>hijacked the ESA to accompolish
>their goals.

What party put the ESA into law?

>Tell that to the Laney family
>whereby Gov't overreach caused one
>of the family members to
>go off the deep end
>and kill his children and
>his wife and then take
>his own life.

So now government is responsible for mental illness?

>Like I said if you haven't
>been down here in the
>trenches and are seeing this
>first hand you have no
>business criticizing the people who
>are suffering from the heavy
>hand of the Gov't.

He is where you show how stupid you really are. Do a little research about what has been shoved down the throat of people in North East Montana. Try on the upper Mo. Breaks National Monument. Yet nobody came to anyone's aid with guns drawn.

>There is no denying the facts.
>
>
>You Newmont however are in a
>state of denial.

You are a whack job. You don't truly love America based on who you think is heroic and how anxious you are to spill other people's blood.

Nemont
 
Quote;You are in a state of utter stupidity and a whack job on top of of it. You don't truly love America based on who you think is heroic and how anxious you are to spill other people's blood.

Nemont

there you go again proclaiming how righteous n more patriotic you are, you only love this country as long as it maintains your liberal agendas..puke
 
I know some of these great Americans also. LOL. The rancher in Nevada who sued the forest service because Elk drank water out of a ditch on public land, because he had adjudicated water rights, I know them in other ways,
Stoney you are a funny person, you honestly believe that stuff I know.
That's what happens to people who cannot look out side a tiny circle.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-16 AT 01:26PM (MST)[p]
>That's what happens to people who
>cannot look out side a
>tiny circle.


Most hypocritical quote in mm history. Book it!
 
Manny,

Find where I made a claim about myself in the above sentence. I still don't understand what makes born agains unable to read and comprehend the english language when it is written.

I never said anything other then he is a whack job, just like you are. You think Bundy is a great American and you believe a fake judge has legal standing.

Nemont
 
I come from a ranching family.

Ranching is a business like any other. Some succeed some fail.

There is not God given right to succeed or have the same rules that existed 100 years ago.

I did not always feel this way. My opinion has changed over the last 30 years as I see lazy slob ranchers blaming everyone else for their lack of integrity and work ethic.

Like I said I have not always felt this way. I was raised to think ranchers did no wrong. Life experience has shown me other wise.

Please do not take this as my opinion of all ranchers. Many are good hard working people that earn what they get. Unfortunately, many are not like that. Handing someone 10 million dollars worth of land to make a living on, is not always a good thing. Most of us, appreciate something more if we earn it.

There is no question that there is over reach by the government. Stoney is right about the Wolves and owls. Though, I cannot agree to blame the government for a guy killing his family.
 
Newmont,

Your try to turn around what has happened to many fine folks that have been and are being trampled on by this oppression but yet you don't know what really took place and is taking place. Your comments in regard to the Laney family only show your total ignorance and lack of knowledge of what really happened there.

I'm not is support of Ammon Bundy and his groups tactics. I am not wanting to see bloodshed. For you to make those assumptions are entirely ridiculous and derogatory.

Further more I don't live in a tiny circle as you seem to assume, but darn sure have walked the walk and talked the talk nation wide. You are the one whom appears to be lost somewhere, God only knows?

In my business I deal with all walks of life from all parts of the country and you my friend are presenting yourself as a dupe to your own destiny which appears to be no where.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-16 AT 02:20PM (MST)[p]

I grew up ranching, live in an area where Ag. is king. Married into a ranching family that has been on the land since 1894. I have walked the walk before you got your alligator skin boots on. That ranch has and continues to have a grazing permit on on about 15,000 acres of BLM and Indian lands. None of what you say is accurate.

Is there over reach, absolutely, is it because often idiots like Cliven Bundy believe they should get land without paying for it. Why should everyone else in the Cattle business have to risk capital and pay their bills but Cliven Bundy? Why are Bundy's so dependent on a welfare handout rather then rolling up their sleeves and working? They are not great Americans they are welfare queens.

My circle is plenty big and you are a whack job, you should hunt with Manny as you both appear to be cut from the same whack job clothes.

In my business I deal with all kind of people too and you come from the same group who complain about everyone else except the people who create their own problems. My destiny is still bright, yours appears to be that you are going to die of bleeding ulcer worrying about government thugs storming your home. In my world pessimist always end up where they belong: last place.

Show me proof that thousands of families have had their lives wrecked, either put up or shut up. Or that some crazed ne'er do well kills his family because the government drove him to do it. If that is the case the guy was just waiting for something to light the fuse.

I know your type they are all over around here and all still butt hurt that they have to abide by laws that weren't in place 40 years ago.

The real ranchers have been making bank for the past couple of years. Markets have softened up now but if Cliven Bundy had a brain he wouldn't need to be a welfare queen.

I am from Missouri I guess: Show me proof, not some extremist website but something approaching proof. I can show you where you are a liar about the Government presenting for 6 days and judge not allowing any defense testimony. The trial transcripts are available. So unless you got proof, not just you heard from some other whack job a half truth about hearsay.

If what you claim is even close to accurate you should be able to provide a credible source with all the resources out there on the the interweb.

Nemont
 
Manny you make my head hurt. I can't for the life of me read anymore of your posts. Just skipping right past them from now on....too painful.

Nemont second paragraph is spot on. Blame the federal government but let people like the Bundy's and Hammonds get a pass. Some think the feds are pushing hunters off the land, just wait and see what ranchers like the Bundy's and Hammonds do once they have full control. Most ranchers don't allow hunting now unless you're family or pay a huge few. Careful what you wish for people.
 
Wonder if they would accept clemency from a foreign born Muslim who God selected as our leader?


Hammonds To Ask Obama For Clemency

by AP AP | Jan. 4, 2016 12:11 p.m.
An attorney for two Oregon ranchers whose impending prison sentences led an armed group to take over a national wildlife refuge says they will seek clemency from the president.

Kendra M. Matthews, a lawyer for Dwight and Steven Hammond, said Monday that the father and son will ask President Barack Obama to pardon them. They were convicted of arson for setting fires on federal land in 2001 and 2006 and served some prison time.

A judge said in October that their terms were too short and ordered them back to prison. Matthews reiterated that the Hammonds intend to surrender Monday to begin serving their terms.

Their sentences have been a rallying cry for the group who say they ultimately want to turn over the refuge land to local authorities so people can use it free of U.S. oversight.


http://www.opb.org/news/series/burn...updates/burns-oregon-hammonds-obama-clemency/
 
NMPaul,

Many public lands ranches have been in existence long before the US Forest Service or BLM ever came into being. The public land was broken up and divided, fenced and went into government management, starting in about 1905. Fencing started in the 1930's and the present grazing allotments came into being. The gov't didn't give these ranchers 10 million dollars worth of real estate. That is a crap statement. They hold these grazing rights or privileges along with many other multiple users of this public land, wood cutters, hunters, loggers, mining, gas and oil and etc. Over the last almost 140 years these public lands ranchers have developed a tremendous amount of water on the public range which has in turn enabled our deer and elk herds to flourish.

Like you say there are some bad managers out there but the majority are good stewards of the land as the bad managers soon go out of business.

In the case of the Laney deaths, with all that went on in the USFS taking away the Diamond Bar Allotment from the Laneys (long story) and them being put off the land it turned their lives upside down. The one brother murdered his family and then himself, the other brother went to jail and has made one big mess with all of the families involved. This could have been averted by US Government but they reneged on their promises and then put the screws to them. The Laneys had some bad advise from some lawyer types and made mistakes but never the less, the gov't put them out of business with due help from the Biological Diversity Center folks whom want all grazing stopped not only on the Gila but on all public lands. Those people are our mortal enemy including all hunters. The US Gov't makes backroom deals with them daily, because many in the Federal Agencies are sympathizers or members of the radical environmental groups. Many liberal higher court judges are responsible for backing up the Federal Agencies and their radical environmental friends.

This whole fight is not about the wolf or the owl or the tortoise, it is about whom controls the public land. Us consumptive users on the public land are slowly but surely losing the fight.

Whether you like the Bundys or the Hammonds or the Laneys or the Martinez brothers or many other ranchers whom have a long history of ranching on the public land or not, you need to realize what has actually happened and look at the big picture and not quibble over whether some one burned 129 acres of land or what ever trumped up, perceived or real actions took place. This is a much bigger issue.
 
>NMPaul,
>
>Many public lands ranches have been
>in existence long before the
>US Forest Service or BLM
>ever came into being. The
>public land was broken up
>and divided, fenced and went
>into government management, starting in
>about 1905. Fencing started in
>the 1930's and the present
>grazing allotments came into being.
>The gov't didn't give these
>ranchers 10 million dollars worth
>of real estate. That is
>a crap statement. They hold
>these grazing rights or privileges
>along with many other multiple
>users of this public land,
>wood cutters, hunters, loggers, mining,
>gas and oil and etc.
>Over the last almost 140
>years these public lands ranchers
>have developed a tremendous amount
>of water on the public
>range which has in turn
>enabled our deer and elk
>herds to flourish.
>
>Like you say there are some
>bad managers out there but
>the majority are good stewards
>of the land as the
>bad managers soon go out
>of business.
>
>In the case of the Laney
>deaths, with all that went
>on in the USFS taking
>away the Diamond Bar Allotment
>from the Laneys (long story)
>and them being put off
>the land it turned their
>lives upside down. The one
>brother murdered his family and
>then himself, the other brother
>went to jail and has
>made one big mess with
>all of the families involved.
>This could have been averted
>by US Government but they
>reneged on their promises and
>then put the screws to
>them. The Laneys had some
>bad advise from some lawyer
>types and made mistakes but
>never the less, the gov't
>put them out of business
>with due help from the
>Biological Diversity Center folks whom
>want all grazing stopped not
>only on the Gila but
>on all public lands. Those
>people are our mortal enemy
>including all hunters. The US
>Gov't makes backroom deals with
>them daily, because many in
>the Federal Agencies are sympathizers
>or members of the radical
>environmental groups. Many liberal higher
>court judges are responsible for
>backing up the Federal Agencies
>and their radical environmental friends.
>
>
>This whole fight is not about
>the wolf or the owl
>or the tortoise, it is
>about whom controls the public
>land. Us consumptive users on
>the public land are slowly
>but surely losing the fight.
>
>
>Whether you like the Bundys or
>the Hammonds or the Laneys
>or the Martinez brothers or
>many other ranchers whom have
>a long history of ranching
>on the public land or
>not, you need to realize
>what has actually happened and
>look at the big picture
>and not quibble over whether
>some one burned 129 acres
>of land or what ever
>trumped up, perceived or real
>actions took place. This is
>a much bigger issue.


Stoney,
When I said handed 10 million dollars worth of land to make a living off of, I was not being specific. I was using a broad brush. That is the case in many instances where a family passes it down, and the kid mis manages it.

I paid for a subscription of Range magazine for years. So I have read about the Laneys, and many of the other issues in the west.
I do know there is some truth to it, and I also know in some (not all) there is embellishment and a dose of bull shyt.

People, whose lives get turned upside down do not always kill their families, and those that kill their families it is not always a result of their lives being ruined.

EVERY business has its peaks and valleys and highs and lows. Being self employed is a roller coaster ride. I know. I have been for 20 years.

It just seems, that ranchers tend to have a pre conceived notion that when things change it aint fair.
There are only two kinds of fair. State fairs and county fairs.

These are people we were told pulled themselves up from their boot straps. Seems way to many of them just cry and whine.

Listen, I dont hate ranchers, I just have seen a little more than when I was a kid.
I can now watch a Manny video and read the BS between the lines. I dont like liars, and the excuses those fukkers give for the things they have done smell like lies to me.
 
>
>Many public lands ranches have been
>in existence long before the
>US Forest Service or BLM
>ever came into being. The
>public land was broken up
>and divided, fenced and went
>into government management, starting in
>about 1905. Fencing started in
>the 1930's and the present
>grazing allotments came into being.
>The gov't didn't give these
>ranchers 10 million dollars worth
>of real estate. That is
>a crap statement. They hold
>these grazing rights or privileges
>along with many other multiple
>users of this public land,
>wood cutters, hunters, loggers, mining,
>gas and oil and etc.
>Over the last almost 140
>years these public lands ranchers
>have developed a tremendous amount
>of water on the public
>range which has in turn
>enabled our deer and elk
>herds to flourish.

So deer and elk didn't flourish prior to ranchers being on the land? Ever read the journals of Lewis and Clark?

Are you sure ranchers ever had a right or is it a permit to graze? If the lands were so precious to them then why didn't they homestead them in the free land days and prove up on the acres they claim to have special privileges to?

>Like you say there are some
>bad managers out there but
>the majority are good stewards
>of the land as the
>bad managers soon go out
>of business.

Got any evidence of a rancher who was a smart business man who was forced out of business? I can give examples of hundreds who have gone on to succeed given the same exact set circumstances.


>In the case of the Laney
>deaths, with all that went
>on in the USFS taking
>away the Diamond Bar Allotment
>from the Laneys (long story)
>and them being put off
>the land it turned their
>lives upside down. The one
>brother murdered his family and
>then himself, the other brother
>went to jail and has
>made one big mess with
>all of the families involved.
>This could have been averted
>by US Government but they
>reneged on their promises and
>then put the screws to
>them. The Laneys had some
>bad advise from some lawyer
>types and made mistakes but
>never the less, the gov't
>put them out of business

So how come if a guy loses his job in a factory he doesn't go home and shoot his family? Bad legal advise is one thing that is difficult for the Federal government to correct. Again they didn't have a grazing right they had a permit.

>with due help from the
>Biological Diversity Center folks whom
>want all grazing stopped not
>only on the Gila but
>on all public lands. Those
>people are our mortal enemy
>including all hunters. The US
>Gov't makes backroom deals with
>them daily, because many in
>the Federal Agencies are sympathizers
>or members of the radical
>environmental groups. Many liberal higher
>court judges are responsible for
>backing up the Federal Agencies
>and their radical environmental friends.

There are lot's of rotten people out there who could care less if you get to hunt or not on public lands. I agree that the law should be changed so that these groups don't make money of litigation.

>This whole fight is not about
>the wolf or the owl
>or the tortoise, it is
>about whom controls the public
>land. Us consumptive users on
>the public land are slowly
>but surely losing the fight.

One thing is for sure I don't want state legislatures to control it. They can be bought of with a good steak and some premium hootch. To get to a congress member you need real money. State control is the same as no control and it will be sold off and locked up.


>Whether you like the Bundys or
>the Hammonds or the Laneys
>or the Martinez brothers or
>many other ranchers whom have
>a long history of ranching
>on the public land or
>not, you need to realize
>what has actually happened and
>look at the big picture
>and not quibble over whether
>some one burned 129 acres
>of land or what ever
>trumped up, perceived or real
>actions took place. This is
>a much bigger issue.

All these guys are not guaranteed a way of life paid for by the taxpayers, they are all sucking off the government t!t but don't seem to realize where their government cheese comes from.

The bigger issue is that anyone who idolizes these guys like you do should do a soul searching about what is and is not the truth.

Nemont
 
Thanks for the links NVBighorn I have been following this and The religious component and didn't think the LDS could support them but the links clarified LDS position well. You're correct when you read about the Bundy's and their followers one word does come to my mind the same that comes to yours.
 
Manny,

so basically your argument is the same one any two year has, "they did it first". Did you ever let your kids get away with such a stupid argument?

You shouldn't get away with it either.



Nemont
 
Newmont,

These ranchers did homestead their base property. Due to the arid west 160 acres is not enough to make a living on. They did increase the western homestead laws but not very much. Many of these ranches controlled the water, the riparian and the bottom lands and was deeded. The rest of the unappropriated lands were divided up into the different federal and state grazing allotments.

Yeah you might read the Lewis and Clark chronicles. In many of their stops they didn't even have graze for their horses and stock. No game to shoot.

That wasn't the problem. In the early homestead days and the European migration of settlers and miners and such, meat hunters and unregulated hunting just about wiped out the wildlife. After wildlife and hunting became regulated the herds began to come back. Predator control helped a lot also. (Wolves & Grizzlies)

Water development on the public land benefited wildlife hugely.

Hell I'm one of them Newmont. My family were homesteaders on all sides of my family. We worked hard for what we got and have, and yes we did pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and still pull our boots on the same way everyday. Hard work never hurt anyone. I saw a brighter future in recreation on the public land and got rid of my grazing allotments many years ago.

If you dig deep you will see that the government has not always been our friends and in particular some of the power hungry gov't employees. I have personally experienced this, more so than I care to remember or think about.

Yes many of our ranchers have had to take matters in their own hands in protecting their livestock. I guess that makes them criminals. Our Government darn sure isn't helping, only wanting to increase the number of wolves here and put the final nail in the coffin of many of these public lands ranchers and hunters damn sure better wake up and help us in this battle. These ranchers can survive if given a fair shake. None of them I know are snivelers or on the tit or anything of the sort. The supposed cheap grazing on the public land is anything but cheap. I have owned three different FS grazing allotments and can tell you the exact opposite is true.
Puting up with the Gov't on these public lands ranches is a full time job and not fun. They bring in new rangers and range cons every year or two and suddenly they know more than the rancher that has been there stewarding the land for many decades. Hell if they over grazed on the scale many here indicate they would have been out of business years ago.
 
Nemont, I see now why you got stuck being an insurance salesman.

Thousands of people here in my county alone lost their livelihood with the ESA implementation, with more on the way. There used to be 30-40 sawmills here back in the 70's and now there are 3.
 
There used to be 7 saw mills in my county now there are zero. because they cut the friggin yellow pine 10 times faster than it grew. the lack of mill jobs isn't tied to the ESA anymore than the lack of buffalo hunting jobs. this is the case in 90% of the former mill towns.


Stoner you're a riot. you think we should go back to who had everything 1st. but you draw the line at the 1st white man. if you were anything but a racist blowhard wingnut you'd advocate giving it back to the aboriginal people who took the first hose job from the government.

I accept the natives will never get it back this is the way it is. maybe you should accept we're not going back to 1854 and that's just the way it is. if you can fire up those last few brain cells give that some thought.













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