Bush's fault right?

M

manny15

Guest
LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-09 AT 07:34PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-09 AT 07:33?PM (MST)






Video Unearthed Democrats in their own words Covering up the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac Scam that caused our Economic Crisis, note the dates! SICKENING!


this last vid is about who's getting some of the stimulus, again Sickening

 
I believe that Barney Frank should be kicked out of congress, but the republicans had total power for 6 years right when this was happening, so tell me how it happened again? I don't remember loans being given out without SSNs when Clinton was in office. I think most people remember who the party of deregulation was, and is,so don't be suprised if your blame game falls on deaf ears.
 
Piper
What regulations that were dropped would have prevented the housing bubble?

Nemont
 
Piper-Just google "mortgages to illegal immigrants" and read the facts. Our government decided to issue ITIN numbers to illegals in 1996 to use for collecting income taxes and for ID for applying for mortgages. I read one Chicago newspaper article that one small bank there was lending $40 million a month using ITIN numbers for illegals. Carter started the push for loans to low income applicants and Obama's first real job was as an attorney for ACORN suing Citibank to force loans to low income people with no proof of income. The democrats own the mortgage meltdown and the republicans own the oil speculation bubble caused by the Graham/Enron loophole. That is how it happened.
 
sins of omission, 6 years and nothing was done, getting people into homes is a good thing, letting it get out of hand is bad, and it got out of hand during the republicans rein, I financed my home in 2003 and had to jump through the hurdles, by 2006 it was out of hand. From what I understand the low income housing programs were a great success, with a high pay back rate for banks, thats when wall street wanted in and greed took over, government that gave them the gun, but its capitalism that pulled the trigger
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-09 AT 11:29AM (MST)[p]Piper,

If you believe "capitalism pulled the trigger" you really need to quit drinking the Koolade. Low income housing, high income housing, middle income housing are all suffering nearly identical default rates.

The Fed, led by Alan Greenspan, reduced interest rates and induced people (both borrow and lenders) to make irrational buying decisions. Capitalism had absolutely nothing to do with it, it was fake money, printed by the fed, cheered on by both sides that convinced people that housing values only went up. That isn't capitalism, there were no market forces at work, it was a bubble created by the Fed.

If the capital markets were working then interest rates would have risen and none of this would have happened but there would not have been the "growth in the economy" that every body enjoyed. Even though that growth was an illusion.

Anyone who believe Obama's rhetoric that "only government can create and save jobs" is going to get exactly what they deserve. Only capitalism can make this country great again, that includes letting people fail and feeling the pain of economic downturns. I don't give and have never given GWB's administration any credit for having a monetary policy that was good for our country but Obama's is going to be worse. He is compounding the mistakes of the previous administration and getting in the way of market forces that could have already begun to correct the imbalances in our economy.

But to blame this crisis on capitalism shows an amazing lack of understanding of economics and government intrustion in the market place including the Federal Reserves role of inflating the housing bubble.

I pray every day that our politicians don't continue to decieve people into thing capitalism is the problem. Stifling of capitalism and market forces will help insure this economic downturn not only last longer but will be deeper then it needs to be. What flavor of KoolAde is your favorite?


Nemont
 
No disagreement from me on the greed factor kicking in but if you honestly believe that low income defaults are not a huge part of the mortgage mess then you are not living in the real world. I have three employees who make 24 to 40 thousand dollars a year who bought homes and two have been foreclosed. The other who is the lowest paid takes home $1400 per month and his house payment was $2200 per month. He failed to pay so the bank took his principal down and his payment is now $1028 per month. Doubt he can pay that either. Wonder why a bank would have made those loans in the first place? Sounds like a very successful program. Mortgage deregulation was done by Dodd, Franks and two democratic presidents. No way were the republicans going to fix that mess when the economy was still booming and piss off every poor voter in the country. They were also to blame for not taking action and doing the right thing.
 
"Piper, your kidding right". No he is not, he is really that far out in left field and does not have a clue about coming in from the rain.

RELH
 
kidding about what Accubond? it wasn't the government that was advertising, selling and promoting loans of every size and configuration, it was the free market, and the siren call of quick easy money. That doesn't mean capitalism and the free market don't work and aren't good. Watch the movie "Enron the smartest guys in the room" it gives you an idea of why deregulation sometimes goes wrong, and causes a lot of real problems for the majority of citizens, and why government sometimes has a roll to play. Instead of listening to Limbaugh, you should read a lot and listen to a variety of opinions, study, travel, meet people, make up your own opinions, because its the blockheaded idealogy on either side that gets us in trouble.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-09 AT 09:40AM (MST)[p]Piper,

I have traveled extensively throughout the world. I live in Germany for 6 years, been to every West European country and most East European countries. I read extensively and I also went to college and got a degree in history and a minor in economics.

You are wrong, it was not the free market, it was the government inflating the housing bubble. Fannie's and Freddie's role in buying up the mortgages once lent with the understanding that while these entities were "quasi governmental" the taxpayer was ulitmately on the hook if things went south. While most of the subprime loans were made by individual banks Fannie and Freddie provided the market that allowed these loans to be attractive. The Bankers certainly made the loans but they did it in an enviroment created by the Fed and easy money policy. If the Fed had fulfilled it's roll of "taking away the punch bowl just as the party is getting started" none of this would have happened. Instead the Fed doubled down lowered interest rates again and put the entire worlds economy on the back of the U.S. housing market.

If you base you understanding of economics on one movie then you are looking at current situation from a myopic view. Government is the problem, government (any government) will never allocate resources efficiently, it will always be a burden and it will always creat moral hazard.

Ever hear of the Greenspan Put? It was understood that after Greenspan wouldn't allow the hedge fund Long Term Capital Management to fail in 1998, that the Federal Reserve would move in on any huge bank or fund and prop it up. That created a moral hazard of bankers being able to take bigger risks because the Fed had signaled that it was already using the "to big to fail" rule.

The Housing bubble was created by government using it's monetary policy and the Fed continued to lower interest rates. The Fed pumped Trillions of dollars into the economy and the Bush administration borrowed Trillions more to expand government and fight the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. All the money was looking for a home and it found it in the housing market. None of that was a result of the free market, it was a reaction to artificially low interest rates, greed by both the borrower and lender and the idea that housing prices would always increase. What economic theory ever said that prices always increase? Certainly not capitalism.

So believe as you wish but just watch what is going to happen in the next 6 to 12 months. All this government intervention into our economy will guarantee a huge devaluing of the dollar and will force prices on everything higher. You won't be able to blame that on GWB or the free market because Obama will own the results.

The market and capitalism is the only thing that will save this country and to think otherwise or wish otherwise is foolishness.

Nemont
 
Nemont- I don't base anything on one movie, and I believe in capitalism and free markets of course, but I believe the government has a role to play also. Maybe the government should have a major shakeup, because its not working so well for many of us. In my opinion our market based health care is not working so well, I believe patents issued are overly broad and stifling innovation and costing the public too much money, the lack of economic opportunity in this country is harming the social makeup, and the stress on those just trying to have a decent life is insane, measure it any way you like, we could do much better. The president has a lot of people to think about, those that like money, and those that just want to work and live a somewhat decent life, there are lots of concerns out there, not just mine or yours. My belief is our government should use the power of free markets and capitalism to lift the standard of living up for our whole country, Its using human nature to lift up the individual and the whole. but totally unregulated it just lifts up the individual and causes the rest to suffer. I think we see some of that these days.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-09 AT 05:14PM (MST)[p]Piper,

Tell me of one industry which is totally unregulated. The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the United States. It not only has to comply with different laws in all 50 states but also with many, many Federal laws.

You think that only the health care industry is destroying the American way of life? Come on that is completely off base. Look back throughout the history of this debate, every time government has stepped in and "helped" the American people it has cost more. If you think a single payer system is somehow going to make life tolerable for the "working" people you need to stop and think how many of them would be willing to stand in line. It is a fallacy that every country with single payers systems are doing just fine, there is rationing of health care in almost every country.

Our government can't use the power of free markets because when the intervene the benefits always flow to whom ever has the most political power. Governments cannot harness the market forces because they are inherently opposed to using market forces. Government redistributes money less efficiently then the market would, governments do a terrible job of sorting out who truly needs help and who is just along for the free ride.

Now Government has decided that only itself can rescue this country and in doing so have destroyed the balance sheet of the Federal Reserve, have enslaved all future generations of Americans, have guaranteed a reduced standard of living for my children, grand children and great grandchildren.

If you think working people have it tough right now, just wait you have not seen anything like what is coming. Our parents and grand parents have but it may even be worse then that. Like I said before President Obama has made some truly great moves in the area of diplomacy but his monetary policy is worse the GWB's if that is possible. Bernanke and Geithner have their finger prints all over the banking crisis and now we are looking to them to solve the problem. We are commiting $2 trillion dollars to further bailout failed banks and printing money to do it. This approach has never worked throughout history and it always leads to bigger problems down the road.

I believe government has a role but so far they have nationlized banks that they should have let fail, they have printed money that is backed by thin air and they are about to embark on a borrowing spree that would have made GWB blush. That is far too big of a role and one that is unhealthy on just about every level. The Federal government is going to offer everyone that overspent a bailout but penalize anyone who decided to save their money and live within their means. It is horrible policy and even worse morality.

In a way I still hope the rest of the world will refuse to loan us any more money. Our country is broke, doesn't produce anything and debasing it's currency just to avoid hard choices.

Nemont
 
Nemont-I understand and can agree with you on a lot of that, and Im one of those that has always lived within my means. Truthfully I don't like thinking about and obsessing about money, its just not my cup of tea, Im lazy in that respect. I think health care is the biggest single drag on the economy, Here is a stat. Health care costs in the state of Wyoming rose 100% between 2000 and 2007, imagine if your taxes were hiked that much. Its good that it employs so many people, I only wish more of them actually provided care, we have a sort of cruel health care rationing in this country, many people don't get preventive care because of fear and the high cost, and many without insurance don't go because they will then have a pre existing condition, many become stifled and can't move or change jobs easily because of employer based insurance. our taxes and borrowing keep going up to pay for medicare and government employee insurance. Many other countrys have had computerized medical records for years and here we are, I truly hate the way health care is in this country, and believe it or not I talk with many people that feel a lot like me. maybe its the nature of the beast, but Im sure we could do a lot better
 
Piper,
Have you considered what new law was required to be phased in during the same time period? HIPAA required a tremedous amount of compliance costs. Have you ever seen the HIPAA manual? It is like 8 NY City phonebooks in size. So that was forced upon the entire health care industry as a result of the failed Hillary Care attempt. Yet you blame the evil industry and look to government to solve the problem. I wish the government would quit helping because over the last 13 years of me doing what I do, every time the State of Federal Government helped it only increased the cost to my clients.

Compliance cost has hammered by self funded clients even worse then my fully insured clients.

If you hate the way health care is delivered then explain what needs to be done in order to deliver it cheaper and in a way that the American people will accept. Imagine going to a group like the UAW and telling them that the great health care they got through collective bargaining is going to be replaced by a governmental plan with less coverage. You suppose they would jump on that bandwagon, I highly doubt they would be willing to sacrifice that coverage.

I talk to people everyday who either cannot afford coverage or cannot buy coverage at any price. My largest competitor is No Coverage, so don't preach to me about it, I work every day trying to help individuals and businesses make their health care dollars do more and stretch further.

One guaranteed way to no do better is to think that bureaucrats can run things better then somebody who does it every day.

Nemont
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

474D2620-3802-4A40-8473-CCFFF2FE2D0D.jpeg
24532.png
IMG_4439.jpeg
IMG_1081.JPG
2010CO-1.jpg
7E6792E7-3829-4120-92BB-C13AD8A6010D.jpeg
IMG_9467.jpeg
IMG_1392.jpeg
IMG_9109.jpeg
san juan elk side view.jpg
DSCN0054.JPG
93F29953-E41F-4BB6-8567-ED7923C44962.jpeg
Back
Top Bottom