Cancelled Hunt Refund Question

Hunt4more

Hunt4more

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If you paid a 50 percent deposit for a guided pack hunt, traveled 3/4 of the way to your hunt and phoned your outfitter only to find out his camp cook answered the phone to tell you the hunt is off due to weather, is it reasonable for your outfitter to keep your deposit due to him incurring costs and loss of revenue? Keep in mind the outfitter was stuck inside the unit and couldn't call, except to camp to let his people know. His safety was in question. I'm not sticking up for him just trying to give you his side of the story. I obviously feel I deserve my deposit back. A deposit is to insure the hunter shows up. If the guide can not deliver a hunt, then how can he feel entitled to a hunters deposit? Thanks for your thoughts.
 
On top of it all, no one called me from his office to say we are having some weather issues and it's not looking good. I drove 14 hours only to hear and turn around and drive 14 hours back the next day. Someone at the outfit should of had my number to give me a heads up? I couldn't believe it when I heard "there's no money to give back". Like that's my problem. If $3k makes all the difference (me and my dad) in your business, maybe you should have insurance or run your business with a little more capital.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-13 AT 00:22AM (MST)[p]Unbelievable! I'd be extremely pissed to have driven 14 hours and then be told, oops, sorry, bad weather, let alone them refusing a refund!! Guides generally live off of word of mouth. I'd get a hold of him personally and let him know what a crock of BS it is and not only demand a refund, but I'd demand compensation for time and fuel! If that doesn't work, put his name out there and sue him in small claims court.
 
>What was said when you booked
>the hunt?
>
>Non-refundable deposit?


I'm pulling out the contract. It was a pretty basic one page agreement.
 
I didn't have much of a problem getting in with horses, but once you got off the trail a bit it was pretty hard on the horses, it was probably pretty bad in that 2nd season, however your deposit was for your hunt you never got and you should get that back.Your guide should have had a back up plan. Maybe you could call the fish and game and get some names of the hunters that were on that hunt and get the scoop.
 
A guide should prepare physically, logistically and economically for ANY weather because that's the nature of the business. This one came up short and needs to pay the price for his shortsidedness which is a hard lesson to be learned. Do him a favor and make sure he learns it even if you have to take him to court.
 
>What was said when you booked
>the hunt?
>
>Non-refundable deposit?

A non-refundable deposit puts the burden on the client to pay the remaining balance and show up or risk losing their money. It doesn't give the guide the option to say, "Sorry, bad weather, so no hunt for you, but I'm keeping your money anyway."
 
You should get it all back and a huge discount for next year for the screw up! Just my opinion from the info provided.
 
If you cancled then I agree with outfitter. But since he cancled you better get money back. Be sure to read all your fine print to check all his rules
 
If he doesn't give you back your money, notify the state licensing agency that gave him his guiding license. I am sure they would be glad to help you, or pull his license so it doesn't happen again.
 
Mother nature can be tough.......

If hes not offering a refund he should offer a credit for a future hunt. The Outfitter cancelled the hunt, you didnt.
 
>Mother nature can be tough.......
>
>If hes not offering a refund
>he should offer a credit
>for a future hunt. The
>Outfitter cancelled the hunt, you
>didnt.


Thanks for all the feedback. Still digging up the contact. I'll keep you posted if the outfitter does the right thing. Thanks again.
 
Been an outfitter for 20+ years. Any reputable outfitters would offer a refund and compensation for next year. Contact the state outfitter board if you don't receive a refund/credit. Reputation/referral is the blood line in this business so hopefully he will show his integrity and do the right thing.
 
>If he does not refund your
>money, please post his name
>so everybody on MM can
>avoid a bad deal in
>the future!

If he doesn't refund your deposit in full, i would post his sorry a$$ name and this story on every hunting forum on the web. In fact, i would post it on all of the forums even if he ultimately does pay up. An outfitter that doesn't make this right from the get go is no outfitter that i would want to hire. People like this should not be in the business.

One post on one forum can hurt an outfitters reputation. Imagine what it would do if you posted it on 50+ forums.
 
I've only hired a few fishing jaunts and one bird hunting trip in my days so no experience with guided big game trips ,BUT, if what you described, happened to me, i'd have given him one chance to make it good before everybody i know, including everybody here, got the full story, names included, very loud and crystal clear.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
I finally spoke to the outfitter, Jim Mater, of Utrail/Elite Gila Hunts out of Glenwood New Mexico. He made it very clear to me he had spent my deposit and did not have the money to give it back. I mentioned he could make payments and he said
"no". I told him again, deposits are to ensure the hunter shows up and even on his very own website he states " deposits are non-refundable UNLESS the outfitter cancels the hunts". Jim turned out to be a "penny wise and dollar foolish". He was quick to say "bring me to court and get a judgement against me, I don't care!". Well Jim, this is what I will do and for a lot more than the $3k deposit.
 
Getting a judgment against him is likely to be the easy part, collecting it will be another matter. I suspect the outfitter will make it as difficult as he can to keep you from collecting your settlement by hiding his income and assets. Expect to spend years of frustration trying to collect.

Best bet, IMO, would be to get local law enforcement to charge him with fraud.
 
Thanks Kevin. Didn't think of that. I guess outfitters don't care about their credit these days. Especially ones that don't have any money.
 
First of all, right now, you are acting out of emotion, and that is seldom a good thing.

I would wait a few days, think about it a little more, gather as much information as I could, and then make my decision as to what to do.

There are two sides to every story, so far we only have yours. I wouldn't be able to make a really sound determination on the matter until I hear his side of the story first. Not to say that you probably aren't right - so far it sounds like there is a definite breach of agreement, whether that is criminal or not or even bad customer service for that matter still needs to be determined.

HOOK 'EM!
_______________________________________

Since I am frequently asked about my religion on this site and others, I have created a profile that explains my beliefs. If you are interested in finding out more about my faith, please visit the link below:

http://mormon.org/me/6RNQ/
 
That's messed up. He should at least apply your deposit to a future hunt. That's a lot of money to just give up because of "weather".

What's a client supposed to do? Pay a deposit and then pray it doesn't rain?

Eel
 
Hi Roy, I spoke to the outfitter last week. I have waited it out and thought about all sides of the argument. It says on his website, deposits are non-refundable unless the outfitter cancels the hunt. When I was it Flagstaff, after I drove 14 hours, the camp cook said the hunt was cancelled due to flood style rains. The question is where does the deposit go? Should the customer take the pain, or should the outfitter? Welcome your thoughts.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-13 AT 09:59AM (MST)[p]I know this might be a long shot. You didn't by chance pay with a credit card did you? If so you can do a charge back.
 
At the very least your deposit should be put towards a future hunt although at this point the relationship between you and the outfitter is strained to the point I don't see how it would be an enjoyable hunt.
 
>At the very least your deposit
>should be put towards a
>future hunt although at this
>point the relationship between you
>and the outfitter is strained
>to the point I don't
>see how it would be
>an enjoyable hunt.


Oil can, I thought about this and would be open to it except the draw odds for the elk hunt non res are like 10 percent or less. Plus he said he would need the deposit up front again and forgive the back end 50 percent. That's not something I can do considering the low odds to draw and how he handled the situation.
 
Did you stay and hunt somewhere anyway?
If I had drawn a 10% odds tag you can bet some hunting would have been done, one way or the other.

I think you hooked up with a shady outfitter who is just refusing to pay back what's yours.

Bummer of a deal for you. Pretty sweet deal for the outfitter since he had to do nothing for your money!!!

Good luck,
Zeke
 
First thing I'd do is get a screen shot of, and print off, the down payment policy where he states it is refundable if he cancels. He'll delete that soon. Next, I'd lodge a complaint with the New Mexico BBB, the attorney general's office and the NM Dept of Wildlife.

Read this rule:
http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/enforcement/guide_outfitter/RegistrationRule.pdf
Looks like Outfitters are licensed in NM and going after that would get results. I wouldn't let it consume me, but it doesn't take much time to lodge a few complaints and file in small claims court.

We all watched Roy's time consuming fight to save a few hundred bucks and make his ticket right. Just jabbing you Roy, no offense meant. My guess is that if you were in Beast's shoes you'd be on the fight.
 
+1, I think your best bet for getting money back would be with a complaint to the outfitters association. That is the least expensive option for you

As stated, a judgement doesn't get you any money. You then have to file a lein against assets and hope he sells something someday.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>First thing I'd do is get
>a screen shot of, and
>print off, the down payment
>policy where he states it
>is refundable if he cancels.
>He'll delete that soon.
>Next, I'd lodge a complaint
>with the New Mexico BBB,
>the attorney general's office and
>the NM Dept of Wildlife.
>
>
>Read this rule:
>http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/enforcement/guide_outfitter/RegistrationRule.pdf
>Looks like Outfitters are licensed in
>NM and going after that
>would get results. I
>wouldn't let it consume me,
>but it doesn't take much
>time to lodge a few
>complaints and file in small
>claims court.
>
>We all watched Roy's time consuming
>fight to save a few
>hundred bucks and make his
>ticket right. Just jabbing
>you Roy, no offense meant.
> My guess is that
>if you were in Beast's
>shoes you'd be on the
>fight.

No offense taken1 But get the facts straight - it was $25!! HA HA.

No, you are right. I read the other thread in the Elk forum too and piecing the info together leads me to believe you have a legitimate argument and should do what you can to get your deposit back. Especially if it took 10 years to draw that tag and you were counting on using that Oufitter to get you to the area. Sure, the weather is a bad thing, but in this case, I would have done some hunting one way or the other. I would have told him "I am in Flagstaff and on my way. We can talk about it when I get there."

Sorry you had such a bad experience.


HOOK 'EM!
_______________________________________

Since I am frequently asked about my religion on this site and others, I have created a profile that explains my beliefs. If you are interested in finding out more about my faith, please visit the link below:

http://mormon.org/me/6RNQ/
 
I'm not a lawyer, or a resident of that or your state, but once you get a judgement, if he has a salaried job during the remaining part of the year you can file for garnishment of his wages. If he is strictly either contract or self-employed, you would attempt to get a lien placed on either property or personal assets, but that can be difficult.

It's likely his credit is torched and he doesn't care about that aspect, but a Judgement will impact credit.

I too would contact the Licensing board before incurring costs. If that is his main source of income, once he get's past his frustration at the circumstances, he may think more clear headed and work something out.

I'm a banker and have had to foreclose on borrowers who default on loans and the first thing I always do is try and find out how much leverage I have. I do not get "angry" until all other avenues are worked through and I know I have leverage. So, figure out what leverage you have and in the mean time keep a cordial dialogue if possible. Be practical.

PS I never win if I have to go to court or start foreclosure proceedings, too costly financially and emotionally.
 
I'd consult a collection attorney in his state on the best way to handle. If the guy is a prick like it sounds, you might be able to take him so small claims court for a lot less than hiring an attorney and going through a district court. Getting a Judgement may not be too difficult if the guy doesn't give a schnit. A Default Judgement means the case is uncontested and the Judge will usually enter a verdict in your favor. The attorney can then use the Judgement to get the garnishment paperwork all in order. From there it might be relatively easy to collect. Hire someone to do an asset search which is relatively cheap to find out bank account and other personal info. I was involved in some cases where we had garnishments and showed up at the bank and cleaned out their checking and saving accounts. You want to piss someone off, go that route. You may also be able to show up at his residence with a sheriff's deputy and start seizing personal assets. The attorney will be able to tell you what's available for garnishment in that state.
 
Did the outfitter fulfill his part of the contract (NO)
Did he offer to roll it into next year, (still would have draw a tag) for that unit or was it a LO tag.
Why would the outfitter think he would get to keep the money. The hunt never took place, No Weather clause in contract.

What did he use that money for. Co-mingling funds is the surest way to go broke by robbing Peter to pay Paul, that is what he did if he has no money left to refund.

Sorry to the outfitters on here, But the money should be refunded since the hunt never happen with no one at fault.
Why would a guy who makes his living on his word as a outfitter not honor it and refund at least half or all or put it toward the next season he draws a tag for that unit if that was possible, If not possible then refund it.

There isn't a free lunch that would allow them to keep the money unless it in the contract under the weather clause.
But it will be a civil matter that will have to be handled in court.

I would be talking to the F&G Dept, BBB, Guide and outfitter license Board and anyone else that has a say in the running of outfitters in NM. Too many black marks will get them booted sooner or later.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>Life member of
>the MM green signature club.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
This morning I printed out screenshots from his site. This evening his site is down. Seems the word is traveling fast!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-13 AT 11:14PM (MST)[p]The site is up and here is the cancellation policy

CANCELLATION POLICY
Guests can cancel trips and apply deposits to another date, up to a full year. Deposits are non-refundable, unless U-Trail cancels a scheduled pack trip. U-Trail reserves the right to change or alter trip destinations due to weather conditions.

Any changes to it?

Good you have some screen shots. Now a couple calls to law enforcement and the NMGF will get the ball rolling. Shouldn't take too much time or consume you.
 
This is Jim's email he sent to me weeks after we returned from our "non-hunt". I had still yet to hear from him on the phone. FYI - Flagstaff was 14 hours, the Gila was only 4 hours more to go. We he says he "got the word out", I called the office as he said I should at the end of the day of driving and got his cook. It's not like anyone form his camp called me. Although, his ranch hand, Jim's wife, cook were all at home at the office and pretty sure they could of picked up the phone. I sent Jim my numbers many times.


"Hello U-Trail 2013 Deposit Holders,

We do understand your wish to get a refund of your deposit. But the deposit money for all fall booked trips is expensed already by the end of August. For what: In preparation for wilderness work to make your trip a high quality one, weather hunting or recreation.

Deposits are expensed to maintain our operations. So, when hunters and recreational riders meet up at the trailhead, we are ready for you. That includes for example: 1. Assuring safe and healthy horses, 2. Giving you the best service ? experiences guides, cooks, supervisor, 3. Equine feed, 4. Shoeing, 5. Supplies for the trailhead, 6. Supplies for wilderness camp, 7. Fuel for trucks, 8. Contracted labor, 9. Human food, 10. Camping gear.

Beginning Sept. 10th and thru Sept. 15th, the Gila Wilderness received historic rainfalls which ended in an act of nature beyond control.

On Sept. 16th, I had to end the hunts for the second bow hunters and begin the process of evacuation, as our normal river crossing was too high and the wilderness trails became unsafe.

Evacuation efforts began Sept. 18th and lasted until Oct. 7th, until the last of the hunters gear was packed out of the wilderness. New Mexico declared a State of Emergency, and the area we worked, received the greatest amount of rainfall, making our workplace inaccessible either by vehicle or horseback.

As a result, all work had to be cancelled from beginning of our evacuation until the beginning of the first rifle hunt which we had only 2 hunters booked.

The conditions we faced where historic in nature, and as such, we cannot see our way to repay any deposits. So, we are forced to announce a force majeure clause.

We can offer a roll-over of deposits for future hunts or rides. This is a generous offer as we would have to re-expense your deposits to set up your bookings.

Hoping all deposit holders can understand our situation. We are happy to welcome you on a future hunt or recreational trip.

Jim

Hello Tony, Regarding your specific hunt, we additional had to expense the cook, guide and food for your trip, fyi. And we where very fortunate to be able to get word to you in Flagstaff, instead of you and your dad driving all the way to the Gila. As communication from wilderness areas is not a assured result. We where lucky to be able to reach a sat. phone on the 16th. In the end, there was no way for U-Trail to absorb the storm. "
 
If I were you, I would begin laying the ground work for a lawsuit. He owes you your deposit back. Period. I wouldnt give a rats ass if he spent the money. He better sell some horse and tack to pay the deposits back. ASAP!

Get a good lawyer and go to work on this guy. You drew a OIL tag that you just cannot, show up next year for. That is a load of bull in a hand basket.


He is liable to refund your money. He canceled the hunt, not you. Had no communication with you over the 'rain' delays.

He is a liar, a cheat and needs to be held accountable.

Go after his outfitting license as well. Get it revoked.

Put his feet to the fire and dont back down or give up.

Stay on him!
 
Thanks Dreaminbouthuntin. I sent off the complaint to the outfitter board this morning at the NM Dept Fish and Game. Step 1.
 
Hey Jim..

11734956420551_fd7e962043_b.jpg


Give the man his money back.
 
Does your contact with this particular outfitter say anything about the "force majeure clause"? Regardless of the deposit policy an Act of God thing is going to trump any contractual obligation. And if he offerers the credit for the deposit towards another hunt he is most likely off the hook entirely.

This is not fraud and not a criminal act by statue. Meaning law enforcement wouldnt get anymore involved in this than they would foreclosing or repossessing a house, car, or whatever.

My guess is every outfitter on the face of the planet has some sort of clause regarding an Act of God event. Now some outfitters may handle it differently, but legally they probably aren't liable unless there is neglect or fraud involved. And this doesn't appear to meet those elements.

It sucks for sure, 3k is a lot of money too me, but I don't think your going to get any resolution through the legal system.
 
The odds of draw that tag again in the next ten years isn't funny. NR draw odd suck for this unit.
So are you saying the outfitter should just keep his money for 2-10 years. Bull$hit Feeding your horses is a year around deal, so if you don't suck in enough clients you don't feed those animals the rest of the year. LOL.
Maybe new saddles and packsaddles for each clients hunt, Do you send the extra food stuff home with them too.
JIM
Please post up a list of all the stuff you had to buy for THIS client hunt with his money. I'm sure you have it right close by so you can expense it off for each hunt.

Jim
Come on tell us your side WE sure would like to hear it.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Sure sounds like that letter was coached. He is trying to put a spin on it.

If he wants to supply you with a landowner unit wide tag, then he may have a point, but, that would cost him more than the 3K he owes you.
I would not want to spend a week in camp with a guy like that at this point.
 
Now two unit wide tags for next season would be something but being the unit is mostly public, there are few tags like this for 16B. Honestly, I don't think Mater would every offer up something like this, nor could he...
 
Gunnie, what constitutes an "act of god"? He couldn't cross the river to get back to his trailers, is that an act of god? If he didn't have any business the 2nd week, then he would of been home, meeting me on schedule. Like many others who hunted that week, there was good hunting, you just had to adapt to the conditions.
 
I'd give him a set time-frame to issue a refund and if that fails, I'd post this info on every online forum I could find. Outfitters live by word of mouth and If he wants to play that game, I'd make sure every time someone does a Google search of his name or the name of his outfit, they read this story. Might not get your money back, but I guarandamntee it'll cost him far more than $3k in the future. Try and screw me out of $3k and the gloves will come off!
 
Im an outfitter in Montana. We have a very regimented board of outfitters here in this state. It would be a no brainer for you to get your deposit back here or else a situation like this would result in the termination of his license. On that note we also have to "file" a cancellation policy with the board. It is law that we provide that policy to every client. If we stray from that policy it is grounds for termination. Hopefully NM has a similar policy. I agree that the NM outfitter board is your first and best bet to get your deposit back. Never a good thing to bring an attorney into the situation. That being said. I would do all I could to strong arm him on his reputation. The world is a small place these days. And not giving you your deposit back is gonna cost him alot more than what he owes you. He should have insurance to cover this kind of thing too. If so you may look into taking him on that as well.
 
Speaking of insurance....it's too late for you now but you can purchase trip cancellation insurance through a third party. I've done it in the past. Any time you book a hunt well into the future you never know what might happen. I think I paid about $250 to insure my deposit/tag fees, etc. It was payable no matter the reason for the cancellation.

Something to think about for future hunts.

Eel
 
Never thought of that eel. Thanks.... Posting the 30 day notice/demand to pay back deposit today. Let's get this show on the road.
 
Jim, (Utrail outfitters)
I truly hope you are still reading these threads, because there is some great advice and valuable comments being made to you.
You are a business owner and I have to assume you want to stay in business.
Making the "right" choices in business are not always the easiest choices.
It appears to me that BeastN gave you plenty of time and opportunity to make the "right" decision...and it is my guess that it is more important to him (and his father) to get their money back, rather than waste their time "fighting for it" in these forums.
It is NOT too late for you to do the right thing and for BeastN to come on this site and let everyone know that you have made that choice. I have spoke with BeastN in the past and I know he is a "stand up guy". In fact he was sharing his excitement with me over drawing this tag and booking his hunt with you. We stayed in contact and I shared in his disappointment when he informed me from Flagstaff AZ. the day he got word you had cancelled the hunt. He inquired to me that day of what I thought you would offer in terms of a refund of their deposit, and my answer was that I assumed you would absolutely offer a full refund or at the very least the opportunity to roll to a future year.

I am very curious to know (and feel free to post) what your contract states you will do with deposits in the event of "cancelled" hunts?

My heart goes out to those people whom lost lives, livestock, and/or property during the flooding...but I also have to ask why the State of NM did not "cancel" any of these hunts?
In states where there were devastating fires or flooding (CO. this year), we have seen cancelled hunts...and a refund by the state of tag fees for those units affected. It is my understanding that the State of NM did not cancel hunts in this unit. But you did. BeastN hired you to perform a service to which you cancelled, yet you don't find it appropriate to offer him the choice of a full refund? Your other clients that may have accepted your offer of rolling over their deposits may be residents of NM with a far greater chance of drawing this tag again in the near future?

There are two sides to every story, and your side in this case has been very weak. You basically said your other customers (EVERY one of them) were "offered and accepted a rollover of their deposits". What other offer did you give them a choice of? Or was this their ONLY choice? Again, what does your contract state?

JoDog, above, drives it home to me when he said they "had the hunt of a lifetime". BeastN and his dad did NOT! Why?

Opportunities to hunt with our fathers are far and few between! As are drawing "premium hunt tags".

Do the RIGHT thing, offer a full refund, and let's all put this thread to rest. I promise you that no one on this site wants to read about a hunter, or an outfitter, getting screwed.

Again, it is NOT too late for you to fix this and give BeastN and his Dad back their deposits.
I will join BeastN in coming on this site and saying that you did the right thing!
Best of luck to you and your dad, BeastN!

Regards,
Rando
 
Who else do you pay 50% down to in advance and then 100% of the rest to before you get what you pay for?

I've never paid a Guide or outfitter to hunt Deer, hopefully never will but there are too many cases of unreputable people in the business, like this guy here, for us hunters to continue this practice.

I'm in the construction trades and own my own Co. It costs me plenty to be in business and have all i need in place to go to work. Most i can get up front is 10% and it should be the same with outfitters. If they can't run their business on their own dime until the service, the hunt is finished, they shouldn't be in the business to begin with and the more likely to be ripping you off.

I've felt this way for years and years. 50% up front and the other 50% due on arrival is insane! That's my opinion!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 

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