Changes at the Caldera

Wow, they will definately lose money on this, but my odds of drawing should go way up! I really doubt this will attract more people to purchase and I never bought 20 tickets so I am glad to get rid of those guys.
 
Not sure how this is a good thing.

Is the idea to make the Caldera more upside down so that they are at the mercy of the Federal Government?

Why not drop the max to 10 tickets to see if that helps more people get involved.

Why drop the prices of the tickets?

They have a unique product and if they were smart they could market it and increase their revenue.

I watch some of this stuff and remember that most people in Government never ran a business and do not have a clue about what it takes to make payroll etc.... including our President.
 
Wow! I'm baffled. Why do people think, including the VC staff, that it is so expensive to hunt the VC? As it was, $30 gave you a chance. Also, for the most part, I believe, the same folks put in for the VC year after year. How would doing this possibly bring in the extra revenue? As stated before, I guess I won't go broke buying tickets....which I gladly did:)
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-13 AT 06:13PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-13 AT 06:04?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-13 AT 05:57?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-13 AT 05:53?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-13 AT 05:52?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-13 AT 05:47?PM (MST)

Wow!! Is this a joke?
 
The VC is cutting their own throat. They will have to find 48 people to buy one ticket each just to replace what I spent on tickets every year. Good luck with that.
 
Come on Paul of course this could work in the business world!
Here is an example:

Local Bar beer prices:

Old rates; $3.00/beer or 5 beers for $2.00 each (limit 20 beers for $40 total)

New rates; $2.50/beer (limit 1 beer)

Now its just going to take 16 NEW customers to each buy 1 beer (ticket) at 16.6% off the old 1 beer price to equal the 20 beers (tickets/hunt code) i was buying before. Because now i don't want a beer (ticket) if i can only have one!

Also worth mentioning i was drinking 20 beers of each of the 5 brews sold as were 4 of my other family members.

Thats 500 beers (tickets) that 5 people were buying before that will now take
100 new customers buying 1 beer(ticket) from each brew (hunt code) to equal what i was buying for my family!!

I think i'm drunk!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-13 AT 05:21AM (MST)[p]Has anyone talked to Dennis personally about this change? Smells like Federal politics to me and is deeper than we think. Lets make it lose money so it will have to go to the park service.......and we are leveling the playing field.....

It won't be long before the folks get to buy these tickets with their welfare cards.....
 
It is pretty obvious that any motivation by the VC to make money is completely gone.

Now it appears to be just a political puppet.

I can see no thought process that would be, lets try to increase revenue and increase participation in the raffle.
No marketing. Just bending over to pressure.

I noticed NMWF was touting these changes. I will watch them do a few good things, and then pull something stupid like this. Maybe the strategy is to wreck the VC so bad financially that the NPS steps in and ruins it permanently. Bad idea to lose local control.
 
I love the Caldera! Does anyone have last years drawing statistics?

I wonder with NR being removed from cow tags and cut to 6% on the bulls if this had any impact on their decision? Heck for $25 and a 1 ticket chance I think I will apply again this year!
 
I'm sure the 6% NR dis had some impact. I know it did for me, havent applied in NM since. I may now give the VC a whirl.
 
Mr. Dennis Trujillo is quoted as saying;
"We expect the price reductions to affect hunt program revenues, but we believe, over TIME, the lower application fees and single ticket per hunt limit will attract more purchasers looking for a chance to hunt the preserve for the first time"

Although i certainly dont think this tactic has any chance of increasing revenue I am still puzzled.
Since when do they have TIME to wait for an increase in revenue?
I thought time was up for that. Any thoughts?
 
Something is certainly fishy here. I'm sure Jamaro and NMWF are excited by this news. IN my opinion, NMWF is worse than PETA.
 
Mr. Ray Brown..
This wasn't pushed by us but I think it is a good idea... The idea that everyone has a fair shot is good. If you had enough money, you could basically run the numbers in your favor. I think the idea the the VC was pushing is that with better odds for the average joe hunter more people would be in. At this point they are trying anything.

Anyway... My odds just went up and so did a whole bunch of average hunters that don't have a ton of cash to spend. As far as this shooting themselves in the foot financially, what they were doing wasn't/isn't working so like the press release says.


?We expect the price reductions to affect hunt program revenues,? said Trujillo , ?but we believe, over time, the lower application fees and single ticket per hunt limit will attract more purchasers
looking for a chance to hunt the Preserve for the first time
 
BTW.. Who said the NMWF had anything to do with this??? The VC made a decision in order to try and save it's own rear-end and now people are second guessing... This was a VC Board issue so your anger is focused on the WRONG people. When you call Dennis or Kent let me know what they say.

J-
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-13 AT 04:27PM (MST)[p]Didn't say that NMWF had anything to do with it. Just said that you guys would be excited by the news, which you confirmed. A few months ago you were saying how the VC was struggling financially and was running out of time. Now, you're saying how great this move is even if it will result in less revenue (certainly in the short-run). How does this help them solve their immediate financial problem and prevent them from having to turn it over to another agency? Or maybe, you just want them to fail?
 
So you are telling me that more opportunity for the average hunter is a bad thing? In the short run it might be a downfall but even as is the numbers never worked...

So to answer your questions.
1) Yes, more and equal opportunity for the average hunter - Good Thing

2)The fees have never been the solution - what they are doing now isn't working... If it was this wouldn't be an issue.

3)We all know that the way the trust was setup that there was no way it was going to succeed... Do I want things to stay the same? Yes, but again the way the trust was setup it just isn't going to work.

Bottom Line - This move was done by the VC Board and ONLY the VC Board. They are trying to do something to get MORE people into the draws rather than those that can afford to out buy everyone.
 
Jason, this is a raffle.

Do you know of any fund raiser, company, etc... that would run a raffle so that more people buy tickets, but, they make less money??

How does that possibly make sense?

This is typical government thinking. Someone squealed about opportunity and a stupid decision was made.

We have won several VC raffles. We buy tickets because it is important to me. I know lots of people with new trucks every 5 years, all the toys that complain about how much it costs to buy a bunch of tickets.
They choose to spend their money on other stuff. I have never bought a new vehicle, I am careful with my finances, but, it I choose to buys multiple tickets.

How is it possibly good for VC to make less money on elk hunting. As it is now, the elk operation can look across the table at the day pass folks, the star gazers, the cross country skiers and all the other non solvent VC uses and say. Elk hunting makes money.
Why would you possibly want to be as big a failure as the rest of the ventures.
Beyond belief that anyone would even support it.

I could see an adjustment of how they do the raffle. Reduce it to 10 tickets and raise the price of the ticket. But to reduce the price of the ticket and set a limit of 1 ticket is just dumb.
It is the same as saying "we want to lose more money".

Meanwhile, VC almost does nothing to market the hunt.

They should have a different hunting show on the VC every year.
The VC is a jewel. It is a incredibly unique hunting experience.

for the price of one bull every year they could get advertizing from different hunting shows.

These guys would fall over each other to film a hunt on there.

This is why the government is always the least effective at running any kind of business.

I normally try to stay out of these type of posts in this forum, but, this is such an unbelievable level of stupid that I cannot help myself.
 
As far as I'm concerned, Unit 6 was much better when the Baca was private. There was sure a whole lot less hunter bickering when the only chance to hunt it was to buy a landowner tag or guided hunt. Nobody will ever agree on how to manage it. Sportsmen will argue about it until no one will be able to hunt it.

-- Bill
 
>better odds for people with more
>money is never a good
>idea


Well congrats, all of you socialists can be happy now. I think that the next time I book an airline ticket I'm going to insist that I get a first class ticket for the price of coach, because no one should be able to get better services just because they can afford more!!
 
>better odds for people with more
>money is never a good
>idea


Better odds for people that pay for more tickets is how raffles work.

The first principal in business is to try to make a profit.

VC was charged with being solvent. They seem to have lost track of that.

If they can make elk hunting fail, then, they are on the same level of playing field as sleigh rides, bird watching, and cross country skiing. Alot easier to cave to the antis when you cannot even boast a revenue.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-13 AT 03:26PM (MST)[p]I agree with 4blade, when we're talking the public draw.
The problem with the VC is most look at it as a public "draw hunt" when in reality it's a raffle.
 
Wonder how it would be if every Unit was a raffle instead of a draw? Once again, only the rich could "hunt". But I bet the hungry will still eat.

--Bill
 
>Jason, this is a raffle.
>
>Do you know of any fund
>raiser, company, etc... that would
>run a raffle so that
>more people buy tickets, but,
>they make less money??
>
>How does that possibly make sense?
>
>
>This is typical government thinking.
>Someone squealed about opportunity and
>a stupid decision was made.
>
>
>We have won several VC raffles.
> We buy tickets because
>it is important to me.
> I know lots of
>people with new trucks every
>5 years, all the toys
>that complain about how much
>it costs to buy a
>bunch of tickets.
>They choose to spend their money
>on other stuff. I
>have never bought a new
>vehicle, I am careful with
>my finances, but, it I
>choose to buys multiple tickets.
>
>
>How is it possibly good for
>VC to make less money
>on elk hunting. As
>it is now, the elk
>operation can look across the
>table at the day pass
>folks, the star gazers, the
>cross country skiers and all
>the other non solvent VC
>uses and say. Elk
>hunting makes money.
>Why would you possibly want to
>be as big a failure
>as the rest of the
>ventures.
>Beyond belief that anyone would even
>support it.
>
>I could see an adjustment of
>how they do the raffle.
> Reduce it to 10
>tickets and raise the price
>of the ticket. But to
>reduce the price of the
>ticket and set a limit
>of 1 ticket is just
>dumb.
>It is the same as saying
>"we want to lose more
>money".
>
>Meanwhile, VC almost does nothing to
>market the hunt.
>
>They should have a different hunting
>show on the VC every
>year.
>The VC is a jewel.
>It is a incredibly unique
>hunting experience.
>
>for the price of one bull
>every year they could get
>advertizing from different hunting shows.
>
>
>These guys would fall over each
>other to film a hunt
>on there.
>
>This is why the government is
>always the least effective at
>running any kind of business.
>
>
>I normally try to stay out
>of these type of posts
>in this forum, but, this
>is such an unbelievable level
>of stupid that I cannot
>help myself.

AMEN Paul! Beyond Stupid!
 
I don't know, this may be a good thing.

If I don't have to compete against 10 guys buying 10 tickets ea. (which are worse odds than going to the blackjack table) Then for the first time ever; I will be putting in.

My only consternation. If my wife or I do 'draw', and the other draws somewhere else, it's hard to 'cut the tent in half' if you know what I mean. I wonder if V.C. considered a family/party draw?

If they would advertise properly, could you imagine what a one page ad in Bugle would do for income? OOOPs- the V.C is capped at 6%!
 
I think I am with Jason on this one. Not sure that makes me a socialist though (although perhaps those of us DIY public land hunters probably do support a socialist mentality when it comes to managing our wildlif). Otherwise it pay to play and hunting is becoming a rich mans sport which bothers me some. I believe our wildlife is there for all of us not just those with the deepest pockets.

All you guys in favor of letting those who want to spend more do so: Then why don't we just sell the tags to those willing to spend the most for them. That would be the fair market value of the tags and would bring in a ton more money, wouldn't it?

I bet they could sell em for $10,000 or $20,000...who gets to hunt it now?
 
The sale of those tags is set up to generate income, not to be "fair". That's why they're raffled off. If you want an equitable distribution of the tags, put them in the draw.
To try and make a raffle "equitable and fair" will do nothing but sink the raffle.
 
Alot of things could be done to make the VC raffle more profitable, and they are not doing any of them.

Instead what they come up with is something that will almost guaranteed make it less profitable.

If they marketed the raffle aggressively, I could see lowering the price, or capping the purchase at 5 tickets, but, to lower the price and reduce cap at 1 ticket???????????

No logic at all.

With a little creativity they could be making bank and still improve availability towards more hunters.
 
They are just going to make it a loser so they can do with it what they wanted to do in the first place, NM residents need to stand up and be counted before it's to late on a great treasure is lost.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
The way it is going they will get their wish, a NM mini Yellowstone. No hunting allowed and high dollar facilities.

The trust has been drained by the board lining their own pockets, overpaid uneeded management staff and projects that were expensive and uneccessary.

The only problem I saw with the way the raffle was is no limit on tickets, I believe there used to be. The price was not out of line. It is the only income for the Caldera.

I couldn't afford to buy tickets the last few years,being a average type guy in this economy. The average NM hunter can usually draw and has ample opportunity to come up with an alternative,like one of those NM only cow tags....

I don't believe in the entitlement factor,poor me,I can't draw a tag,I can't feed my family,my family doesn't get to hunt.....
and lower prices will not increase the revenue.And limit to one ticket? And what are the odds going to be then?
When it loses money further the NPS will be handed it on a platter, and the non-hunters will be happy. But they won't be able to afford to go there.
 
FYI... Not sure if this public knowledge but Dennis T. retiring Jan 3rd... Maybe this his way of giving everyone fair shot before he leaves????
 
>It was up to 20 tickets
>per hunt choice. $400 max
>for a chance at a
>&10,000 elk hunt! What
>a shame!


and you could put in for multiple hunt choices... SO you could even increase your odd even more
 
>>It was up to 20 tickets
>>per hunt choice. $400 max
>>for a chance at a
>>&10,000 elk hunt! What
>>a shame!
>
>
>and you could put in for
>multiple hunt choices... SO you
>could even increase your odd
>even more


I know. Wasn't it great? Its called free enterprise.
I bought tons of tickets and ate ticket soup but was fine with helping out such an awesome place.
O i forgot we are all supposed to be equal! Distribute the wealth! Socialism!
Been waiting for jason to chime in. You must be loving this.
 
I think that the "rich" hunters should be excluded all together since they have more opportunities in general. How should we define rich? Say $50k per year?
 
I still cannot believe this is legit. It defies any reason.

We now have a raffle where everyone has terrible odds, and we make every effort possible for the raffle not to make money.

Meanwhile, the Valle Caldera gets an F- for marketing one of the best elk hunts in the country.

FUBAR
 
+1 Paul.
Why are the tickets not available yet? How many could be sold by marketing them as Christmas gifts? I know my kids would love them.
 
I looked all over and this is not a raffle it's a an Elk lottery just like the state one. If you win a prize in a raffle it is yours to do what you want this is not the case if you win one of these elk permits. You don't even get a choice if you draw a different tag. The current bonus point model hasn't seemed to work since the Valle still runs in the red.

Data shows the current system doesn't work.

Will the new system work don't know but it sure doesn't look like it will.

I think you can still buy 1 ticket per hunt that's 25% of the $400 some are paying.

I'm usually only in for $50 but this year I will be in for more than that cause I will throw my name in for the three bow hunts, Muzzle loader hunt and maybe the two rifle hunts.

Will this make up the difference probably not but at least I have the same odds as everyone else.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.
 
Maybe the Caldera is circling the drain right now. This could be the trusts way of bettering odds for the average Joe before the Caldera inevitably becomes a park with no hunting.

Needless to say, I have never put in for this hunt due to the low odds of drawing. Now I will as I feel I might have a better chance for a tag. It will be interesting to see the next 3-5 year ticket purchase numbers.
 
>Maybe the Caldera is circling the
>drain right now. This could
>be the trusts way of
>bettering odds for the average
>Joe before the Caldera inevitably
>becomes a park with no
>hunting.
>
>Needless to say, I have never
>put in for this hunt
>due to the low odds
>of drawing. Now I will
>as I feel I might
>have a better chance for
>a tag. It will be
>interesting to see the next
>3-5 year ticket purchase numbers.
>

Bedawg, I am guessing your odds will be much worse. Only thing is, that nobody will have better odds than you and you will spend very little to put in
 
3 to 5 years? Did they get an extension or what? I thought the VC as we know it will be turned over to the park service in 2015. I agree with gator. We need to stand up as a unified voice and say NO. Not only say no, but offer relevent solutions to the VC problem. Just saying, well that didn't work and simply turning it over to another agency for better results isn't the answer. It's government for cying out loud. Have they ever been in the black?
 
Paul what data do you have that your not sharing that our odds will get worse if everyone can only buy one chance. It definitely cuts the odds of the individuals, who by there own choice buy the max chances. A lot of people on this site post remarkable stories and Pictures of Oryx that are harvested on White Sands missile range, isn't it run by the government.

Does anyone know how the board of Directors gets appointed or elected?
 
Pnut, I do not have any data I am not sharing. I am making a guess.

They have now lowered the price of the tickets by about 20%. Even if they cannot sell enough to cover the dollars lost by capping the # of tickets, they may sell the same number or even more tickets since they are less expensive. Someone is betting on selling more tickets.
Thus if they sell more tickets, you have just as bad or worse odds to win. The only thing is that nobody has better odds that you win.

Where VC has really missed the boat is not marketing this hunt. They could offer a ticket every time someone applies for a elk tag in NM. They could do alot to sell tickets.

If they ever regain their revenue, I guarantee your odds are worse than before with one ticket.
 
Paul the only point I'm trying to make is that now the playing field is equal. It's just like any other hunt in New Mexico.

Do I agree with the idea no!!!!!!!!!

I'm guessing it's going to be a huge financial flop just like your are. At the end of the day I hope I have egg on my face.

This area is in my back yard and the odds are that I will never hunt it.

May be it's a cop out but "It is what it is" still the fairest draw in the west in my opinion.
 
>Paul the only point I'm trying
>to make is that now
>the playing field is equal.
> It's just like any
>other hunt in New Mexico.
>
>
>Do I agree with the idea
>no!!!!!!!!!
>
> I'm guessing it's going to
>be a huge financial
>flop just like your are.
> At the end
>of the day I hope
>I have egg on my
>face.
>
>This area is in my back
>yard and the odds are
>that I will never hunt
>it.
>
>May be it's a cop out
>but "It is what it
>is" still the fairest
>draw in the west in
>my opinion.


If you're looking to level the playing field, they need to get rid of the NR cap. Between the new one ticket limit and the NR cap, the NRs that helped support the VC program in the past are really going to get hosed.
 
Here is the problem.
If it does not make money it will not last. Nobody will be hunting it.

The problem with doing anything withing the confines of the government is that the system does not allow it.

What if these elk hunts were marketed? What if a couple hunts were auctioned off? So many things could have been tried.
 
Anyone notice that the new regs dont reflect the changes to the Caldera? Also wanted to ask if anyone knows where to find the data from previous years for the Caldera? Tickets sold per hunt code? Etc.
 
I just checked. The vcnp lottery page only allows purchase of one ticket per hunt code, dispite what the proclomation says.

Not to worry, this is standard govnt operation proceedures regarding operation of the left hand and right hand at the same time.

Give a man a little luck and anything will do for brains (Albert Soady).
 

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