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banggravy
Guest
Where is the cheapest place (wal-mart, gart sports, internet site etc.) to buy rifle ammunition?
RELH
Long Time Member
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walmart is very reasonable for a retail type store. For an internet site, MidwayUSA is about the cheapest I know of and they carry a very large extensive line of ammo and reloading & shooting gear. they also carry alot of gunsmithing items if that interests you.
RELH
RELH
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RIMROCK338
Guest
sometimes you can pick up real good deals on bulk ammo at gun shows..Cross Roads of the West...
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MrBaitnFish
Guest
Be careful what you buy at the gunshows. I had a bad experience with some .223 reloads I purchased from an ammo company out of California (Miwall) they are usually the largest ammo dealer at the crossroads shows. Anyway I bought a ammo can with 500 rounds of .223. Blew up a brand new Ruger mini 14 with it. Not only was the gun destroyed but so was the new 40 round mag and the new scope mounted on it as well. Ruger replaced the mini-14 but blamed the ammo, the ammo company blamed the gun, as usual. Also, the last 100 or so rounds in the bottom of the can was russian WOLF ammo.
Moral to the story, never trust anyone elses reloads. And be careful at gunshows.
Moral to the story, never trust anyone elses reloads. And be careful at gunshows.
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RIMROCK338
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-04 AT 09:34PM (MST)[p]wow,thats terrible! Did you pull any of the loads to see what
could have been wrong! I know it's hard to tell but maybe something would stick out. There are a group of use that has been
buying bulk at the gun shows for 15 years, Black Hills was one of
them we would buy, Never had any problems. Never trust anyone's reloads??
---WHY--- There are a few people that trust mine every year.
No complaints. Thanks for the heads up though on stuffing the
canister with junk, haven't seen that one.
Where did you say this company is from? CALIFORNIA....
could have been wrong! I know it's hard to tell but maybe something would stick out. There are a group of use that has been
buying bulk at the gun shows for 15 years, Black Hills was one of
them we would buy, Never had any problems. Never trust anyone's reloads??
---WHY--- There are a few people that trust mine every year.
No complaints. Thanks for the heads up though on stuffing the
canister with junk, haven't seen that one.
Where did you say this company is from? CALIFORNIA....
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GJM
Guest
Hey there baitnfish if you could could you go into more detail, curosity has me here wondering how that much damage could occur as I also shoot a mini 14 Ruger! thanks...Greg
RELH
Long Time Member
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- 17,483
I believe that Mr. Baitfish is trying to get across, do not USE anyone's reloads unless you know them very well and how well they pay attention to the details while reloading.
this also applys further then using cheap reloads from a gunshow. My sheriff's dept. bought though a supplier, low cost military 223 ammo that had been loaded in the Philippine Islands for use by their military. Most rounds would be ok, then you would get one that had a sharper report and a muzzle flash twice as big as the normal round. Checking the fired cases showed signs of very high preassure. We dumped the ammo before we had a rifle blow up. Needless to say, their quality control was very poor. Just because it is cheap, does not mean it is GOOD.
As for the Black Hills reloads, this ammo company has had a rep for loading very good quality ammo and I would not hesitate to use their ammo because they do have very good quality control on their products. Their ammo is damn good in the accuracy dept. also.
RELH
this also applys further then using cheap reloads from a gunshow. My sheriff's dept. bought though a supplier, low cost military 223 ammo that had been loaded in the Philippine Islands for use by their military. Most rounds would be ok, then you would get one that had a sharper report and a muzzle flash twice as big as the normal round. Checking the fired cases showed signs of very high preassure. We dumped the ammo before we had a rifle blow up. Needless to say, their quality control was very poor. Just because it is cheap, does not mean it is GOOD.
As for the Black Hills reloads, this ammo company has had a rep for loading very good quality ammo and I would not hesitate to use their ammo because they do have very good quality control on their products. Their ammo is damn good in the accuracy dept. also.
RELH
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GJM
Guest
Thought I smelled something fishy!...Greg
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MrBaitnFish
Guest
Let me begin by saying there is a difference in reloads. I shoot black hills quite a bit, and wouldn't worry about that stuff at all. It is loaded on modern equipment w/strict quality control. There's a difference between that and some average joe cranking out rounds on his dillon 550, it's easy to get a double charge if you're not paying attention. I reload all the time, there's other people who reload that I would trust, and there's people that I would never trust. I know a couple idiots who are always pushing pressures and going into the outer limits of safe reloading. They've also blown up more than one gun.
As far as the mini-14 that blew up. It was a new gun with no barrel obstruction. It showed the signs of overpressure, ruptured case, split stock. My father-in-law was the one who pulled the trigger when it went ka-boom, I was just standing next to him. There was no way to tell if it was a double charge because the powder was already burned up.
There has always been one suspicion I've had which would place fault at both the ammo and the gun. I believe the case might not have been sized properly, causing the bullet to not completely chamber and the gun firing out of battery. The reason I suspect an out of battery discharge is because the case head was lodged in the scope tube.
The reason I would blame the gun is because many autoloaders have a disconnect on the firing pin, so they cannot fire unless the breech is locked. I cannot see the case head ending up in the scope without it being out of battery, unless the pressure was great enough to blow the breech out which could be possible.
I also blame myself for trying to save a few bucks on ammo. Ruger was great, they replaced the gun, with a long letter saying "don't shoot remaining ammo". Cabela's wouldn't replace the scope, and I don't blame them it wasn't their fault. The Magazine was also trashed, which at the time was another $40. The ammo company, MIWALL said, it couldn't have been our ammo. So just be careful with what you put through your gun.
Hey Greg,
If you thought you smelled something fishy, sniff this!
As far as the mini-14 that blew up. It was a new gun with no barrel obstruction. It showed the signs of overpressure, ruptured case, split stock. My father-in-law was the one who pulled the trigger when it went ka-boom, I was just standing next to him. There was no way to tell if it was a double charge because the powder was already burned up.
There has always been one suspicion I've had which would place fault at both the ammo and the gun. I believe the case might not have been sized properly, causing the bullet to not completely chamber and the gun firing out of battery. The reason I suspect an out of battery discharge is because the case head was lodged in the scope tube.
The reason I would blame the gun is because many autoloaders have a disconnect on the firing pin, so they cannot fire unless the breech is locked. I cannot see the case head ending up in the scope without it being out of battery, unless the pressure was great enough to blow the breech out which could be possible.
I also blame myself for trying to save a few bucks on ammo. Ruger was great, they replaced the gun, with a long letter saying "don't shoot remaining ammo". Cabela's wouldn't replace the scope, and I don't blame them it wasn't their fault. The Magazine was also trashed, which at the time was another $40. The ammo company, MIWALL said, it couldn't have been our ammo. So just be careful with what you put through your gun.
Hey Greg,
If you thought you smelled something fishy, sniff this!
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RIMROCK338
Guest
Well OK.. If you can trust some reloads I'll swaller that.
We build a few wildcats
and yes we are extremely careful.No loading for these guys
out in the chicken coupe.So when you loaded your minie 14 with 40
rounds OR if you do, what ammo do you use now? I had a couple
AR15 and it seemed like when ever I would let anyone shoot it they would just see how fast they could empty it.I don't blame them I did it too.
For bulk pistol ammo I like Gallensons they sale speer at not too bad of a price.
Come to think of it I have had more misfires with factory ammo
than any thing. One time 5 out of twenty 25-06 Rems. Dented primer but no bang. Well I hope I didn't lead the gent down the wrong path with the Gun show thing.Just know that it was ok for me.
We build a few wildcats
and yes we are extremely careful.No loading for these guys
out in the chicken coupe.So when you loaded your minie 14 with 40
rounds OR if you do, what ammo do you use now? I had a couple
AR15 and it seemed like when ever I would let anyone shoot it they would just see how fast they could empty it.I don't blame them I did it too.
For bulk pistol ammo I like Gallensons they sale speer at not too bad of a price.
Come to think of it I have had more misfires with factory ammo
than any thing. One time 5 out of twenty 25-06 Rems. Dented primer but no bang. Well I hope I didn't lead the gent down the wrong path with the Gun show thing.Just know that it was ok for me.
RELH
Long Time Member
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- 17,483
The case not being fully resized could cause the out of battery condition, also a high primer can do that on a semi auto that has a very tight chamber dimensions. High primers can also cause a slam fire out of battery.
Baitfish, do not worry about Jeff smelling anything fishy, he must have raised his own arms when he detected the odor. In other words Jeff, you were out of line saying that something was fishy without having more information.
RELH
Baitfish, do not worry about Jeff smelling anything fishy, he must have raised his own arms when he detected the odor. In other words Jeff, you were out of line saying that something was fishy without having more information.
RELH
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GJM
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-04 AT 01:39AM (MST)[p]Jeff??? too fuggin funny, my name is Greg I call this bullshit!!~!!!!!!, the whole story stinks and I am not buying it! There is no way that gun could blow like that, with the damage done whomever was holding that peice would of had major face or bodily damage, from now on if you have a story to share make sure it's legit guys, go back and read your posts, you contradict each other and then try to pad each others backs, after reading alot of your prior posts, RELH, least I didn't call you Fred Jack Slim Pete Joe ##### or Fish,my name is Greg i'm 46 yrs old and been reloading since I was 7 and watching my father way before that,I enjoyed your input on alot of things regarding shooting, wouldn't give you two cents for your comments from here on out,I have alot of other things that I could refer to about your personal attacks but I'll let you 2 perform as i'm sure you will come back with some more of your bovine scatoligy, fire away boys I got my hip waders on!...Greg <not out of line> the post 2 above this has his doubts also but was very polite about it don't, apologise RR you smell it also that's way I read your post, I mite be wrong but I think not.
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MrBaitnFish
Guest
Greg, this did happen. I could give a $hit less if you believe it or not. His face did get peppered but he was wearing glasses. I still have the letter from Ruger and a useless scope with a hole in the bottom of the tube as a reminder. If you think this stuff doesn't happen you haven't been around it nearly as much as you think. I don't know why you seem to be taking it personally. I'm just sharing a bad experience with reloads. Do I blame all reloads, no. I do a lot of loading myself, including wildcats. Not all people take the same care in reloading, especially if they're mass-producing ammo for sale at gun shows.
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RIMROCK338
Guest
Greg
Well when they were talking reload problems on the minie14
I ruled out double charge of powder,almost all powders that I use
in 223 cases are at 80% or higher.What I thought was in the heat of rapid fire a shell got chamberd with no powder and the primer
pushed the bullet into the barrel.the next round came up and went off causing the blow up.I don't know alot about semi autos
so I don't have much ground to stand on. BUT when someone calls
bullshit on me with something I'm 100% sure of I'll get them up on the ropes,dig there eyes out and skull f'em for all it's worth.Other than that I'm just a good ole nice guy!
P.S. Would a minie cycle if just a primer charge went off?
I'm learning!
Well when they were talking reload problems on the minie14
I ruled out double charge of powder,almost all powders that I use
in 223 cases are at 80% or higher.What I thought was in the heat of rapid fire a shell got chamberd with no powder and the primer
pushed the bullet into the barrel.the next round came up and went off causing the blow up.I don't know alot about semi autos
so I don't have much ground to stand on. BUT when someone calls
bullshit on me with something I'm 100% sure of I'll get them up on the ropes,dig there eyes out and skull f'em for all it's worth.Other than that I'm just a good ole nice guy!
P.S. Would a minie cycle if just a primer charge went off?
I'm learning!
RELH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 17,483
Greg;
Do you think for one second that I care about any of your opions after I witness you calling a man a liar just because you have a personal opion that it could not have happen as he said.
You need to wake up and smell the coffe, but I do not plan to hold my breath waiting. I have seen at lease 4-5 semi and full auto guns blow up and two bolt action rifles. Except for one bolt action rifle, all the rest were done while using reloads. The one using factory ammo was the result of a idiot putting a 7mm Mauser shell into a 7mm mag and firing it causing a rupured case that welded the bolt to the receiver. but then again, you probably do not believe that either.
Just because you have been reloading for numerous years, does not make you the expert to allow you the right to call another person a liar because you have not seen it for yourself.
I have reloaded over 50,000 rounds in my lifetime, most of it while shooting competion at 2,000 rounds per month for two years, and I still am learning new things everyday. I apologize for getting your name wrong, but I do not apologize for what I told you.
RimRock338;
No, a primer detonation is not powerful enought to work the cycle of a semi-auto, you would have to jack out the round by hand, which would indicate that it is time to check for a lodged bullet in the barrel.
RELH
Do you think for one second that I care about any of your opions after I witness you calling a man a liar just because you have a personal opion that it could not have happen as he said.
You need to wake up and smell the coffe, but I do not plan to hold my breath waiting. I have seen at lease 4-5 semi and full auto guns blow up and two bolt action rifles. Except for one bolt action rifle, all the rest were done while using reloads. The one using factory ammo was the result of a idiot putting a 7mm Mauser shell into a 7mm mag and firing it causing a rupured case that welded the bolt to the receiver. but then again, you probably do not believe that either.
Just because you have been reloading for numerous years, does not make you the expert to allow you the right to call another person a liar because you have not seen it for yourself.
I have reloaded over 50,000 rounds in my lifetime, most of it while shooting competion at 2,000 rounds per month for two years, and I still am learning new things everyday. I apologize for getting your name wrong, but I do not apologize for what I told you.
RimRock338;
No, a primer detonation is not powerful enought to work the cycle of a semi-auto, you would have to jack out the round by hand, which would indicate that it is time to check for a lodged bullet in the barrel.
RELH
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GJM
Guest
Enough said! Happy New Yr guys, tap er light!...Greg
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MrBaitnFish
Guest
Amen, nothing causes flinching worse than wondering if your gun is gonna ka-boom.
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RLH
Guest
cheap ammo? in the last cabela's catalog there are some old timey tin signs you can order. like the old winchester and peters signs. one is for some kinda sedative for gunshy dogs. says it's "from our labs to your labs". has a picture of a black lab smokin' a pipe next to a dude with a shotgun. the other one is for "Lester Ammunition" says it is the "cheapest in the world" shows a picture of a grizzly with what's left of a shirt hangin' out of it's mouth and a rifle layin' next to it. under the picture is says "it works most of the time".
RELH
Long Time Member
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- 17,483
Damn! that one about Lester ammo made me laught my head off. I'm going to have to find that tin sign and buy it to hang up in the reloading room. When my oldest son sees that, he will quit using my reloads for sure. One way to make him start reloading his own.
RELH
RELH
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RLH
Guest
relh, i saw it in one of the last cabelas xmas catalogs. they've sent us so many in the past 6 weeks that it's hard to keep em straight. when i first saw it i thought it was just another old timey lookin' tin sign. i laughed too. the about the sedative for gunshy dogs was pretty funny too.
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rost495
Guest
Personally I'd have pulled the bullets and weighed the powder on the remaining cases of reloads just to see if there was anything else out of line before trashing them.
As to a bullet stuck in the bore, that may split a barrel, but I've seen some wild examples fired like that and did not destroy the gun.
A ruger having a tight chamber would be about the last thing I'd expect to see so i'd almost rule that out.
I would totally agree one it firing out of battery though. I'd almost bet that happened. Whether the result of a high sensitive primer as the bolt was about to close, or the bolt closed just far enough to fire but not locked. Doubt you could ever tell.
There are a few other things. If somehow a round got a dose of fast burning powder. I bet the odds are low on that. But how dirty or shiny was the ammo? An aquaintence bought dinged and grungy 223 LC ammo cheap years ago. In an effort to make it totallly functional at our matches he decided to tumble the loaded ammo for a long time. Along the way he popped one round off and moved the tumbler outside. Then continued tumbling for a long time till the ammo was pretty clean and slick. This "home local good old boy gunsmith" never thought about how powder is made, how size of granules and outer deterent coatings can affect the burn rate. End result in a match was an AR upper swelled really bad, bolt had most lugs blown off, mag blown out, never found dust cover, and probably other things I don't recall. I know the barrel was used on another upper later and seemed to look and shoot fine. So we assume???? no bore obstruction. Nothing would have indicated a bloop round prior either. And it was 1/3 of the way into the match so previous rounds were fired. Though they said they seemed awful warm.
I suspect the burn rate of that powder was changed enough by "innocently stupid" excessive tumbling. Of course I've been known to be wrong.
Jeff(non stinky arm pits)
As to a bullet stuck in the bore, that may split a barrel, but I've seen some wild examples fired like that and did not destroy the gun.
A ruger having a tight chamber would be about the last thing I'd expect to see so i'd almost rule that out.
I would totally agree one it firing out of battery though. I'd almost bet that happened. Whether the result of a high sensitive primer as the bolt was about to close, or the bolt closed just far enough to fire but not locked. Doubt you could ever tell.
There are a few other things. If somehow a round got a dose of fast burning powder. I bet the odds are low on that. But how dirty or shiny was the ammo? An aquaintence bought dinged and grungy 223 LC ammo cheap years ago. In an effort to make it totallly functional at our matches he decided to tumble the loaded ammo for a long time. Along the way he popped one round off and moved the tumbler outside. Then continued tumbling for a long time till the ammo was pretty clean and slick. This "home local good old boy gunsmith" never thought about how powder is made, how size of granules and outer deterent coatings can affect the burn rate. End result in a match was an AR upper swelled really bad, bolt had most lugs blown off, mag blown out, never found dust cover, and probably other things I don't recall. I know the barrel was used on another upper later and seemed to look and shoot fine. So we assume???? no bore obstruction. Nothing would have indicated a bloop round prior either. And it was 1/3 of the way into the match so previous rounds were fired. Though they said they seemed awful warm.
I suspect the burn rate of that powder was changed enough by "innocently stupid" excessive tumbling. Of course I've been known to be wrong.
Jeff(non stinky arm pits)
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MrBaitnFish
Guest
Rost, I've heard of people tumbling loaded ammo which caused the powder granules to break up, changing the burn rate and causing ka-booms. I have a tumbler, but I'm not dumb enough to tumble fully loaded ammo. Just empty brass only. I agree that I doubt the chamber was tight. Most semi-autos have chambers that are way over minimum SAAMI specs. Working in gunstores I've seen some funny things come from the factory though. I never did pull the bullets but I still have the remaining ammo, maybe I'll pull a few and weigh them.
The ammo was bright and shiny like new. The cases all show the marks of annealling. This happened about three years ago. I doubt I'll ever know what caused it for sure. All you can do is minimize mistakes and hope for the best. And don't buy junk ammo.
The ammo was bright and shiny like new. The cases all show the marks of annealling. This happened about three years ago. I doubt I'll ever know what caused it for sure. All you can do is minimize mistakes and hope for the best. And don't buy junk ammo.
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Hornseeker
Guest
BANGGRAVY!!! Is that really your screen name? Its not implying what it sounds like is it?
