Clearex or 777?

[BeanMan]

I'm going to be doing some shooting and tuning this weekend. I thought I'll give one of the new powders a try, are there any strong opinions out there about using either Goex Clearshot or Triple 7?

The rifle is a Thompson Center Hawken in .54 and I'm going to try the powerbelt bullets out too.

Thanks,

BeanMan

 

[Horniac]

I have seen some good reviews on the Triple 7 in some of the hunting magazines. I know there was a previous post on this forum and BlueElk replied that there was inconsistency and ignition problems with the Triple 7. His testing indicated that in his opinion (which I for one value very highly) the Goex Clear shot is the way to go.

I just bought a new 50 caliber Remington that I am going to be developing loads for. Both the Clear Shot and the Triple 7 are supposed to clean-up with just water due to their lack of sulfur so I am going to try them both hoping that Hodgson has worked the bugs out of the Triple 7 by now.

The literature that came with the Triple 7 gives the following comparison data for a test conducted 10/16/01 with 100 grains pushing a 50/45 gr Spr. HP/MMP Black 50 Cal. Sabot;

Triple 7 FFG - 1811 FPS average
Pyrodex RS - 1730 FPS average
Clean Shot FFG - 1715 FPS average
Clear Shot FFG - 1520 FPS average
Goex Black FFG - 1619 FPS average

From these figures, it would appear that the Triple 7 is superior (by almost 300 FPS) to the Clear Shot, all else being equal and assuming the problems with ignition and reliability were cured, though I know this is just the manufacturer's claimed velocity. I know BlueElk did some testing with the Clear Shot and I am wondering how his data compares and if the noted problems were now cured if he would recommend the Triple 7 over the Clear Shot due to the higher velocities.

 

[BeanMan]

Horniac,

Thanks for the reply, I've read most of the stuff on this forum and was hoping for a bit more about 777. I got the ballistics test's that Bluelk did for Clearex and was wondering more about 777. Thanks Bluelk for your efforts with Clearex.

I have been shooting pyrodex but don't care much for the cleaning aspects...

BeanMan

 

[bluelk]

Horniac and BeanMan: From conversations that I have had since I came back I would recommend that you take a serious look at the 777. A very good friend of mine who's opinion I trust implicitly says that he has just completed some ballistics tests and he said that the 777 was excellent. One comment that he made was that you drop down about 10-20 grains with the 777 from what you normally load and work your load from there. He uses a chrony exclusively when working a load and he said that he is getting almost exactly the same bullet velocity with the reduction of 10-20 grains of the 777 as he was with the Clear Shot.

I'm not going to have the time for the next couple months to do any ballistics testing, but I would go with what he says.

He also says that the cleaning issue is much, much better with both the 777 and the Clear Shot.

 

[BeanMan]

Thanks Bluelk and welcome back. I have the next 4 days off to play with loads, Yahoo.

BeanMan

 

[Horniac]

Welcome back BlueElk!

Thanks for the info on the 777.

Question: If your gun is rated for say 120 grains maximum, can you use 120 grains of 777 if the equivalent pyrodex load would be 130 grains to 140 grains based on the data you got from your friend? In other words, what powder does the gun manufacturer base it on when determining the maximum loading for their muzzleloader?

Thanks.

 

[bluelk]

Horniac: They base it on a load comprised of either straight blackpowder or regular Pyrodex. If you are going to use 777 cut your charge by 15-20%. Now remember, cut by volume because that is how you measured in the first place. Example: If you shot 100 grains of blackpowder or regular Pyrodex, then shoot 80-85 grains of 777. Got it? Also, if you are shooting an inline 777 will cake up your breech plug. Don't try to scrape it off. Wash it off with water. My friend says that it almost dissolves in water.

 

[Horniac]

Bluelk:

I was trying to develop a load for my new Remington using 120 grains by volume of 777. My theory was to that if I could get any sabots to group well using the maximum load that the gun would handle then I would get the maximum velocity and the flattest trajectory.

I tried Nosler partitions, powerbelts, and Barnes MZ's of different weights but did not get very good groups with any.

I did experience a major problem with my Remington (please see my "Safety Problem with Remington" on the top of page 2 which now leads me to believe that by using the 120G of 777 I may have been over the recommended load for this gun which may have led to the problem. I just read the literature again and see that they recommend reducing the powder charge by volume over conventional blackpowder by 15% to get the same velocity but it would seem that breech pressure, not velocity would be utilzied to formulate the recommended maximum charge in a muzzleloader.

Thanks for your help.

 

[wmidbrook]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-14-02 AT 01:00PM (MST)[p]My remington 700 MLS can take up to 150 grains of Pyrodex or BP or 127.5 grains of triple 7 (85% of 150 grains). My groups started opening up over 120 grains of 777 with 2 different types of bullets tried so far. So, I'm a ways off from max loads. My rifle seems to really like triple 7 and since it makes cleaning a lot easier, I'm just going to stick with it.

The remington inlines do require that extra step of cleaning up the bolt which is more time-consuming than some other brands of muzzleloaders I've owned. Mine came with a nice cleaning rod guide which is nice for keeping the breech plug threads clean--that makes for extra cleaning step a bit.

 

[Horniac]

Wmidbrook:

I have last year's Remington and mine is only rated to 120 grains.

It is in the shop right now getting the safety/trigger repaired. I will try it with a little less 777 powder (100 grains) and see how it shoots. I was getting lots of fouling in the breech plug area though I did put quite a few rounds through it. Even with the 777, it still takes me a good hour to clean my muzzleloader.

 

[bluelk]

Horniac: You're overshooting your barrel. Back off on the powder charge about 15%. Do you have a chronograph? If you do, I will bet that you get the same velocity with 15% less 777 than whatever powder you were using before.

 

[Gator]

I have been using 777 100gr. and 400 gr T/C and 300 gr Hornady they both group good for me, With the 300's a little tighter. I have try 180's 240's 348 and 295. The heavier bullets work better for me right now Next year off-season I will try and get the 180's to group better, I just think they are the ones to shoot, But I'm running out of time this year to do more so I'm sticking with the ones that are grouping now.I'm shoting a stainless Omega 50.

 

[bluelk]

Gator: You shooting ffg 777 or fffg?

 

[SUPERUNKNOWN16]

What if you are using 150grains of Pyrodex pellets, how much 777 would you use in its place? 15% less or 20%?

 

[bluelk]

I'd start at 20% less, see what my groups are, and if they're okay I'd leave it at that. If you think you can tighten them up with 15% less then go for it. Use the amount that gives you the tightest group.

 

[Gator]

fffg I have been getting really nice groups with it, We have tried 180 and up the gun and the powder seems to like the heavy sabot better, But I really want to shoot the 180's Right now the 3oo's have the vote for hunting they have been grouping the best out of both guns.1 lb of 777 here go from $20.99 to $26.99 use to buy it at $17.99 3 week ago.

 

[bluelk]

Gator: That is called supply and demand! I am going to do some testing later this week and see what kind of performance I get with that 777. I keep hearing good things about it, but I'm going to check it for myself. Good luck this year.

 

[Horniac]

Bluelk:

I am still confused over the maximum powder charge for Pyrodex v. 777. Please read BigTom's post titled "Point of Diminishing Returns?". In his post, if I read it right it says that the Hodgson guy told him you could use 150 grains of 777 if your gun was rated for 150 grains. If this is not the case, it seems like they should put some kind of warning on the can of 777 if you are actually supposed to shoot 15% to 20% less.

Thanks for your help.

 

[bluelk]

Horniac: They post it all over their website. Let's end the confusion: when using 777 reduce your powder load by 15%. Period. End of confusion.

 

[azbiggame]

BLAKE:Just put 100 grns. by Volume of Triple 7 down the Muzzle,and top it off with a 250 grn. Nosler, .45 cal H.P. Those Unit 115,"Muleys" won't stand a chance.Found this load this past weekend,also tried 260 grn. Speers and 300grn. Barnes X,but by far the "Nosler" shot the best groups.The more powder I tried,110,120,130 and so on the "wider" the group got.Now that "WE'VE" solved that problem,I'm off this weekend to Unit 231,to "Look around"---

 

[Horniac]

Bluelk:

Alright, you've convinced me - if I ever get my Remington back from the shop I will cut my 777 loading back to 100 grains and try again.

Azbiggame:

Glad to see you developed a new load for your Knight with the stuff. I'm getting excellent groups in my 54 caliber Knight MK85 using 120 grains of pyrodex pellets and the Barnes MZ 275 grain sabot. I hate to change my "lucky" load as it did the trick last year in 231. I'm thinking about it though since it is less corrosive than Pyrodex and it may be mighty wet in November. Then again, I have lots of pyrodex to use up - hate to have it go to waste.

Good luck on your scouting trip. I'll be over that way the following week - I am looking forward to doing some scouting myself.

Later,

Horniac