CO muzzy help

[lostinOregon]

Read as much as I can about the CO rules. I am new to MZ hunting so it still is a bit confusing. I have a Knight 50 cal Bighorn. I will be using 209 primers but after that I am open to suggestions.

What primer, powder and bullet do you recommend for deer?

I am confused on what powders are legal. I want o buy a few different brands of primers, bullets and powder and see what type of accuracy I can get.

Also read quite a bit about sights. Looking at peep sites, what are your thoughts for the bighorn.

As always, thanks for your advice,

Rich

 

[Waygoner]

Hey Rich,

I've been muzzy hunting for about 5 years now and I really enjoy it. I've only been elk hunting and have yet to take down my 1st animal, so I'm far from an expert.

I'm using the 209 primers and just switched to Blackhorn 209 powder. It's supposed to burn cleaner. I have some new Hornady FPB bullets to try out - 350 grain. I shoot a .50 cal CVA Optima, fiber optic sights. I've been shooting 777 powder and Powerbelts with good accuracy. 100 yards is my max and that has to be ideal conditions.

You must use loose powder, no pellets. Not sure about peeps, but a guy I hunt with has one on his Hawken and it works for him.

Did you hunt around Gunnison last year? How did it turn out?

 

[LaGriz55]

lostinOregon,
I too have a Knight Bighorn in .50 cal. I have killed a cow elk with it useing powerbelt bullets and tripple 7 loose powder.
I did not like the accuracy much but being it was open sights only, I figured I could live with it. With a 250 gr. shockwave sabot it's a tack driver. I would look into some White bullets.
I would also recomend the buckhorn 209 powder for your pet load.
Have never tried the powerbelts with the arrow tip or the new controled-expantion models that should have better performance.

My 45 yd. shot on the cow (through the ribs) did not exit. a second shot was needed at 15 ft. and it also failed to exit. The peep sight should be legal as it has no magnification.

good luck with your hunt for the perfect load!
Post or PM me if you can find a good result.

LaGriz

 

[lostinOregon]

Todd, I did hunt CO last year and did very well, but not in the basin. I took a buck and a bull last year in your fine state.

I wasn't sure of the 777 being legal. My wife has started hunting so I get to go hunting twice for deer now in CO. We both will be hunting over by Delta. It is getting harder and harder to find tags for the basin. I will be there next year 67 2nd next year with my dad.

Does it matter which 209s you use, seems like everyone has their favorite?

LarGriz, seems folks are mixed on the power belts. I ill look into the white bullets.

Thanks,

Rich

 

[diablo]

Try the Blackhorn 209 powder - it's by far my favorite after muzzy hunting for about 35 years. Any good 209 primer will work - just don't mix brands. As for a conical - you might try the new ones from Federal - they will supposedly be legal in CO this year:

http://www.americanhunter.org/blogs/federal-premium-trophy-copper-bor-lock-muzzleloader-bullet
__________________________________
There are two kinds of people without
beards - boys and women. I am neither.

 

[txhunter58]

As much as I like BH 209 powder, I don't think it is safe to use in a bighorn.

That leaves you with real black, pyrodex or 777.

I like 777 the best. ffg would work well for you.

If you use 777, then you will want to use the reduced power 209s. Otherwise you get too much ignition in the breech and it forms a "crud ring" that makes it hard to clean or load subsequent bullets.

Hornady FPBs shoot well from my knight, but you have to start them with a short starter. 460 gr No Excuse bullets are good as well, but you have to lower the powder charge with bullets so big. With a 300-350 gr of bullet, I would start at about 90 gr shoot 3, 95 gr, shoot 3, 100, etc. From 90 to maybe 110 and see what shoots well. Anything over 90 gr will be plenty of power to kill an elk. With 460 gr bullets, I would start at around 80 and go up to 100 gr max powder

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[CWeeks]

I followed txhunter and others advise and ended up with 85gr of Blackhorn 209 pushing Hornady FPB 350s in my Knight Disc with good results. I mounted a scope on mine to work up my load and then changed over to Williams FS peep sight and an XS patridge white front post sight. Only shot one day with the open sights so far, but was very impressed out to 100yds, gonna try to extend that out to 150yds over the next few weeks. This will be my first muzz hunt in Co, so I was starting from the beginning like you, but I was fairly sure I would draw, so I've been working on it since spring.

 

[txhunter58]

I like a rear Williams peep sights and a small fiberoptic front sight. I use what is called the 6 o'clock hold. That is where you put the top of the front sight on the bottom of the bullseye. That way you can be slightly more precise in your aiming.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[born_2_hunt]

Hey TXhunter, what load did you get to work out of your Omega with the QLA cut off? I had mine removed because I was having serious accuracy issues. I tried the No Excuses 460's and cant get them to be consistent at all. The FPB's wont even load now without some serious effort. I wont use powerbelts. Kind of at a stand still with it.

 

[txhunter58]

I have never actually worked up a hunting load since I cut it off. That was about the time I bought my Knight LRH and now I have a White.

As I recall, maxi-balls shot pretty well. Also, I am currently using the bullshop 460 gr in 0.504. Haven't used them in my Omega, but the tighter fit might help. Also, I am putting a fiber wad between the powder and bullet.

Also, lower velocities seem to help. For bigger bullets I think I was using 85-90 gr of BH 209.

You are right about the FPBs being a bear to load after removing the QLA. I had to run them through the barrel at the house to get them presized for the range. Then they would load easy for the range or on a hunt

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[alinrut]

I shoot the CVA Accura, I STARTED MUZZY HUNTING 3 years ago. My first year I took everyones advice and used Blackhorn 209...I went to the range and zeroed in. About every 3rd shot I would get pop no bang and would chalk it up as my inexperience and inability to pack the powder tightly. That 1st year I had a bull at about 40 yrds, put sights on him and pulled trigger, pop fizz no bang and big bull saunters off!!! Chalked it up as maybe wet powder (it had rained)... last year, stepped off the plane, bought a fresh thing of BH 209 and went to the range... 1st shot, pop fizz nuthin (im getting pissed, 2nd shot pop little bang...and poured powder out the front of ba% el and found my round partially imbedded int the plywood (it didnt even go thru)... I switched to pyrodex... but now Ive learned that when shooting shooting BH 209 with CVA you need to purchase a special breech plug...Im willing to give it a try this year and see what it does....

Long story, but bottom line...Make sure you get the breech plug....feel free to correct me if Im wrong gentlemen....but I am convinced and willing to give another try

Good luck have fun and be safe out there....

 

[txhunter58]

you will be VERY glad you gave it another chance. Two things:

1) Get the correct breech plug

2) Get you a drillbit that fits into the rear pocker where the 209 primer goes. Hold the bit with your hand and turn the breechplug until you remove the carbon build-up in the rear channel. That build-up causes more hang fires than any other thing. Here is a link on the BH209 site that shows you what I mean:

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/breech-plug-cleaning/

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[txhunter58]

But unless someone knows something I don't, you can't use BH 209 in a Knight bighorn

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[jd332001]

same thing happened to me alinrut on the hang fires and no ignition at all with the bh 209!!! kinda scary when you have that second long pause then the bullet comes out or a complete miss fire. asked my buddy who uses it and you can just use a drill bit and open up the hole a little. i shoot an omega and i will be going to the range again and let you know how it goes.

i use to us hornady fpb bullets as well but you damn near needed a hammer to get em down a clean barrel. trying the new powerbelt platinum bullets. shot a couple and they are waaaay smoother going down a clean barrel. now just hope they group well. good luck all!!! muzzy is the funnest time of the year to be chasing deer and elk.

 

[yeff2]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-14 AT 05:19PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-14 AT 05:18?PM (MST)

lostinOregon,

I have been hunting the Muzzle loader since 2007 and every two years since for elk in Colorado. In 2007 I had a bull I dropped at 90 yards he got away after being down for about 10 minutes. I never found him. I looked the entire next day for him, still pisses me off to this day. At that time I was using 50 cal, 270 grain platinum power belts with 120 grains of 777 powder and cci primers. After that year I switched to 338 grain platinum power belt bullets. My load for the 777 powder is at max (120 grains) for what I've looked at for the charts and seems to perform well it kicks like a mule but I figure if the shot is placed like need be I can handle the kick. My last two muzzle loader hunts were with the 338 grain bullets and 777 max powder loads and they performed well. Both bulls I have shot only traveled 50 yards after the shot. One of the bulls I hit a little back but he still only managed the 50 yards. I here all the chat and I used what my brother showed me as he hunted with a muzzle loader before me. I have never had a misfire while hunting or practice. I'm not sure what people do but I do slightly lube my bullet with bore butter before inserting as to help lube and push the bullet in and it does form a small seal in there between bullet and barrel wall to keep moisture out. Both times I've hunted in rain I shot it the next day and it fired. Anyhow that's my two cents if it helps. Good Luck!

Jeff

 

[lostinOregon]

So I have been looking around and I am thinking of buying a new loader instead of going with the bighorn. If you could buy one for Colorado Muzzy hunts only, what would you do?

Rich

 

[yeff2]

You should take a look at the Thompson Center loaders. I have the Triumph and with the speed breech it just makes taking them apart and cleaning a breeze. Reliable loader, stainless steel barrel and not a bad setup for $450.

 

[txhunter58]

Personally I would stay away from any Thompson center guns that have the QLA (false muzzle). The Triumph is one of those guns. A substantial amount of them have the bore and the QLA cut on different centers. That doesn't make any difference for sabots, but with Conicals (all Colorado allows you to shoot) that can be bad. Yes, if you are lucky, they will shoot OK, but there are many that will not. Mine shot 5-8 inch groups AT 25 years! Sent the gun in to them and they said the barrel was fine, that I should shoot sabots!

That guarantee accuracy in their guns WITH SABOTS ONLY. Call them and ask about shooting conicals and see what they say. They will tell you they build sabot guns

As far as what gun to get, you could get a different Knight (LRH, mountaineer) that can be set up for BH 209. Also the newer CVA guns (accura or optima) have good track records.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[txhunter58]

Here is an email conversation I had with T/C:



Subject: Encore or Triumph for Colorado
Am considering buying a Encore or Triumph, but I only hunt in Colorado so I have to use conicals. Currently use my T/C renegade which does well, but want to buy an inline and like the design/covered breech of these rifles. However, I have heard that there may be a problem with shooting conicals from these guns. Do you guarantee accuracy with conicals in the Encore and Triumph?

Subject: Encore or Triumph for Colorado

Dear Customer,

Thank you for contacting us.

No we do not. Their twist rates are made for sabots.

Sincerely,

Rachel Turgeon




This message, including all attachments: (i) May contain technical data as defined in the International Traffic In Arms Regulations (ITAR) 22 CFR 120.10. Export of this material is restricted by the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751 et seq.) and may not be exported or transferred to non-U.S. persons without prior written approval from the U.S. Department of State; and (ii) Is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this communication in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. Thank you.


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-14 AT 05:58AM (MST)[p]Yea right, the twist rate is too fast (at 1 in 28). Read my post about the accuracy in my White which has a 1 in 24 twist.

That is what gripes me most about the situation. They admit that they won't reliably shoot conicals, but won't admit the real reason (the QLA)

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[tx_packmule]

>So I have been looking around
>and I am thinking of
>buying a new loader instead
>of going with the bighorn.
>If you could buy one
>for Colorado Muzzy hunts only,
>what would you do?
>
>Rich

Not much of a Muzzy guy, but from what I'm seeing, Parker Productions uses that bighorn (along with a cpl other rifles) to load test their Hydra-Con bullets. Might get some info out of them on a CO legal load.

 

[Cow Tag]

Hunters, seeking a little knowledge and advice. Texas Hunters says his White rifle has a twist of 1:24 in its barrel and some of the TC rifles have 1:28 twist rate. The smaller the number of 'twist' means that the bullet will be spun FASTER as it makes it way through the barrel. Isn't this correct? Would the TC rifles improve their accuracy with conical bullets if their barrels had MORE twist? Also, how do you know if your rifle has a False QLA? I have a TC Encore that is about six or 8 years old and has a 1:28 twist in its barrel: does it have a QLA at the end of its barrel?

 

[Canvsbk]

I bought a rifle specifically for Colorado elk. After quite a bit of research, knowing I was going to be shooting conicals and Blackhorn I bought a CVA Accurra v2. My brother did the same. Both of us shoot 1 1/2" groups @ 100 yards with 300 grain Thors and 110 grains of Blackhorn with either federal 209a or CCI 209m primer.
I am quite pleased with the whole setup.
I have no other muzzle loaders to campare it to.




Semper Fi

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-18-14 AT 03:14PM (MST)[p]T/C claims their twist rate (1:28) is TOO FAST for conicals. My white has an ever faster twist rate, so that blows their "claim" out of the water.

Bottom line is that T/C doesn't want to admit it is the QLA that makes some of their guns unsuitable for conicals, not the twist. I also have a Knight LRH gun that is a 1:28 and it shoots conicals fine.

1:28 means that the bullet makes one revolution in 28", so the lower the number, the faster the twist.

And yes, your Encore has a QLA. Look at the end of the barrel. You will not see rifling for almost an inch inside the barrel. That is why you can just drop most bullets into the end of the barrel before you have to get them started.

However not all Encores have the "QLA problem". Some were cut properly and they will shoot conicals well. My brothers Omega shoot conicals just fine. And even mine shot SOME conicals pretty well. Powerbelts, Hornady FPBs, and Thors shot pretty well with an occasional flier. I think that is because the rear "bell" on these bullets didn't allow the gasses to escape around the bullet when entering the QLA.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Aaronjhanson]

1:28 twist means 1 twist in 28"
1:24 twist means 1 twist in 24"
1:24 twist has more twist than 1:28

hope that makes sense




https://www.aaronjhansonknives.com

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-18-14 AT 03:18PM (MST)[p]>I bought a rifle specifically for
>Colorado elk. After quite a
>bit of research, knowing I
>was going to be shooting
>conicals and Blackhorn I bought
>a CVA Accurra v2. My
>brother did the same. Both
>of us shoot 1 1/2"
>groups @ 100 yards with
>300 grain Thors and 110
>grains of Blackhorn with either
>federal 209a or CCI 209m
>primer.
>I am quite pleased with the
>whole setup.
>I have no other muzzle loaders
>to campare it to.
>
>
>
>
>Semper Fi

That is a great set up and load. That will take down anything walking in the lower 48 with room to spare!

And the Accura has a 1:28 twist too


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[COLOelkman]

Not sure I'd give up completely on your Knight as they typically can shoot well with conicals. I had a Knight Revolution and shot 90-95 gr of 777 with the 370 gr. TC maxiballs and could shoot about a 2-3 inch group at 100 yds and felt comfortable out to about 150. As for sights, I think a peep style sight can provide better accuracy than a rear "v" type sight, at least for my eyes.
If you do some internet searches, you may find that many knowledgeable people say a White muzzleloader would be tops on their list for accuracy with conical bullets.
I have bought several Whites and plan to see a few of them soon as I think I went overboard and bought more than I had time for. If interested, PM me and I let you know more.

 

[jd332001]

have you tried thor yet? was having same problem and ordered a sizing pack from thor as the Hornady FPB bullets were way too hard to push. Tried their sizes and ordered 50 bullets and went and shot. Way better accuracy and not near as hard to push.

 

[txhunter58]

>have you tried thor yet?
>was having same problem and
>ordered a sizing pack from
>thor as the Hornady FPB
>bullets were way too hard
>to push. Tried their
>sizes and ordered 50 bullets
>and went and shot.
>Way better accuracy and not
>near as hard to push.
>

Yes, thors shot pretty well in my omega.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Arrow1]

I have had two Omegas and a Triumph I still have one Omega and the Triumph. In terms of age I have had my Omega for about 6 years and just bought the Triumph this summer. I got my triumph dialed in for Colorado today up at Hot Sulphur Springs and settled on 300 grain Thors with 90 gr Blackhorn. That gave me 1 inch groups at 100yds using a Williams peep. Checked with my Omega and pretty much the same thing, though that muzzy is scoped for my Arizona hunts. I will admit the bore is slightly tighter on my Omega, but the accuracy is no different between the two guns. My brother shoots powerbelts out of his Omega with fine accuracy. I sold my other Omega to a friend who also shoots full bore bullets out of it. Absolutely no accuracy issues. So that is 4 for 4 that are great shooters. I have heard about the QLA issue, but I would think it must have been a bad batch of barrels. I mean really, in the age of modern machining, unless some tech screws up the setup in programming the drill, a computer controlled bit is going to be with 1/10000 or less. Further, many new muzzleloaders use something similar to what TC refers to as the QLA. Also the 1:28 twist every one bashes, with the exception of the 1:24 mentioned in a previous post, is pretty much the standard for all inlines (CVA, Traditions etc). I just wonder how much of the issue is actually due to a bad gun, or people just reading some posts from a few with issues and then spreading it around. Just my 2 cents.

 

[lostinOregon]

I bought a CVA Accura V2. I have a bunch of load suggestions and will work those up.

One question, I bought a Williams peep but am wondering what you guys use for the front sight blade?

Thanks for everyone's help, this has been fun getting it all put together,

Rich

 

[barner107]

Try a front globe sight with the Williams rear peep. I have the crosshair insert in the front globe - works really well for me. I am using the Lyman 17AHB. Good Luck.

 

[lostinOregon]

Thanks, I looked at the front globe sights and have a few questions. How do you know what height and how do you attach the dovetail to a rounded CVA barrel. It looks like the front sight is attached with one screw on my muzzy?

Rich

 

[txhunter58]

>I have had two Omegas and
>a Triumph I still have
>one Omega and the Triumph.
>In terms of age I
>have had my Omega for
>about 6 years and just
>bought the Triumph this summer.
>I got my triumph dialed
>in for Colorado today up
>at Hot Sulphur Springs and
>settled on 300 grain Thors
>with 90 gr Blackhorn. That
>gave me 1 inch groups
>at 100yds using a Williams
>peep. Checked with my
>Omega and pretty much the
>same thing, though that muzzy
>is scoped for my Arizona
>hunts. I will admit the
>bore is slightly tighter on
>my Omega, but the accuracy
>is no different between the
>two guns. My brother shoots
>powerbelts out of his Omega
>with fine accuracy. I sold
>my other Omega to a
>friend who also shoots full
>bore bullets out of it.
>Absolutely no accuracy issues. So
>that is 4 for 4
>that are great shooters. I
>have heard about the QLA
>issue, but I would think
>it must have been a
>bad batch of barrels.
>I mean really, in the
>age of modern machining, unless
>some tech screws up the
>setup in programming the drill,
>a computer controlled bit is
>going to be with 1/10000
>or less. Further, many new
>muzzleloaders use something similar to
>what TC refers to as
>the QLA. Also the 1:28
>twist every one bashes, with
>the exception of the 1:24
>mentioned in a previous post,
>is pretty much the standard
>for all inlines (CVA, Traditions
>etc). I just wonder how
>much of the issue is
>actually due to a bad
>gun, or people just reading
>some posts from a few
>with issues and then spreading
>it around. Just my
>2 cents.

Glad your QLA guns shoot well. But my bore was definitely cut off center to the QLA. Gunsmith that took if off measured it. It did fairly well with bullets having a rear bell (powerbelts/thors/FPBs) but not full bore conicals (some bullets like no excuses going through the target sideways).

And no one but T/C is claiming that the 1:28 twist is too fast for conicals. That is what they will tell you if you ask whether or not their guns will shoot conicals. Their answer: "No, our guns have a 1:28 twist which is designed for sabots, not conicals" Total fabrication


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)