cold weather boots
- Thread starter squirtdog
- Start date
Don,
I have a pair of Meindl's but the un-insulated ones, best boot I have ever owned. I am going to get these next for cold weather hunting.
Meindle Pefekt Hunters through Cabela's and others have said the same about them, very good and hardly any breaking in need.
Brian
I have a pair of Meindl's but the un-insulated ones, best boot I have ever owned. I am going to get these next for cold weather hunting.
Meindle Pefekt Hunters through Cabela's and others have said the same about them, very good and hardly any breaking in need.
Brian
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
What exactly do you mean by hiking? Depending on the terrain I would suggest two boots.
The Sorel Conquest is not your average every day "pac" boot. It is a lace down, technical snow boot that is great for snow shoeing and will take a crampon. I have used it on the steeps in heavy snow. It is a great boot that is rated to -40. Ice fishing, if I remember my Minnesota roots correctly, involves a lot of sitting around. The Conquest might meet both chalenges better than any boot out there.
The other boot is the Danner Santiam which is lined with 400 grams of Thinsulate. Not designed to handle the cold that the Conquests are but it is more of a snow country heavy hiker. I think it is a great late season elk/deer boot that will handle varied terrain including alot of rocks.
Whatever it is, make sure that it is big enough not to restrict blood flow to your feet and will accomidate the top notch winter thickness socks from say Lorpen or Thorlo.
I would not look at the hard/stiff boots like the Lowa Hunter Extreme, Silberhorns or Mountain Experts, which are all insulated with Primaloft, unless I was doing mountaineering or in heavy rock/shale and in the steeps.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
The Sorel Conquest is not your average every day "pac" boot. It is a lace down, technical snow boot that is great for snow shoeing and will take a crampon. I have used it on the steeps in heavy snow. It is a great boot that is rated to -40. Ice fishing, if I remember my Minnesota roots correctly, involves a lot of sitting around. The Conquest might meet both chalenges better than any boot out there.
The other boot is the Danner Santiam which is lined with 400 grams of Thinsulate. Not designed to handle the cold that the Conquests are but it is more of a snow country heavy hiker. I think it is a great late season elk/deer boot that will handle varied terrain including alot of rocks.
Whatever it is, make sure that it is big enough not to restrict blood flow to your feet and will accomidate the top notch winter thickness socks from say Lorpen or Thorlo.
I would not look at the hard/stiff boots like the Lowa Hunter Extreme, Silberhorns or Mountain Experts, which are all insulated with Primaloft, unless I was doing mountaineering or in heavy rock/shale and in the steeps.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
S
Slide
Guest
Depends on far you are walking, but here it goes. I have owned Mendel's Perfekt Hunter, White's Pac boots and now Kennetrek Mountain Extremes. If your not walking to far the White pac is a great boot, the Mendel is a great boot but I love my new Kennetrek boots. I have only owned them for about 11 days but I love them.
Good luck,
Slide
Good luck,
Slide
B
bull_n_rut
Guest
Got the Cabelas Meindl Perfekt Hunters and absolutely love them.
K
KILLERBEE
Guest
i bought the meindle "ALASKA HUNTERS" and honestly -- they suck....... they are the stiffest boots i have ever owned like walking in a ski boot. i've had them for 4 months now and their a little better but if i'm going hiking i go back to my old lacrosse boots. i wont say they are the best either but for the money, $100.00, they are great boots! before i bought my boots i recomended the perfect hunters to a plumber buddy of mine. i told them that i've heard nothing but great feedback on them, from here mainly, so he bought them---- and hates them. anyone who says there is no break in time is crazy. they do get better but it is a ruff first 10 trips. i like mine a little better now, but i will were them out and try another brand.
and the danner boots--- well.... i used to be a huge fan. in fact my 2 yr old daughters name--- DANNER. but they aren't what they used to be. and for 200.00 bucks, they dont cut it for me either. i've had 2 pair of the pronghorns, 1 pair of the elk hunter, and 1 pair of the "made in china" [or where ever there cheap ones are made] and couldn't tell a difference between any of them. i was lucky to get 6 months out of them.
so for now i dont have a GREAT recomendation to help. i'm rolling on my meindle alaska hunters for a while. for 300 bucks you have to keep them till there wore out. but i dont know what i'll do next, go back to a pair of lacrosse, in which i was just as happy as any other of these boots for WAY less, or i will try out the scarpa or lowa boots just to see............
and the danner boots--- well.... i used to be a huge fan. in fact my 2 yr old daughters name--- DANNER. but they aren't what they used to be. and for 200.00 bucks, they dont cut it for me either. i've had 2 pair of the pronghorns, 1 pair of the elk hunter, and 1 pair of the "made in china" [or where ever there cheap ones are made] and couldn't tell a difference between any of them. i was lucky to get 6 months out of them.
so for now i dont have a GREAT recomendation to help. i'm rolling on my meindle alaska hunters for a while. for 300 bucks you have to keep them till there wore out. but i dont know what i'll do next, go back to a pair of lacrosse, in which i was just as happy as any other of these boots for WAY less, or i will try out the scarpa or lowa boots just to see............
wymoosehunter
Active Member
- Messages
- 134
For the type of activity you indicated, I really like the Schnees' Hunter II, and if it really gets cold, the Extreme model. Depending on the hunt or the activity, I match my boots and other gear to that.
I can hike/hunt 15+ miles in a day in deep snow and cold and still be warm with these boots, without sacrificing traction and stability. That is not to say there aren't different boots that couldn't do it as well, but I haven't seen any, given your parameters.
Take a good look at them, and the real nice thing about Schnees is that you can order them, try em, and return them if they don't quite fit. Plus they can be rebuilt when you wear the bottoms out.
For summer hiking and early season hunting, I use Merrill or North Face lite hikers. For hardcore backpack hunting sheep or goat/skree/heavy loads and other truly tough conditions, I use Lowa Sheep Hunter boots.
For cold weather hunting, fishing and chores, I use the Schnee's Hunter II. Down here in the lower 48, I haven't really found a need to go to the Extremes, but on a late season (January) bow hunt in Montana near Jellystone, I really wished that I had the Extremes when it -45 during a hike in and bivouac hunt.
There are lots of great boots, but serious hunting and working in cold, rough country has led me to these three boot choices for the various seasons.
Just my two cents.
Jim
I can hike/hunt 15+ miles in a day in deep snow and cold and still be warm with these boots, without sacrificing traction and stability. That is not to say there aren't different boots that couldn't do it as well, but I haven't seen any, given your parameters.
Take a good look at them, and the real nice thing about Schnees is that you can order them, try em, and return them if they don't quite fit. Plus they can be rebuilt when you wear the bottoms out.
For summer hiking and early season hunting, I use Merrill or North Face lite hikers. For hardcore backpack hunting sheep or goat/skree/heavy loads and other truly tough conditions, I use Lowa Sheep Hunter boots.
For cold weather hunting, fishing and chores, I use the Schnee's Hunter II. Down here in the lower 48, I haven't really found a need to go to the Extremes, but on a late season (January) bow hunt in Montana near Jellystone, I really wished that I had the Extremes when it -45 during a hike in and bivouac hunt.
There are lots of great boots, but serious hunting and working in cold, rough country has led me to these three boot choices for the various seasons.
Just my two cents.
Jim
N
need2hunt
Guest
I am very hard on boots and I go thru a pair of hikers every 9 months to a year. I work in them and hit the hills with them during my spare time. In all honesty all the pairs I have tried over the years (meindls, cabela's all leather mt. hikers, danners, rocky.....have tried almost everything...except for the really cheapo brands) and all have lasted about the amount of time....yes no matter the price you pay for them they give you all about the same amount of wear!!! Some are more comfortable than others and i've decided the pair I like most are the cabela's all leather mountain hikers.
Also in all the boots I have owned, the Gore-tex lasts a month or two if you use them hard...there really is no such thing as a waterproof hiking boot!!! Invest in a peet boot dryer.
Also in all the boots I have owned, the Gore-tex lasts a month or two if you use them hard...there really is no such thing as a waterproof hiking boot!!! Invest in a peet boot dryer.
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
OK, I am trying to be a little easier with my responses but I just can't let a post like this slide without a comment. Of all the differennt groups that I work with daily and based on my own experience the people that are hardest on boots are the wildland firefighters. Especially the full time guys that are still on the lines.
Most of those guys will tell you that they get 2 or 3 seasons out of a good pair of leather boots from makers like Whites, Nicks and Drews and then they usually have them rebuilt for another round. Some of the younger guys have gone to the European heavy hikers like the La Sportiva, Scarpas or Lowas but they are still getting at least two years out of them unless of course they burn 'em up.
Good Lord, what is it that you are doing to your boots that causes you to retire them after only 9 to 12 months? And why aren't you buying a better boot and having them remade? The Cabelas Mountain Hiker-All Leather is a nice enough boot but I can list 20 other boots that are better made and out of more substantial materials.
As far as the statment that there is no such thing as a waterproof boot, I simply and catagorically disagree. A well made, well dressed and maintained boot backed up with a Gore-Tex liner/bootie is and will stay waterproof.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
Most of those guys will tell you that they get 2 or 3 seasons out of a good pair of leather boots from makers like Whites, Nicks and Drews and then they usually have them rebuilt for another round. Some of the younger guys have gone to the European heavy hikers like the La Sportiva, Scarpas or Lowas but they are still getting at least two years out of them unless of course they burn 'em up.
Good Lord, what is it that you are doing to your boots that causes you to retire them after only 9 to 12 months? And why aren't you buying a better boot and having them remade? The Cabelas Mountain Hiker-All Leather is a nice enough boot but I can list 20 other boots that are better made and out of more substantial materials.
As far as the statment that there is no such thing as a waterproof boot, I simply and catagorically disagree. A well made, well dressed and maintained boot backed up with a Gore-Tex liner/bootie is and will stay waterproof.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
K
KILLERBEE
Guest
if [ and a BIG "IF"] i use my hunting boots as my work boots i would not get 6 months out of them. i've done it way to many times . so i dont use the same boots for work as hunting. i do construction and i really dont believe a boot is made good enough to get more out of them than 6 months at work. i do know i am WAY harder on boots then most.i once bought a new pair of DANNER elk hunters for 199$. the next day a work i kicked a piece of particle board in place and tore the sole off of them. they did get replaced but that is just 1 instance. i've bought boots at the same time as other guys on the job [ the same boot] and while they did get over a year out of them i dont.
i also know lots of guys that are smoke jumpers and hot shot fire fighters. many use the whites. but they have to have them rebuilt every year or 2. a lot are swithching to meindle. one of my best friend is on his 3rd or 4th pair. but not because they are so hardy and last. after each season he has been able to send the leaky or torn boot back and recieved a replacement each time.
i also know lots of guys that are smoke jumpers and hot shot fire fighters. many use the whites. but they have to have them rebuilt every year or 2. a lot are swithching to meindle. one of my best friend is on his 3rd or 4th pair. but not because they are so hardy and last. after each season he has been able to send the leaky or torn boot back and recieved a replacement each time.
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
I don't know any wildland FFrs that use Meindls nor have I seen any in the field. The most popular approved wildland boots are Haix, Whites, Danner, Drews, Nicks, Wescos. Average is 2 years plus and then rebuild.
The non-approved, and it depends on the agency, boots that I am seeing and hearing about are the La Sportiva Glacier and Lhoste and an occasional Scarpa. The problem is that they are not 8 inches and there have been reports of delamination when exposed to high temperatures consistant with that kind of work.
As for your woork boots. You mentioned dry wall, are you buiding houses or finishing commercial space? What kind of work boots are you using that only last 6 months?
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
The non-approved, and it depends on the agency, boots that I am seeing and hearing about are the La Sportiva Glacier and Lhoste and an occasional Scarpa. The problem is that they are not 8 inches and there have been reports of delamination when exposed to high temperatures consistant with that kind of work.
As for your woork boots. You mentioned dry wall, are you buiding houses or finishing commercial space? What kind of work boots are you using that only last 6 months?
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
K
KILLERBEE
Guest
i re-read my post, no dry wall. [ please dont mention that crap with me, i hate the stuff
] the list of boots i've used that i have got the same results from, off the top of my head, DANNER, REDWING, IRISH SETTER, HIGH TECH,LACROSSE, AND CABELAS. i've tried every thing from rubber overmolded toe covers to leather / double leather to tips. i can tell you for 100% that with my work i will get the same results with any boots. i do everything from start to finish on a house minus just a few sub contractors.. DRYWALL BEING ONE I DONT DO. the par i wear out every time is on top of the toes, no boot can make a leather tuff enough to even put 2 layers to last. same with the rubber coated tips.
that said i dont compare a good boot to if they will last through this, it's impossible.
i would gladly be a test guy for you. if you would like to send me a different type of boot in 8 1/2 every 6 month i will document how i wore them out then send them back for my new pair. just funnin' with ya.
lastly if you were to come see the redmond smoke jumper base in central oregon, or if you were to come see the prineville hotshot crew you would see plenty of mendle boots. all of them have started trying them from seeing other crews using them. so if you check into it i'm sure you'll find many who were them.
like i said in my first post. i'm not bashing these boots, i just know whether to up the amount i spend on boots, these new alaska hunters were 279.00, for work knowing they cant last longer. for hunting boots it's another story. i keep my good boots just for my hunts and i have 5 yrs of hunting on my old lacrosse boots.
sorry 2 kids crying i'll have to get back later.
] the list of boots i've used that i have got the same results from, off the top of my head, DANNER, REDWING, IRISH SETTER, HIGH TECH,LACROSSE, AND CABELAS. i've tried every thing from rubber overmolded toe covers to leather / double leather to tips. i can tell you for 100% that with my work i will get the same results with any boots. i do everything from start to finish on a house minus just a few sub contractors.. DRYWALL BEING ONE I DONT DO. the par i wear out every time is on top of the toes, no boot can make a leather tuff enough to even put 2 layers to last. same with the rubber coated tips.that said i dont compare a good boot to if they will last through this, it's impossible.
i would gladly be a test guy for you. if you would like to send me a different type of boot in 8 1/2 every 6 month i will document how i wore them out then send them back for my new pair.
just funnin' with ya.lastly if you were to come see the redmond smoke jumper base in central oregon, or if you were to come see the prineville hotshot crew you would see plenty of mendle boots. all of them have started trying them from seeing other crews using them. so if you check into it i'm sure you'll find many who were them.
like i said in my first post. i'm not bashing these boots, i just know whether to up the amount i spend on boots, these new alaska hunters were 279.00, for work knowing they cant last longer. for hunting boots it's another story. i keep my good boots just for my hunts and i have 5 yrs of hunting on my old lacrosse boots.
sorry 2 kids crying i'll have to get back later.
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
Sorry, particle board not dry wall.
That is extraodinary. One of my guys runs a land fill and a demo company and I thought he was as tough as you could get on boots but he averages one pair a year if he changes the insoles and blows the dust off of them once in a while. He finally switched from the Red Wings to the Cabelas Badlands. I still like the Danner Quarry.
I will keep a eye out for something that will work better for you, especially in that toe area. I work with all the boot guys and surely there has to be something that could last at least a year for you. Are you sure you aren't dragging them behind the truck all the way home everyday? 8.5 Mens U.S. correct? Send me a PM with your email and I will see what I can do.
Do you know which Meindl models those guys are wearing because that is news to me. If you could find out exactly which model it is, I would really appreciate it.
As for the kids. Been there doing that. I don't know which is worse crying when they are little or yelling when they are big. Oh well.
Take care and let me know what you find out.
Thanks.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
That is extraodinary. One of my guys runs a land fill and a demo company and I thought he was as tough as you could get on boots but he averages one pair a year if he changes the insoles and blows the dust off of them once in a while. He finally switched from the Red Wings to the Cabelas Badlands. I still like the Danner Quarry.
I will keep a eye out for something that will work better for you, especially in that toe area. I work with all the boot guys and surely there has to be something that could last at least a year for you. Are you sure you aren't dragging them behind the truck all the way home everyday? 8.5 Mens U.S. correct? Send me a PM with your email and I will see what I can do.
Do you know which Meindl models those guys are wearing because that is news to me. If you could find out exactly which model it is, I would really appreciate it.
As for the kids. Been there doing that. I don't know which is worse crying when they are little or yelling when they are big. Oh well.
Take care and let me know what you find out.
Thanks.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
N
need2hunt
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-09 AT 09:10AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-09 AT 09:07?AM (MST)
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-09 AT 08:51?AM (MST)
I understand where you're coming from, but I have tried over the years to find such a boot that will last and have been unable to do such. Do you have any recommendations for me other than what I have tried?
I am a forestry technician (going on 15 years) and perform timber sale layout as well as doing some wildland firefighting in the summers. I am hiking thru very rough situations nearly on a daily basis, sticks, limbs, rocks, ice, mud, dirt, gravel, even pavement.....etc. I practically live in my boots. All boots I have tried seem to wear out where the sole attaches to the leather and/or along any seams...but that is after the gore-tex begins leaking. All Danners I have tried are absolutely terrible for falling apart at the stitching/seams along with the sole detaching at the toe. FYI-proper boot care is also something I practice.
If you need a waterproof boot invest in a quality pair of pac boots. I own a pair of hoffmans that I wear when the weather turns damp, cold or snowy. I even wear them in the summer if/when we get a rain system moving thru. Grease them up good and they will keep your feet dry.
As for hiking boots I still recommend buying for comfort and invest in a peet boot dryer. Nearly all the guys I work with own a boot dryer.
On another note, I have tried out the whites, hawthornes, and other fire boots. They just aren't worth the money(hundres of dollars) if they aren't comfortable on your feet. Some guys can wear them with no probs but other guys like me just can't get any comfort in wearing them and comfort makes all the difference in the world. That is why I spend money every year investing in a pair of hiking boots that is easy on the feet. I have also tried the Alaska hikers by meindl have gotten about the same amount of wear as the cabela's all leather hikers. $280 versus $180 is a no brainer for me. Not being a spokes sperson for the brand but that is just the pair I find most comfy....get the pair that is most comfy for ya.
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-09 AT 08:51?AM (MST)
I understand where you're coming from, but I have tried over the years to find such a boot that will last and have been unable to do such. Do you have any recommendations for me other than what I have tried?
I am a forestry technician (going on 15 years) and perform timber sale layout as well as doing some wildland firefighting in the summers. I am hiking thru very rough situations nearly on a daily basis, sticks, limbs, rocks, ice, mud, dirt, gravel, even pavement.....etc. I practically live in my boots. All boots I have tried seem to wear out where the sole attaches to the leather and/or along any seams...but that is after the gore-tex begins leaking. All Danners I have tried are absolutely terrible for falling apart at the stitching/seams along with the sole detaching at the toe. FYI-proper boot care is also something I practice.
If you need a waterproof boot invest in a quality pair of pac boots. I own a pair of hoffmans that I wear when the weather turns damp, cold or snowy. I even wear them in the summer if/when we get a rain system moving thru. Grease them up good and they will keep your feet dry.
As for hiking boots I still recommend buying for comfort and invest in a peet boot dryer. Nearly all the guys I work with own a boot dryer.
On another note, I have tried out the whites, hawthornes, and other fire boots. They just aren't worth the money(hundres of dollars) if they aren't comfortable on your feet. Some guys can wear them with no probs but other guys like me just can't get any comfort in wearing them and comfort makes all the difference in the world. That is why I spend money every year investing in a pair of hiking boots that is easy on the feet. I have also tried the Alaska hikers by meindl have gotten about the same amount of wear as the cabela's all leather hikers. $280 versus $180 is a no brainer for me. Not being a spokes sperson for the brand but that is just the pair I find most comfy....get the pair that is most comfy for ya.
+1 on the boot care.
most guys dont perform half the care they should on their boots. i consider my boots #2 on my priority list of hunting gear. rifle/scope being #1. i clean and oil my boots after EVERY trip. no exceptions. if youre working in them, especially in construction, id be doing it ever day. or better yet, dont wear your good hunting boots to work. luckily my company buys me new work boots every year. we can purchase whatever we want (within budget) and i always go with the redwings. as for hunting boots, the one exception to me has been my last two pair of danners. they are absolute junk, and i will never buy or endorse them to anyone ever again. i used to love them back in the day when they made a quality product. i am going with the perfekt hunters this year.
most guys dont perform half the care they should on their boots. i consider my boots #2 on my priority list of hunting gear. rifle/scope being #1. i clean and oil my boots after EVERY trip. no exceptions. if youre working in them, especially in construction, id be doing it ever day. or better yet, dont wear your good hunting boots to work. luckily my company buys me new work boots every year. we can purchase whatever we want (within budget) and i always go with the redwings. as for hunting boots, the one exception to me has been my last two pair of danners. they are absolute junk, and i will never buy or endorse them to anyone ever again. i used to love them back in the day when they made a quality product. i am going with the perfekt hunters this year.
robinsg61le
Active Member
- Messages
- 198
+1 on the clean and oil often, but be careful about spraying them off. The tiny water particles take their tole.
If you've ever seen what even a slow water drip will do to concrete over time you know what I mean... I'm not talking about an occasional spray off, but daily takes its tole.
I used to spay my boots everyday after work and they paid the price... or I should say I paid the price!
If you've ever seen what even a slow water drip will do to concrete over time you know what I mean... I'm not talking about an occasional spray off, but daily takes its tole.
I used to spay my boots everyday after work and they paid the price... or I should say I paid the price!
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
Huh?
A little water and a soft or medium nylon brush does a great job of cleaning boots. Dob them with a cotton towel and then let them air dry. No fan. When they are dry, I use a spray silicone like Kiwi Camp Dry to spray it all down and let 'em dry again.
If you wear boots everyday try buying another pair and alternating them every other day and change the insoles every few months.
I am not an oil fan partly because what I have seen it do to tack, baseball mits and boots over the years but also because the manufacturers don't recommend it.
Biwells beswax is also very good but I always thought it was a lot of work and not as effective as the silicone. The wax also doesn't do very well in the heat.
It is the dirt/sand/silica particles that tears up and destroys the stitching and bonding agents on these boots.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
A little water and a soft or medium nylon brush does a great job of cleaning boots. Dob them with a cotton towel and then let them air dry. No fan. When they are dry, I use a spray silicone like Kiwi Camp Dry to spray it all down and let 'em dry again.
If you wear boots everyday try buying another pair and alternating them every other day and change the insoles every few months.
I am not an oil fan partly because what I have seen it do to tack, baseball mits and boots over the years but also because the manufacturers don't recommend it.
Biwells beswax is also very good but I always thought it was a lot of work and not as effective as the silicone. The wax also doesn't do very well in the heat.
It is the dirt/sand/silica particles that tears up and destroys the stitching and bonding agents on these boots.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
I have to say Sorel Conquests are the worst boots I've ever worn. I can't walk more than a half mile in them before they start killing my ankles since right about where the buckle is it digs into me. I tried using them just sitting in a treestand whitetail hunting this year and my feet were as cold as they were in my uninsulated Kenetreks.
I contacted Sorel and their response was "This sounds like a fitment issue which we can't help you with". The boots fit fine they are just a POS.
Just my .02
Ben
I contacted Sorel and their response was "This sounds like a fitment issue which we can't help you with". The boots fit fine they are just a POS.
Just my .02
Ben
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
Killerbee
Regarding our discussion about your work boot abuse. Did you find some Shoe Goo?
Also, check the Powerwelt Boot from Timberland Pro, it has a particulary well protected toe exterior. Like I said in the PM, I still think the best and easiest thing to do is find a pair of boots that fit you right and then try to protect them with something like Shoe Goo. Another one is called KG's Boot Guard. It is a brush on material that bonds to the leather and protects it from heavy abrasion.
If that doesn't work, I don't know what else to tell you.
Hope that helps.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
Regarding our discussion about your work boot abuse. Did you find some Shoe Goo?
Also, check the Powerwelt Boot from Timberland Pro, it has a particulary well protected toe exterior. Like I said in the PM, I still think the best and easiest thing to do is find a pair of boots that fit you right and then try to protect them with something like Shoe Goo. Another one is called KG's Boot Guard. It is a brush on material that bonds to the leather and protects it from heavy abrasion.
If that doesn't work, I don't know what else to tell you.
Hope that helps.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
