Colorado Wolves

They are completely different animals living in completely different ecosystems feeding on completely different animals. You are comparing apples to oranges.
 
johnnycake said:
That isn't the claim I made, but here's a fascinating graph showing historical vs relatively current distribution of wolves in Western Europe. View attachment 130436

And here's one that compares the size of Europe to the Lower 48
View attachment 130438

Flabbergasting to think of how there are not just huntable populations of big game in Western Europe--there are growing populations of many big game species, despite having ~10x the number of wolves in Western Europe vs the Western US, and despite Western Europe having far less wild land and more than double the humans of the Western US (even including all the Californians still in California)


There are definitely fundamental differences in landownership. But it might surprise you to know that in many countries of Europe there are opportunities for residents to hunt on government owned land, and there are even draw tags to go for. Most of European hunting is similar to what you get east of the Rockies with access fees paid to landowners, leasing hunting rights, or becoming a member of a hunting club that manages and leases specific properties. It's pretty analogous even to CWMU/Landowner tags or hunting private property in the West. And most of the hunting is unfenced for wild, free ranging big game. None of which makes a difference to how much the wolves there eat, so its more of a comparing fuji apples to honeycrisp apples. Slight differences in appearance, taste, and texture but overall far more similar than they are different.


Sure buddy...one is a group of Canis lupus subspecies that live in packs, average ~70-100lbs with occasional outliers, that hunt big game, occasionally kill livestock, and rarely attack humans that live in Europe. The other is a group of Canis lupus subspecies that live in packs, average ~70-100lbs with occasional outliers, that hunt big game, occasionally kill livestock, and rarely attack humans that live in North America. Totes different.
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Boom…..slam dunk correlation between wolves and socialism. Take a bow. (y)
 
Togwotee said:
You can't fix stupid, so anyone that thinks the thousands of game animals taken by wolves each year has no effect on herd numbers or hunting can't be reasoned with.
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You're right, you can't fix stupid: I never said no effect. But I did say it won't eliminate hunting all together as the chicken littles like to scream. Perhaps you had the same reading comprehension teacher as some of the MDF/SFW expo fanboys on this site, so I probably should try to simplify my explanations. There's room at the table of big game killers for both wolves and hunters. Wolves are cool. And they are a very challenging animal to hunt. Maybe one day you'll be lucky enough to give that a try.
 
johnnycake said:
You're right, you can't fix stupid: I never said no effect. But I did say it won't eliminate hunting all together as the chicken littles like to scream. Perhaps you had the same reading comprehension teacher as some of the MDF/SFW expo fanboys on this site, so I probably should try to simplify my explanations. There's room at the table of big game killers for both wolves and hunters. Wolves are cool. And they are a very challenging animal to hunt. Maybe one day you'll be lucky enough to give that a try.
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maybe I’m ignorant but I was under I’m impression wolves will always be considered a non game species in Colorado. Correct me if I’m wrong…
 
johnnycake said:
You're right, you can't fix stupid: I never said no effect. But I did say it won't eliminate hunting all together as the chicken littles like to scream. Perhaps you had the same reading comprehension teacher as some of the MDF/SFW expo fanboys on this site, so I probably should try to simplify my explanations. There's room at the table of big game killers for both wolves and hunters. Wolves are cool. And they are a very challenging animal to hunt. Maybe one day you'll be lucky enough to give that a try.
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You sound like Biden trying to explain how great of a job he is doing... inflation is only at 6%... Johnnycake trying to justify releasing wolves on an already hurting, naive prey base that hasn't had to deal with wolves in 150 years.
But yeah wolves are great, I just hope you don't live in CO, you will probably be voting to eliminate cat hunting too!
 
1989Cohunter said:
maybe I’m ignorant but I was under I’m impression wolves will always be considered a non game species in Colorado. Correct me if I’m wrong…
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No idea. I don't care enough about CO to dig into it. I just get tired of the all too common attitude among hunters that "woofs are bad! They'll kill all the animals I want to kill!" Growing up in Utah in the 90s and 2000s I was fully suckered into that mindset watching the wolves to the north expand and expand. But seeing that play out over the last ~30 years has made me change my tune completely. And an animal's conservation status and designation today is never a guarantee that it will be the same in a decade or three. But every person on here convinced that wolves are the worst plague to big game hunting can go and hunt wolves today OTC in 4 states, and "help". But they won't. If they did, they might realize the wolf problem isn't as terrible as the Internet makes it seem.

montezumarchery said:
But yeah wolves are great, I just hope you don't live in CO, you will probably be voting to eliminate cat hunting too!
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Can't tell you enough how happy I am to not live in CO. It's amazing, you actually have a choice where you end up living. And why would I want to eliminate cat hunting? I had a riot on my cougar hunt in 2012, everybody should be so lucky as to give that a go. Same as when my dad and I killed a wolf in Alaska in 2006. Or my AK brown bear in 2021. Hunting apex predators is far more intense and exciting than hunting prey species. But you can't do that if you don't have apex predators on the landscape to chase.
 
johnnycake said:
No idea. I don't care enough about CO to dig into it. I just get tired of the all too common attitude among hunters that "woofs are bad! They'll kill all the animals I want to kill!" Growing up in Utah in the 90s and 2000s I was fully suckered into that mindset watching the wolves to the north expand and expand. But seeing that play out over the last ~30 years has made me change my tune completely. And an animal's conservation status and designation today is never a guarantee that it will be the same in a decade or three. But every person on here convinced that wolves are the worst plague to big game hunting can go and hunt wolves today OTC in 4 states, and "help". But they won't. If they did, they might realize the wolf problem isn't as terrible as the Internet makes it seem.


Can't tell you enough how happy I am to not live in CO. It's amazing, you actually have a choice where you end up living. And why would I want to eliminate cat hunting? I had a riot on my cougar hunt in 2012, everybody should be so lucky as to give that a go. Same as when my dad and I killed a wolf in Alaska in 2006. Or my AK brown bear in 2021. Hunting apex predators is far more intense and exciting than hunting prey species. But you can't do that if you don't have apex predators on the landscape to chase.
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I get it man, I don’t have any hate in my heart for wolves they are animals and can’t reason they just do what they do…. Now for the two legged b!tches that hate me and my family my life style and heritage I have different feelings.

Some of us were actually born here, our parents were born here, we have careers and business and it’s not as easy as packing a bag… thankfully you Utards have done enough things right to fend off the hordes from CA or the blue haired wokesters… but beware, it only took a handful of years to end up the mess we are in now… just saying be careful, Utah, wyo, mt, and Idaho all have beautiful places that the liberal white women crave and will F-up!

Over here we will fight the lion ban like hell! Heck I am just getting to a point in my life where I can afford to hire a good houndsman and they are pulling this crap!
 
johnnycake said:
No idea. I don't care enough about CO to dig into it. I just get tired of the all too common attitude among hunters that "woofs are bad! They'll kill all the animals I want to kill!" Growing up in Utah in the 90s and 2000s I was fully suckered into that mindset watching the wolves to the north expand and expand. But seeing that play out over the last ~30 years has made me change my tune completely. And an animal's conservation status and designation today is never a guarantee that it will be the same in a decade or three. But every person on here convinced that wolves are the worst plague to big game hunting can go and hunt wolves today OTC in 4 states, and "help". But they won't. If they did, they might realize the wolf problem isn't as terrible as the Internet makes it seem.


Can't tell you enough how happy I am to not live in CO. It's amazing, you actually have a choice where you end up living. And why would I want to eliminate cat hunting? I had a riot on my cougar hunt in 2012, everybody should be so lucky as to give that a go. Same as when my dad and I killed a wolf in Alaska in 2006. Or my AK brown bear in 2021. Hunting apex predators is far more intense and exciting than hunting prey species. But you can't do that if you don't have apex predators on the landscape to chase.
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It kind of seems like you do care. I said it before, I worry more about our crappy state politics than wolves. But I do believe they will have a negative impact. Hopefully I’m wrong.
 
HntHrdr said:
I get it man, I don’t have any hate in my heart for wolves they are animals and can’t reason they just do what they do…. Now for the two legged b!tches that hate me and my family my life style and heritage I have different feelings.

Some of us were actually born here, our parents were born here, we have careers and business and it’s not as easy as packing a bag… thankfully you Utards have done enough things right to fend off the hordes from CA or the blue haired wokesters… but beware, it only took a handful of years to end up the mess we are in now… just saying be careful, Utah, wyo, mt, and Idaho all have beautiful places that the liberal white women crave and will F-up!

Over here we will fight the lion ban like hell! Heck I am just getting to a point in my life where I can afford to hire a good houndsman and they are pulling this crap!
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Liberal white women. Goddammit I knew it! mtmuley
 
Nobody said wolves will kill everything, but they kill a lot.

The Subaru crowd thinks we live in the wild west where nothing has changed, we just have a few more oxygen bars and mountain bike shops than we did in 1876.

News flash Einstein, it's not. millions of people displacing game, their vehicles killing game, agriculture to feed all those people and plenty of other predators take a toll Sitting Bull didn't have to deal with back when wolves existed in the west.

So, in the real world hunters harvest the excess game, or in reality a percentage of the game that often exceeds the best management. so just because you can open the door of your yurt and when the weed smoke clears you can see a couple deer in your yard does not mean we have room for a bunch of wolves. it means hunters will be harvest less game and I'll be losing livestock to your f'ing sacred puppy dogs. and even if I'm compensated, which no program is in place for that here yet, maybe I don't want my damn animals eaten alive .

This pro wolf chit is why I quit RMEF. everyone wants to think they're Jeremiah Johnson.
 
Togwotee said:
Nobody said wolves will kill everything, but they kill a lot.

The Subaru crowd thinks we live in the wild west where nothing has changed, we just have a few more oxygen bars and mountain bike shops than we did in 1876.

News flash Einstein, it's not. millions of people displacing game, their vehicles killing game, agriculture to feed all those people and plenty of other predators take a toll Sitting Bull didn't have to deal with back when wolves existed in the west.

So, in the real world hunters harvest the excess game, or in reality a percentage of the game that often exceeds the best management. so just because you can open the door of your yurt and when the weed smoke clears you can see a couple deer in your yard does not mean we have room for a bunch of wolves. it means hunters will be harvest less game and I'll be losing livestock to your f'ing sacred puppy dogs. and even if I'm compensated, which no program is in place for that here yet, maybe I don't want my damn animals eaten alive .

This pro wolf chit is why I quit RMEF. everyone wants to think they're Jeremiah Johnson.
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So quit hunting. That's the end game right? mtmuley
 
HntHrdr said:
Some of us were actually born here, our parents were born here, we have careers and business and it’s not as easy as packing a bag… thankfully you Utards have done enough things right to fend off the hordes from CA or the blue haired wokesters… but beware, it only took a handful of years to end up the mess we are in now… just saying be careful, Utah, wyo, mt, and Idaho all have beautiful places that the liberal white women crave and will F-up!
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I cured my Utardism by moving to AK as soon as I was done with school. Can't say enough how much I enjoy living somewhere that just a week and a half ago I got to see a pair of wolves off the highway less than 10 miles from my house while driving my son to Los Anchorage for a hockey game. It's amazing. People, wolves, grizzlies, black bears, moose, lynx, wolverines, hunting opportunities, and granola crunching lettuce burning hippies recreating outdoors all seem to manage to coexist and even thrive in the Los Anchorage metropolis.
 
IdaMatt said:
Going to chime in here, life long native resident of Idaho, I hunted prior to 1995 when wolves were reintroduced and after in central wilderness units in Idaho. Have wolves had an impact, no doubt, did it completely destroy Idaho's deer and elk populations, no! My Family was on the "they will eat every living deer/elk bandwagon for years", they have not. We used to see a fair amount of wolf tracks in the woods, now days it's pretty rare to see them. The units I hunt had a really bad winter in 07/08, alot of the deer/elk died that winter, and the wolves were blamed for the lack of game, and still are, the numbers still have not recovered from that winter kill. My ex In-Laws were big supporters of the wolf reintroduction, and their interest was not to destroy hunting, it was more from a standpoint that wolves were originally on the landscape and they belong back on it.

Anyways, just my personal experience with it (some of my Family still think it's a Gov't conspiracy to get rid of Hunters, LOL, super funny).
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...the government is too dumb to know it's real goal is to remove hunters.....the Pro wolf groups that got it done did it exactly to end hunting.....
 
Homer said:
...the government is too dumb to know it's real goal is to remove hunters.....the Pro wolf groups that got it done did it exactly to end hunting.....
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Exactly right. the wolf lovers don't love the animals, they HATE hunters.

People that love animals don't get their rocks off on them being eaten alive. yes, it's nature and nature is cruel that's a fact, so is lung cancer . releasing wolves is like snorting asbestos.
 
Togwotee said:
Exactly right. the wolf lovers don't love the animals, they HATE hunters.

People that love animals don't get their rocks off on them being eaten alive. yes, it's nature and nature is cruel that's a fact, so is lung cancer . releasing wolves is like snorting asbestos.
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Painting with a broad brush
 
johnnycake said:
I cured my Utardism by moving to AK as soon as I was done with school. Can't say enough how much I enjoy living somewhere that just a week and a half ago I got to see a pair of wolves off the highway less than 10 miles from my house while driving my son to Los Anchorage for a hockey game. It's amazing. People, wolves, grizzlies, black bears, moose, lynx, wolverines, hunting opportunities, and granola crunching lettuce burning hippies recreating outdoors all seem to manage to coexist and even thrive in the Los Anchorage metropolis.
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That’s awesome, Alaska or at least the spot I visited was great! Definitely not going to move up there but hope to visit again someday. Alaska and Co could not be more different though in terms of land mass, population density, amount of recreation, amount of roads/ trails/ annual snow pack ect. So I would never compare the two and think because X works there it will work everywhere, but I am glad it’s working out for you… glad there are some spots that still a little more on the wild side
 
HntHrdr said:
Alaska and Co could not be more different though in terms of land mass, population density, amount of recreation, amount of roads/ trails/ annual snow pack ect. So I would never compare the two and think because X works there it will work everywhere, but I am glad it’s working out for you… glad there are some spots that still a little more on the wild side
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There's a reason I specifically used the Anchorage metropolitan area in my example. There are plenty of similarities here to issues faced on the front range in CO or Wasatch front in UT in terms of trails, user groups, challenges faced to habitat/wildlife. Not a perfect overlap of course, nowhere is, but that doesn't nullify the usefulness of the comparison. My bigger point being, CO with wolves added to the mix will be just fine in the long run.
 
johnnycake said:
I will bet anybody $10,000 that despite wolves being reintroduced in CO, CO will still have huntable populations of all the same big game species in 2033 as it did in 2023.
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Define huntable populations? If you're willing to say the same number of elk and deer will be inhabiting the landscape in Colorado in 10 years that there are today while keeping all other factors the same ( hunting seasons, habitat, game management etc) you stand to loose a lot of money!

If you're just saying there will be hunting seasons for all big game despite the numbers being substantially less --- pretty safe bet for you and you'll win some money.

I've personally lived in Idaho and currently live in Montana and have seen first hand the damage done by wolves to big game populations. The only people that will deny the damage done are animal rights activists and some liberal people working for Fish and Wildlife Departments.

I'm not smart enough to know why hunting in Europe and some say Alaska supposedly aren't affected by the wolf populations but I have enough common sense to see what's before my very eyes. Elk, Deer and Moose populations will decline in Colorado.

Wolves combined with politics in Colorado could easily lead to the same thing that Washington State is currently "studying."
No longer any need for big game management that involves any type of hunting. Predators will manage big game numbers themselves.

Now that Colorado is trying to politically set new governing standards through the court system next question will be what's the need for firearms of any sort in the state of Colorado??
 
HORNhunter7 said:
Define huntable populations? If you're willing to say the same number of elk and deer will be inhabiting the landscape in Colorado in 10 years that there are today while keeping all other factors the same ( hunting seasons, habitat, game management etc) you stand to loose a lot of money!

If you're just saying there will be hunting seasons for all big game despite the numbers being substantially less --- pretty safe bet for you and you'll win some money.
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Of course I'm saying the second interpretation. Even without wolves being introduced, only an idiot would assume a static number of game animals can exist over a 10 year period.

Over that same time period the #1 driver of any declining opportunity in hunting in CO is going to be human population growth, with extreme weather events (ie drought, heavy winters) coming in as a strong #2. So much so that it would not surprise me if the statistical significance of wolf predation on CO big game affecting hunting opportunities ends up being negligible.
 
johnnycake said:
Of course I'm saying the second interpretation. Even without wolves being introduced, only an idiot would assume a static number of game animals can exist over a 10 year period.

Over that same time period the #1 driver of any declining opportunity in hunting in CO is going to be human population growth, with extreme weather events (ie drought, heavy winters) coming in as a strong #2. So much so that it would not surprise me if the statistical significance of wolf predation on CO big game affecting hunting opportunities ends up being negligible.
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According to what you wants us to believe goes on in Europe, things will still be fine in Colorado with the introduction of wolves. I don't think so.

I agree that human population encroachment will be a major problem but people with any knowledge of Big Game at all are aware of this. SPECIFICALLY state game departments. Knowing this only makes it more idiotic to introduce wolves to an already shrinking big game environment. The number 1 driver of declining big game populations will soon be wolves in Colorado, not population.

Severe winter weather conditions have and always will have a negative affect on big game populations. But guess what. Big Game numbers can rebound from these. They can't and won't rebound from what will soon be an over population of wolves in Colorado. Partly because the direction that state is going I sincerely doubt that they will ever be able to hunt or trap wolves regardless of the population.

The snowy/icy winter of 1996 in Montana is proof of Big Game animals being able to recover from a severe winter. Deer and elk came down in droves from the mountain snow, many only to be hit by cars. It looked like a war zone. In about 4 to 5 years numbers rebounded nicely.

Since the introduction of wolves in the early 2000's big game numbers have declined steadily to what they are today here in Western Montana and large portions of Idaho. They will never recover here and it has nothing to do with hard winters and very little to do with population growth. At least not where I live. In other areas of Montana like the Bitteroot maybe.

If you think wolves won't have a negligible affect on hunting opportunities in Colorado I guess you think you know more than the people who live in states that have seen first hand what wolves can do to big game populations.

If they don't shorten hunting seasons in Colorado because of wolves I guess you can say hunters won't loose any hunting opportunity. To me having a lot less animals to hunt is losing hunting opportunity. Seasons here in Western Montana are still the same as they were pre wolf so according to you we haven't lost any opportunity here either.

No disrespect meant but I don't see how anybody that doesn't have any first hand experience of wolves in the lower 48 can offer a pretty strong opinion on what can be expected to take place in Colorado when wolves get established. But by golly that's your right!!

Have a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
 
johnnycake said:
There's a reason I specifically used the Anchorage metropolitan area in my example. There are plenty of similarities here to issues faced on the front range in CO or Wasatch front in UT in terms of trails, user groups, challenges faced to habitat/wildlife. Not a perfect overlap of course, nowhere is, but that doesn't nullify the usefulness of the comparison. My bigger point being, CO with wolves added to the mix will be just fine in the long run.
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I appreciate the insight and I hope you are correct in the long term!
 
HORNhunter7 said:
No disrespect meant but I don't see how anybody that doesn't have any first hand experience of wolves in the lower 48 can offer a pretty strong opinion on what can be expected to take place in Colorado when wolves get established. But by golly that's your right!!

Have a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
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Try again. Your assumption that I don't have experience hunting in L48 states that have wolves is wrong. But by golly if you want to make erroneous assumptions, that's your right!!

Keep squawking about the sky falling.
 
We have nothing to worry about here in Colorado... I especially like the idiot who correlates "more wolves means more hunter success".
I guess I just need to go buy some poster board and make big charts to manipulate statistics to show what I want people to believe. 🤣
 
BeanMan said:
There have been suspicions that High Lonesome Ranch introduced wolves near Gadjet and myself. I believe they did.
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Pretty far fetched idea. Where would they get the wolves? A pretty large zoo lost their wolves to disease. Two years later and they still haven’t been able to get more, and they have been trying.

Likely they moved in naturally. It would be political suicide to try to transport wolves “under the table”
 
SS! said:
Pretty far fetched idea. Where would they get the wolves? A pretty large zoo lost their wolves to disease. Two years later and they still haven’t been able to get more, and they have been trying.

Likely they moved in naturally. It would be political suicide to try to transport wolves “under the table”
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Yeah, you just don't go out and buy some wolves do you? There was a rumor in my area of Montana that 24 grizzly bears were released. Got them at the grizzly bear store I guess. mtmuley
 
Far fetched? Absolutely! Impossible? Absolutely not. Trusting liberal democrats to play by the book when it comes to pretty much anything is just naive.

The rumor mill says that the first 5 released seem to be heading towards Wyoming.
 
Gadjet said:
Far fetched? Absolutely! Impossible? Absolutely not. Trusting liberal democrats to play by the book when it comes to pretty much anything is just naive.

The rumor mill says that the first 5 released seem to be heading towards Wyoming.
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Better chance of having Taylor swift knock on your door and pulling your pants off than illegal transplants
 
In my opinion Colorado has been under going a shift in regards to recreation. Hunting has and probably still is the largest money maker for the state’s economy. However it seems for the last 15-20 years it’s moving more towards other types as a statewide economy builder. Mountain bikes are a huge revenue for western Colorado. Now I realize that isn’t necessarily money going directly to the state. And I too enjoy mountain biking (although I’m not very good). But I see lots of new trails being cut in and fair bit of infrastructure. I don’t disagree with it. But what has the state done to actually improve hunting? Wolves aren’t going to improve things, the later date deer seasons aren’t going to help, the proposed ban on lion hunting with dogs isn’t going to help. Yeah the sky may not be falling yet. But I have yet to really see any positives happen for hunting in our state. And what I have brought up are just the observable shifts, that I myself have seen. Others may disagree and that’s ok. But I truly believe the long term plan for Colorado is to phase out the hunting culture.
 
Was hunting in my usual elk spot this year. Laying in bed trying to dose off for the night and heard the distinct howl of a wolf up above camp. Thought my ears were playing tricks on me until I saw the tracks up the trail in the snow the next morning right over the top of my tracks from night before.

I attempted to call Colorado to see if they would come pick up their dogs but I was unsuccessful. I hope those poor animals don’t starve to death before they get lead poisoning. This is irresponsible of Colorado to not take care of their wandering domestic animals.
 
BLooDTRaCKeR said:
Was hunting in my usual elk spot this year. Laying in bed trying to dose off for the night and heard the distinct howl of a wolf up above camp. Thought my ears were playing tricks on me until I saw the tracks up the trail in the snow the next morning right over the top of my tracks from night before.

I attempted to call Colorado to see if they would come pick up their dogs but I was unsuccessful. I hope those poor animals don’t starve to death before they get lead poisoning. This is irresponsible of Colorado to not take care of their wandering domestic animals.
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Huh? mtmuley
 
johnnycake said:
Try again. Your assumption that I don't have experience hunting in L48 states that have wolves is wrong. But by golly if you want to make erroneous assumptions, that's your right!!

Keep squawking about the sky falling.
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I must have overlooked any comments and knowledge you had in living and hunting in some lower 48 states that had a viable wolf population. All I saw was comments on Europe and Alaska.

What states with wolves did you live in and how long did you live there? I'm assuming long enough to be able to have good reasoning for the conclusions you've drawn. If this is true I'm willing to listen to some sound reasoning on your findings.

In contrast if you just hunted a few times as a non resident in states that have wolves there's really no more to be said.
 
mtmuley said:
Yeah, you just don't go out and buy some wolves do you? There was a rumor in my area of Montana that 24 grizzly bears were released. Got them at the grizzly bear store I guess. mtmuley
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Yes you can buy/get them. Colorado got there's from the wolf store in Oregon. Now Colorado has ten fine wolf specimens to help them manage big game. Once they outlaw hound hunting with cougars which they're in the process of trying to do they will have cougars to help control the big game population too.

Wyoming , Idaho and even our beloved MFWP's knew enough not to get involved with helping established wolf's in Colorado as each state refused to provide them with wolfs.
 
HORNhunter7 said:
I must have overlooked any comments and knowledge you had in living and hunting in some lower 48 states that had a viable wolf population. All I saw was comments on Europe and Alaska.

What states with wolves did you live in and how long did you live there? I'm assuming long enough to be able to have good reasoning for the conclusions you've drawn. If this is true I'm willing to listen to some sound reasoning on your findings.

In contrast if you just hunted a few times as a non resident in states that have wolves there's really no more to be said.
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Keep moving those goal posts buddy. You started at "how anybody that doesn't have any first hand experience of wolves in the lower 48" which I do (hunting experience even!)
 
johnnycake said:
Keep moving those goal posts buddy. You started at "how anybody that doesn't have any first hand experience of wolves in the lower 48" which I do (hunting experience even!)
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I'm listening. How long and what states did you live in to draw your educated, unbiased conclusions and what were your findings?
 
HORNhunter7 said:
I'm listening. How long and what states did you live in to draw your educated, unbiased conclusions and what were your findings?
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I have first hand experience hunting as a NR in ID, MT, and WY from the 90s-2015. Plenty of second and third hand experience from family as Rs and NRs in those states, as well as WA and OR. But you want to move the goal posts to first hand resident experience then that's your prerogative by golly! First hand resident experience in states with wolves, mine is limited to AK. But I'll definitely take the data and studies from biologists over the reckonin of Jim Bob McGee. Wolves aren't the big game hunting apocalypse that hunters have been biching about for decades. CO is gonna be just fine.
 
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HORNhunter7 said:
Wyoming , Idaho and even our beloved MFWP's knew enough not to get involved with helping established wolf's in Colorado as each state refused to provide them with wolfs.
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would absolutely love a quotes or linked source to such info

Is wolf experience hearing a howl or finding a track?
 
HORNhunter7 said:
Yes you can buy/get them. Colorado got there's from the wolf store in Oregon. Now Colorado has ten fine wolf specimens to help them manage big game. Once they outlaw hound hunting with cougars which they're in the process of trying to do they will have cougars to help control the big game population too.

Wyoming , Idaho and even our beloved MFWP's knew enough not to get involved with helping established wolf's in Colorado as each state refused to provide them with wolfs.
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A private entity like a ranch can not buy wolves. Funny. mtmuley
 
johnnycake said:
I have first hand experience hunting as a NR in ID, MT, and WY from the 90s-2015. Plenty of second and third hand experience from family has Rs and NRs in those states, as well as WA and OR. But you want to move the goal posts to first hand resident experience then that's your prerogative by golly! First hand resident experience in states with wolves mine is limited to AK. But I'll definitely take the data and studies from biologists over the reckonin of Jim Bob McGee. Wolves aren't the big game hunting apocalypse that hunters have been biching about for decades. CO is gonna be just fine.
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Thanks for answering. I'm glad you've had experience as a N.R. hunter in three wolf states and second and third hand experience's from family. Those things mean something.

However I have lived for twenty years within a few miles of the Idaho / Montana border. Some on the Idaho side but mostly on the Montana side. Basically Northern Idaho (Panhandle) and Western Montana. I bought a life time license when living in Idaho so I hunt both states some.

There were no known wolf packs in either state when I moved here so I've seen the before and after effect wolves have had in both states. I had a job that I basically worked 14 days a month plus vacation so I spent nearly all of my time in the woods. I'm now retired and spend even more time afield. I have friends that are in their 40's, 50's and 60's who grew up here and are just as avid an outdoorsman as I am. The change we have all seen here in the hunting environment when it comes to big game numbers (especially moose and elk ) is nothing short of devastating.
Most of us are researching places further east in Montana to do our hunting in the future.

I know the wolfs are not solely to blame here for the severe decline in Big Game numbers but they are and will continue to be the largest factor on the west side of the state.

I suspect your friends and relatives live somewhere other than Western Montana if they are giving you good hunting reports.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on what impact the wolves will have on Colorado. You think it will be minimal. I think it could be disastrous. You think wolves are not the big game apocalypse that hunters say they are and I think they are, at least where I live. You go by what the biologist report says I go by what I and my other Jim Bob McGee friends see in the field.

I have a very good friend who moved here from living in Alaska
for about 20 years. He's actually my next door neighbor. He like you loved everything about it. Including seeing and hearing the wolves.

We've had some pretty good discussions about wolf impacts on Big game both here and Alaska. His opinion is mostly like yours but after hunting nearly every day of a six week Montana season for three years now and not even laying eyes on a legal bull but seeing wolf tracks regularly each time he hunts in snow he's rethinking things some. He's now seeing first hand some differences between here and Alaska when it comes to wolves and their affect on Big game numbers. We still disagree some but we're very good friends who both have a passion for hunting.

Time will tell what the after wolf affects will be in Colorado. I hope your right and I'm wrong.

Some people are now promoting studies/charts that wolves actually help increase game numbers and success rates. Maybe we can discuss that sometime.

Have a Merry Christmas up there in Alaska.



















I
 
HORNhunter7 said:
Thanks for answering. I'm glad you've had experience as a N.R. hunter in three wolf states and second and third hand experience's from family. Those things mean something.

However I have lived for twenty years within a few miles of the Idaho / Montana border. Some on the Idaho side but mostly on the Montana side. Basically Northern Idaho (Panhandle) and Western Montana. I bought a life time license when living in Idaho so I hunt both states some.

There were no known wolf packs in either state when I moved here so I've seen the before and after effect wolves have had in both states. I had a job that I basically worked 14 days a month plus vacation so I spent nearly all of my time in the woods. I'm now retired and spend even more time afield. I have friends that are in their 40's, 50's and 60's who grew up here and are just as avid an outdoorsman as I am. The change we have all seen here in the hunting environment when it comes to big game numbers (especially moose and elk ) is nothing short of devastating.
Most of us are researching places further east in Montana to do our hunting in the future.

I know the wolfs are not solely to blame here for the severe decline in Big Game numbers but they are and will continue to be the largest factor on the west side of the state.

I suspect your friends and relatives live somewhere other than Western Montana if they are giving you good hunting reports.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on what impact the wolves will have on Colorado. You think it will be minimal. I think it could be disastrous. You think wolves are not the big game apocalypse that hunters say they are and I think they are, at least where I live. You go by what the biologist report says I go by what I and my other Jim Bob McGee friends see in the field.

I have a very good friend who moved here from living in Alaska
for about 20 years. He's actually my next door neighbor. He like you loved everything about it. Including seeing and hearing the wolves.

We've had some pretty good discussions about wolf impacts on Big game both here and Alaska. His opinion is mostly like yours but after hunting nearly every day of a six week Montana season for three years now and not even laying eyes on a legal bull but seeing wolf tracks regularly each time he hunts in snow he's rethinking things some. He's now seeing first hand some differences between here and Alaska when it comes to wolves and their affect on Big game numbers. We still disagree some but we're very good friends who both have a passion for hunting.

Time will tell what the after wolf affects will be in Colorado. I hope your right and I'm wrong.

Some people are now promoting studies/charts that wolves actually help increase game numbers and success rates. Maybe we can discuss that sometime.

Have a Merry Christmas up there in Alaska.



















I
Click to expand...
Sounds like you know people who suck at hunting …
 
And also much
HORNhunter7 said:
Thanks for answering. I'm glad you've had experience as a N.R. hunter in three wolf states and second and third hand experience's from family. Those things mean something.

However I have lived for twenty years within a few miles of the Idaho / Montana border. Some on the Idaho side but mostly on the Montana side. Basically Northern Idaho (Panhandle) and Western Montana. I bought a life time license when living in Idaho so I hunt both states some.

There were no known wolf packs in either state when I moved here so I've seen the before and after effect wolves have had in both states. I had a job that I basically worked 14 days a month plus vacation so I spent nearly all of my time in the woods. I'm now retired and spend even more time afield. I have friends that are in their 40's, 50's and 60's who grew up here and are just as avid an outdoorsman as I am. The change we have all seen here in the hunting environment when it comes to big game numbers (especially moose and elk ) is nothing short of devastating.
Most of us are researching places further east in Montana to do our hunting in the future.

I know the wolfs are not solely to blame here for the severe decline in Big Game numbers but they are and will continue to be the largest factor on the west side of the state.

I suspect your friends and relatives live somewhere other than Western Montana if they are giving you good hunting reports.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on what impact the wolves will have on Colorado. You think it will be minimal. I think it could be disastrous. You think wolves are not the big game apocalypse that hunters say they are and I think they are, at least where I live. You go by what the biologist report says I go by what I and my other Jim Bob McGee friends see in the field.

I have a very good friend who moved here from living in Alaska
for about 20 years. He's actually my next door neighbor. He like you loved everything about it. Including seeing and hearing the wolves.

We've had some pretty good discussions about wolf impacts on Big game both here and Alaska. His opinion is mostly like yours but after hunting nearly every day of a six week Montana season for three years now and not even laying eyes on a legal bull but seeing wolf tracks regularly each time he hunts in snow he's rethinking things some. He's now seeing first hand some differences between here and Alaska when it comes to wolves and their affect on Big game numbers. We still disagree some but we're very good friends who both have a passion for hunting.

Time will tell what the after wolf affects will be in Colorado. I hope your right and I'm wrong.

Some people are now promoting studies/charts that wolves actually help increase game numbers and success rates. Maybe we can discuss that sometime.

Have a Merry Christmas up there in Alaska.



















I
Click to expand...
also much of your statements are not fact in regards to wolves in the states
 
Last edited:
HORNhunter7 said:
Thanks for answering. I'm glad you've had experience as a N.R. hunter in three wolf states and second and third hand experience's from family. Those things mean something.

However I have lived for twenty years within a few miles of the Idaho / Montana border. Some on the Idaho side but mostly on the Montana side. Basically Northern Idaho (Panhandle) and Western Montana. I bought a life time license when living in Idaho so I hunt both states some.

There were no known wolf packs in either state when I moved here so I've seen the before and after effect wolves have had in both states. I had a job that I basically worked 14 days a month plus vacation so I spent nearly all of my time in the woods. I'm now retired and spend even more time afield. I have friends that are in their 40's, 50's and 60's who grew up here and are just as avid an outdoorsman as I am. The change we have all seen here in the hunting environment when it comes to big game numbers (especially moose and elk ) is nothing short of devastating.
Most of us are researching places further east in Montana to do our hunting in the future.

I know the wolfs are not solely to blame here for the severe decline in Big Game numbers but they are and will continue to be the largest factor on the west side of the state.

I suspect your friends and relatives live somewhere other than Western Montana if they are giving you good hunting reports.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on what impact the wolves will have on Colorado. You think it will be minimal. I think it could be disastrous. You think wolves are not the big game apocalypse that hunters say they are and I think they are, at least where I live. You go by what the biologist report says I go by what I and my other Jim Bob McGee friends see in the field.

I have a very good friend who moved here from living in Alaska
for about 20 years. He's actually my next door neighbor. He like you loved everything about it. Including seeing and hearing the wolves.

We've had some pretty good discussions about wolf impacts on Big game both here and Alaska. His opinion is mostly like yours but after hunting nearly every day of a six week Montana season for three years now and not even laying eyes on a legal bull but seeing wolf tracks regularly each time he hunts in snow he's rethinking things some. He's now seeing first hand some differences between here and Alaska when it comes to wolves and their affect on Big game numbers. We still disagree some but we're very good friends who both have a passion for hunting.

Time will tell what the after wolf affects will be in Colorado. I hope your right and I'm wrong.

Some people are now promoting studies/charts that wolves actually help increase game numbers and success rates. Maybe we can discuss that sometime.

Have a Merry Christmas up there in Alaska.



















I
Click to expand...
Do you listen to bill burr too?
 
HORNhunter7 said:
Thanks for answering. I'm glad you've had experience as a N.R. hunter in three wolf states and second and third hand experience's from family. Those things mean something.

However I have lived for twenty years within a few miles of the Idaho / Montana border. Some on the Idaho side but mostly on the Montana side. Basically Northern Idaho (Panhandle) and Western Montana. I bought a life time license when living in Idaho so I hunt both states some.

There were no known wolf packs in either state when I moved here so I've seen the before and after effect wolves have had in both states. I had a job that I basically worked 14 days a month plus vacation so I spent nearly all of my time in the woods. I'm now retired and spend even more time afield. I have friends that are in their 40's, 50's and 60's who grew up here and are just as avid an outdoorsman as I am. The change we have all seen here in the hunting environment when it comes to big game numbers (especially moose and elk ) is nothing short of devastating.
Most of us are researching places further east in Montana to do our hunting in the future.

I know the wolfs are not solely to blame here for the severe decline in Big Game numbers but they are and will continue to be the largest factor on the west side of the state.

I suspect your friends and relatives live somewhere other than Western Montana if they are giving you good hunting reports.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on what impact the wolves will have on Colorado. You think it will be minimal. I think it could be disastrous. You think wolves are not the big game apocalypse that hunters say they are and I think they are, at least where I live. You go by what the biologist report says I go by what I and my other Jim Bob McGee friends see in the field.

I have a very good friend who moved here from living in Alaska
for about 20 years. He's actually my next door neighbor. He like you loved everything about it. Including seeing and hearing the wolves.

We've had some pretty good discussions about wolf impacts on Big game both here and Alaska. His opinion is mostly like yours but after hunting nearly every day of a six week Montana season for three years now and not even laying eyes on a legal bull but seeing wolf tracks regularly each time he hunts in snow he's rethinking things some. He's now seeing first hand some differences between here and Alaska when it comes to wolves and their affect on Big game numbers. We still disagree some but we're very good friends who both have a passion for hunting.

Time will tell what the after wolf affects will be in Colorado. I hope your right and I'm wrong.

Some people are now promoting studies/charts that wolves actually help increase game numbers and success rates. Maybe we can discuss that sometime.

Have a Merry Christmas up there in Alaska.



















I
Click to expand...
😂😂😂😂
 
Grouse Legs said:
Whats not facts?
Click to expand...
“
However I have lived for twenty years within a few miles of the Idaho / Montana border. Some on the Idaho side but mostly on the Montana side. Basically Northern Idaho (Panhandle) and Western Montana. I bought a life time license when living in Idaho so I hunt both states some.

There were no known wolf packs in either state when I moved here so I've seen the before and after effect wolves have had in both states”- horn
 
What a bunch of whiners! Just got my third elk here in western Wyoming where we have had wolves for decades. The wolves ate so many elk that we can only shoot 3 per year now. The elk population has more than doubled in every area I hunt. I love the wolves. Love hearing them, seeing them and hunting them. I just wish we didn’t have to subsidize the welfare ranchers when they lose cattle/sheep on public land. Private land yes but on public land it should be “at your own risk”. Get all these welfare grazers off our public land and we’ll have enough ungulates for hunters and predators.
 
Pinlard said:
What a bunch of whiners! Just got my third elk here in western Wyoming where we have had wolves for decades. The wolves ate so many elk that we can only shoot 3 per year now. The elk population has more than doubled in every area I hunt. I love the wolves. Love hearing them, seeing them and hunting them. I just wish we didn’t have to subsidize the welfare ranchers when they lose cattle/sheep on public land. Private land yes but on public land it should be “at your own risk”. Get all these welfare grazers off our public land and we’ll have enough ungulates for hunters and predators.
Click to expand...
Clearly you must be mistaken and delusional. It's just not possible to have good big game hunting once wolves are on the landscape!
 
On a personal level I don't understand the fascination with wolves. I've never seen a wolf in the wild but I've seen plenty of dogs running around the neighborhood. My heart doesn't skip a beat when I do. Was there something missing from my childhood? I didn't have any teachers with posters of wolf pups hanging in the classroom either. Maybe that's it.

If I ever see a wolf in the wild, I think my reaction will be the same as when I see aphids in my garden.
 
antlerradar said:
If you want some hard numbers look at the stats form the Gallatin check station pre wolf and now.
Click to expand...
Unit 314. Roughly half the deer harvest numbers from what I saw 2004-2022 and relatively little fluctuations in the 200’s total harvest of mule deer.
Elk numbers however in those year vary greatly but the harvest numbers were close to the same in 2004 as they were last year
 
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​

​

More Wolves = Fewer Elk = Yellowstone Aspen Comeback​


I found out something I never knew about and it's a plus to having fewer elk on the the landscape. It's also something we should all be able to agree on.

It sounds like a huge reduction in elk numbers at first but should/could be a huge plus for Colorado if it's true as many of their mountains are filled with Aspens. Although it's a five year old article I'd assume it would still apply in today's landscape.

Aspen trees are beautiful in the Fall. I wish we had more of them here in Western Montana as they too should be excelling.






Kevin Reichard September 4, 2018 Issues, News, Wolves







It’s being hailed as a success in restoring balance to the area: the reintroduction of wolves has lessened the elk population — which in turn is fueling a Yellowstone aspen comeback.
Now, when it comes to the sexy and notable in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, aspen never makes the list of attractions cited by tourists as they plan their annual trips. But on the scientific front, a Yellowstone aspen comeback has been on the wish list for many close observers. Elk, in particular, are hard on aspen, and when there’s an overpopulation of elk, there’s also stress on the aspen numbers. Aspen stands are part of the diversity of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, acting as a contrast to conifer forests. But with the perceived overpopulation of elk after wolves were eliminated from the region, aspen stands became less prevalent after serving as elk food. Aspen is the dominant leafy tree at higher altitudes of the Rocky Mountain West, but in Yellowstone the aspen population declined for decades from 4-6 percent of coverage in its natural area (the north range) during the 1940s and down to less than 1 percent in 2010.

But with the reintroduction of wolves, the elk population has gone down significantly — from almost 20,000 in 1995 to around 7,500 in the latest estimates — and during that time scientists have documented a Yellowstone aspen comeback. That’s part of a larger picture of restoring balance to the ecosystem.
 
Yup... Colorado is EXACTLY like the GYE... we have the same human population as Wyoming and Montana. Colorado has a huge National Park with no hunting allowed that takes up the entire portion of the state that they are letting the wolves go in. Even the flora makeup is exactly the same. 🤯
 
montezumarchery said:
Yup... Colorado is EXACTLY like the GYE... we have the same human population as Wyoming and Montana. Colorado has a huge National Park with no hunting allowed that takes up the entire portion of the state that they are letting the wolves go in. Even the flora makeup is exactly the same. 🤯
Click to expand...
giphy (10).gif
 
eelgrass said:
On a personal level I don't understand the fascination with wolves. I've never seen a wolf in the wild but I've seen plenty of dogs running around the neighborhood. My heart doesn't skip a beat when I do. Was there something missing from my childhood? I didn't have any teachers with posters of wolf pups hanging in the classroom either. Maybe that's it.

If I ever see a wolf in the wild, I think my reaction will be the same as when I see aphids in my garden.
Click to expand...
Stop with the common sense eel......it is unrealistic.....
 
eelgrass said:
On a personal level I don't understand the fascination with wolves. I've never seen a wolf in the wild but I've seen plenty of dogs running around the neighborhood. My heart doesn't skip a beat when I do. Was there something missing from my childhood? I didn't have any teachers with posters of wolf pups hanging in the classroom either. Maybe that's it.

If I ever see a wolf in the wild, I think my reaction will be the same as when I see aphids in my garden.
Click to expand...
There’s a lot you, I or everyone else doesn’t understand. That doesn’t mean we should eradicate something because we don’t understand it.

Wolves to mean mean wild places. Wolves are not like coyotes that will move and stay into urban places. Them and grizzly bears are the the apex predators. Even heavily hunted they are hard to kill. Hard not to have respect for them. To compare domestic dogs to wolves shows your inexperience with the subject. Nothing wrong with that. The anti wolf rhetoric is mostly people like you, inexperienced on the topic.

Are wolves right for Colorado? I say it will probably work. Will some cows and sheep die along the way? Of course. Maybe now the ranchers will fixate on wolves instead of elk as their problem.

Sometimes it’s better just to focus on the positives 🤙
 
SS! said:
There’s a lot you, I or everyone else doesn’t understand. That doesn’t mean we should eradicate something because we don’t understand it.

Wolves to mean mean wild places. Wolves are not like coyotes that will move and stay into urban places. Them and grizzly bears are the the apex predators. Even heavily hunted they are hard to kill. Hard not to have respect for them. To compare domestic dogs to wolves shows your inexperience with the subject. Nothing wrong with that. The anti wolf rhetoric is mostly people like you, inexperienced on the topic.

Are wolves right for Colorado? I say it will probably work. Will some cows and sheep die along the way? Of course. Maybe now the ranchers will fixate on wolves instead of elk as their problem.

Sometimes it’s better just to focus on the positives 🤙
Click to expand...
The term apex predator is a man made term based on what they want to believe. If there really is an apex predator it's microscopic in size and has the capacity to adapt, multiply, and thrive. Cemetaries and hospitals are full of their victims.

I can't think of many things more cruel to a wolf than to dump them in human populated areas, unless the motive is to create division and chaos.
 
eelgrass said:
The term apex predator is a man made term based on what they want to believe. If there really is an apex predator it's microscopic in size and has the capacity to adapt, multiply, and thrive. Cemetaries and hospitals are full of their victims.

I can't think of many things more cruel to a wolf than to dump them in human populated areas, unless the motive is to create division and chaos.
Click to expand...
all terms are man made 🤷‍♂️

Luckily they didn’t drop them in the city. I agree they should be in the wild which is where they dropped them.

Merry Christmas Eelgrass!
 
eelgrass said:
I can't think of many things more cruel to a wolf than to dump them in human populated areas, unless the motive is to create division and chaos.
Click to expand...
Strychnine, compound 1080, and M44 gun traps come to mind pretty quick. Given the choice between living in human populated areas and those, it's probably a safe bet that wolves would choose to live.
 
SS! said:
There’s a lot you, I or everyone else doesn’t understand. That doesn’t mean we should eradicate something because we don’t understand it.

Wolves to mean mean wild places. Wolves are not like coyotes that will move and stay into urban places. Them and grizzly bears are the the apex predators. Even heavily hunted they are hard to kill. Hard not to have respect for them. To compare domestic dogs to wolves shows your inexperience with the subject. Nothing wrong with that. The anti wolf rhetoric is mostly people like you, inexperienced on the topic.

Are wolves right for Colorado? I say it will probably work. Will some cows and sheep die along the way? Of course. Maybe now the ranchers will fixate on wolves instead of elk as their problem.

Sometimes it’s better just to focus on the positives 🤙
Click to expand...
Your response to eelgrass is example of your lack of knowledge of people and what is being actually being said by the one making a post
 
SS! said:
I'm laughing at the hearsay school yard gossip you're posting.

My only hope is the wolves spread into UT. Give them another predator to blame for their low deer numbers.

Just think how many fat pumpkins will blame wolves next fall for the reason why they didn't kill an elk :D
Click to expand...


Wolves cant spread to Utah. We have The Don $350k a year to build us a forcefield.

We are safe
 
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I don't have an issue with wolves. The issue is the management, or lack there of. The agreements that went with original reintroduction were violated by the pro wolf groups. The shareholders came to them begrudgingly, and, they were stomped on.

No one for a sec believes there will ever be a wolf hunt in Colorado. So they know going in the populations will outrun the resources.

If wolf(and grizzly) crowd operated in good faith, wolves would already be returned to the entire West. That crowd is the impediment to their own goals.


And frankly they've destroyed the ESA, which used to do good work, but now is just lawfare disguised as science
 
hossblur said:
I don't have an issue with wolves. The issue is the management, or lack there of. The agreements that went with original reintroduction were violated by the pro wolf groups. The shareholders came to them begrudgingly, and, they were stomped on.

No one for a sec believes there will ever be a wolf hunt in Colorado. So they know going in the populations will outrun the resources.

If wolf(and grizzly) crowd operated in good faith, wolves would already be returned to the entire West. That crowd is the impediment to their own goals.


And frankly they've destroyed the ESA, which used to do good work, but now is just lawfare disguised as science
Click to expand...
Heard the same regarding the reintroduction in WY MT and ID. And look at it now, management and hunting seasons!

Hunters shouldn’t have sole rights to what roams the public lands. And there was plenty of time where hunting based organizations not only in CO but other states could have dumped money in to fight it. But they didn’t.

$FW could have likely put enough out there to sway it the other way. But what better way to get new membership once that first wolf crosses into Utah. See conspiracy theories work both ways 😂
 

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